Friday, June 15, 2012

ASA rules that God can heal



But the claim can only be made on a website; not on printed leaflets.

Yes, that’s the latest ex cathedra ruling of the omnipotent Advertising Standards Authority.

A bit of background:

A Christian group in Bath which goes by the name of HOTS (Healing on the Streets) was banned in February by the ASA from claiming that the Creator of the Universe can heal. As in all such cases, Manichaeism prevailed and the sheep divided from goats: the faithful were incensed, claiming a fundamental attack on religious liberty and freedom of expression, while the secular-humanist-atheists were insisting on the strict application of the scientific method in accordance with the principles of logical positivism (ie, there’s no proof).

As a result of a complaint (yes, one, singular), the ASA investigated with regulatory zeal the outrageous claim that God could heal, and determined after a few coffees that He is just another witchdoctor offering nothing but tinctures of bogus homeopathic potions and ineffectual lotions. God cannot heal, they concluded: the absurd claims of HOTS were fraudulent. The group was told to go and sin no more print no more leaflets and could never again make such absurd claims upon their website.

His Grace will not go into the theological evangelical charismatic debates about which apostolic gifts ceased when and whether or not God still irrupts into human history as He was wont. The issue here is the ASA, to which His Grace is not particularly well disposed (declaration of interest).

The ‘Authority’ has now amended its original judgment, which obviously wasn’t ex cathedra, and issued another one, which is (moreso).

HOTS are now free to proclaim on their website with impunity that God can heal, but they still may not do so upon printed leaflets, for websites (the ASA has determined) lie outside their jurisdiction.

Now then, His Grace is mightily puzzled by this, for reasons which one or two of his regular readers might understand (clue: here, here, here and here).

If His Grace’s blog isn’t a website, he is at a loss to know what it is. Why is it permissible for a Christian to advertise the healing power of God upon a website with impunity, while the promotion of the traditional and legal form of marriage on a website falls under the quasi-judicial powers appropriated by the ASA?

If God’s healing powers are determined to belong to the realm of causes and ideas, and so outside the jurisdiction of the ASA, in what sense and by what reasoning do they assume the authority to pontificate upon marriage, which is an honourable estate, instituted of God in the time of man's innocency, signifying unto us the mystical union that is betwixt Christ and his Church?

It couldn’t have anything to do with the fact that ASA Chairman Lord Smith (with his shifting declarations of interest) is a tad more interested in promoting gay marriage than he is in trivial issues like preternatural healing, could it?

If not, could he please explain why the HOTS website is decreed to lie beyond the competence of the ASA, while His Grace’s website is subject to their bullying, harassment and summary judgment?

76 Comments:

Blogger Flossie said...

His Grace has them bang to rights (again). The whole rotten edifice needs disbanding - gay activists masquerading as public servants.

15 June 2012 at 10:33  
Blogger Flossie said...

Er - can one disband an edifice? Well, you know what I mean!

15 June 2012 at 10:34  
Blogger Gerard Stubbert said...

Your Grace is labouriing under the misapprehension that they have the first clue what they are doing. The Preface to the Code they are supposed to be enforcing clearly states:

Editorial content is specifically excluded from the Code....

A leaflet being handed out which is not selling something is plainly "editorial content" rather than advertisement.

15 June 2012 at 10:37  
Blogger Unknown said...

I would presume that they cannot adjudicate on the matter of the HOTS website because the content on there is not an advert per se, whereas in the case of Your Grace, the content on your website was an advertisement by a 3rd party.

15 June 2012 at 11:00  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr/Miss/Mrs/Ms Unknown,

The distinction falls because HOTS leaflets are still banned. The ASA cannot possibly know whether His Grace is involved with C4M, and so determine whether they constitute a 'third party'.

15 June 2012 at 11:12  
Blogger Chris Hall said...

Banned? Has anyone determined whether the ASA have any statutory powers? As far as I can see they have none and can be ignored with impunity.

15 June 2012 at 11:29  
Blogger John Thomas said...

Eventually, the Church will find ways of doing things, and promoting things - proclaiming the Gospel - that the Establishmebnt and the law cannot touch (Yes, Gerard Stubbert, they do know exactly what they are doing) - it's called 'going underground'. Sooner the better!

