Friday, July 27, 2012

A Minute for Munich


The Olympic Games are about sport and should not be politicised. And yet whenever diverse nations and fractious tongues are gathered together in peace and global brotherhood, the laying aside of mutual enmities is only made possible by grace, diplomacy, and sheer political will.

This Olympic Games marks the 40th anniversary of the 1972 Munich massacre, when Palestinian Arabs slaughtered 11 Israeli Jews, for no other reason than that they were Israeli Jews.

There has been a concerted campaign at the highest diplomatic levels addressed to the International Olympic Committee for the London Games to be preceded by a minute’s silence, in memory of the dead. The United States, Israel and Germany have all made formal requests. The Rt Hon John Bercow MP, Speaker of the House of Commons wrote: “I am pleased to send my support for the worldwide 1 minute silence taking place on 27 July for the eleven victims of the 1972 Munich Olympic Games massacre. I also wish to pay tribute to those who campaign so tirelessly for this terrible event to be commemorated.”

“The International Olympic Committee have a moral commitment to commemorate the 11 athletes, coaches and referees,” Israeli Olympic Committee secretary general Efraim Zinger said. “Not because they were Israelis, but because they were Olympians and were murdered during the Olympic Games.”

But the IOC do not feel that the opening ceremony is an appropriate arena to remember the dead.

This might have something to do with the fact that the Committee includes 46 Arab and Muslim members. No doubt if a minute’s silence were held, some representatives of Muslim Arab nations would exit the arena in protest. And then the commemoration would have ceased to have been about the dead, and become a reminder of an ancient religio-political enmity which is beyond mere diplomacy.

Today, Friday 27th July, heralds the 9th Av on the Hebrew calendar. It is a solemn and sombre day, marking the date when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 BC and by the by the Romans in AD 70. Not until 1948 could the Jews again call Israel their homeland and Jerusalem their capital. Some, of course, prefer to forget the Diaspora and the ensuing Holocaust. The slaughter of Israeli Olympians was simply a perpetuation of both.

In the absence of a minute’s silence in memory of the Munich victims, the Chief Rabbi has issued a prayer to be read in Synagogues today, the first Shabbat of the Olympic Games:
Almighty God:
We, the members of this holy congregation,
Together with members of the United Hebrew Congregations of the Commonwealth,
Join our prayers to the prayers of others throughout the world,
In remembrance of the eleven Israeli athletes
Brutally murdered in an act of terrorism,
At the 1972 Olympic Games in Munich,
Because they were Israelis,
Because they were Jews.
At this time in the Jewish year,
When we remember the destructions of our holy Temples,
And the many tragedies that have befallen our people throughout history,
We mourn their loss
And continue to protest against those who hate our people.
We pray to You, O God:
Comfort the families and friends of the Israeli athletes who continue to grieve
And grant eternal life to those so cruelly robbed of life on earth.
Just as we are united in grief,
Help us stay united in hope.
As we comfort one another under the shadow of death,
Help us strengthen one another in honouring life.
The Olympic message is one of peace, of harmony and of unity,
Teach us, Almighty God, to bring reconciliation and respect between faiths,
As we pray for the peace of Israel,
And for the peace of the world.
May this be Your will and let us say: Amen
אֲדוֹן הָעוֹלָמִים זְכוֹר אֶת נִשְמוֹת
דוד ברגר (David Berger)
יוסף גוטפרוינד (Yossef Gutfreund)
משה ויינברג (Moshe Weinberg)
אליעזר חלפין (Eliezer Halfin)
מרק סלבין (Mark Slavin)
יוסף רומנו (Yossef Romano)
קהת שור (Kehat Shorr)
אנדרי שפיצר (Andre Spitzer)
עמיצור שפירא (Amitzur Shapira)
יעקב שפּרינגר (Yakov Springer)
זאב פרידמן (Ze'ev Friedman)

57 Comments:

Blogger Roger Pearse said...

I'm not sure about this one, you know.

Yes, the Israeli athletes were murdered. Yes, I am quite certain that the Arabs would oppose any such proposal.

But ... just why is this proposal being put forward anyway? And after so long? Is there political advantage to someone in this?

