Saturday, June 23, 2012

Church of England part of the corporatist establishment


In so many matters which affect the lives of the British people the Church of England, while failing to promote Christianity, promotes politically contentious matters such as wind farms, regional Government and the European Union and even fails to speak out against murderous attacks on Christians throughout the world.

But I see the Church establishment has been forced to drop plans for six giant wind turbines on land it owns in North Devon. Angry parishioners noted that the Government was providing (out of the people's pockets) vast subsidies without which the wind farm would have been an economic nonsense. As one parishioner said: “This is a great moment, it’s a David and Goliath victory. The Church is an enormous institution and a very large landowner." Indeed it is and in this as on so many other issues it is on the side of big Government and big money and totally alienated from the flock they claim to lead! They are verily a part of the corporatist Statist establishment, mere politicians in fancy clothes. They could change of course and become a moral light again, but I doubt they will.

Rodney Atkinson


Blogger Andy Field said...

Failure to present the gospel effectively and speak out for our persecuted brothers is so disappointing. A good start would be to ensure all Bishops and Archbishops have to have been a parish priest.

23 June 2012 at 10:10  
Blogger Andy Field said...

Failure to present the gospel effectively and speak out for our persecuted brothers is so disappointing. A good start would be to ensure all Bishops and Archbishops have to have been a parish priest.

23 June 2012 at 10:10  
Blogger Tyndale said...

Well said. Today's Church of England is a far cry from Cranmer's day.It would be encouraging to see an Archbishop or even a Bishop who was prepared to make a principled stand on Christ's teaching on Marriage for example. What is a Christian if not a follower of Christ's teaching? Politicians in fancy frocks! How very apt.

23 June 2012 at 10:26  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

The CoE would have a nice little business going if it wasn’t for Christ’s teaching and God. Still, one is confident we’ll be hearing less and less of those impediments as time goes on, what !

23 June 2012 at 11:46  
Blogger Youthpasta said...

Let us not forget that the Vatican is just as pro-Europe, if not more so, than the CofE.

I wonder what views, if any, other denominations have on the EU. Or are they generally focused on less earthly matters?

23 June 2012 at 12:29  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Youthpasta said ...

"Let us not forget that the Vatican is just as pro-Europe, if not more so, than the CofE."

Maybe but possibly for different reasons, and the Catholic Church is equally vociforous and speaks publically with one voice on matters of faith and morals. The protection of marriage, abortion, divorce, homosexuality, IVF and contraception all spring to mind.

I also have to say it seems to me slightly unbecoming for professed Anglicans to be wading in so publically against your own Church. Something of a protestant tradition following the tone of 95 Theses, me thinks.

Being 'democratic' in their structures surely offers opportunities for reform from within. How is it that the General Synod appears not to represent the views repeatedly expressed here?

23 June 2012 at 12:43  
Blogger Berserker said...

I'm so glad to read that the Wind Farms in Devon have been kiboshed.

What is needed is staring people in the face: The Severn Tidal Barrage (from Brean Down to Lavernock Point near Cardiff) which the government are now considering again. It would provide at least 5% of all UK energy needs and some say the turbines could develop more than that. Here we have (in the Severn) a unique 14 metre tidal flow. Why not use this amazing gift?

Of course silly environmentalists still moan about the triple crested newt and poor birds that would have their habitat disturbed. In fact the opposite would happen. The Severn by the force of the tides is low in light and oxygen (silt disturbed) and would improve the river conditions and it would not as some have claimed, be a lagoon, in fact it would still be a seven metre tide!

The £30 billion cost would be borne by an engineering consortium and at very little cost to the taxpayer, apart from perhaps some initial start up costs. You could run transport links (tolls) across and last but not least would provide vast employment opportunities.

23 June 2012 at 12:45  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Beserker. That’s a cost comparable with the unwanted Cameron vanity project High Speed 2. Anyone who doesn't agree that it is ridiculous to want to arrive in Birmingham twenty minutes earlier hasn’t been to Birmingham.

Wouldn't like to see a road across it though. An electric railway instead, connecting with other public transport infrastructure. The railway would of course be powered by the electricity the barrage produces, so, green lights everywhere, what !

23 June 2012 at 13:03  
Blogger Atlas Shrugged said...

Hats off to Mr Rodney Atkinson.

I see that the usual suspects seem to think that the CofE is somehow acting any differently to the RCC.

The RCC pretends to be all type kinds of views, yet does NOTHING to actually secure its supposed position.

The power, influence, and wealth of The RCC makes that of the CofE look like that of a drunken bum living in a card board box under Waterloo Bridge.

How much has it done to protect its flock from the Fabian wolves of Marxism?

I suggest that it has not only done effectively nothing, it has actually been the main promoters of things such as the MMGW scam, murder of the unborn, gay activism, Marxism in all it forms, and much of all of the rest.

The RCC has also been busying itself infiltrating and subverting with the ultimate aim of utterly destroying all things protestant to the power of The Holy Mother Church for around 550 or many more years.

