Sunday, July 01, 2012

EU Referendum - NOTHING has changed

Good grief, the MSM is full of it today. The Prime Minister has written an article for the Telegraph in which he says a referendum on Britain's EU membership may be a possibility in the future - 'when the time is right' - and it is as though he has made in irreversible, un-U-turnable, cast-iron guarantee that it shall be so.

David Cameron is not God: when he speaks, he does not bring matter into being ex nihilo. Indeed, it is not at all clear what he said that's new, or in any way significant, or that is not being uttered ahead of next year's elections to the European Parliament simply to shoot the UKIP fox (or another Fox).

Let us examine the contents of this seismic article.
It is vital for our country — for the strength of our economy, for the health of our democracy and for the influence of our nation — that we get our relationship with Europe right.
Well done, Prime Minister. Except for the fact that we are well and truly 'in Europe' - associated and absorbed, so to talk of a 'relationship' is a little like the hand wondering what relationship it might have with the foot: we are one body, with one nervous system, under one head.
We need to be absolutely clear about what we really want, what we now have and the best way of getting what is best for Britain. We need to answer those questions before jumping to questions about referendums.
We've been asking these questions for nigh on 40 years. No main political party has arrived at an answer, and you're not likely to go where your predecessors feared to tread.
I am not against referendums in our parliamentary democracy. Parliament is elected to make decisions and be accountable, but when powers are transferred it is right to ask the people. That is why we will ensure the Scottish people can hold a referendum having elected a government on a mandate to do just that.
Yes, we know you've put a 'referendum lock' on the statute books, but still it is you who decide when and whether those powers transferred may trigger any referendum: it is you who hold the key.
I am also not against referendums on Europe. The last government should have held a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. They didn’t, so this Government put in place a referendum lock so that no government can ever again pass powers from Britain to Brussels without first asking the British people.
There was nothing preventing you from holding a retrospective referendum on Lisbon, just as Harold Wilson did on our EEC membership in 1975. On 'referendum lock', see above.
As a trading nation Britain needs unfettered access to European markets and a say in how the rules of that market are written.
Blah blah.
The single market is at the heart of the case for staying in the EU. But it also makes sense to co-operate with our neighbours to maximise our influence in the world and project our values of freedom and democracy.
Blah blah blah.
Here Britain makes the running in the EU, so I don’t agree with those who say we should leave and therefore want the earliest possible in/out referendum. Leaving would not be in our country’s best interests.
So when/if a referendum comes, you'll be campaigning to for 'In', along with Labour, the LibDems, the CofE, the Roman Catholic Church, the BBC and much of the rest of the MSM. In fact, the entire Establishment will be ranged against the swivel-eyed bigots, xenophobes, little-Englanders and extremists. If you do not grasp what is manifestly in the country's best interests, it is very difficult to trust your discernment.
An “in” vote too would have profound disadvantages. All further attempts at changing Britain’s relationship with Europe would be met with cries that the British people had already spoken.
Yes, it will kill the issue for another generation. Which is why it must be won.
Yet the fact is the British people are not happy with what they have, and neither am I. That’s why I said on Friday that the problem with an in/out referendum is that it offers a single choice, whereas what I want — and what I believe the vast majority of the British people want — is to make changes to our relationship.
Well, it's clear that an increasing majority are not happy, but it isn't so clear that you're not. By denying the In/Out option, you deny the very choice that majority desires: 'changes to our relationship' is simply code for temporary derogation. The EU is predicated on 'ever closer union'. The only 'relationship' it understands is the absorption of national sovereignty and the negation of democracy.
So what is wrong with what we’ve got? Put simply, for those of us outside the eurozone, far from there being too little Europe, there is too much of it. Too much cost; too much bureaucracy; too much meddling in issues that belong to nation states or civic society or individuals. Whole swathes of legislation covering social issues, working time and home affairs should, in my view, be scrapped.
Yes, this is nothing new.
The Coalition parties will have different views on this, so we will be reviewing the balance of the EU’s competences, to provide a national audit of what the EU currently does and its implications for our country.
Which will take a year, or two... an audit sounds ominously like 'a review' - a strategy for perpetual deferral.
Finally, and vitally, how do we maximise the chances of actually getting what we want?
Threaten to leave, you moron.
First, we need to recognise that Europe is changing — and fast . The single currency is driving a process that will see its members take more and more steps towards fuller integration. They are necessary if the euro is to survive, but mean that the EU and relationships within it will change. We have shown not only that we can stay out of that integration, but that we can also get out of things — such as bail-out funds — that we don’t like.
We 'got out' of bail-out funds, did we? Right..
At Friday’s summit we ensured that the key parts of banking union would be done by the European Central Bank for eurozone members and not for us. We won’t stand behind Greek or Portuguese banks, and our banks will be regulated by the Bank of England, not the ECB.
So, you waved another veto, did you?
There is more to come where we can take forward our interests, safeguard the single market and stay out of a federal Europe. Those who say we would never say “no” were proved wrong by my veto last December. And those who instead say we risk giving up all influence are also wrong.
Blah blah.
Two of the last big decisions about European institutions have gone our way: we have a British head of the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development and a home in London for important parts of the new EU patent court.
Golly gosh. His Grace is mightily impressed.
Second, let us start to spell out in more detail the parts of our European engagement we want and those that we want to end. While we need to define with more clarity where we would like to get to, we need to show tactical and strategic patience. The eurozone is in crisis which needs to be resolved, and we are in a Coalition government during this parliament.
Ah, 'tactical and strategic patience' is what have long run out of.
Nevertheless I will continue to work for a different, more flexible and less onerous position for Britain within the EU.
Yes, right.
How do we take the British people with us on this difficult and complicated journey? How do we avoid the wrong paths of either accepting the status quo meekly or giving up altogether and preparing to leave? It will undoubtedly be hard, but taking the right path in politics often is.
You don't say.
As we get closer to the end point, we will need to consider how best to get the full-hearted support of the British people whether it is in a general election or in a referendum.
Blah blah.
As I have said, for me the two words “Europe” and “referendum” can go together, particularly if we really are proposing a change in how our country is governed, but let us get the people a real choice first.
Well, this is another flip-flop, zig-zag U-turn on last year, when you said: "But I do not support holding a referendum come what may. That is not our policy and I will not be supporting that motion." The problem is that you have U-turned on so many issues that you have something of a repution for inconstancy. And those 'principled and passionate' MPs who are demanding that a referendum be put on the statute books have no apparent understanding of the constitutional principle that no parliament may bind its successors.