15 June 2012 at 11:35  
Blogger bluedog said...

A further example of culturally insensitive oppression by a bogus 'authority', Your Grace.

Your communicant hopes that HOTS will completely ignore this diktat from Lord Smith of Finsbury's spartacists. At some point the ASA's bluff needs to be called. It would seem that HOTS are well placed to offer the Pressdram defence and continue to hand out any leaflet they may chose.

15 June 2012 at 11:37  
Blogger Jon said...

Cranmer, I think Unknown probably has it right. The leaflets are advertising, by their nature. Their website is "content". It wasn't the content of your website that the ASA took issue with, it was the advert you served alongside.

Having said that, I think the ASA could usefully investigate the adverts in the back of newspapers offering "psychic services" "horoscopes" etc. If scientific proof of efficacy is now demanded for such things, I look forward to a bonfire of the absurdities.

Either way - the uncertainty as to their mandate and their unfortunate tendency towards inconsistency is much more damaging to commerce than your allegations of Chris Smith's conflict of interest, even if they were at all relevant. Should you persist with this, I should expect you to insist that the "Lords Spiritual" withdraw from discussions of healthcare since they believe that virgin birth and resurrection is possible!

15 June 2012 at 11:45  
Blogger Albert said...

God cannot heal, they concluded: the absurd claims of HOTS were fraudulent.

It's the usual dim-witted secularism. Underneath all this is the assumption that the only way God works is through miracles.

Secularists who don't really know what the word "God" names, what it is to believe that God acts, heals or creates, really ought to stop needlessly embarrassing themselves and undermining everyone else's freedom.

15 June 2012 at 11:58  
Blogger Stuart Cunliffe said...

I just want to stick in my twopennorth and say from personal experience that God can heal, and I am indescribably grateful for His love, His care and His provision.

15 June 2012 at 12:15  
Blogger Corrigan1 said...

Can't somebody claim they're "hurt and offended" by the ASA? Surely a single complaint would be enough for them to ban themselves...

15 June 2012 at 12:28  
Blogger Atlas Shrugged said...

The power of the goodness of God, our creator.

As I have often stated, our material world has long since been controlled by the forces of Evil.

Which of course begs the question. If this is so, then how is it that the human race in general and individual human beings in particular survived, indeed in some cases flourished, thus far?

The answer.

The power of the goodness of God, our creator.

I have been aware for some time now that someone or something somewhere is looking after me.

The God of Love and Mercy undoubtedly dwells amongst us, however IMO it is better we no longer take this situation so much for granted.

15 June 2012 at 12:39  
Blogger graham wood said...

"Banned" ! Chris Hall is right to register incredulity. It may well be asked what legal right has the ASA to "ban" anything? It may raise its objections and then resort to 'due process' - but ban?
Indeed the ASA can safely be ignored with impunity.

To Jon & 'Unknown'. The distinction between the content of a web site and a leaflet is zilch for the "content" of both is precisely the same, only the medium differs. Stop splitting hairs.
A few of us should go ahead and order a nice wad of HOTS leaflets.

15 June 2012 at 13:09  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

OK let's stipulate a few things.

1. God can heal, as the man born blind can still attest. Indeed, He can raise from the dead, and that is the Hope of every Christian. Which is easier? To heal or raise form the dead?

2. Supernatural healing is a miracle and miracles are not equally distributed across time. They occur for a time and for a reason.

3. God does not need to perform miracles to work His will. His providence extends over the natural as well as the supernatural; the ordinary as well as the extra-ordinary.

Having said that ...

By perusing their website, I wasn't able to conclusively prove to myself that these are faith-healing Pentacostals, but I suspect that is the case. I which case (a la Bennie Hinn) they are selling false hope and pretending to heal people. Have you ever heard of Peter Popoff? Have you seen Bennie Hinn in action? They are frauds selling the Gospel for money. Pentacostal faith healers are no different. They trade in non-specific illnesses and depend upon the emotion of the moment. If they can't heal you, they blame your lack of faith. It's a vicious despicable practice.

It shouldn't be left to the ASA to expose this practice for what it is. What the ASA even has to do with it I don't understand. Rather the Church should be condemning this practice of fraudulent faith-healing. Loudly and forcefully. There is a reason these people do not close hospitals, and it ain't for lack of faith.

carl

15 June 2012 at 13:14  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

Note to ASA for future reference.