We must know the tree, by its fruits. This in the same way that we must know a politician, or religious leader not by his or her words, but by their actions, and the ultimate consequences thereof.

If one recalls ones history correctly one will remember that The Berlin Wall did not fall because of the words or actions of M. Thatcher or R. Reagan, but that of Pope John Paul II.

Am I saying that the Pope, and his bankers are so powerful that he can quite literally bring down whole nations the size of the Old Soviet Union?

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

23 years further on and we can now see that Marxist Socialism did not fall at all, ( only the unity of a once giant empire,) but was simply set free to further infest the western world with its profound evil.

This is the RED horse of Book of Revelation fame. The forces of the now Red Planet ( Mars ), and the prelude to the arrival of the Pale, or Yellow Horse as represented by the flag of Vatican City.

23 June 2012 at 13:52  
Blogger Bishopsman said...

Atlas shrugged, that is some truly wonderful conspiracy-mongering right there.

Are you related to Rev. Paisley?

23 June 2012 at 14:14  
Blogger Bishopsman said...

To seem to believe the Catholic Church is somehow at the heart of some apocalyptic conspiracy to bring all the world under its Marxist Catholic yoke.

Can you provide a shred of evidence?

23 June 2012 at 14:31  
Blogger non mouse said...

Well said Mr. Atkinson. What with creeping RCism in services, etc, I believe the CoE plan is to disestablish itself and return to the foreigners. After all, the euSSR destroyed two of the prime motives for having our own Church ... which were to stop being ruled by aliens and paying taxes to them.

When the time comes, they'll expect us to be pretty immune to the large land grab involved. After all, we're already used to foreign occupation of our cities...

So yes. It high time to identify this other set of traitors.


Oh dear, Mr. Berserker. There's that vile euSSR language again! I know what a tide is; I know what a tidal bore is. But what's the English for a 7 m-thingy one?

23 June 2012 at 16:20  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

non mouse

And I always thought the Church of England was Catholic and Reformed. No?

And the EU is Roman Catholicism in disguise too?

23 June 2012 at 16:29  
Blogger Atlas Shrugged said...

Bishopsman said...
Atlas shrugged, that is some truly wonderful conspiracy-mongering right there.

Are you related to Rev. Paisley?

23 June 2012 14:14

Thank you for the compliment.

Your job is to PROVE it ant so. If not prove such, for real proof only exists in the realm of pure mathematics, at least give any evidence whatsoever which suggests that it may not be.

No, I am not related to Rev. Paisley, although I have spoken to him once, where we discussed the then inclement weather for a few moments.

I give as evidence the witness of your own eyes and ears, as well as that contained within any main stream history book on the subject of the power of Rome.

The RCC is rich, I mean REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, rich, get it? So rich indeed that not even The RCC's accountants, and certainly not any kind of tax man has more then a fair clue as to quite how almost infinitely rich The RCC is, and has long since been.

( evidence )The Pope lives in a palace that makes Buck House look like a soup kitchen for the homeless.

Controls arms services as large, indeed larger then that of the entire western world. A property portfolio which is effectively The Entire Planet Earth. A diplomatic influence that extends from east to west, and from north to south as far as these directions go.

The RCC controls not only our entire religious, political and financial structures, it quite obviously also controls YOUR mind.

Even if the above is not entirely the case, it is most certainly close to being so, and closer at every day that passes.

Given this very well evidenced, and historically proven reality, I direct your attention again to my above comment.

We must know our leaders by the fruits they bare.

Who do you really think is behind The EU, Father Christmas, or The Tooth Fairy?

I can absolutely assure you that if the power behind, and within The Vatican did not want wars, we would not have EVER had any at all, which lasted more then a few days. If The RCC did not want The EU, it would never have existed even as a theory.

Warfare is a product of banking, which is money lending with interest sometimes known as usury. International Warfare is the product of International Banking which is wholly the preserve of the RCC.

This run under license to the British Crown, run by The Popes and Her Majesties most favored banking family, through The City of London as represented largely by The Bank of England and Federal Reserve, and their holding company, The Bank of International Settlements in Switzerland.

Which in payment for the countries highly privileged position, sends Swiss solders to The Vatican to guard its real boss from the attacks of the insidious.

Not that their real owner is taking any chances you understand, which is why he hides so often in his bomb and bullet proof Pope mobile, and always behind pullet proof glass, surrounded by highly trained body guards whenever seen in public.

23 June 2012 at 16:46  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

The Church of England is also inept when it comes to its investments -didn't it loose millions on its pension funds, as well as getting into trouble by giving money to the Hedgies? (whilst also attacking the greed of bankers?).

Also I agree with inspector (although I do like Brummies and Birmingham is quite a nice place now- even the New York Times but it as one of their top ten holiday destinations because of the balti triangle-their laid back accents are so funny!).

But what is really indeed for the UK energy need is proper investment in nuclear power- a clean energy source and one operational relatively cheap. Unfortunately thanks to the green loons the only companies involved in nuclear are French and German.

23 June 2012 at 17:11  
Blogger Atlas Shrugged said...

Bishopsman said...
To seem to believe the Catholic Church is somehow at the heart of some apocalyptic conspiracy to bring all the world under its Marxist Catholic yoke.