Is this proposal really about creating a climate in which Israel has moral authority, in it is more difficult to criticise Israel?

If so, isn't this rather like hijacking the games for the interests of one nation?

I am rather tired of endless attempts by the Israelis to erect holocaust museums in places like the Imperial War Museum. Yes, these events were terrible. But it seems as if the memory is being exploited, and us with it.

27 July 2012 at 09:50  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Your Grace,

Amen to your post and to the Chief Rabbi's prayer.

27 July 2012 at 09:55  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

I'm not sure about this one, you know.
No..You don't say, Sherlock.

The games are supposed to be about peace and friendship even whilst competing against each other and this suggestion of a remembrance during this troubled world is meant to commemorate/bring into mind what this means and not what it is to beor can be used for..righting perceived wrongs by murder at a meeting of people..This would be how the Mafia is shown to operate.?!

Most of the time Ernst is convinced you never read what is actually written or said but some evolutionary mechanism resides in that lump of bone that auto corrects what is does not want to compute..What might it be..hmm. 'Unnatural Selection? *ribs hurting from sniggers*

E S Blofeld

27 July 2012 at 10:04  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

His Grace tweeted..

"His_Grace Why are Scottish/Welsh athletes prepared to compete under the British flag but not sing the British national anthem? " Indeed. Ernst noticed twice that Giggs and Bellamy with lips tightly closed, most conspicuously done during the anthem.

E S Blofeld

27 July 2012 at 10:11  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Yes, one recalls the event. Along with the destruction of the hijacked aircraft a couple of years earlier. It is hard to imagine another single event that would do more damage to the Palestinian cause than that one...

27 July 2012 at 10:12  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Roger Pearse:

Bloody Sunday occurred in the same year. We still remember it here in Northern Ireland. A lesser-known terrorist atrocity - the Claudy Bombing - is also remembered annually. England likewise remembers atrocities from a similar period - to take one, the Birmingham pub bombing of 1974, which is still remembered with memorial services as recently as 2009.

People and nations that have been so violated remember their dead. The Olympics should be no different in this regard.

We should never be in a position where we find reason to refuse to recognise genuine suffering in our fellow man. If it sticks in your craw to remember the murder of Jews or Israelis, then remember them as Olympians, or even just humans.

27 July 2012 at 10:31  
Blogger Preacher said...

AMEN to the Chief Rabbi's Prayer.

27 July 2012 at 10:52  
Blogger Corrigan1 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

27 July 2012 at 11:58  
Blogger Corrigan1 said...

Good to see sport is still above politics. By the way, does the Chief Rabbi's prayer include Ahmed Bouchiki? (Oh, look him up, Blofeld)

27 July 2012 at 12:00  
Blogger Roger Pearse said...

AnonymousInBelfast, yes, I know there are people there who "remember" Bloody Sunday, not least the lawyers who are making so much money out of it.

In fact I believe Irish folk are still "remembering" Oliver Cromwell and William III. How's that working out, in the service of peace and reconciliation? Around the same time Judge Jeffries was massacring my ancestors in the West Country; but we're not nearly stupid enough to treasure it up as some grievance to promote ourselves with!

All this is rather my point. These sorts of things get "remembered" for political advantage. So ... it's necessary to think this through. Will it, in fact, simply create a world-wide feeling of resentment? Because, after all, why single out Jewish people? At a British Olympics? We can ask why, because the reasons don't look very good.

Your other point is one I ought to reply to. You insinuated that I wrote because of anti-semitism. I am actually *pro*Israeli! But I don't like the idea that No-one May Criticise The Chosen People. Who would?

That was my other point: these attempts to position Jewish and Israeli groups as above criticism are becoming very tedious to everyone else, and, I believe, are responsible for some of the rise in anti-semitism in Europe. Could there be any finer method to alienate *everyone*?

So ... is this entirely a good idea?

Not sure, as I said.