When dealing with nutters please ignore, no one takes then seriously and you will only get into arguments with them and others with axes to grind.

15 June 2012 at 13:31  
Blogger Jim McLean said...

I think Jon at 15 June 2012 11:45 has it spot on. Although if they start banning the ads at the back of the Metro and Standard where will I ever be able to find me a wife or have the potential to earn £0000000's ?

15 June 2012 at 13:47  
Blogger Nick said...

The ASA clearly has a "gay" agenda (not surprising considering the directors). The agenda is not just heterophobic, it's theophobic too - it wants to destroy all vestiges of religious faith in this country, much lke the Soviets tried to (unsuccessfully too - Russia now has a thriving Christian Church). It is militant atheism gone mad - not just a difference of opinion but a desire to destroy. none of us should take this lightly

15 June 2012 at 14:45  
Blogger Albert said...

Tory boy,

No objection on the grounds of freedom of speech, then?

15 June 2012 at 16:01  
Blogger Berserker said...

Does Mr Dawkins believe that God is a repeat offender then the ASA can forward the matter on to OFT and they have the power to fine and sanction. God can even have the services of The Independent Reviewer who is well qualified for this job having worked in the Department for Culture and Media Studies and the European Commission. So that's alright then.

So if I print some leaflets extolling the philosophy of say, Subjective Idealism and that every citizen must realise that there is no material world but that we perceive the world as ideas in the mind, am I misleading the religious and the naturalists, not to mention old Dawky.

Somewhere someone will take umbrage if I say that cats are really reincarnated dead comedians. This is my opinion.

Do I then get the visit from The Great Independent Reviewer at Artillery House or put my trust in 'Him' upstairs?

15 June 2012 at 16:18  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
Chris Hall and Graham Wood have it about right.
After all our investigations of the terms of reference of ASA, it was clear that they had no power to order anything and Promotions such as HOTS would have to be proceeded against by the Board of Trade and this would only happen after persistent breaches of ASA rules.

15 June 2012 at 17:17  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Carl,
I went to Bennie Hinn's church in Florida 25 years ago. There we saw a man who had to have oxygen tanks on his back to stay alive. We saw him prayed for one weekend and the next week he came back fully healed and with no tanks. This was a real miracle. I had already seen many people healed before then and over the last twenty five years.
I can vouch for the gifts of healing but as with many ministries, ego and aggrandisement interfere with the grace that they once knew.
I can't vouch for all miracle working preachers but I can vouch for the sovereign work that God performs.

15 June 2012 at 17:29  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Carl,
I went to Bennie Hinn's church in Florida 25 years ago. There we saw a man who had to have oxygen tanks on his back to stay alive. We saw him prayed for one weekend and the next week he came back fully healed and with no tanks. This was a real miracle. I had already seen many people healed before then and over the last twenty five years.
I can vouch for the gifts of healing but as with many ministries, ego and aggrandisement interfere with the grace that they once knew.
I can't vouch for all miracle working preachers but I can vouch for the sovereign work that God performs.

15 June 2012 at 17:29  
Blogger Anoneumouse said...

Healing Is Vengeance

15 June 2012 at 18:25  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Well Your Grace, we are all in a privileged position to see it in it’s embryonic form. In the years to come, you will be able to sit your young grand-archbishops on your knee and tell them you were one of the first freedom of speechers to persecuted by the Ministry of Truth. Of course the name change, and great expansion, will come later at a more convenient time.

They have investigated the Thought Crime which is to be against SSM, and found it pleasing to them to exercise their muscle. They have made their point and are temporarily satiated. They then went on to examine the potential Thought Crime of whether or not a creator exists and is able to heal. Here they baulk, for a ruling here has great consequences. First a Propaganda Office needs to be assembled, and the concept of God fully assessed. The new order may yet have use for such a being.

Having said all that, and taking on board Carl’s point, if the HOTS agenda is to charge a fee for this healing, then an investigation by ASA would be warranted. It is not the seemingly grey area it might appear to be, as we communicants all have the gift of common sense, a phrase you don’t hear too much of in these PC times.

15 June 2012 at 18:48  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

So far as I am aware, the ASA has no actual statutory authority to prevent the publication of anything.