Can you provide a shred of evidence?

23 June 2012 14:31

May I again direct you attention to the above, and particularly to the part concerning real proof.

If you waited for absolute proof before deciding whether to take an umbrella with you in the morning, then you will get wet, and sometimes very wet indeed.

How much evidence would suffice?

Would you believe the Pope himself, even if he admitted it was so?

For I can also assure you that several Popes have actually done so, all of which were very swiftly assassinated within the Vatican itself.

As many Popes know that there ultimate direction is downward if anywhere, it is hardly surprising that ever fewer have even attempted to speak the whole truth on hardly any subject of importance.

The Pope, in common with all other Monarchs or Heads of State, is but a figure head. The truth is that as a general rule if one have heard of he, she or them, then they are just puppets of the real power which is pulling ALL of their strings.

This power is by its very nature very hard to track down. Indeed even when one may start to believe that one is doing so, it seems that one may need to look even higher.

The RCC is quite clear as to where its authority, and help comes. The question we should ask ourselves, is the god to which The RCC bows it head, the same God that we do?

I suggest not, although I am sure that this is possibly a question that not even the Pope himself knows the answer to for sure.

I believe in these few short paragraphs I have given more then enough evident to stimulate the genuinely enquiring mind.

So go to it Tiger, and try to prove me wrong.

For when you eventually do, I am highly confident that you will only serve in proving me right.

23 June 2012 at 17:23  
Blogger Bishopsman said...

Wait, Atlas. You're saying the burden is on me to prove that your vast conspiracy doesn't exist. And your 'proof' is unsubstantiated bizareness?

OK. Here's a though experiment. I am going to make a statement:

'Atlas shrugged likes molesting children'.

Under your rules, you have to 'prove' that the assertion isn't true. I can bring 'evidence' such as "He seems really weird, and has a thing about the catholic church who do things to children therefore he must be a molester".

Because let's be honest, your evidence is scanty. You have this omnipotent church behind the EU. Why is it all going to piss then?

Warfare is the product of banking - so before usury, there was no warfare?

And of course, the RCC has mind control. Yes, classic.

So - Atlas shrugged likes molesting children, the RCC is in control of everyone's minds. Do we need tin-foil hats yet?

23 June 2012 at 17:28  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Shrugged. If one recalls ones history correctly one will remember that The Berlin Wall did not fall because of the words or actions of M. Thatcher or R. Reagan, but that of Pope John Paul II.

You do not recall history correctly, not on the Berlin wall coming down, or anything else for that matter. The wall came down because the Soviet leader, Mr Gorbachev, was a nice man who would not send the Red Army into East Germany as a punishment. It was a momentous occasion and still recalled in detail by the Inspector. From that time, he has a satellite image of the northern hemisphere of Earth. The Soviet Union was coloured red, and filled the page. On the far left of the picture, the comparatively tiny area of Western Europe was coloured blue. Profound, don’t you think that this small area was in part responsible for the eventual demise of the red area...

23 June 2012 at 17:38  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
Rodney Atkinson has raised an issue that has been simmering for quite some time.
The CofE is not one church but several, all parading under one banner. There are the traditionalists, the evangelical modernists and then you have the liberalising types, transforming the church into something unrecognisable to most Christians and certainly very strange to God.

It about time that the grass roots of the church stood up to be counted. The trouble with that is that many of them have difficulty standing and say, if it was good enough for me then it must be good for them.

Vicars, Choir masters, Church Wardens and a myriad of other quasi officials who all have to have their say and I doubt if many will agree.

I do believe that the Church should have a say on political issues that affect the population as a whole and the church in particular but there involvement in the EU is like the Government trying to change the will of God.

If a revolution from the grass roots is unlikely, but not impossible, then a new leadership is required and an Arch Bishop that is not chosen by the political ruling class. They will want someone who will maintain the status quo and not give the Government any problems.

So where does that leave us. Probably the Bishops who are 'alive' to the Gospel and have an acute sense of what the church should be.

23 June 2012 at 17:48  
Blogger Atlas Shrugged said...

Please understand that it is very difficult to sum up the entire history of this planet on a comments forum.

I only serve to stimulate your own research into this could not be more important matter. Many of you people do after all profess to be of a spiritual nature, therefore these kinds of subjects should be of real interest.

Of course you could simply give up the battle, and toss your eternal souls to the winds of fate. Which is a choice you were undoubtedly born with the divinely given right to make.

If this is your will, then carry on watching BBC like it bares more then a passing resemblance to true reality, and so attempt to hide yourselves in ignorance.

My advice however would be, while your head is buried in the sands of the sea, your back side will remain more than a little vulnerable, to say the least.

You never know, with luck, The Most High may even forgive your cowardliness. Therefore please feel free to completely ignore my comments if you wish.

23 June 2012 at 17:51  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

To be honest Shrugged, there is more evidence to support the existence of the tooth fairy than your fantasies. One understands the going rate is a pound, and can be found under the pillow in the morning. Hard evidence. Facts, if you will, that can be analysed - now, where’s yours ?