Blogger graham wood said...

A good sarcastic response is the only deserving comment on this drivel from Cameron. Well said Cranmer.

Did I miss something in the speech, or did a Tory EU policy just float past me or not?

So we have made massive strides forward from a "cast iron promise" on the the EU referendum issue to it now being "a possibility in the future"
So thats the death of UKIP's fox then.
This is like a UK weather forecast from Mars, or the latest from Mystic Meg: "I see dark clouds approaching and the future is uncertain"
For sheer profundity of thought this too takes some beating:
"Parliament is elected to make decisions and be accountable".

What a comedian. Has he not noticed that Parliament has already taken, not one, but many decisions which we know as ratifications of the Treaties of Rome, The 1972 European Communities Act, the Maastricht Treaty, followed by Amsterdam, Nice, and Lisbon. The only "accountability" factor being that these treaties permanently render our electorate effectively disenfranchised, and our Parliament subservient to Brussels.

What a joker. Where has this man been for the past 40 odd years?

1 July 2012 at 11:20  
Blogger Atlas Shrugged said...

There was nothing preventing you from holding a retrospective referendum on Lisbon, just as Harold Wilson did on our EEC membership in 1975. On 'referendum lock', see above.

Your Grace.

You have made many exclusively worthy points, however the above one is surely the most salient.

Cameron is Prime Minister of The UK, as such he still has the technical power to do virtually anything he wants as far as this issue is concerned, and he knows it.

The point is he chooses to play dead, as do the rest of Europe's political so called leaders.

We are betrayed, as are the rest of Europe's common people, not least in our particular case by Her Gracious Majesty.

She and her family should be reminded of what happened to the last English monarch who was rightly convicted of the most serious crime of all, namely treason.