27 July 2012 at 12:59  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

"By the way, does the Chief Rabbi's prayer include Ahmed Bouchiki? (Oh, look him up, Blofeld)" What has the murder of an innocent Moroccan by mistaken i9dentity in Lillehammer. Norway nearly one year later in July 1973 got to do with this prayer. Did the Rabbi kill him?. The brazilian electrician mistakenly killed by British police who did similar is not remembered at the saying of prayers on 7/7 is he?? See the comparison, me tiberian extremist??

The request regards athletes from Israel that were murdered for no reason other than they were Israeli..and this occurred in Munich where the Olympics were being held in 1972..
Should we remember all incidents of atrocities between 1972-73, despite them not occurring at the Olympics, here at London 2012??

What about

Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.) – A ecclesiastical writer and teacher who contributed to the early formation of Christian doctrines.

We may thus assert in utter confidence that the Jews will not return to their earlier situation, for they have committed the most abominable of crimes, in forming this conspiracy against the Savior of the human race…hence the city where Jesus suffered was necessarily destroyed, the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election.

or

John Chrysostom (344-407 A.D.) regarded as one of the "greatest" of the early church fathers; known as "The Golden Mouthed." A missionary preacher famous for his sermons and addresses.

The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition."…"I would say the same things about their souls… As for me, I hate the synagogue…I hate the Jews for the same reason.

or that blessed one, St. Augustine (c. 354-430 A.D.), Confessions, 12.14

How hateful to me are the enemies of your Scripture! How I wish that you would slay them (the Jews) with your two-edged sword, so that there should be none to oppose your word! Gladly would I have them die to themselves and live to you!

even

John Calvin in 'A Response To Questions and Objections of a Certain Jew'

Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone.

However...
Luke 23:34

34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

It obviously applies to no-one but Christ and The Father to action and take this to heart then?

Blessed are the peacemakers..(Caveat: Roman Catholics need read no further)

E S Blofeld

27 July 2012 at 13:11  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

corrigan

There is a legitimate discussion to be had on Operation Wrath of God and on moral equivalence and associated themes.

Not today though. This is a time to remember these Israeli victims and not to analyse and pick apart the politics of "protest" referenced in the Rabbi's prayer.

All you'll achieve is feeding those who seek to accuse the Catholic Church of deep rooted antisemitism - see the 'Sluice's' comment above.

27 July 2012 at 13:27  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

PS

Catholics such as Origen stated"...and another people was called by God to the blessed election." You'd think that The Apostles and all His many disciples were gentiles by this nonsense spouted by, err, 'Christians'...Another people were not called, replacing them as stated, BUT ADDED TO THE NUMBER OF JEWS who believed...The unbelieving jew was as lost as the unbelieving gentile and the believing gentile grafted into the believing root of the Jews.

Want a comparison?

Ernst 3: 7-9

7 But when he saw many of the Roman Catholics and Protestants come to Holy Spirit's baptism for believers, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Origen, Augustine, Luther and Calvin and their sacraments to show our fatherhood: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto God.

Oooh , I might have also got that a bit misconstrued??

E S Blofeld

27 July 2012 at 13:29  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

corrigan

See what I mean? The man, I use the term loosely, now dares to mock the words of Christ and parody scripture!

27 July 2012 at 13:50  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

"The man, I use the term loosely, now dares to mock the words of Christ and parody scripture!"

Ernst shows by comparison, the absurdity about what you continually state, that you and all others believe that somehow you are saved because of externalities...whereas you are not. Examine yourself and if you have life within or are you like the Jews who say, What need have we... we have the catechism, fonts and penance, we are fine, ta very much! How are you any different from them you accuse??

Blofeld

27 July 2012 at 13:56  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

In the late 70's, a friend of mine traveled to Lebanon for a month in the company of a Lebanese national with whom we were both attending college. During that trip, my friend attended a viewing of a western film about the Munich massacre. He reported how surreal it was to watch the film while the audience "cheered at all the wrong parts." They literally applauded as the Israeli athletes were killed. We reach the crux of the problem.

A moment of silence would be an official declaration that the Israelis killed at Munich were victims. There would be no way to avoid the implicit accusation that their killers were murderers. The Palestinian/Arab world instead holds them up as heroes. The Moment of Silence would thus be a terrible public insult to their memory and their cause. And the IOC is just craven enough to kowtow to their demands.

