Tuesday, July 03, 2012

Arrested at 9.30am, tried in secret court, imprisoned by 6.30pm

And we’re not talking historically about Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia. Or even presently about Communist China, North Korea or the Mullah regime of Iran. Believe it or not, this summary dispensation of ‘justice’ occurred yesterday in the Wirral, Merseyside, and the prisoner is a British subject by the name of Roger Hayes, Chairman of something called the British Constitution Group. Here he is, in full flight:



Now, you might think this man to be eccentric, weird or a nutter. He sounds as though he votes UKIP, so you might agree with the Prime Minister that he is a ‘fruitcake’, ‘loony’ or ‘closet racist’. Some will put him in the David Icke category of world-domination conspiracy theorist (minus the lizards). Others will hear the word ‘Bilderberg’, and thereafter dismiss the man’s entire gamut of grievances and concerns.

But he actually talks a great deal of constitutional sense. Yet whatever you think of the man’s message, it transpires that he has been withholding his council tax on account of the fact that ‘a proportion of the tax revenue gathered is being sent to the European Union, used to fund unlawful wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria, and promote terrorism right around the world’. He believes that ‘to pay tax under these circumstances is, at the very least, unlawful under Section 15(3) of the Terrorism Act 2000’.

Fair enough.

His Grace demurs on the rendering of that which belongs to Caesar, but (as far as he is aware) the belief that the British Government is complicit in terrorism or war crimes is not against the law, and the non-payment of council tax is not a crime which negates one’s legal rights: it needs to be dealt with in the usual manner, through the Magistrates' Court of petty sessions.

But Roger Hayes has been arrested, tried and imprisoned all within nine hours – no Habeas Corpus, no trial by jury, no public hearing, and no witnesses called for the defence. At the time of writing the charges are unknown, but in the absence of those for terrorism or issues of national security; with no allegations of torture or rendition; and with no children involved in a ‘family court’ closed hearing, it beggars belief that of all our traditional and hard-won juridicial checks and balances going back to Magna Carta can be so easily dispensed with, such that a British subject of Her Majesty can have his liberty removed at a whim.

Apparently, so swift was the process that the first Mr Hayes’ family heard of his plight was yesterday evening ‘via a telephone call from a Warder in Liverpool prison, to say that Roger had been tried and sentenced to prison’. They must have been utterly distraught.

This is a gross offence against Human Rights: secret court proceedings in civil cases are an audacious attack on our ancient rights and liberties. And the use of evidence against individuals which they are unable to challenge (or even see) is antithetical to every Christian notion of justice. It is all the more incomprehensible since both the Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties pledged to oppose Labour’s culture of ‘closed material procedures’.

We read that, as Chairman of the British Constitution Group, ‘Roger Hayes has been an outspoken public speaker warning the British public that their rights and freedoms under Common Law and the Constitution are being stripped away and replaced by a dictatorship of secret courts operating under Administrative and Statute Law.’

Well, now his warning has come to pass: the State can apparently bypass centuries of nuanced jurisprudence and we are returned to the era of the Court of Star Chamber. These are indeed the actions of a police state, the implications of which are profoundly disturbing for us all.

UPDATE: 3 July 2.30pm

It is reported that 'Wirral Council, having issued proceedings against Roger Hayes for non payment of Council Tax, recently decided to enact their right for a Committal Hearing against Roger for his continued non-payment... On Tuesday 26 June 2012 a Committal Hearing took place at which Wirral Council state that Roger failed to appear. As a result the Judge issued a bench warrant for his arrest, and Roger was arrested yesterday morning.'

Right...

UPDATE: 3 July 3.30pm

The stickler-for-facts FullFact.org have dug diligently where His Grace's rakings were unyielding.

What is not yet clear (since it appears to be rather difficult for anyone to visit Mr Hayes) is whether he was informed of the Committal Hearing, and, if so, why he failed to attend. And, moreover, if he was properly informed and simply opted not to attend, why his family should be in any sense surprised by the arrest..

UPDATE 4 July 6.45pm

Courtesy of Witterings from Witney:
Setting to one side whether the strategy of Roger Hayes is the right one or not, what is at stake with this incident is that of justice and how it is administered.

In respect of the sequence of events, Hayes was arrested on Monday morning, taken to a police station for three hours and then taken to directly to court. No listing for that court hearing was posted, Mr Hayes had no legal representation, nor was he permitted any, Mr Hayes was given no opportunity to present a defence, no jury was present and neither was the general public or press present at that hearing. That being the case Mr Hayes was subjected to a ‘star chamber’ and secret court process as correctly stated in the original article. In addition, according to Mr Hayes’ Statement of Fact made in prison this morning, neither was he informed of the court case on Tuesday 26 June at which the bench warrant was issued – thus he did not attend the hearing, nor could he conduct his defence. 

Brian Gerrish has issued a formal complaint to FullFact in regard to the article that appeared on their website yesterday, 3rd July.

It is worth noting that it is stated Hayes had no legal representation, was not permitted any, nor was he provided with an opportunity to present a defence – it is also known that in Family Courts, parents of those children being taken into care are unable to question statements made by local authority children’s services. In his complaint to FullFact, Brian Gerrish refers to a ‘star chamber’ – perhaps a ‘Kangaroo Court‘ would be a better description?

More to follow……..




96 Comments:

Blogger Youthpasta said...

Shocking, truly shocking! But, sadly, when you look at how thing have changed since 1997 maybe shock should be replaced by understanding of the speed at which we have gone from being a liberal society to one that refuses to allow anyone the right to speak "off message". I hope this means David Davis taking Cameron to task in the HoC this week, as he is by far the best orator on such matters.

3 July 2012 at 09:49  
Blogger Bishopsman said...

Part of me knows that some of the fringe readers will criticise me for saying this, but where is the independent verification that the whole thing was as he claims?

Note that we've had trials without juries for hundreds of years (they're called magistrates, and most incidents of the non-payment of council tax would go through them). But if a) it wasn't public and b) he couldn't appeal to a higher court, then that's worrying.

3 July 2012 at 09:49  
Blogger David B said...

Bishopsman saves me the task of composing my own response.

David B

3 July 2012 at 10:12  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
More info please when you get it?
This is just like so many undemocratic regimes including the conservative party, where if you disagree with the leaders, you either physically or metaphorically disappear.

3 July 2012 at 10:19  
Blogger Peter O said...

We need more details. There must be some form of court record - let's get as much info as possible before passing hasty judgement. Perhaps this was a trial date already set? Perhaps it was a different charge then non-payment of CT?