She has sworn a sacred oath, not to do what she has already done, and therefore is IMO clearly guilty as should be immediately charged. Cameron on the other hand is sworn to obedience to Her Majesty, therefore the buck stops with Her, not so much with him, Heath, Blair or Brown.

As usual we are looking in the wrong place, and so can hardly be surprised when we do not find what we are so desperately searching for.

Could we remind ourselves what was the point of The Napoleonic, 1st and 2nd World Wars, which claimed the lives of many millions and cost the treasure of an entire continent?

For it would now seem that the sacrifice was utterly in vain, and the ultimate result will please neither the German, French, Spanish, Greek, Dutch, Italian, Irish nor British people.

Only Orwellian organizations like The BBC, claim with a straight face, that pleasing no one, is by definition a good thing.

It would seem that we are now going to be given the worst of all possible worlds, and were deliberately slaughtered in our millions to achieve it.

1 July 2012 at 11:33  
Blogger Sackerson said...

Need to leave out one of the negatives in your last sentence. Otherwise, appropriate level of scorn and derision.

1 July 2012 at 12:21  
Blogger Lang Spoon said...

Several years ago I left the Conservative party - and more crucially stopped thinking of myself as a "Conservative" - over the coup that replaced Ian Duncan-Smith with this Quisling.

Almost everything that David Cameron and the front bench tories - most of whom are Quislings too - have done since then has confirmed that decision. (The only anomalies have been Gove trying to improve English education and Duncan-Smith wrestling with the hydra that is welfare.)

Nothing Cameron says or does is likely ever to change those judgments.

1 July 2012 at 12:32  
Blogger Captain Ranty said...

The only question to ask is: did we enter the EU lawfully?

The answer is no.

My thoughts on this:

All sorts of problems were created when we "joined" the EU. Not least of which is the fact that the monarch abdicated.


1 July 2012 at 12:35  
Blogger Berserker said...

Gosh, I am so glad that London is going to be home for parts of the new EU patent court. This even dwarves the Olympics! It has only taken since 1973 to get this far. Does it really matter which city holds the pan-European patent court?

But I thought Merkel/Hollande had stitched us up and were going to have the court in Munich or Paris but Dave came charging to the rescue and it now seems that there will be three divisions of the court, ie Paris, London and Munich But have I got that wrong? After all, Rumpy-pumpy in high excitement twittered this outstanding information and he can't be wrong, can he?

Important? It should have been sorted years ago and it should eventually help business. The Spanish and Italians for one don't like it and they will have to get to grips with German and French.

Would you put your faith in a bank which the auditors refused to sign of their accounts for 17 years in a row. Where 7000 (non elected) administrators of the can self certify their expenses and give money to their relatives. Nepotism is rife. And as for land exaggeration... French farmers are given special magnifying glasses at birth.

The EU ship is badly holed and will go down. Let us remember Waterloo and be the first rats to jump.

1 July 2012 at 12:40  
Blogger Curtis said...

I really don't understand Cameron at all. Why wait till 2013 to make all these nonsensical changes to benefits? Why didn't he just seriously cut spending in 2010 and then gradually reintroduce things towards 2015? None of his immigration changes will have results until 2016, allowing the next Labour government to take all the credit at the GE in 2020. Why not just hold an EU referendum now and get the answer he wants (IN) instead of waiting until 2017, when OUT may actually have a chance of winning?

1 July 2012 at 12:41  
Blogger bluedog said...

Your Grace, as long as the Conservative party is in Coalition with the Lib-Dims, talk of a referendum or of renegotiation is simply Cameron placing an each way bet. He can't hold an in-out referendum because Clegg won't let him. However the nearer the next general election becomes the more frequent Cameron's PR spinning talents will be deployed over the EU debacle.

Cameron must be secretly hoping that both the EMU and subsequently the EU itself implodes before the next general election in 2015. That would neatly get him off the hook. It may happen, too.