One of the convenient fictions of the 'Olympic Movement' is that all nations are equivalent. No, they aren't. There should be a standard of civilization required for participation - by which standard not one of the Arab nations in this world would qualify. Yeah, yeah, I know. "Occupation blah blah blah oppressed Palestinians blah blah blah plowed orchards." It's all spinach. If the Israeli critics had to actually live in the Middle East, what nation would they choose? Egypt? Syria? Saudi Arabia? No, we all know where they would go. And their choice would betray everything.

carl

27 July 2012 at 14:00  
Blogger Corrigan1 said...

Dodo, I don't know what Blofeld is on about because his writing is completely incomprehensible. It's obvious that English is not his first language (and if it is, then the educational system is in a far worse state than even I had thought) yet he persists in thinking he's one of the great prose stylists. If the man has something to say, I wish he'd stick to basic English; as it is, I skip right on over his posts because I can't be arsed trying to decode them.

As for your earlier substantive point, I have no particular problem with a memorial for the Israeli athletes, but I'm with Roger Pearse on this one. Why now, all of a sudden?

27 July 2012 at 14:06  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Blowfly

This thread is about the appalling deaths of 11 innocent Israeli Olympians.

What do you do?

Your comments are grossly ignorant about Catholic beliefs ("you and all others believe that somehow you are saved because of externalities"). You mocked the very words of Christ and insulted leaders of the Reformation too in this blasphemy too.

Chuckle, guffaw and chortle if you must but show some respect.

27 July 2012 at 14:07  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

I’m in two minds about this one. On one side I’d love to see the commemoration and the prayer and to watch to Muslims walk out. It would make it clear to the world that their agenda is the death of every Jew in the world and that with the establishment of a new set of dictators in the Arab world coming into power, the world will soon be set for Armageddon. On the other hand, the Olympic movement is about including all people of all nations. Then again, the atrocity occurred in the Olympic Park and Jews were specifically targeted by Muslims and many Muslim competitors this year would be unwilling to say sorry for what was done in the name of their religion because they agree with it. However, there have been many atrocities and continue to be atrocities in the modern day against Christians and Jews in Islamic and Communist countries. It’s a difficult one. What about the IOC making a statement to be read out at the start of every Olympics rejecting the totalitarianism that we have seen since the Olympics started i.e. under Communism, Nazism and Islam – three bed fellows that brought so much death and destruction to the 20th century.

27 July 2012 at 14:11  
Blogger John Thomas said...

Israel, whatever you think of it, is the last bulwark in the Middle East to rampant expansionist Islamismism, which will reach us before very long. Re-legitimising Israel, by whatever means (the proposed Olympic memorial would seem a useful contribution to this end) is the best way of protecting us (the West). If Israel falls, we surely will (we probably will any way - recent attempts to limit the influence of Sharia law, in Britain, can only be delaying tactics).

27 July 2012 at 14:14  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

corrigan

Because of the unique timing and conjunction of dates.

"The month of Av is the saddest in the Jewish year, and Tisha b’Av the saddest day. On it the two Temples were destroyed, the first in 586 BCE by the Babylonians, the second in 70 CE by the Romans. It is also the day on which Betar – the last stronghold of the Bar Kochba rebellion – fell in 135 CE, and on which, one year later, the Roman emperor Hadrian rebuilt Jerusalem as a pagan city, Aelia Capitolina. In 1492, Tisha b’Av was the day on which Jews were finally exiled from Spain."
(Chief Rabbi Sacks)

"The massacre of eleven Israeli athletes and coaches at the 1972 Olympic Games in Munich was a tragic event in the history of the Olympic Games. But for the Jewish people, Munich 1972 is more than history. It is an event forever etched into the hearts and minds of our collective Jewish memory. History is his story – an event that happened sometime else to someone else. Memory is my story – something that happened to me and is part of who I am. History is information. Memory, by contrast, is part of identity. The eleven Israeli athletes and coaches were targeted not just because of their nationality, but because they were Jews. The attack was carried out on a world stage because it had a global target: the Jewish people. We are a people whose faith is central to our identity. It is therefore not sufficient for the Munich 11 to be remembered simply in the secular setting. It requires an expression of religious remembrance as well."
(Chief Rabbi Sacks)

It can be raked over on another day, I'd say.