23 June 2012 at 18:02  
Blogger Oswin said...

OIG @ 11:46 : and said without the merest recognition of irony! ;o)

23 June 2012 at 18:14  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Failed to recognise any Oswin, but do expand...

23 June 2012 at 18:38  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...


Have you seen the film 'The Matrix'? I do believe our Atlas has had his ideas plagiarised.

Just think, he could be a wealthy man now if all the Catholic lassies hadn't distracted him in his youth. Maybe that was a cunning plan to prevent him discovering the 'truth' too soon?

23 June 2012 at 18:54  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Mouse at 16:20

One wonders how the protestant congregation on the continent, who have to suffer an outright atheist for their minister is getting on with attempts to oust him. Of course, the CoE has them too. Social workers in cassocks who are godless, but have yet to declare themselves as such. When you water down Christianity, these things happen, and these frauds slip by what procedures there are to stop them.

Don’t you at least feel comforted that when the inevitable happens, and Christianity is what ever the priest in charge of a parish says it is, the mother church is there to pick up the pieces, and the congregation can sign themselves over to Rome ? And even if you aren’t, at least give some consideration to the possibility that many are...

23 June 2012 at 19:00  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. Not that one recalls. Inspector is a bit of a monochrome man, but will watch almost anything up to 1970 and only the best from afterwards. Saw a Tarenteeno film the other day. Too much obscene and sickening violence. Fortunately was doing the ironing at the time. He should be put in prison, not applauded...

23 June 2012 at 19:06  
Blogger non mouse said...

Oswin @ 18:14 Funny.

On another level, the consistency of the gaps in communication round here is quite a revelation ... .

I think computerised spaces like this could provide valuable fodder for competent students of, how shall I put it, education/IQ/psychology.

But, for us all to benefit, the researchers would need to ditch their little red bibles, so as quarere verum.

23 June 2012 at 19:35  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Mouse. Didn’t catch any of that. Not a thing.

23 June 2012 at 19:47  
Blogger Anabaptist said...

Inspector, I'm as opposed to HS2 as you are, but your comments about Birmingham suggest to me that you haven't been there yourself.

23 June 2012 at 19:57  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...


You're also forgetting what we recently learned on the Pink site. There's a multi-coloured fabulous rhinoceros in Birmingham, over the entry point to the homosexual village. Supposed to be splendid, it is.

Another reason to bypass the place, I'd say.

23 June 2012 at 20:04  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Mr Integrity said ...
"The CofE is not one church but several, all parading under one banner. There are the traditionalists, the evangelical modernists and then you have the liberalising types ..."

I'll tell you a secret. The Catholic Church has similar tensions. It's perfectly reasonable and natural for people to question their faith and reevaluate how it is applied in changing circumstances.

The difference is the Catholic Church acknowledges the final authority on earth of the Pope and the Bishops in Ecumenical Council when issues become divisive or where heresy and false teaching arise. We believe God gave the Church that responsibility and guides it when it formally teaches on matters of faith and doctrine.

A potentially very dangerous arrangement, as history shows, especially when the roles of Church and State become confused or when corrupt men gain control.
However, Catholics do trust the Church is divinely inspired and protected and, despite the failings of men, the Mystical Body of Christ will remain true to its mission.

As I see it, there is no structure in the Anglican Church that can resolve disputes and so diffferent Gospels are preached under the banner of one Church.

In my opinion, this goes way back to the ambiguous compromise between Catholicism (Reformed) and Calvinism in the formulation of your articles of faith.

(Sorry 'Bish; its what I believe.)

23 June 2012 at 20:19  
Blogger Atlas Shrugged said...

The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Have you seen the film 'The Matrix'? I do believe our Atlas has had his ideas plagiarised.

Don't be silly young man these are not exclusively ideas of my own, a fact of which I am sure you are well aware. They are premised upon far stronger foundations. For example every single religious text currently known to man.

Therefore it is hardly surprising that a Hollywood producer or two have sort to make some money out of them, while playing with peoples minds. This is after what comes naturally to users of The Holly Wood, who work their magic at a place named Hollywood.

Having said that, maybe the producers of The Matrix are onto something which I personally prefer to not approach with any sense of certainty.

However why get complicated, or wast the bus fare to your local library, when you could simply read a book of which I hope you already possess a copy, namely The Holy Bible.

May I also recommend when doing so that you approach the unique task with an open mind, considering it to be an allegorical tale, rather then much regarding literal truth.

Whatever you do, don't ask your Roman Catholic priest what it is supposed to mean, otherwise you might as well stick to reading The Beano, or worse The Daily Mail.

23 June 2012 at 20:26  
Blogger anna anglican said...

Hi Dodo and Inspector,

As I said above, the Brummies do have that very funny laid back accent and the New York Times put our second city (no Carl Jacobs, we are not talking about the one in Alabama) on its top ten destinations for American tourists. And you can get a decent curry. Perhaps you could do a Nelson when seeing the pink Rhino?