If someone is unhappy with God for not healing them, let them sue Him for breach of any promise they can prove He made to them. I am sure the ECRH would give them a hearing too!

Ignore them!

15 June 2012 at 19:02  
Blogger Preacher said...

God Heals! get over it A.S.A.

Blessings Preacher.

15 June 2012 at 19:08  
Blogger Nick said...

One wonders how mankind has struggled through the millenia without the guiding light of the ASA.

However, they must feel some real competition from "Dorkers the font of all knowledge". They probably hope that he is too busy dissecting, or with his head up a horses arse trying to work out where he evolved from to challenge their supremacy

15 June 2012 at 19:19  
Blogger Roy said...

I dislike the way in which some preachers of the "prosperity gospel" get close to implying that you can buy a miracle, or at least rent one, by paying them tithes. It is easy to guess what Martin Luther would have thought of such sales of modern indulgences.

However, I do believe that God can heal (He would be a pretty weak sort of God if He could not) and sometimes does. I have no idea why some prayers receive a definite positive answer and others don't - but then I am not God.

The ASA has no moral authority to try and prevent claims that God can heal or to prevent people testifying to healing. Individuals who pray for the sick should not claim that they personally can heal - that would be blasphemous. But they should not let the ASA prevent them from claiming that God can heal and they should simply tell the ASA that they will obey God and not some quango that most people in the country have never heard of.

15 June 2012 at 20:48  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

There we saw a man who had to have oxygen tanks on his back to stay alive... the next week he came back fully healed and with no tanks

Tanks but no-tanks.

If he was wearing a red bobble hat it was probably Jaques Cousteau - if not, the dude was planted there to dupe the gullible including Mr Integrity. LoL - snort-chortle- tears of mirth etc.

Bennie Hinn? - more like Benny Hill by the evidence of his divorce saga - the man and his ilk are cruel shameless charlatans.

15 June 2012 at 20:52  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Your Grace your little outing with the ASA is in the Telegraph

"Opposing against gay marriage not homophobic, says advertising watchdog
Opposing gay marriage is not offensive or homophobic, the advertising watchdog has ruled.

Campaigning against gay marriage not homophobic, says advertising watchdog
Photo: Alamy
By John Bingham, Social affairs Editor
6:25AM BST 14 Jun 2012
212 Comments

Campaigning against changing the law on marriage to include same-sex couples should be allowed, the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) said.

It threw out a clutch of complaints about publicity material for the Coalition For marriage campaign amid claims that they were would offend homosexual people.

The watchdog ruled that, while not everyone would agree with the aims of the campaign, this was no grounds for claiming that they were discriminatory.

15 June 2012 at 21:13  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Here is the weblink for the full article and 212 comments so far.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9329317/Opposing-against-gay-marriage-not-homophobic-says-advertising-watchdog.html

15 June 2012 at 21:15  
Blogger Naomi King said...

It looks like the Advertising Standards Agency is the final arbiter or all matters which previously would be subject to legal determination. A very interesting turn of events, don't you think so Inspector ?

15 June 2012 at 21:18  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Mrs king. It is a blessing that ASA picked upon our Archbishop, though of course he would be happier they hadn’t to be fair to him. Otherwise we would have no idea what this Quasi Autonomous nefarious thing was all about when it came to non commercial activity. That they apparently report to no democratic institution is troubling. They are a private force beholden to no one yet they manifest themselves as a lawful arbiter...

15 June 2012 at 21:44  
Blogger bluedog said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

15 June 2012 at 21:55  
Blogger bluedog said...

Good suggestion, Mr Corrigan @ 12.28. A visit to the ASA website and complaint duly lodged, urging ASA to ban and liquidate itself.

15 June 2012 at 21:57  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Can I also recommend an article written by homosexual Andrew Pierce in the Daily Mail on Tuesday where he says, amongst many other sensible things,


"Certainly, at Westminster yesterday, Tory MPs were appalled by the Prime Minister’s perverse set of priorities.

As one senior Tory figure told me: ‘In the week we have been demanding a policy shift to kickstart economic growth. We get instead an entirely predictable row about gay marriage.

‘What sort of message does our preoccupation with fringe issues like gay marriage and Lords reform send to people who are worried about their jobs?’