3 July 2012 at 10:21  
Blogger graham wood said...

Pending the verification Bishopsman and others have rightly called for, taken at face value and leaving aside questions about RH's non payment of Council Tax, the arrest is the most shocking expression of the reality of a UK Police state to date.
The arresting authority has much to answer for, and we must raise questions with them pronto.
Why a "secret" arrest, abduction by police, no witnesses, no open trial, and above all else, no writ of Habeas Corpus? All historic elements of what many have fought and died for - freedom from arbitrary arrest and from tyranny by the State. These are all legitimate and well established elements of a true justice system. - namely due process.

MAGNA CARTA. (Clause 39) " No free man shall be taken or imprisoned or dispossessed, or outlawed, or banished, or in any way destroyed..... except by the legal judgment of his peers.
To no one will we sell, to no one will we deny, or delay right or justice.
I suggest the first step is to E mail our own MPs and ask them to call on the authority concerned to justify their actions against Roger.

3 July 2012 at 10:33  
Blogger Marcus Foxall said...

"He sounds as though he votes UKIP."

The same could be said about a certain popular blogger.

3 July 2012 at 10:43  
Blogger Hereward said...

YG
Are you sure there was a secret trial which resulted in his imprisonment in a matter of hours? Might yesterdays events be the execution of an arrest warrant for ignoring earlier court orders?

This Council Tax spat has been ongoing for ages.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1364091/Council-tax-protesters-storm-courtroom-arrest-judge.html

3 July 2012 at 10:49  
Blogger graham wood said...

The two Wirral MPs are:

Alison McGovern (Lab)
Esther McVey (Con)

alison@alisonmcgovern.org.uk

esther.mcvey.mp@parliament.uk

Are they aware of this arrest?
If not, no doubt some of us will enlighten them.

3 July 2012 at 10:50  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

I suspect he was arrested because he ignored the court summons. Non payment of council tax isn't something that usually requires a jury to decide. I very much doubt that it was a secret court - more a matter of this idiot not recognising its authority.

3 July 2012 at 11:26  
Blogger Fractal Angel said...

Actually, there are 4 Wirral MPs: the other 2 are Frank Field (Birkenhead) and Angela Eagle (Wallasey).

3 July 2012 at 11:48  
Blogger Simon Rogers said...

A secret court, really? As a journalist, you will of course have phoned the station and found out where he was arraigned, or contacted the magistrates' court to see what he was charged with, discovered that in fact he was tried secretly and uncovered an international scandal. Either that, or you are a shoddy sensation monger who is mis-reporting a simple case of non-payment of council tax at a magistrate's court. Which is it?

3 July 2012 at 12:14  
Blogger Corrigan1 said...

Worse than the bloody Israelis. I hate the European Union myself, but this is ultimately not so much down to them as the natural and entirely foreseeable result of that great English tradition, Classical Liberalism, or as it is known today, neo-Liberalism. When you have a political philosophy based on the notion that the public square should be left empty of any societal underpinning, what you have is the defence of nothingness. Since nature abhors a vaccuum, that nothingness will fill up with every piece of garbage, filth and sewerage known to man. Of course, those who occupy the nothingness will not think of themselves in those terms, so they will, of course, see nothing at all wrong with star chamber justice. It is, after all, not as though we secular liberals cannot be trusted with such unexamined powers. I mean, we're not Arabs or South Americans, for God's sake, or worse still, religious believers. No, no, of course modern, enlighted people such as us can be completely trusted not to abuse powers like these, can't we?

3 July 2012 at 12:33  
Blogger Atlas Shrugged said...

tory boys never grow up said...
I suspect he was arrested because he ignored the court summons. Non payment of council tax isn't something that usually requires a jury to decide. I very much doubt that it was a secret court - more a matter of this idiot not recognising its authority.

3 July 2012 11:26

Are you sure that he is either an idiot, or that the court has due authority?

Do we not already have countless examples of the local and national government breaking its own laws?

Are you a constitutional lawyer?

Thought not.

However as you clearly have a PC you can find out the facts of the case for yourself.

While doing so you can also click on You Tube and listen to what The Constitution Group, and people like honest police officers, and retired naval commanders have to say on the issues involved. By so doing hopefully you will stop talking from the bottom end of your alimentary canal.

It is of course perfectly obvious that this extremely brave and forthright individual is attempting to make a political point.

He has plenty of supporters and access to free legal advice, therefore we await the outcome with interest.

Are you personally happy that you are being forced to pay to sponsor terrorism, and torture in various places around the planet? may I remind you that doing so is not only highly illegal it is even more highly immoral.

3 July 2012 at 13:29  
Blogger Chris said...

More details please, it seems strange and surprising if all is true.

With holding your taxes? I'm sure that's mentioned as not a very good thing to do in our Bible :)

Honestly though, justice.... !?!

3 July 2012 at 13:42  
Blogger Atlas Shrugged said...

Also Mr tbngu

I assume by your avatar that you consider yourself of the left, or worse a Marxist.

Perhaps you are too young to remember a time when the left stood in many ways for the exact opposite that it does so stridently today.

The principles of libertarianism for example were most surely of the left only 30 years ago. However over this time liberty, and the principles of natural justice under Common Law have been ever more squeezed by the left as well as the right.

These principles are now only holden within the consciousness of ordinary citizens, most especially British ones that were brought up under the understanding that they were born unto an essentially Free Nation.

These people are neither left nor right, they are the only thing that stands between freedom and outright tyranny for all, and there numbers are growing daily.

3 July 2012 at 13:49  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

Atlas

Of course I had already looked at what this idiot had done in the past (the Wirral News website has the full history) - including trying citizens arrests of judges

Yes I am of the left (a social democrat rather than a Marxist if you are can understand the distiction) - but I am not of the Toy Town Trot variety who like this idiot glory in futile gestures. He is more than entitled to make his political point without breaking the law or not paying his taxes. If there were no other channels available to him for him to make his point then he might have my sympathy.

The real left won democracy in this country through their struggles - and it would dishonour their memory not to first make use of what they have achieved. I should also add that in my experience most libertarians (at least those who use that label today) tend just to be interested in their own selfish liberty to damage that of others.

3 July 2012 at 14:21  
Blogger Fausty said...

Thank you for tackling this issue, YG.

Watch your back.

To all those who ask for more information, why not do your own research?

Why not try to disprove it, citing evidence for your assertions?

Is the issue Soviet 'justice' being potentially imposed on us all not important enough?

3 July 2012 at 14:21  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

As far as I can tell, this story consists of 1) a statement on the BCG website and 2) an whole raft of weblogs referring to the statement on the BCG website. I haven't even found a statement from the police confirming the arrest. Now in fact it is almost certain that this man has been arrested. The BCG would look ridiculous for such a statement if it was all false. But the rest of it smells like pro-active spin; the attempt of a marginal political group to create a political martyr in order to gain some political traction.