27 July 2012 at 14:16  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

I insinuated nothing of the sort; I do not generally throw accusations of anti-semitism about precisely because they are usually intended to close-down debate rather than open it up.

I was merely pointing out that there are comparably "old" events still remembered today by the people and nations most directly affected by them - which is why the Munich Massacre can perfectly well be memorialised by present day Olympians - in memory of other Olympians if they cannot cope with memorialising Jews or Israelis (the reason given in the article).

27 July 2012 at 14:58  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

I also fail to see how the legitimate memorial of a massacre could be used to advance anti-Semitism except where it is already present, in which case the Israelis are, frankly, damned whatever they do, and may as well campaign for the memorial of their dead.

The Jewishness is precisely relevant to this situation. Had the team been a group of black athletes, would anyone seriously give credence to the idea that a memorial would be inappropriate because some nations have racialist governments, or that remembering a black man's murder somehow hindered our ability to recognise the murder of white men in other situations?

I think not.

27 July 2012 at 15:02  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

"What about the IOC making a statement to be read out at the start of every Olympics rejecting the totalitarianism that we have seen since the Olympics started i.e. under Communism, Nazism and Islam – three bed fellows that brought so much death and destruction to the 20th century."

A very good idea Shacklefree.

27 July 2012 at 15:06  
Blogger Stephen Foot said...

...just why is this proposal being put forward anyway? And after so long? Is there political advantage to someone in this?

Only rarely in a lifetime come moments which test our character. Those moments that happen in private test our integrity, those which occur under public scrutiny test our bravery.

Jacques Rogge has failed on both counts and in is so doing he has shamed himself, the IOC and all of us who despair at his cowardice. This simple, human act would not have been carried out for political reasons or even on behalf of the murdered Olympians, but to demonstrate the characters of those who will not be bowed by acts of terror.

27 July 2012 at 16:40  
Blogger Minnie said...

Excellent post and timely reminder, Your Grace.
May the victims of that atrocity rest in peace. And 'amen' to the prayer.

27 July 2012 at 17:23  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Thank you, Your Grace. Thank you, friends. A good weekend and a shabbat shalom.

27 July 2012 at 17:40  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

"now dares to mock the words of Christ " Do accuse me in truth..

1. The words were not Our Lord's but His cousin's...and Ernst never mocks God but shows these words equally apply to those that think they are saved by these physical things in any generation but are not (Does circumcision mean the individual is saved anymore than baptism sprinkling on infants.
The Jews had good deeds/works, RC's have penance..Do these things work towards salvation?!!!
Do these help at all, so that we can approach God and say' We did really well, the both of us, in getting me here. I think we can give ourselves a well deserved pat on the back'.

Therefore John's words shows the stick in your eye also..You are as blind as those that John was castigating for believing that mere physical things save anyone but...

Matthew 3:
"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,...."

and

@27 July 2012 14:06"

2. Do try to keep your ID's under control..There's a nice Dickie.

Ernst S Blofeld

27 July 2012 at 18:17  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Blowfly

The Bible - all of it - is the word of God. You mocked it in a vain attempt to score points. And you displayed an ignorance of Catholicism and of Judaism.

And Inspector Pirouette, as requested by our host, stop these vain and unfounded ramblings about my identity.

27 July 2012 at 20:43  
Blogger bluedog said...

An excellent and balanced comment from Shacklefree, Your Grace. His suggestion makes complete sense.

27 July 2012 at 21:59  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

I too agree with the spirit, insight and suggestion of the earlier post by Shacklefree.

The one qualification I would make is to this:

" ... many Muslim competitors this year would be unwilling to say sorry for what was done in the name of their religion because they agree with it."

Surely a more feasible explanation is that they would be too fearful for themselves and their families to break ranks with the fanatics running their countries and/or terrorising them.

Isn't that one of the key lessons of the Holocaust?

28 July 2012 at 01:32  
Blogger len said...

Amen to the prayer by the Rabbi and a prayer for the Peace of Israel.