23 June 2012 at 20:27  
Blogger anna anglican said...

From the BBC :

(OK, I admit I got the top ten bit wrong but 19 is still quite a good place ):

"Birmingham has been ranked among the top 20 international destinations to visit in 2012, in a list compiled by the New York Times.

The city was ranked 19th in the list of 45 places the newspaper recommended people visit and was chosen because of its growing culinary reputation.

It was ranked ahead of Vienna, the Maldives and finished one place higher than outer space".

23 June 2012 at 20:36  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Anabaptist. Keep to the inner centre, you’re safe there. For the adventurous minded, here are few areas of Birmingham you risk being mugged and or shot. Aston, Lozells, Handsworth. Other delightful areas that you may care to avoid include Shard End, Small Heath, Alum Rock, All ethnically enriched, of course.

HS2 is designed to turn the centre into a dormitory for London. A lot of people got their fingers burnt with the property collapse. Important, influential people. Savvy ?

23 June 2012 at 20:37  
Blogger Anabaptist said...

Inspector I was born in Stechford, spent my childhood in Washwood Heath, shopped in Alum Rock, enjoyed my teen years in Erdington and went to school in Bordesley Green. I admit they don't look quite the same any more; but suspect that you could select certain areas of London that have undergone similar transformations, and that may be equally -- shall we say -- interesting.

But I don't need any further information to be opposed to HS2.

23 June 2012 at 20:43  
Blogger Anabaptist said...

Anna Birmingham is a cultural wonder, with fine, world-class orchestras, choirs, art galleries, jewellery quarter and heritage. Lots of reasons to go there as well as balti.

23 June 2012 at 20:45  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Anna. The Inspector will be interrupting his journey to the Lake District at New Street sometime in July. To take tobacco. By the taxi rank next to the “Please do not smoke here” sign.

23 June 2012 at 20:54  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Anna Baptist. Always wanted to go to Washwood Heath to see the rail yard. One’s hobby. Of course, it wouldn’t be the same since the demise of speedlink, twenty years ago.

23 June 2012 at 20:58  
Blogger Anabaptist said...

Inspector. The Metro Camell head office and main works were just round the corner form our house.

Please have the courtesy to get my name right.

23 June 2012 at 21:05  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Anabaptist. One detects a rather stern protestant humour in you...

23 June 2012 at 21:10  
Blogger Preacher said...

It's interesting to note, that when John Wesley died, he left: Six pounds, six silver spoons, a handful of books & a well worn ministers gown.
Oh yes! & the Methodist Church & a spiritually revived & renewed group of people.
Perhaps ALL the Churches that name Jesus Christ as their Lord would take a leaf out of Wesley's book, (the Bible) & preach the gospel. Friendship with the World is enmity with God I Believe.

23 June 2012 at 21:19  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...


In part John Wesley successful because of his departure from the Calvinism prevalent within Anglicanism at the time.

" ... not one, or a hundred only, but I am persuaded, several thousands...innumerable are the instances...of those who had fallen but now stand upright."

What a wonderful sentiment!

23 June 2012 at 21:35  
Blogger Preacher said...

I believe Wesley recognised a need for a return to Biblical Christianity & the Gospel. He saw how the Churches were becoming Worldly & Secular & was suitably moved to do something about it.
His early efforts in the U.S.A failed & he returned to England a sad, disappointed man.
However his experience with some of the Moravian Brethren on board a storm tossed ship, led him to persevere & he experienced being born again & baptised in the Holy Spirit, as did the first disciples at Pentecost. Thus the Methodist revival was born, not of man, but from nan's unquestioning obedience to God.

Blessings. Preacher

23 June 2012 at 22:18  
Blogger non mouse said...

Preacher @ 21:19.

Sounds good to me. And if they're still singing those hymns to the right tunes....

Though I shan't, just yet, give up the fruits of His Grace's.

23 June 2012 at 22:30  
Blogger non mouse said...

... sorry; that was "fruits of His Grace's work."

23 June 2012 at 22:32  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...


Yes, but the theology driving his preaching was at heart Arminian and as such a radical break from Calvinism. I have read some of his sermons and wonderful they are too. A great man of God.

23 June 2012 at 22:42  
Blogger anna anglican said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

23 June 2012 at 22:43  
Blogger anna anglican said...

Hi Anabaptist,

I was quoting from the BBC website about the NYT's suggestions for the geneal foreign tourist in 2012, e.g. gentleman like Carl Jacobs.

I know that Birmingham has several great universities and when I've been there (in my day job) I've found that Brummy hospitality & sense of humour are second to none, plus you've got a massive art gallery (I like the oil painitng "Dominicans in Feathers" [A bit like old Dodo- LOL!]) and a multi-cultural metropolis and a well educated populance.

Also dodo and inspector might want to know that our second city has a large Irish population too...

Also- Inspector, I've look up on the Anabaptists and I think that the Anabaptists are one of the most peaceful peoples of the globe. They are like the amish and quakers and are very pacifists in the views, they wouldn't hurt anyone (but have been themselves by Catholic and Protestant).