As a general rule, I don't trust reports of the police being used to silence political opposition. A professional police force isn't going to let itself be used in that way. To suggest they have become the Stasi is a severe insult to their professionalism and integrity. And, oh btw, if they really were the Stasi, people would be afraid to make all these accusations. The freedom of the criticism is the principle evidence against the truth of the accusation. There is going to be a much more pedestrian explanation for this arrest - like perhaps he was guilty of a crime. Imagine that. The police arrest people who commit crimes. Who would have thought it?

carl

3 July 2012 at 14:28  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

And so it seems TBGNU was correct. The BCG has just "Updated" their statement.

The facts of Roger's committal to prison are slowly emerging. It seems that on Tuesday 26 June 2012 a Committal Hearing took place at which Wirral Council state that Roger failed to appear.

As a result the Judge issued a bench warrant for his arrest, and Roger was arrested yesterday morning. The Council spokesman either did not know or refused to name the Judge.

Following his arrest Roger was brought before a Magistrate and sentenced to 21 days.


Yes, that STASI persecution angle is looking mighty credible at the moment.

carl

3 July 2012 at 14:42  
Blogger David B said...

Assuming Carl is right, and it certainly rings true, then it looks as if this was a storm in a teacup.

If people don't turn up for hearings, then unless they have good reason, like being run over by a bus, then both my sympathy for them, and concern about the situation diminishes rather abruptly.

David B

3 July 2012 at 14:47  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

3 July 2012 at 14:55  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

3 July 2012 at 15:13  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Archbishop Cranmer

Right...

You seem skeptical. The statement is on the BCGs own website. Why should they lie?

carl

3 July 2012 at 15:15  
Blogger Galant said...

With regards the origin of the initial article, I checked the time stamp on the blog post and it was a later posting than the one on the page linked by Cranmer. I suppose an update might have occurred to provide a later time stamp but it didn't seem that way. It suggests Cranmer's link is the original article.

3 July 2012 at 15:50  
Blogger Keith said...

After what happened last time (thank you hereward for the link) I'm not surprised this time they did it in secret. Here's a summary:
* Man refuses to pay council tax
* Man is taken to court
* Huge group of protesters storm court, paying no respect to the authority of the court or the rule of law that gave the court that authority
* Trial has to be abandoned and rescheduled
* Next time round, court hearing is kept hush-hush to prevent a repeat performance
* The same people who disregarded the rule of law by storming the court now try to rely on the rule of law (i.e. the Magna Carta) to complain that the hearing was kept hush-hush.

And all because one man refused to pay his council tax, an action that is clearly illegal, selfishly motivated, and (if everyone did it) would ultimately have a detrimental effect on his local community.

Here's the link to the previous court action:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1364091/Council-tax-protesters-storm-courtroom-arrest-judge.html

3 July 2012 at 16:01  
Blogger Atlas Shrugged said...

Yes, that STASI persecution angle is looking mighty credible at the moment.

carl

3 July 2012 14:42

Did you know that several months ago Roger Hayes succeeded in having a judge arrested for treason under common law, yet the judge simply absconded via the back door, under the protection of thugs employed by a private security company?

He is clearly making a political point, you know the sort of thing you lefties used to do before your collective brainwashing was completed by ultra 'right/left' wing socialists ( Fabians ) like Blair, and Brown.

Cameron is of course of the exact same persuasion, a fact of modern life not lost on people like Roger Hayes and Brian Gerrish.

The British Constitution Group is not a Political Party, it is part of Lawful Rebellion which is seeking to use the existing law to hang the establishment that so often abuses it.

Thus, the events of yesterday.

Be thankful that these people have the balls to stand up against growing tyranny, for you can be perfectly assured that neither our political parties nor our establishments mass media will do anything of the kind, even after the cops come knocking on your door.

However if you enjoy the idea of tyrannical government, and think that paying taxes to finance the murder and torture of brownish coloured people is a good idea, then please feel free to ignore my comments, and don't forget to pay your Fabian Society dues on time.

3 July 2012 at 16:02  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Atlas

you know the sort of thing you lefties used to do

Me? On the Left?? BWA-HA-HA-HA-Ha-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA. [Shriek GASP] HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA.

[Gasp Gasp Gasp]

HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA. [Clutches side. Writhes in pain]. HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA.

[Cough]

Ahem.

[Dusts self off]

Atlas, my political opinions trace their origins to that Grand English Statesman, the Right Honorable Edmund Burke - Esteemed man of the Left, Jacobian Extraordinaire, proto-Marxist before there was a Marx. Yes, you have found me out. I'm on the Left alright.

In the meantime, you can continue finding a conspiracy in the issuance of a bench warrant for failure to appear before a judge. It's an ever so credible story.

carl

3 July 2012 at 16:21  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Do the time if you do the crime. :)

3 July 2012 at 17:00  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
Never mind the eventual outcome of the truth of this story, Tory Boys should be very careful before he calls someone an idiot.

Individuals who have stood firm against the state have created the freedoms that we have today but were called rebel’s at the time.

The Barons who stood up against the King and gained his signature on the Magna Carter is one group and Martin Luther stood up against the Church and was called a heretic but stood his ground to be the forerunner of the Protestant movement.

It is those who wish to maintain the status quoi who oppose such behaviour. We have all been lemmings to allow the state to snare us into unlimited control instead of freedom.

3 July 2012 at 17:00  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

carl

Are you a Jesuit ;o) ?

Of course you have to deny it - which really just proves you are. And if you do admit it, its only because you've been discovered.

3 July 2012 at 17:12  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Dodo

I can neither confirm nor deny any alleged association between the Jesuits and myself. I can however state categorically that there are no Roman Catholics in the United States. Their noxious presence has been removed through the expedient of issuing conspiratorial bench warrants.

carl

3 July 2012 at 17:24  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

"Tory Boys should be very careful before he calls someone an idiot."

I agree and I was - I read the guys various web sites and previous news reports on his activities, including what he said during the General Election.

3 July 2012 at 17:34  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

I should add that there are many here who I disagree with - and as a rule I try to avoid offence otehr than by the expression of my views.

3 July 2012 at 17:37  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Your Grace. Despite the apparent facts of case, we have had valuable experience in the form of a drill. The Inspector concurs with the prevailing opinion on this thread. No court in the UK should sit in secret unless under exceptional circumstances, and even then only with the dispensation of the Minister of Justice, and the reasons for doing so duly published. Too much at sake, far too much…

Stand down chaps…

3 July 2012 at 17:51  
Blogger Atlas Shrugged said...

Dear Carl

I am glad you are amused, so now that you have confirmed your credentials and regained your composure maybe you could try to address the issues concerned.