The Tory Party HQ, I can disclose, has warned the Prime Minister that this issue has triggered the biggest revolt among grassroots members since Tory MPs dumped Margaret Thatcher in 1990.

Literally thousands of the party’s foot soldiers are refusing to renew their subscriptions. Some major donors have closed their cheque books.

So Tory rebels will be emboldened by this astonishing warning by the Church of England, which for once is showing clear and principled leadership, that it could be forced to abandon its traditional role of conducting weddings on behalf of the State.

Certainly, the Archbishop of Canterbury has dismissed as worthless the assurances of the Prime Minister and the Lib Dem Equalities Minister Lynne Featherstone — nicknamed ‘Featherlight’ by her despairing civil servants — that churches will not be ordered to conduct same-sex marriage ceremonies.

15 June 2012 at 21:59  
Blogger Naomi King said...

The full article is at

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2158416/I-m-gay-man-opposes-gay-marriage-Does-make-ME-bigot--Mr-Cameron.html#ixzz1xeqiGokk
and is well worth a read.

It would be funny that Ms Featherstone is known by her staff as featherlight if she wasn't so dangerous.

15 June 2012 at 22:03  
Blogger Naomi King said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

15 June 2012 at 22:12  
Blogger Naomi King said...

NOBODY in public life has the courage to speak up openly against the homosexual agenda because society has become so conditioned to accept, even embrace diversity that it is incomprehensible that anyone would dare to speak out, although secretly they don’t agree with the homosexual agenda. Maybe this is what fascism is all about, silencing criticism through political mind conditioning.

15 June 2012 at 22:13  
Blogger Naomi King said...

We have to cast down ‘every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God’!

We see how society is going downhill all around us, how laws are being used to promote evil and restrict Christian freedoms and virtue, how our politicians are rejecting the Word of God and replacing it with their own values.

We Christian need to be a voice for righteousness in our nation, speaking out against evil and injustice wherever we see it, just as the Lord leads. Get out on the streets and the meeting places, stand up for Jesus, and make sure the bad guys know that the people of God are here!

But we have to be moving in the spirit, and the place to find the mind of God is in the word of God.

If you are already believe in the Holy Bible as the word of God, then you will want to get what the Bible says to us today in our personal lives, about current events and issues out into the public square, and move into some serious warlike prayer, seeking the Father in Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit.

We Christians are a band of brothers and sisters, with Jesus as our commanding officer, supporting each other to see the banner of the King of kings exalted over the whole of society.

We Christians need to be eager to stand up openly for Jesus Christ in this apostate age.

15 June 2012 at 22:18  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

And those that are NOT cured by this Sky God? Why does this God seem fit to cure a few, where millions starve? Why? And are you not fools for following him?

15 June 2012 at 22:21  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Outside the city of Gloucester council offices, two flags fly. One is the union flag, and the other that rainbow thing. The Inspector warns gays of this. The present tolerance you are enjoying can be reversed as quickly as the homophobia of the 1970s was. But you will continue of course, your activists being very young, very gay, and very stupid...

15 June 2012 at 22:26  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Well said Inspector

Germany in the 1930s is one lesson to learn. Suddenly the economy was in free fall and people were looking around for someone to blame. Minorities were scapegoated. It is clear from history that people get very nasty when the money is tight and they look around for some group to blame/kick

Phil

15 June 2012 at 23:16  
Blogger David B said...

I haven't read all the comments, having been otherwise engaged on the previous thread.

But the ASA were bang to wrong in challenging HG's ad, and its implicit support for a position I think wrong, but respect the rights of other people to campaign for matters of opinion.

And also bang to wrong in not going for the jugular on claims which purport to be statements of fact, but which have no evidence that stands up to critical analysis to support them.

David B

15 June 2012 at 23:22  
Blogger Mark Brown said...

Pity the Brits. And pity more the agnostics who have never experienced the power of God. This story is a good example of the value of a Constitution that cannot be changed by every political wind. I thank God for the First Amendment to the US Constitution which protects freedom of speech and free exercise of religion. Without that we'd have the same Nazi/Bolshevik thought-police in the United States as appear to be common in Europe.

Mark Adams Brown
San Angelo, Texas
June 15, 2012

16 June 2012 at 06:01  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Nazi/Bolshevik thought-police

strong words Mr Brown!