28 July 2012 at 09:22  
Blogger Kiwi said...

As usual, Cranmer is on the money. Subsequent comments by Carl Jacobs and Shacklefree make valid points; the cowardly IOC have once again missed a golden opportunity to crystallise the essence of what the Olympic Games should be all about - The coming together of many peoples, despite their differences, to fairly compete against each other in a contest of many disciplines - Faster, Higher, Stronger - The original ideal was one of dedication and training to improving one's self by overcoming personal barriers to achieve the ancient Greek ideal of excellence.
In his Sultan Knish blog, Daniel Greenfield, brings to our attention another example of how the all pervading disease of political correctness has infected just about every western organisation on the planet.
“Voula Papachristou was removed from the Greek Olympic team after making one remark on Twitter, but Muslim teams who refuse to in any way compete against Jews are being quietly accommodated.
The BBC , of all places, lends credence to this by mentioning as a genteel aside that the Arab and Muslim members threatened a walk out if the Israeli athletes were memorialised.
The Lebanese Judo team got a wall built to separate them from the Israeli team. But some forms of bigotry are more acceptable than others.”

28 July 2012 at 11:23  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Kiwi

Er, it was a movable screen placed between practicing teams to protect tactical secrets.

No big deal, according to the Israelis, who also informed us they put sport above politics. Nevertheless they felt compelled to report the 'incident' to Reuters and describe the screen as a "wall".

28 July 2012 at 13:42  
Blogger Kiwi said...

Dodo, you've got it the wrong way round, it was the Lebanese who went to Reuters. This from reuters.com... "The incident arose after Lebanon's two judokas found themselves next to the five Israelis during practice at the official training venue in Redbridge, in east London, said Nitzan Ferraro, spokesman for the Israeli Olympic Committee.

"We started to practice. They came and they saw us - they didn't like it and they went to the organizers," Feraro told Reuters. 'They put up some kind of wall between us. Everyone went on and there was no interaction between us.'
The Lebanese Olympic Committee could not immediately be reached for comment."
But, hey, don't let this 'incident' detract from the real issue as outlined in my previous post regarding the cowardice of the IOC.

28 July 2012 at 14:10  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Kiwi

Are you stupid or just pretending?

The Lebanese went to the officials; the Israelis to Reuters. In fact, as your extract shows, the Lebanese were unavailable for comment.

But, hey, don't let factual accuracy get in the way of proving your point.

28 July 2012 at 15:41  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Oh, and "some kind of wall" turns out to be a portable screen.

28 July 2012 at 15:42  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

"Surely a more feasible explanation is that they would be too fearful for themselves and their families to break ranks with the fanatics running their countries and/or terrorising them.

Isn't that one of the key lessons of the Holocaust?"

Is this not the key reason given, that supposedly decent germans could do or were restricted from speaking out against the nazi's evil, as a justifiable excuse for their country's wicked behaviour towards the Jews, when the enormity of what had happened was known outsid eGermany in high profile??
There is no evidence that this was the case but covering national shame and a moment of historical evil and madness.

It's as laughable and unbelieveable an excuse here as it was then!

The truth is the vast majority agreed with the final solution action as have/do Arabs and the dissenting voices were few and far between either then or now.

Blofeld

28 July 2012 at 17:43  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

And the same applies to ordinary Russians and Chinese under the evil Communist regimes, does it? All guilty of the crimes of evil, repressive regimes?

28 July 2012 at 18:44  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

"And the same applies to ordinary Russians and Chinese under the evil Communist regimes, does it? All guilty of the crimes of evil, repressive regimes?"

Dickie..an aside..

Can you not see the foolish comparison..

Nazi's were knowingly 'democratically' elected by the plebes..the others were not. :-o

Blofeld

28 July 2012 at 19:18  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Oh all knowing one, were they? Hardly majority rule. You are aware of how they corrupted the democratic process?

28 July 2012 at 20:30  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

And how many Arabs have democratically elected their regimes? Yet you hold them accountable! Do be consistent.