If the cap does not fit, you are not obliged to wear it.

However whether you consider yourself to be a conservative or not is of little relevance. I suggested that freedom has been marginalized from both the right and left over a long period of time.

Freedom is divided between both left and right, yet the establishment chooses the authoritarian property rights destroying path between the two at all times excepting that which adversely affects the interests of the establishment.

Capitalists are almost as brainwashed as socialists, as they both tend to believe that these act in some kind of opposition to each other. The exact same is true with respect to Theists and Atheists, Christians, Muslims and Jews, Black, Brown, Yellow, and White, rich and poor, male and female, old and young.

Indeed our society is now so divided from itself it is ever more surprising that it still functions at all.

However this may not be the case for much longer. Which is why OUR LAWS are being ever more ignored, and gradually replaced by THEIR LAWS.

As for the update.

I have no first hand knowledge of what exactly Mr Hayes thought would happen, however I will make an educated guess.

I believe that he may have believed that the relevant authorities would have chosen to obey the law given the publicity this will inevitably attract. Or at least think several more times before acting.

Having said that this man is extremely brave judging by his pass recent actions in having a judge arrested for treason, and so is likely quite reasonably content to be making his point so soon.

It is after all only 21 days, and people like Roger Hayes have in the not so distant past laid down their very lives for no less.

One could very well argue several million people over the last two world wars. Therefore a relatively small price to pay.

The movement is LAWFUL REBELLION not UNLAWFUL REBELLION. It is now highly illegal to sponsor terrorism knowingly or otherwise.

3 July 2012 at 17:51  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

Mr Integrity

The rebels you referred to quite rightly fought for the legitimate right to habeas corpus (i.e being arrested without charge) and also for taxation not be levied unless approved by parliament. And if you look at the BCG’s website you will see that it refers to relevant sections of the Magna Carta and the Declaration of Right. So perhaps when someone tries to claim the support of those documents as an argument for not being arrested when charged for payment of a tax which has been levied by Parliament – the idiot description might be seen as fairly kind. My Chartist ancestors (and a distant relative at Peterloo) also fought for a truly democratic parliament – so when I see people invoking their struggles as a reason for undermining and ignoring the democratic institutions that they created, rather than seeking to use them, perhaps you might see why I also give such individual pretty short shrift – wherever they may claim to come from on the political spectrum.

To strike a slightly contrary note, it is perhaps worth remembering the one unfulfilled Chartist demand for annual parliaments – given that this government has introduced a fixed 5 year parliament, compared with the 4 year norm that we used to have and is now proposing a 15 year term for the 2nd chamber. All of which has never been put before the electorate. Not that I saw many here standing up for that encroachment on our democracy.

3 July 2012 at 17:58  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

Two points, though agreeing with YG that this is disgracefuk.
ONE: Has anyone even thought about making a peaceful "Legitimate" protest against the "olympics"?
It can't be done - you will immediately be jailed for "terrorism"
TWO: erm ...
"And the use of evidence against individuals which they are unable to challenge (or even see) is antithetical to every Christian notion of justice."
WRONG
Given the history od err, witch-trials, the inquisition, Jean Calvin and all the other religious torture-&-death-courts that have existed.
And still exist under the religion of islam.

3 July 2012 at 19:09  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

carl

Understood - the old double/double bluff, eh? Just remember the distress code should it be required.

Inspector

There is a certain familiarity to this reported experience - dawn arrest, secret trial, no right of defense and imprisonment. All rather British too.

3 July 2012 at 19:22  
Blogger non mouse said...

Chris @ 13:42 I'm sure that's [withholding taxes] mentioned as not a very good thing to do in our Bible :)
I envy you your certainty. I always suspected Christ as being a tad ambiguous on that; not to mention ironic.

20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? 21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. (Matthew 22:20-22. KJV)
My point is that absolutely nothing in this world is Caesar's --- everything is God's. And if we worship a human image, then we commit idolatry....

Oh -- and may I remind everyone that this week the Americans celebrate their Independence ... because of a bunch of British people refused to impoverish themselves by paying taxes to Powers from overseas (even if the taxmen did puport to represent other British people).

It's not a new idea. I say we should all stop paying the euSSR. Pronto.

Oh ... and the ptb that call this undefended man "Roger" ... if they named the JUDGE, would that be on a first-name basis also?

3 July 2012 at 19:26  
Blogger non mouse said...

sigh... "people who refused..."

3 July 2012 at 19:28  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. As you will appreciate, the Inspector merely posts here from the past, 1912 to be precise. Nothing ‘British’ about it at all. This kind of jackanapes was forced upon us by the Germans trying to match our navy. Secrecy is everywhere you know. There was a time when a fellow could have written to the Admiralty requesting the disposition of the fleet. And he would have got it too !

3 July 2012 at 19:38  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Atlas

maybe you could try to address the issues concerned.

What issues? This whole story seems to be nothing but the following:

1. A man refuses to pay taxes.
2. The man is ordered to appear before a judge about this refusal to pay taxes.
3. The man fails to appear as ordered.
4. The judge issues a bench warrant.
5. The police execute the bench warrant.
6. The judge sentences that man to 21 days in jail.

Beyond that, I see nothing but an over-reaction about alleged threats to liberty. This is all very normal and ordinary stuff. The fact that the man involved has a political axe to grind doesn't mean anything in particular at all. He doesn't get a pass on violating the law simply because he fashions himself some sort of 'lawful rebel.'

I also hate seeing Law Enforcement professionals slandered in this manner. And, no, the choice of the word 'slander' was not hyperbole.

carl

3 July 2012 at 20:59  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Good show Carl, taking on Agatha Christie like that. Now, about that grassy knoll...

3 July 2012 at 21:06  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

non mouse
You'll have Ernsty after you if you go suggesting Jesus was being ironic. St Paul also teaches we should defer to the authority of the State.

However, you do have a point about withholding taxes. Think of the money we give to the State for direct acts against God. How much is spent on abortion? How much on promoting homosexuality?

3 July 2012 at 21:36  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector

"Loose lips sink ships", old man!

My lad reminds us of this when he radio phones from distant parts of the world and we enquire where he is.

Oh, and of course we all know who was on the "grassy knoll" - he wearing of the cowl made it obvious.

3 July 2012 at 22:48  
Blogger ENGLISHMAN said...

At what point can we "legally"oppose tyranny?No taxation without representation,are we represented?certainly not by the criminals who inhabit westminster,for they take thier instructions from brussels,which in itself is contrary to our laws,and an organisation that we can have no influence upon,as the gang of four call the shots and are laws unto themselves,and despite paying no taxes themselves,dictate that we must under pain of imprisonment,have instituted an organisation against the will of the population of europe by lies and deceit,and dragged us all to the point of penury,should we not then,resist?