16 June 2012 at 06:23  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Alpha: "And those that are NOT cured by this Sky God? Why does this God seem fit to cure a few, where millions starve? Why? And are you not fools for following him?"

The idea held by some that their god is open to be swayed by the pleas and prayers and the like of sufferers and their supporters rather indicates to me that their god is actually a profoundly evil thing.

16 June 2012 at 07:15  
Blogger Naomi King said...

From: Naomi King
Subject: Homosexual "marriage" - Some facts from the NHS
Date: 16 June 2012 07:29:17 GMT+01:00

The Archbishop of Canterbury

Dear Archbishop

May I congratulate you and thank you in God's name for your courage in standing defiant against the Tiananmen Square armoured tank of homosexuality.

Right thinking Tory's and others, will be much emboldened by the Church of England's clear and principled leadership and warnings on the perversion and damage to be caused by seeing homosexual anal sexual intercourse as equivalent to "marriage", that is currently being promulgated by our Prime Minister to an horrified people.

Tiananmen Square protests of 1989

The iconic image of "Tank Man" a lone man in front of 4 tanks, taken by Associated Press journalist Jeff Widener on Chang'an Avenue following the suppression of the protests.


Warmest regards in Christ and in His service
Naomi King (Mrs)

16 June 2012 at 07:39  
Blogger len said...

Divine healing was accomplished on the Cross of Calvary 2,000 years ago.

So it is not a case of whether God wants to heal but an accomplished fact that God HAS healed.

The application of this healing is another matter and is applied by faith through Christians.

So it is not a matter of begging God to heal(because He has already done so)it is a matter of the application of healing.So if healing is not occurring(for whatever reason) the fault is in the application not in the provision.

16 June 2012 at 08:33  
Blogger len said...

The Gospel of Jesus Christ has been attacked throughout History.

The ASA (Atheist Social Agenda?)is just one in a long line of persecutors of the Faith.

God`s word (the Gospel) will go out and no man will be able to stop it!.

16 June 2012 at 09:14  
Blogger Naomi King said...

And they served their idols (homosexuality): which were a snare unto them. Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, and shed innocent blood (abortion), even the blood of their sons and of their daughters whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan (promiscuity) : and the land was polluted with blood. Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions (fornication and adultery). Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance. And he gave them into the hand of the heathen; and they that hated them ruled over them. Their enemies also oppressed them, and they were brought into subjection Again, they are minished and brought low through oppression, affliction, and sorrow. Let his days be few; and let another take his office (from David Cameron). Let this be the reward of mine adversaries from the LORD, and of them that speak evil. Let mine adversaries be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their own confusion, as with a mantle. He poureth contempt upon princes, and causeth them to wander in the wilderness, where there is no way.
Through God we shall do valiantly (those that believe in His Holy Word): for he it is that shall tread down our enemies.

16 June 2012 at 09:59  
Blogger John M Ward said...

I do wish that the world would wake up to the meaning of "science", which means "knowledge" however incomplete or (often!) incorrect.

Science merely attempts to explain what already exists, and creates nothing in and by itself, therefore it cannot place itself above those or the One who did create the Universe.

Until and unless "science" completely explains the Universe, it has no say over and above whatever or whoever did create all of this and us – and that's an absolute (and you don't get many of those in this life!)

16 June 2012 at 11:22  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

John: "Until and unless "science" completely explains the Universe, it has no say over and above whatever or whoever did create all of this and us – and that's an absolute (and you don't get many of those in this life!)"

What are we supposed to do in the meantime? I'm not content for followers of Allah, or Zeus, or Mithras, or YHWH, or Jehovah, or Ba'al, or Vishnu, or the plethora of gods people have made up, to tell us how they want us to think of our reality. We need to make do with what we've got to hand.

16 June 2012 at 12:10  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

John M Ward

Surely the answer to your question depends on what you mean or understanding of the word 'Universe'

For instance take an astro-physical question, if 'God' made the Universe why does religion explain why s/he planned for asteroids collide? or why s/he thought it appropriate to create diseases? And then then allegedly, give humanity the intelligence (science skills) to combat those diseases where previously millions have died in agony through ignorance or recognise the existence of gravitational forces active in such a violently chaotic environment as surrounds this planet?

Doesn't sound like anything approaching intelligence or design to me.

16 June 2012 at 12:39  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

DanJ0 said ...