28 July 2012 at 21:04  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

"Oh all knowing one, were they? Hardly majority rule. You are aware of how they corrupted the democratic process?" Yes, by making promises the people wanted to hear...never heard what was promised against what they were then suffering, have you...national emasculation via the insistence of those nice french chappies at Versailles. They and we had reaped what we had all sewn. The Holocaust was the consequence reaped of centuries of replacement theology, that culminated in the deafening silence of the pulpits (barring the odd few..Dietrich Bonhoeffer, etc), whether catholic or protestant!

"And how many Arabs have democratically elected their regimes? Yet you hold them accountable! Do be consistent." It is within their DNA, see Genesis for an explanation..Its called Acquiesce (to assent tacitly)!

The regime and populi merely reflect this joint belief (Arabs believed the diaspora meant they were the true people as Muslims having the chosen prophet and God as the Jew had forfeited everything..proof by the loss of the land..Now the hatred has surfaced because the miracle has happened as foretold in Scripture {Ours NOT theirs} that Israel would be brought back into the land..FORGIVEN but in unbelief) and whatever the lack of persecution on a vast scale, this is due to acquiring western Dollars/Euros etc, by and large and biding their time.

Blofeld

29 July 2012 at 12:14  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Blowfly the Deluded

Hitler manipulated his rise to power through the governing classes in Germany not the common man. True the background hatred of Jews in Germany was part of their christian and protestant tradition but the Holocaust was triggered by a neo-pagan religion and not by replacement theology - something you comntinually misrepresent.

And the Arabs hate the Jews because its in their DNA and/or predetermined by God?!

Complete lunacy and no point in discussing any of this further with you!

29 July 2012 at 17:55  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Dodo,

I feel a song coming on :

"Who do you think you are kidding Mr. Hitler?
If you think we're on the run,
We are the boys who will stop your little game.
We are the boys who will make you think again.
'Cus who do you think you are kidding Mr. Hitler?
If you think old England's done?

Mr. Brown goes off to town
On the 8:21.
But he comes home each evening
And he's ready with his gun.

So watch out Mr. Hitler
You have met your match in us.
If you think you can push us
We're afraid you've missed the bus.

so who do you think you are kidding Mr. Hitler?
If you think old England's done!"

29 July 2012 at 20:30  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Dodo @ 17.55 says, 'True the background hatred of Jews in Germany was part of their christian and protestant tradition...'

But Hitler's initial power base was in Munich, capital of profoundly Catholic Bavaria.

Care to explain?

29 July 2012 at 21:44  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

bluedog

It's notdifficult if you know the history of German Catholicism at the time and the history of the early Nazi Party.

Nazism birth is certainly focussed in Munich betweeen 1919 and 1923. Hitlers Party, NSDAP, a different 'animal to full-blown National Socialism, did receive some initial support from Catholics. Most Catholics abandoned nis Party after the ‘Beerhall Putsch’ of November 1923.

The Catholics who gave most support to Hitler actually rejected the Pope and were using religion to promote eugenics. At the time some German Catholics were followers of Johann Döllinger, a Munich theologian excommunicated in 1871 for refusing to accept Vatican I’s dogma of papal infallibility. They believed Germans had to reinterpret Catholic theology for the modern age. They went by the names of “ultramontane” or “political” Catholics.

Not all Catholics in Munich were loyal to Rome or the Church. Those who accepted the Pope tended to be members of the moderate BVP Party and were accused by the anti-papal group of consorting with Jews and atheists.

So, in the early 1920s, there was a clear line of demarcation between two kinds of Catholics in Munich and it was the anti-papal group who tended to join the Nazis.

Martin Luther was repeatedly cited by Hitler as a source of inspiration to him and his politics and especially his views concerning the Jews. Funnily enough, if memory serves, he rejected Papal authority too.

Care to explain this?

29 July 2012 at 22:34  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

29 July 2012 at 23:22  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Hannah

Just in case you missed my message on the other thread:

Do your auntie and uncle know you are up so late playing with your computer? Lucky for you there's no school in the morning. Now off to bed with you.

29 July 2012 at 23:35  
Blogger Manfarang said...

I believe the murdered Israeli
athletes will be remembered at a ceremony in Munich which is as it should be.