4 July 2012 at 09:38  
Blogger bluedog said...

Your Grace, from your two updates, it does seem that Mr Hayes is digging a rather large hole for himself.

4 July 2012 at 10:23  
Blogger The Justice of the Peace said...

The account according to Full Facts is not uncommon in all magistrates` courts in England. There is a final sanction against those who refuse for whatever reason to pay their share of council expenses, ie Council Tax and that is a custodial sentence. People such as this individual cannot be treated any differently than any other non payers because of their supposed beliefs.

4 July 2012 at 14:15  
Blogger non mouse said...

Your Grace,

Perhaps Mr. Hayes could have been wiser in his approach to the Aliens' Tax-Collectors. We won't know until the full story is unearthed, as you seem to suggest.

Therefore, I am also in tune with your initial response. There is a sense that the euSSR's power and dominion -- its grasp of all we no longer possess -- will brook no opposition. For the moment, these alien ways present a mask of legality, but the empirical evidence is that euro "law-making" renders visible a product of invisible, underground machinations. Were it not so, we wouldn't have arrived, unawares, in this pickle of subjugation.

So thanks to you, and to Mr. Hayes, for throwing a light into their network of tunnels. I hope that, in the end, we may rescue some of our resources, and perhaps minimise the subsidence.

4 July 2012 at 18:39  
Blogger non mouse said...

PS: Mr. bluedog -just saw your comment of 10:23!

While not advocating bloodsport, I suggest that the original purpose of hunting addressed practical principles we ignore at our peril--as all good dogs show us!!

Viewed in that spirit, your comment, and this topic, brought to mind some lyrics of "Do Ye Ken John Peel":
For the sound of his horn brought me from my bed
And the cry of his hounds which he oft times led,
Peel's 'view hullo' would awaken the dead
Or the fox from his lair in the morning.
Yes I ken John Peel and Ruby too
Ranter and Ringwood and Bellman and True,
From a find to a check, from a check to a view
From a view to a death in the morning.

Then here's to John Peel with my heart and soul
Let's drink to his health, let's finish the bowl,
We'll follow John Peel through fair and through foul
If we want a good hunt in the morning.


Sigh.

However, if Mr. Hayes and the protestors create a furore in the Wirrall, others might warm to the cause of re-claiming our land.

4 July 2012 at 19:34  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

In addition, according to Mr Hayes’ Statement of Fact made in prison this morning, neither was he informed of the court case on Tuesday 26 June at which the bench warrant was issued – thus he did not attend the hearing, nor could he conduct his defence.

Emphasis mine. Roger Hayes has every incentive to make such a claim. It can't be taken at face value without corroboration. In any case, his statement is almost certainly an equivocation on what it means to be legally "notified." He would like the reader to believe the court intentionally refused to notify him so the court could intentionally create a basis for arrest. That is the one thing that did not happen. Let's see what the court says about whether Hayes was notified. The court certainly possesses legal records to prove that such notifications in fact occurred.

carl

4 July 2012 at 19:57  
Blogger non mouse said...

Mr. Jacobs --- you really seem not to understand that this land has indigenous inhabitants who have a right to maintain their sovereignty.

But then ... that's the true nature of Americans. Those who celebrate Independence today are the ones who stayed in somebody else's country and then set about developing LAW ENFORCEMENT. Presumably that's why it's OK for you to be independent, but for Britain to be subjugated to LAW ENFORCEMENT (and extortion) at the jackboots of the euSSR.

4 July 2012 at 20:09  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

Justice of the Peace - couldn't agree more. If Mr Hayes had wanted a court appearance with all the trimmings then he shouldn't have ignored the summons to attend last Tuesday. He is getting no more or less than the usual due process for his criminal behaviour - it should also be noted that he has evaded justice for over 18 months. I'm surprised that the Court didn't add something to his sentence for his pretty obvious contempt fro our Courts.

Non mouse

Please note that whenever you or others refer to the euSSR - all you really demonstrate is your ignorance of both the EU and the former USSR.

4 July 2012 at 20:28  
Blogger non mouse said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

4 July 2012 at 21:40  
Blogger anna anglican said...

Hi Carl

Your right, as the old song goes ;

"When constabulary duties to be done, to be done
A policeman's lot is not a happy one "

4 July 2012 at 22:24  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Mr Cranmer said ...

"Setting to one side whether the strategy of Roger Hayes is the right one or not, what is at stake with this incident is that of justice and how it is administered".

Quite right too.

If the facts are as presented in the update, then this was not the application of the rule of law and due process was not followed. Very worrying indeed.

4 July 2012 at 23:02  
Blogger bluedog said...

Thank you, non-mouse @ 19.34. 'Do ye ken John Peel' was a song I remember from prinary school. Probably banned now because it refers to hunting with dogs which cannot be permitted in a progressive society. Of course, hunting is what us dogs do!

4 July 2012 at 23:05  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

Dodo

You can take your facts from the Wirral News and FullFacts - or you can take them from the friends of Mr Hayes. I know which I consider the most reliable.

Non Mouse

Perhaps I could take arguments about sovereignty more seriously from people who dont have a track record of ignoring the sovereignty of those of our bodies which are clearly sovereign - do you really think that the local magistrates court and Wallasey council was acting under the authority of the EU and the UN as the wingnut claims!

4 July 2012 at 23:11  
Blogger non mouse said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5 July 2012 at 00:02  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

bluedog

Being a very considered commentator and not being prone to hasty judgement, I will wait to see what further information emerges before reaching a conclusion.

I am sure the 'Bish will dig up the dirt if there is any.

5 July 2012 at 00:26  
Blogger non mouse said...

tbngu@20:28 --- No we do not. Quite the opposite.*

You and your kind are disingenuous in denying that the invader now operates, advances, and expands, by Communist-style Deception; Infiltration; Subversion; Deconstruction (includes corruption); Development and Normalisation of Beneficial Crises, etc; the end being to enforce political union and their "laws." [[As if they don't take enough money from each of us every day]].

By 1989, Communists had advanced by means of these underground ploys and knew that they no longer needed to proceed by force. Your Fabian Brethren had made immense inroads here, as had the Marxist 'Frankfurt-School' in the US. Euro placemen in the unversities, media, and institutions had everything in the bag...see their progeny in such as Cleggeron and the Millipedes. Post Cold War ... well, what is Merkel?