Anyway, I think Birmingham is well worth Inspector and Dodo visiting.

23 June 2012 at 22:44  
Blogger Preacher said...

Radical Christianity eh! Holy Spirit led Revival? Sounds good to me.
Double portion please.
Anybody else want to join the party?.

23 June 2012 at 22:54  
Blogger Atlas Shrugged said...

The times of people like John Wesley, and of course Tom Cranmer have long since passed. However the events in Dallas 63, brought things to a head, excuse the pun.

Please be reminded that now days cold hard cash, or a potential bullet to the head, has the ability to corrupt any individual or institution, most especially when not even preachers truly have faith in the eternity of human consciousness.

" And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out from my hand "

John 10 verse 28

Materialism in the form of Darwinism has rotted away much of the very core of what distinguishes human beings from the rest of Earth bound animal life.

We are intellectually consumed either with a desperate struggle for existence, or the acquisition and retention of material possessions. As such it is difficult to rationally expect the grace of God, to say the least.

An increasing majority strongly suspect that if there be a better place, they are personally condemned to be severally excluded, for in their heart of hearts they know themselves to be unworthy.

Therefore we get the leaders we deserve, and seek to justify their mendacity, sexual perversions, selfishness, and general dishonesty using our own ever lowering standards.

Thoughts like the following, are now more often spoken.

Well, he might be the Pope, but even he is only an ordinary man when it comes down to the proverbial it, and anyway the little boys properly enjoyed his attentions.

David may be a liar, a humbug and a cad, but we all have to tell the odd little porky sometimes to get on in life?

Gordon can't help being as mad as a box of frogs, and we all make mistakes sometimes with our basic mathematics.

Ed may be a hopeless nurd, the likes of which we used to take the piss out off at school, but everyone deserves a chance to shine.

Tony is OK really, and at least he is a more convincing liar then Gordon, and remembered not to pick his nose and eat it in public.

Nick may be a Soviet Marxist, by birth and inclination, but surely he has changed now that he has got himself into government. They all do you know. ( by the way, NO THEY DON'T )

Barrack may be doing everything that Bush would have done, and been responsible for several thousand of innocent dead Muslims, but they are only Muslims after all, and at least he is not entirely white for a change.

And so on, and so forth.

There was a time not long ago, when our leaders were expected to show themselves to be better then the common people, now they are accepted as being much worse.

Worse still, we continue to earnestly vote for, or enthusiastically worship them, as is the case with our Holy Father, and his Mother Church.

We continue to patiently wait in vain for our Druidical ABofC to start being a Christian for once.

We continue to wait patiently in vain for our Gracious Majesty to have some kind of Road to Damascus revelation and so start to defend the faith, never mind her own now God damned country for just once during her 60 and counting years on the thrown.

We continue to hope in vain that Cameron may turn out to be not so bad after all, contrary to all evidence or rational expectation..

We do this even though we know in our hearts, that as this has not already happened, the chance of it happening now, is no chance at all.

I also know that in your hearts, you have more then a sneaking suspicion that I am right, but simply lack the personal courage to fully go there.

23 June 2012 at 23:00  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...


Why the surprise? The Catholic Church appreciates men of God from all 'denominations'. With proper instruction in the faith, he would have made a fine Catholic Priest too ;o).

And, by the way, I can understand Wesley's attraction to the simplicity of the Morovians. However, I doubt he supported one of their fundamental doctrines, that of the universal depravity of man.

23 June 2012 at 23:28  
Blogger Preacher said...

Wesley was an Anglican clergyman, he had received instruction from men of the Church. It wasn't sufficient.
Only God can reveal Himself to man.
Why are so many people so bound by religion? You never learn to swim until you let go of the side of the pool & take your feet off the bottom. All the time the debates go on, the disputes & comparisons, "Mines the best, yours is wrong, if you join us" etc, etc. where is the place for personal faith in the Almighty alone?.
Wesley could have joined the Roman Catholic Church, or the Lutherans or any other denomination. The point is he didn't, why, because he knew the answer wasn't to be found in any of them, but in God alone, & the results of his life proved it.
Becoming a priest would not have made him a better servant of the Almighty, it would have stifled him. Just as the Anglican Church did.

Tell me brother can you really look at what mankind has become & hand on heart tell me that you don't believe that all have sinned & that depravity is the result of it, & that the only answer is the atoning death of Jesus Christ?.
I believe that this was what kept Wesley's fire for the salvation of souls burning & that we need more men of God like him today. Men who aren't afraid to stand alone & proclaim to a dying world "Thus says the Lord".

Many Blessings Brother. Preacher.

24 June 2012 at 00:11  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...


I swam alone for nearly 30 years before returning home.

We've discussed this before and as you know I am not a great fan of ritual, yet I have come to understand the great truths and purposes lying behind it.

And do I believe
" ... that all have sinned & that depravity is the result of it, & that the only answer is the atoning death of Jesus Christ?"

Of course I do! Isn't it the other way around, though? We share the consequences of the Fall - a loss of holiness and justice received from God, and human nature is wounded and predisposed towards sin?