1 July 2012 at 12:44  
Blogger Youthpasta said...

The saddest thing about this is that it confirms that I almost certainly will not see a party of my choice in power after the next election.
Cameron, Miliband and Clegg are all too pro-EU for my taste and with the BNP and their ilk being a clear "No!" I am left with UKIP. Not that I have any problem with voting UKIP, I happen to agree with a lot of what their party stands for, but because most people will not look at the EU as a key deciding factor at the election it will be down to the Conservatives or Labour to either govern alone or partner up with the Lib-Dems and if the Tories win then it will be more of this Cameron hot air.

I had hoped that the Conservatives being in power under Cameron might be a good thing. I had thought that a Tory coalition with the Lib-Dems could be a good thing. Now I just think the whole system is a mess that there is not enough will to truly fix.

1 July 2012 at 13:27  
Blogger Preacher said...

Same tired old half promises & veiled threats of apocalyptic disasters that await those that want out of the E.U prison.
Do they really believe that we are so stupid & ignorant.
Like children at a birthday party who are amazed by the 'Magic' of a third rate Clown's conjuring tricks?.
The clock is ticking for ALL the main parties. We know your tricks & can see how they are done.
The only party that has shown any honesty & truth is UKIP. We should vote only for them, if we have the same nerve & courage that saw us stand alone against two would be European Dictatorships in both wars of the 20th Century.
The Truth is that the European Parliament is a rats nest of has been's & never have been's that have built their own gravy train, climbed aboard & are enjoying the ride at our expense. Cameron, Clegg & Milliband have their tickets booked on the next excursion to political Disneyland & they won't let them go without a fight.

1 July 2012 at 13:52  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1 July 2012 at 15:11  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Your Grace. A somewhat detailed account of the man’s inner thoughts, or should that be of his closest advisors. One is certain that your own blog site is viewed by these shadowy figures, as they watch natural conservatives desert them for UKIP, this man included.

Well, nothing has changed, or will do under Cameron. It’s the least the Inspector can do after the SSM disgrace. Besides, what will the referendum question(s) be ? Whether we should be in or out of the Euro, affected by the ECHR. We can be sure that whatever it/they are, they will only be put to the people if the people can return the required answer. and if we don’t, they will surely be asked again soon after, EU style, and so on, ‘until we get it right’

There you go, some unexpected anger directed against the man this peaceful Sunday !

1 July 2012 at 15:33  
Blogger Atlas Shrugged said...

Curtis said...
I really don't understand Cameron at all. Why wait till 2013 to make all these nonsensical changes to benefits?

They may or not be nonsensical, for I have not as yet seen the Devil in the details, however be confused no longer.

Working on the likely wrong assumption that Cameron actually intends to actually do anything of the kind, he wants, and needs to keep some vitally important ammunition up his dodgy magicians sleeve.

We have of course heard this exact same promise before from the now infamous Tony Blair. Who vowed to 'reform' the benefit structure in the interests of the ordinary tax payer during 3 successive general election campaigns. This only to later get himself off the hook by blaming Brown for not allowing him to do so.

I contend that this particular lie allied with the even more viciously dishonest one regarding a UK referendum on EU membership, were the keys to all 3 of his election victories.

In other words Blair lied to get himself into office, then lied while in office, while the electorate as a whole fell BIG TIME 3 times running.

David Cameron is just another Tony Blair, therefore a FABIAN SOCIALIST or incremental MARXIST, operating under a different coloured flag of convenience.

1 July 2012 at 15:52  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

Atlas Shrugged
Stop your cypto-fascist idiocies, and concentrate on a more basic fact.
Every PM we have had since 1979 has been a traitor, and Cameron is just showing it up a little more obviously.
After all, if our defences are cut back to and then through the bone, then we can't fight back, can we?

1 July 2012 at 16:28  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

Give the poor bloke a chance, he is the leader of the Party where the collective views of its members on the EU are a completely incoherent mess and have been so for many years. It is no surprise whatsoever that he comes across as incoherent on the EU if he tries to reflect the views of his party. The honest truth is that the Conservative PArty doesn't have much of a mandate to anything on Europe - and until it gets its own act in order and puts some joined up thinking on the matter to the electorate then it really has little democratic alternative but to muddle through with the status quo.