The methodology has been hidden in plain sight for a long time. For confirmation of the techniques, see not only Conrad (1906), Huxley, and Orwell, but also Bezmenov, Freire, and all the Franco-German theoretical claptrap that pervades and infects everything around us. From a receiver's perspective, it's not so clever as you think. Really, it's extremely nasty low cunning.

Grendel provides a good prototypical image for what's happened. And euro-enabling "courts," who demand our life's blood from usurped halls of government, can enjoy no more love or respect than he did.****

euSSR it is.
___________

*I went to the USSR once or twice, did you?

**I also happened upon a section of the Red Guard, once - in Hong Kong, while they were involved in some sort of 'respect' session in front of Mao's image...did you?.
(And I have his Little Red Book buried somewhere hereabouts).

***Did you ever notice the affinity between the Communist China flag and the euSSR's vile rag?

****Don't rely on modern films, though; translate our epic from the Old English.

5 July 2012 at 01:56  
Blogger non mouse said...

Continued: and partly in response to tbngu @ 23:11.

We notice that we no longer make or uphold our own laws; the ultimate 'Enforcement' of the euSSR's creeping law-maiking, is no less evil just because they pretend to let us legislate and administer! We see that liblabcon puppets are neither genuine British Statesmen nor true Parliamentarians; we realise that these noddies do not represent us, the British people.

In present-day cases, neither should we forget that our ancient county boundaries (parts of our identities) have been compromised and redrawn: forming administrative regions that suit the euSSR (between Mrs. Thatcher's day and 1998).

So I think we should resist, if it transpires that some Councils are now constrained to act with the Governor's House, as fellow-traitors -- and especially if they have begun tax-collecting for the foreign oppressor. I note that, in true euSSR fashion, some of this will happen indirectly, e.g. because of their landfill fines; or because of some directive about how we should use electricity, or maybe about how to fish.

We also are not wrong to change our perceptions of a police force that is now armed but is frequently unavailable for our protection. They are no longer our own local "bobbies" -- and one wonders what Sir Robert Peel would say about their behaviour in the present case, since his code included the following:
1.The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.
2.The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon the public approval of police actions.
3.Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observation of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.
4.The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.
5.Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.
6.Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice, and warning is found to be insufficient.
7.Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
8.Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions, and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.
9.The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it
.**

Uh huh. That was our way, when we had fewer official monitors.

We have quite a bit to consider here, then. Meanwhile, I say let's not turn on our own and criminalise them without due process. Perhaps Mr. Hayes wants us to consider whether the process itself has been corrupted by our enemies ... and that the law is unworthy of respect.

Let's not go in for "trial by media," either: that's not part of our 'social contract.'

His Grace is right: this incident is that of justice and how it is administered.


_______________________________
**http://nwpolice.org/inside-new-westminster-police-department/history/

5 July 2012 at 05:15  
Blogger bluedog said...

Good post, non mouse @ 0515.

It's curious how when Britain was a boring mono-culture it was also a very safe society. The BBC would no doubt be able to produce an expert to explain this anomaly away.

Now that the nation's cities are a mass of balkanised ethnicities with diverse agendas we must remember to be thankful for the vibrancy of multi-culturalism. Arming the police is such a small price to pay. Fortunately the police can count on the full co-operation of all communities including our Muslim brothers and sisters.

Sadly, Dixon of Dockgreen would simply be another statistic (DoA) in modern Britain.

5 July 2012 at 09:49  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

Non Mouse

Yes I have experience of the USSR both befora and after its collapse - rather more than one or two visits as well. Also spent quite a bit of time in Hong Kong.

Also Fabians are not the same as the Frankfurt School - have you ever read Marcuse (though I do agree that much of what he wrote is theoretical claptrap btw) or Webb? I very much doubt that you have read much of Orwell either - and if you have you have certainly understood far less.

5 July 2012 at 09:51  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

I might also say that if you had any contact with the police in the former USSR - I think that you might have a slightly different view about the virtues of the UK police.

5 July 2012 at 09:54  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Tory Boy @ 09.51 said, 'Yes I have experience of the USSR both befora and after its collapse - rather more than one or two visits as well.'

So comrade, is it true what they say about Comintern?

5 July 2012 at 09:56  
Blogger Flying Tiger said...

If only he was an anti-white racist from a third world country in the UK illegally. He could then look forward to a government funded holiday for several years whilst the EU did its best to keep him Great Britain at liberty for the term of his shiftless life.

As it is, everything this man has claimed has pretty much been proven true in the matrix of his own persecution.

Disgraceful.

5 July 2012 at 09:56  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

Non mouse

Before pretending to be an expert on Orwell might I suggest that you read this which he wrote in 1947

http://orwell.ru/library/articles/European_Unity/english/e_teu

5 July 2012 at 10:05  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

Bluedog

I wouldn't have a clue - if you think I hold a flag for the former USSR you are very mistaken. And you can seach my many previous postings here and elsewhere if you wish to find proof.

5 July 2012 at 10:10  
Blogger bluedog said...

Thanks, Tory Boy @ 10.10. Couldn't resist trying to wind you up.

On the subject of the eUSSR, the late Wynne Godley, master economist of Cambridge University had this to say about the proposed Euro, '"The central idea of the Maastricht Treaty is that the EC countries should move towards an economic and monetary union, with a single currency managed by an independent central bank. But how is the rest of economic policy to be run? As the treaty proposes no new institutions other than a European bank, its sponsors must suppose that nothing more is needed. But this could only be correct if modern economies were self-adjusting systems that didn’t need any management at all."

"I am driven to the conclusion that such a view – that economies are self-righting organisms which never under any circumstances need management at all – did indeed determine the way in which the Maastricht Treaty was framed," he added. "All that can legitimately be done, according to this view, is to control the money supply and balance the budget… If a country or region has no power to devalue, and if it is not the beneficiary of a system of fiscal equalisation, then there is nothing to stop it suffering a process of cumulative and terminal decline leading, in the end, to emigration as the only alternative to poverty or starvation."

Written in 1992.

Who's a clever boy?

5 July 2012 at 10:20  
Blogger Hereward said...

The EU v USSR

The USSR was created and held together by military force and occupation. The EU operates by stealth, deception, bullying and coercion.
The USSR was governed by unelected people who appointed each other and who were not accountable to anyone. The EU is run by a President and Commission who appoint each other, and are not accountable to anyone least of all the citizens of Europe.
The USSR had a parliament. The Supreme Soviet. It rubber stamped the decisions of the Politburo. The EU parliament is also nothing more than a rubber stamp to “legitimise” the actions of an oligarchical elite that cannot be democratically removed.
The USSR had thousands of apparatchiks all with a vested interest in preserving the system and its Communist ideology. The EU has an army of Eurocrats in lucrative and privileged positions to maintain itself and a statist, Socialist PC ideology in perpetuity.
Welcome to the EUSSR.