What marked Wesley out was his belief that we have to cooperate with the Holy Spirit and that salvation can be a life time struggle and that santification can be lost and regained.

24 June 2012 at 00:41  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...


I was joking about Wesley becoming a Catholic Priest!

24 June 2012 at 00:42  
Blogger Preacher said...

O.K Dodo. LOL. God Bless. sleep well.

Blessings. Preacher.

24 June 2012 at 00:46  
Blogger Atlas Shrugged said...

Wesley could have joined the Roman Catholic Church, or the Lutherans or any other denomination. The point is he didn't, why, because he knew the answer wasn't to be found in any of them, but in God alone, & the results of his life proved it.

I agree with your general sentiments.

However, you radically understate the case.

If one needs a church of any kind to realize ones intuitive disposition towards Christ Consciousness, then one has quite frankly missed the entire point of Christianity, and more then wasted your efforts in vain.

If one enjoys ritual then join the freemasons, and have a good meal shortly afterwards with your mates. If not perhaps the Boy-scouts movement may float your boat.

But don't whatever you do pretend that the way to reach a relationship with the whole is somehow better enacted in some kind of building known as a church or temple, ultimately run, and inhabited by people who would not know the true nature of Gods gift if it or He was standing on their head, or yours for that matter.

We must raise our conscious level, or we are holed below the water line. Only an individual can achieve this, and he achieves this by thinking for themselves, not by being maliciously diverted from his path.

We are not of the body, indeed we are entrapped within it. Life is nothing but an experience we are having. If one has learned nothing from it, then as I have already stated, ones entire efforts have likely been wasted in vain.

Organized established religion has been exploiting mans intuitive understanding of his true nature since time immemorial. It is well past high time we parted our chains, broke from our self inflicted prison cells and finally became free to truly think for ourselves, and in so doing unite within the true meaning of Christ.

24 June 2012 at 02:09  
Blogger Oswin said...

Anabaptist @ 20:45 :

Most Brummies that I know, regard present day Birmingham as an absolute ''sh*t h*le'' - and I feel their pain!

Yes, I was quoting; it seems to be the most popular, if somewhat vulgar response, to the question ''how's Brum these days?' I've not been there myself since the mid 1970's, but one likes to keep in touch.

24 June 2012 at 02:27  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


Wesley stated that only prevenient grace could break the “iron logic” of Calvinism. Unfortunately, Wesley had to postulate prevenient grace out of thin air in order to accomplish this task - the Scriptural case for prevenient grace being ... well ... non-existent. He couldn’t bring forth prevenient grace from exegesis of Scripture. At best he inferred it, and this based upon a philosophical predisposition. The anchor of his case is not a Scriptural concept.

Man finds the doctrines of grace offensive, and seek ways around them. He wants to have the final say in his ultimate destiny, but he doesn’t get to have such a say. God is free, and not man.

who was lazy and compended this from something he wrote four years ago.

24 June 2012 at 05:09  
Blogger Roy said...

As if on cue the Telegraph website today has this article:

Archbishop of Canterbury renews attack on David Cameron's Big Society

The Archbishop of Canterbury has launched a fresh attack on David Cameron’s Big Society, saying it is perceived as “aspirational waffle”.

24 June 2012 at 08:33  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

You mean you only just noticed?

"The church" has been that way since the political fix back at Nicea, actually!

24 June 2012 at 09:02  
Blogger Preacher said...

Time & room Combine to disallow us from total investigation or clarification of everything we submit in the limited space of a blog, thus a tendency to understate rather than overstate ones position on a subject.
I agree that the Church does not need purpose built edificies to gather & worship in, indeed most of Wesleys early preaching was conducted in the open air due to the 'Churches' being shut to him.
I do feel that believers need to pray & worship together & this is born out in scripture.
Our inclement climate (as evidenced by our present 'Summer') however does incline us to need a dry comfortable place to gather, so I have no problems with that being provided on practical grounds.
But I agree with you on the basic tenets of the rest of your post.

Blessings. Preacher.

24 June 2012 at 09:34  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

More thoughts on Birmingham...

Did you know that in the 1970s, Birmingham was called a “successful multicultural community”. It’s true ! But times change. In this day, the “successful” bit has been quietly dropped. Not even the most enthusiastic socialist manipulator could keep that lie going. They also say Birmingham is to be the first place in the UK to have an ethnic population greater than 50%. Well, it’s actually already there, it all depends on how large you wish to make the radius from the centre. Believe the Inspector, it’s large, has to be to catch the white community living on the outskirts.

Here’s something else communicants might not realise about “Multicultural”. Under it’s original envisage, the term actually included white people ! And not just a token few, masses of them. Otherwise multi-culturalism would eventually break down and you would be left with ghetto situations. What a revelation that has been. For some unofficially recognised reason, the white people walked in great numbers. It could be construed that the people involved wanted nothing to do with the concept. But of course you'll rarely hear that. Shame really, Johnny and Jenny might now be fluent Urdu speakers with a back to front knowledge of the koran. A missed opportunity, what !