30 July 2012 at 04:17  
Blogger Manfarang said...

I once met a young Palestinian, when I was in the Middle East, who was related to one of the gunman.
His comment-"Oh it was successful-we killed Jews"

30 July 2012 at 04:22  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Dodo @ 22.34 said, 'The Catholics who gave most support to Hitler actually rejected the Pope and were using religion to promote eugenics', and, 'Care to explain'.

But that first sentence apart, and knowing next to nothing about Catholic history in Germany post World War 1, it seems possible this movement may have influenced Hitler, the Austrian who fought in the German Army. As a Catholic, it is not surprising that Hitler settled in Catholic Bavaria after the Great War, rather than in Lutheran Berlin.

As far as this communicant understands, there is a philosophical food chain where Hitler is concerned that starts with his interest in German Idealism. In particular Hitler was a student of Johann Gottlieb Fichte, himself a student of Kant. Fichte is notoriously anti-semitic and called the Jews a state within a state, believing that they should not be granted civil rights in Germany.

It is considered that Fichte, who was at one point sacked for atheism, derived his anti-semitism from Luther. As you will shortly tell me if I don't tell you now, Luther became increasingly anti-semitic in his declining years, apparently embittered by the refusal of Jews to convert to Christianity in response to his own post-Catholic ministry. As a former Catholic priest, Luther would have been familiar with the Catholic doctrines of his time including the belief that the Mosaic covenant was fulfilled and replaced by a new covenant in Christ.

The German Idealist movement flirted with paganism and harked back to a mythical age of German innocence in the forests. If you have never lived in Germany it's hard to understand but there is an essence of German-ness that seems to this communicant to consist of speaking German, walking in forests and mountains, eating wild boar, drinking beer and recognising that Asia begins at the Polish border. This German-ness feeling is expressed in a belief of nationality through ius sanguinis rather than the French idea of nationality by ius soli. Ius soli, literally of the soil, means if you are born in a country, that is your nationality. Ius sanguinis posits that nationality is derived from a blood-line. If one adds the concept of ius sanguinis to the latent anti-semitism which was clearly extant in Luther's time and ultimately absorbed by Hitler via JG Fichte, the result is the Holocaust.

Which doesn't explain the prevalence of ius sanguinis in the Jewish identity!

30 July 2012 at 10:34  
Blogger Roger Pearse said...

Shacklefree wrote: I’m in two minds about this one. On one side I’d love to see the commemoration and the prayer and to watch to Muslims walk out. It would make it clear to the world that their agenda is the death of every Jew in the world and that with the establishment of a new set of dictators in the Arab world coming into power, the world will soon be set for Armageddon. On the other hand, the Olympic movement is about including all people of all nations.

Precisely.

30 July 2012 at 11:53  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

bluedog

You asked me:

"But Hitler's initial power base was in Munich, capital of profoundly Catholic Bavaria.
Care to explain?"


And above you've appear to have answered your own question.

You know Germany. I know a bit of the history of German Catholicism. I've hope I've explained the nature of the Catholics who supported Hitler in the eraly days of his rise to power.

" Which doesn't explain the prevalence of ius sanguinis in the Jewish identity!

Jewish identity and culture comes from Judaism, the religious system of God's Chosen nation, and its promises of an eternal Holy Land and Zion. So for the Jews there is no distinction between land and blood line.

30 July 2012 at 23:38  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Ps

Does Asia start at Poland??

30 July 2012 at 23:38  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Dodo ask, 'Does Asia start at Poland??'

First, where does Poland start?

There are many voices in Germany who mourn the loss of Pomerania and Silesia, to say nothing of East Prussia, the latter still represented by a Russian enclave within Poland.

The starting point of Asia is open to question. Are we talking geography, ethnology, culture or religion? After all, Christianity has its roots in Western Asia (Israel).

31 July 2012 at 10:45  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

bluedog

Does it really matter?

I was taught "Asia", something of an artificial construct, starts somewhere east of Russia - the Urals? - there being an western, central and eastern Europe.

What about Eurasia??

And yes, according to the geography I was taught Israel is in Asia.

31 July 2012 at 21:37  

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