5 July 2012 at 10:32  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

Bluedog

I wouldn't disagree with Wynne Godley that if you are going to have a currency union that it is also necessary to have a system for fiscal equalisation as well - just like we need such mechanisms within the UK. Mrs Merkell please note.

I of course share Wynne Godley's view (as do all other Keynesians) that economies are not self righting mechanisms and they therefore do need management. You will perhaps see that this of course highlights one difference between the EU and the former EUSSR but don't tell Hereward as it may disrupt his ridiculous fantasies.

5 July 2012 at 10:47  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

Bluedog

Incidentally the 2nd para you quoted from Wynne Godley offers some explanation as to why Margaret Thatcher was at the time keen to sign Maastricht - some Hayekians were quite keen on fixed exchange rates for the discipline that they imposed on deficit spending.

5 July 2012 at 10:52  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

Hereward

Have you heard of the gulags? Have you any inkling as to what happened to freedom of speech and expression in the USSR? Have you any idea as to how non Russian nationalities were treated in the USSR? Have you any undertsanding of how centralised planning worked (or rather often didn't) in the USSR? Have you a clue about what happened to civil society in the USSR? Have you any idea what happened to religous freedom in the USSR? Have you an inkling of how the KGB infiltrated every fabric of Soviet Society? Have you any idea as to how samizdat worked and the risks people took in its distribution?

Might I suggest that you go away and do rather a lot of reading on the subject and then engage your brain before making otiose comparisons in the future.

5 July 2012 at 11:00  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Tory Boy @ 10.52, as a Keynsian, what are your views on the current austerity programmes being applied in failing Euro based economies?

5 July 2012 at 11:52  
Blogger Hereward said...

TBNGU @11:00

Everyone has heard of the Gulags. You appear to have little concern about the way freedom of speech and expression is diminishing in the EU. Freedom of religion isn't exactly blossoming in the EU either. The screws are being gradually tightened and you know it. There are too many similarities between the EU and the former USSR to dismiss comparision lightly.

If I can't convince you then perhaps the USSR dissident Vladimir Bukovski might:

Some might say my comparison is not accurate because the Soviet Union was an ideological state and the European Union is a practical, pragmatic arrangement. In reality the European Union today is based on a very firm ideology. It's a statist ideology involving the preservation of socialism for ever but also the ideology of political correctness, which has become the rule. One might say that the Soviet Union had a gulag, and as long as a country doesn't have a gulag it cannot be compared with the Soviet Union. I think we already have the beginning of a gulag in the European Union. At least we have an intellectual gulag. When anyone tries to speak his own mind on questions of race or gender, if their views differ from those approved, they will be ostracised, might not be able to occupy a professional job or to publish a book. This is the beginning of the gulag.

5 July 2012 at 12:19  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

There are too many similarities between the EU and the former USSR to dismiss comparision lightly.

I'm frankly not fond of the European Union, but this statement is historical nonsense. When you have a true CHEKA running around shooting people as enemies of the revolution, then you can say there are similarities between the EU and the USSR. When 5% of your population has been arrested and deported to labor camps, then you can say there are similarities between the EU and the USSR. When you have been forcibly stripped of your property, collectivized, and left without food to starve in a Ukrainian winter, then you can say there are similarities between the EU and the USSR. When there is a Great Terror in Europe, then you can say there are similarities between the EU and the USSR. Otherwise you just make yourself look silly.

You will know when the Communists take power. It is always - always - accompanied by extraordinary amounts of bloodshed.

carl

5 July 2012 at 13:35  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

carl

You enjoy shooting fish in a barrel, do you?

5 July 2012 at 15:01  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

Hereward

"You appear to have little concern about the way freedom of speech and expression is diminishing in the EU."

This is your strawman - I am always concerned when freedom of speech and expression is diminished - but that doesn't mean that I automatically form the view the institution concerned is analogous to the USSR and has no democratic legitimacy whatsover. As you may gather I dislike many things that the coalition government in the UK is doing - but I dont actually think they are fascists nor that they have no democratic legitimacy. Democracy was too hard won - to start ignoring it when it doesn't give the results that you like - you use it to make your arguments.

Perhaps you should ask yourself why so many East European countries have been so keen to join the EU. You and Vladimir Bukovsky(who I knew a little from his (UK) past - and have a lot of respect for) are entitled to your views - but I'm afraid they are also subject to challenge as well.

You also seem to be of the impression that I think the EU is a faultless institution - I do not and have never had that view - and in answer to Bluenose I don't (as a Keynesian) support the current austerity programmes - just as many social democrats (and Keynesians within the EU take a similar view). I'm afraid if Mrs Merkel wants a fixed currency area she has to will the means - a little like what happened with Eastern Germany where political union aside the Ossis were brought in with an inflated exchange rate.

5 July 2012 at 15:10  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Dodo

You enjoy shooting fish in a barrel, do you?

You see, I developed a taste for it while arguing with RCs. ;)

Seriously, this comparison is an insult to the victims of places like Kolyma. People make these comparisons because they don't understand what the Soviet Union was like. An 'intellectual gulag' isn't quite the same thing as being starved to death in a gold mine in Siberia. What the Communists did in the 20's and 30's and 40's can be compared to only a few specific historic events. An overly bureaucratic politically-correct nanny-state isn't even on that list, let alone being anywhere near the top of that list.

carl

5 July 2012 at 15:39  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

Carl

I couldn't agree more - the point that is missed is that problems with the Gulag did not stop with the direct victims. When practically every family had someone who went to the Gulags and then also lost someone in WW2 as well - it really still has an effect on the attitudes of all those concerned today.

5 July 2012 at 17:15  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

I'm surprised that no one has commented on what Orwell said about the Roman Catholic Church in his essay on EU - for the record this is one of the few areas where I think he went rather too far.

5 July 2012 at 17:18  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

TBNGU

My daughter recently bought me a book called 'The Whisperers' which I have just started to read. It is a book about private life in Stalin's Russia. The introduction contains this little factoid I had never read before. The victims of Stalin's terror amounted to on average one person for every 1.5 families. Apply that to your own city. The numbers are staggering.

carl

5 July 2012 at 18:13  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

Carl

I have the book by Orlando Figes but have I confess I have only dipped into so far - It makes a lot of use of work by Memorial - who have an English language web site here http://www.memo.ru/eng/index.htm - despite facing constant intimidation from Putin and his friends (old habits die hard).