24 June 2012 at 15:19  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


All this talk of Birmingham is quite confusing. There is no large Urdu-speaking population in Birmingham. Never has been.

Wait! Have you Brits been copying American names for your cities again?


24 June 2012 at 16:22  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Carl, from Birmingham’s site, a few of the exotic languages you’ll hear in England’s second city. Though it’s hard to differentiate between them in the street, as they all sound the same.


24 June 2012 at 16:38  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Carl, To avoid confusion in the future, the Inspector will refer to Birmingham, England. He is after all posting on a US Calvinist site, and would not wish to appear somewhat daft :->

24 June 2012 at 16:41  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Carl, You are of course welcome to visit Birmingham, England. But do bare in mind that unlike you Dakotans, we don't scalp our Indians. That kind of thing just isn’t tolerated here, you know...

24 June 2012 at 16:50  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


So you have been cribbing American names. Did you get permission first?


24 June 2012 at 17:07  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Carl, The name "Birmingham" comes from the Old English Beormingahām meaning the home or settlement of the Beormingas – a tribe or clan whose name literally means "Beorma's people"

Now, what’s so interesting about that is your typically Brummie still pronounces Birmingham ‘Beormingahām’ - a fact our tame Anabaptist can surely attest to...

24 June 2012 at 17:18  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...


There is something of a paradox in Scripture about God's omniscience and man's free will.

Calvinism stands at one extreme; Lutheranism somewhere in the middle and Catholics towards the other end.

Some understand the Bible's references to humanity's condition as being that of 'total depravity', a spiritual death, with free will permanently removed. Some are predestined by God to be saved; the rest for damnation. Justification is limited to those predestined for an irresistable conversion of the eternally elect.

Other Christians see this bleak position as making God a tyrant and an executioner. They see 'spiritual death' as a condition that prevenient (preceeding) grace can potentilly resolve for everyone.

Some see all people as either dead in their sins or alive in Christ, and the doctrine of prevenient grace as creating a third state, neither dead nor alive. Some understand "dead in sin" to mean absolutely incapable of good, whereas other Christians understand it to mean the state of being separated from God by sin, but capable of choosing God when enabled to by grace.

Here's what Arminius stated:

"Free will is unable to begin or to perfect any true and spiritual good, without grace.... This grace [prœvenit] goes before, accompanies, and follows; it excites, assists, operates that we will, and co operates lest we will in vain."

A Methodist account:

"...the divine love that surrounds all humanity and precedes any and all of our conscious impulses. This grace prompts our first wish to please God, our first glimmer of understanding concerning God's will, and our 'first slight transient conviction' of having sinned against God. God's grace also awakens in us an earnest longing for deliverance from sin and death and moves us toward repentance and faith."

And there's plenty of Biblical support too, depending on one's understanding of Scripture:

Luke 19:10: "For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

John 6:44: "No man can come unto me, unless the Father who hath sent me, draw him..."

John 12:32: "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

Romans 2:4: "...the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance..."

Philippians 2:12-13: " out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God that worketh in you according to his good pleasure, both to will and to do."

And no, I'm neither Armenian nor Methodist. The Council of Trent stated it such:

"The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace."

24 June 2012 at 18:42  
Blogger non mouse said...

Mr.Jacobs ... here's additional info on the onomastics of "Birmingham." In Old English, beorma m.= 'barm,' yeast, or leaven.*

One might question whether the original nomenclature (in Christian England) deliberately referenced Luke 13:
20 And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the Kingdom of God?/
21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

In any case, a certain irony inheres in present day application of the concept: given the way in which the Communist Europe has deliberately used immigration - to destroy Anglo-Saxon-British culture.

[This kind of parallel-thinking --- by diction that juxtaposes historical references --- is traditionally Anglo-Saxon, btw. It probably derives from earlier oral cultures, including the Hebrew (cf Psalms); Beowulf contains many examples.]

*Hall, J. R. Clark. A Concise Anglo-Saxon Dictionary. 4th ed. Buffalo: University of Toronto Press, 1996. [Originally published by Cambridge University Press, 1894.]

24 June 2012 at 22:28  
Blogger Preacher said...

Thank you for your exposition on the Arminian teaching.
I guess that means that while men are capable of free will & choice, I must continue with my calling to preach the gospel, in season & out with the aim of bringing some to the mercy seat of Christ & making disciples of all nations. (No early retirement in this campaign then).
May the Lord richly Bless you.


25 June 2012 at 09:55  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...


OIG? What are you suggesting, Sir?

You must continue to do what you believe in your heart God has called you to do.

I admire this teaching from an Eastern Orthodox bishop:

"Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. All the categorical strength and point of this aphorism lies in its tautology. Outside the Church there is no salvation, because salvation is the Church".

Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone who is visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked: "How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!"

While there is no division between a "visible" and an "invisible Church", yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say.2

(Kallistos Ware)

Bless you.

25 June 2012 at 13:47  
Blogger Preacher said...

Apologies for confusing you with OIG, it must have been the Birmingham effect.
Good exposition though, thank you!.

Blessings Preacher.

26 June 2012 at 01:11  

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