"What are we supposed to do in the meantime? ... We need to make do with what we've got to hand."

I dare say you do believe this.

16 June 2012 at 13:52  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dreadnaught. It is considered that without asteroids colliding, we would have no moon. And no moon means no seasons. So, not sure about you, but rather glad about it myself. As for the rest, what do you expect ? God has provided everything we need to thrive. As for diseases, he has us all on fixed term contracts, and they see that is enforced. As for dangerous areas to live, earthquakes zones, deserts, near volcanoes, well, don’t live there ! Rather obvious, what !

16 June 2012 at 13:59  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Dreadnaught

You want Heaven to be a place on earth - yet you deny there is a Creator!

16 June 2012 at 14:16  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

DoDo/Ispector - you two are the undoubted double act of out time. You believe there is a creator that's fine by me - I don't.
It's here we go round the mulberry bush time and we've been there before. Life's too short to take religion seriously - they can't all be right - unless you know better.

16 June 2012 at 14:56  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Dredge naugh

Its you who keeps banging on about the non-existance of God because the Universe seems to you so vast and so unfair.

And yes, Christians do know better than your godless confusion.

16 June 2012 at 15:15  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

DoDo
What utter rot. Try engaging with the questions/propositions for once.

16 June 2012 at 16:31  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dreadnaught: excepting for the purposes of repartee, I wouldn't bother; it just ain't worth the candle.

Besides, it just ends up polarising everything/everyone. That's what Dodo does well.

16 June 2012 at 17:21  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Dredge Naught

But it was you who wanted to end engagement with the question/proposition when you said:

"It's here we go round the mulberry bush time and we've been there before. Life's too short to take religion seriously - they can't all be right - unless you know better."

Do make up your mind.

And Oswin

I know, I knwo, you'e the kind of protestant who so likes the 'via media' where everybody agrees with everyone else. I mean, whether there is a Creator God or not is just not worth discussing, is it? Heavens, it might cause disagreement and that just wouldn't do. Too unAnglican, what!

16 June 2012 at 18:09  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

16 June 2012 at 18:52  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Oswin - repartee? with DoDo? - I've heard better repartee between farting ducks.

16 June 2012 at 19:19  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Dredgenought
You spend your spare time listening to ducks farting? How peculiar!

16 June 2012 at 21:40  
Blogger len said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

16 June 2012 at 22:49  
Blogger len said...

Ducks expelling a lot of hot air through their' propulsion ducts'seems to send them aimless around the pond......smells awful too!.

16 June 2012 at 22:50  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

little pope len
Well leave the pond stupid and stop swimming around with them!

In your eagerness to insult me you align yourself with an atheist! The enemy of my enemy is my friend? Is that what it is?

16 June 2012 at 23:13  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dodo @ 18:09 : you don't discuss anything; you're just an offensive, evil-minded bore. If all Christians were as you are, I'd embrace Islam tomorrow; and you know what I think of that lot!

17 June 2012 at 01:49  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Oswin - heaven for fend - just junk the lot of them and live a free and decent life (as I'm sure you already do)
btw - on a canal boat, I am constantly surrounded by ducks, swans and the diversity of the nature and love being part of it.

17 June 2012 at 10:46  
Blogger len said...

Dodo I 'align myself' with humanity....Just as the Lord Himself did.

17 June 2012 at 12:37  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

len

Are you really aligned with all of humanity or just those opposed to Catholicism? I mean, you join yourself so readily to anyone, convicted atheists and militant homosexuals included, when it suits your attacks against the Roman Church!

Oh, and you're not Jesus!

17 June 2012 at 17:51  
Blogger Tentacles said...

Fear not, fot it cannot be long before this mob destroys itself.

They must surely soon intefere and determine whether the Bible itself is true. They will surely find against the claims contained therein. Which, in turn, will force them to determine the Koran is a load of old tosh.

At which point, the irate little sheet heads will no doubt send them to the hell they insist does not exist.

18 June 2012 at 03:55  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dreadnaught: I am deeply envious of your 'life on the cut' - a delightful and fascinating existence. Well-done that man!

18 June 2012 at 16:17  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Isn't envy a sinful emotion signifying feelings of resentful longing? Not far off covetousness, I'd say.

19 June 2012 at 12:36  

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