The important point is that the figure you give is probably only the direct victims and the effect on the rest of the family has to be taken into account e.g. the husband/wifes who divorced, the children who were put in orphanges, the innocent who couldn't get decent jobs and education and suffered reduced rations together the shame they were made to feel. Even today there are people who have their mothers rather than their fathers names, who have relatives in distant towns who they have never seen and still keep silent that they have missing relatives. On a brighter note, I do remember being told by someone in the Far East how his employees were samrter than those in Moscow and Petersburg - because of course Stalin get the brighter ones there.

5 July 2012 at 20:52  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5 July 2012 at 20:53  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

Carl

I have the book by Orlando Figes but have I confess I have only dipped into so far - It makes a lot of use of work by Memorial - who have an English language web site here http://www.memo.ru/eng/index.htm - despite facing constant intimidation from Putin and his friends (old habits die hard).

The important point is that the figure you give is probably only the direct victims and the effect on the rest of the family has to be taken into account e.g. the husband/wifes who divorced, the children who were put in orphanges, the innocent who couldn't get decent jobs and education and suffered reduced rations together the shame they were made to feel. Even today there are people who have their mothers rather than their fathers names, who have relatives in distant towns who they have never seen and still keep silent that they have missing relatives. On a brighter note, I do remember being told by someone in the Far East how his employees were samrter than those in Moscow and Petersburg - because of course Stalin get the brighter ones there.

5 July 2012 at 20:53  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

If anyone wants to read an account of the wider impact of the Gulags on a single family I can reccommend Stalin's Children by Owen Matthews

5 July 2012 at 20:55  
Blogger bluedog said...

Tory Boy @ 15.10 said, '...and in answer to Bluenose I don't (as a Keynesian) support the current austerity programmes - just as many social democrats (and Keynesians within the EU take a similar view).'

But there is no answer to your dilemma within the current structure of the EU. The Mastricht Treaty provided for agreed limits to government debt but remained silent on private debt. As a consequence, once private debt ran out of control and was socialised we arrived at the Eurozone sovereign debt crisis. The solution is well understood, a federal Europe under one government creating a true and necessary sovereign for the Euro to survive. But this model collides with the reality of French politics and that of the other large Latin states, Italy and Spain. Only Spain is prepared to surrender to Brussels, at present, but one suspects that desire will vanishin a cloud of tear gas shortly.

All of which leads to the only viable alternative model, being the accession to the Federal German Republic of complying states in an act of Super-Anschluss. Candidates include the Finns, the Dutch (Dutch, Deutsch - what's the difference?), and the Austrians of course. Flanders may secede from Belgium to join the Netherlands, thus further expanding the Federal Republic.

His Grace has long prophesied the emergence of a EuroMark zone. It draws ever closer. Merkel's expansive gesture of bailing out the Latins will either bankrupt Berlin or see her politically defeated before that event.

This communicant does not believe that the German people will write a blank cheque to bankrupt themselves and forsees Merkel's defeat as a consequence.

5 July 2012 at 22:16  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

Bluedog

I can think of other solutions than the one you envisage - and more importantly so can many on the left in Europe - both inside and outside Germany. You are assuming that the structure of the EU remains fixed ( i don't think anyone is arguing that will be the case) - and that writing cheques leads to bankruptcy. You also seem to have a strange view that all federations are alike.

5 July 2012 at 22:52  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Tory Boy @ 22.16. There are indeed many alternative models for the EU, including total dissolution. However, note the careful qualification, '...the only viable alternative model'.

'Viable' being the operative word.

I concede (watching, Mr Dodo?) that the EU cannot continue in its current form. I also recognise that it will take the Left until well after any event to come to terms with reality.

It was ever thus.

6 July 2012 at 00:11  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

Bluedog

The only thing that I can see has always been the case is a tendency of the right (religous or otherwise) to believe that by force of their pronouncements alone they can dismiss all alternatives without resort to reason or argument.

6 July 2012 at 09:42  
Blogger bluedog said...

Thank you, Mr Tory Boy @ 09.42, your comments clearly exclude me.

Given the volumes of substantiation freely provided but not reciprocated by yourself, I conclude than there is a tendency of the Left (atheist or otherwise) to believe that by force of their pronouncements alone they can dismiss all alternatives without resort to facts or reasoned argument.

Please don't feel any inhibition about putting forward your own ideas for resolving the Euro debacle. None has been seen as yet.

Or are you a perpetual critic who prefers never to take a stand because ego-tripping at others expense is a buzz?

6 July 2012 at 10:11  
Blogger non mouse said...

For Your Grace’s general record: This strand provides an opportunity for me to comment on the Deconstructionist practice of meconnaissance and its relationship to the “straw man.” Several of Your Grace’s non-communicants regularly apply this fallacy.* I believe, therefore, that we communicants do well when we identify attempts to subvert arguments rather than Quarere Verum!

In that spirit, may I note two examples of the tactic. Although so accused:
1) I claim no specialist knowledge of Orwell. On this strand (July 5 @ 01:56), I based part of a statement on his commonly known books - Animal Farm (1945) and Nineteen Eighty-Four (1949). Though I did not cite the novels specifically, I listed Orwell among writers whose work displays “methodology” for inception and development of communist/totalitarian government.** I did so because some of us stand willing to identify and confute that process as practiced by our euroMasters, and because Mr. Hayes might be one such person.
2) I do not maintain that British Fabians = the American-Frankfurt school of Marxist theory/praxis. In the same post, however, I proceeded from the premises that i) both sprang from Marxist roots; ii) both have encouraged varieties of Marxism while infiltrating institutions and subverting their societies. I point this out because the subversion effects gradual displacement of western civilisation in general, and invasion of our own culture in particular.

That is to say: the accusations trivialise my arguments, which the attacker then purports to demolish. In fact, the misrepresentions serve to distract from the points I actually made.

______________________

* Of course, attack is the opposition’s purpose in posting here, so they sometimes distract attention from their own ploy by accusing others of it. Good ol’ trompe l’oeils, innit.

**I am not alone in this perception. On checking a basic source, I find in reference to 1939: “By this stage Orwell saw himself primarily as a political writer, a democratic socialist who avoided party labels, hated totalitarianism, and was to become more and more disillusioned with the methods of communism: . . . (“Orwell.” The Oxford Companion to English Literature. Ed. M. Drabble. 6th ed. Oxford: OUP, 2000.)

6 July 2012 at 21:40  
Blogger bluedog said...

Good work, non mouse @ 21.40. Pearls before swine?

6 July 2012 at 21:53  
Blogger non mouse said...

ty, Mr. b @ 21:40 :)

Pearls before swine?. Oh, by definition, methinks - on the one hand. On the other, perhaps I hope to sustain awareness...

6 July 2012 at 22:07  

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