1 July 2012 at 16:49  
Blogger uk Fred said...

I think I need to say it again. Cam-Moron is not so much heir to B-Liar as had his ability to U-turn bequeathed by Head Teeth. I'll believe it if I see it, but I will not be holding my breath. What will the wording be, though, do we work toward a completely integrated United States of Europe or work towards a completely integrated united States of Europe with German as the sole language? The fellow is as trustworthy as a bag full of monkeys.

1 July 2012 at 16:49  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

BTW if anyone thinks we would be able to negotiate advantageous trade arrangements with the EU in current conditions were we to decide to leave or fundamentally change our status at present - all I can say is that you have clearly lost touch with reality. As the minor partner in such negotiations we would clearly be taken to the cleaners and the result would be a collapse in our exports.

1 July 2012 at 16:53  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

Uk Fred - I'll think you'll find that Heath was more than honest about his position on the EEC. The really two faced Tory leader on the matter was Mrs Thatcher - who actually signed the Treaty which was behind greater integration within the EU.

1 July 2012 at 16:57  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Tory Lad. I'll think you'll find that Heath was more than honest about his position on the EEC.

The rest of us in the know will think you’ll find that he wasn’t. He delivered us unto evil....

1 July 2012 at 17:07  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
Even more depressing. He says yes maybe in the future. That’s just to appease the sceptics. Then he says if the time is right. That means as far as he is concerned, NEVER.

1 July 2012 at 17:11  
Blogger Just Me said...

David Cameron has to do what money tells him to do, it's the same for all pseudo-elected agents of capitalism, so why delude yourself with phantasies about religion and democracy? Pathetic fool.

1 July 2012 at 17:29  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Say what you will about the European Union it hasn't entirely crushed the spirit and peoples of Portugal, Italy and Spain. I mean, just look at the flair, imagination and skill demonstrated by these nations in the 'beautiful game'. They were more than able to see of the French and the Germans.

1 July 2012 at 17:37  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...


Maybe if we left the EU we could win the World Cup again!

1 July 2012 at 17:37  
Blogger Atlas Shrugged said...

BTW if anyone thinks we would be able to negotiate advantageous trade arrangements with the EU in current conditions were we to decide to leave or fundamentally change our status at present -

I see that you don't know anything about the subject of trading with other EU countries.

My company has been exporting to The Republic of Ireland for 40 years. In this time NOTHING has changed. It is neither easier nor harder to do so.

Trade between mainland Europe and these islands has been going on since cave man times, and possibly well before. Freedom of trade, indeed freedom in general is the key to prosperity, our problem is that our major competitors namely the Chinese are even more enslaved, therefore less free then Europeans.

If the French or the Irish did not want or need my companies products they would not buy them. If my company did not want or need to sell its products to the French or the Irish my company would not sell any to them, it really is that simple.

Neither the EU nor the Banking cartels which set it up have done anything to make trade any easier, this in spite of modern banking technologies, postage and other transport systems.

Lucky for my company most if not all of the EU's many extra rules and regulations specifically designed to make trade between European nations as hard as possible, do not apply to my companies type of products.

However this can not be said for the majority of British manufacturers, who have been driven half insane by EU inspired red tape, and Byzantium like banking practices.

1 July 2012 at 18:01  
Blogger Atlas Shrugged said...


For those who are persisted in the belief that our Central Banksters and democratically selected governments have NOT been engaged in a massive long term conspiracy to steel the property and property rights of the population of the entire western world, have you been paying attention to the latest banking scandal concerning Barclays bank PLC?

This has already lead to Diamond, is clearly leading to The Bansters of England, Brown and Balls, and it is hopped will not be seen to end anywhere near there.

For please understand that there are powers which OWN the Corporation of The City of London which have been pulling strings for all but 200 years, and some say a whole lot longer then that, to say the least.

Powers so god damned powerful and well connected that they make relatively lowely institutions such as The Bank of England look like a high-school tuck-shop in comparison.

Do MARXIST boys never grow up?

Yes, very unfortunately they do, and when they do they inherit their fathers all powerful banking empire.

1 July 2012 at 18:19  
Blogger Old Blue Eyes said...

As someone who has voted Conservative in every election since I became enfranchised in 1948, I desperately need a reason to do so again. This statement by Dave Cameron does not come anywhere near giving me that reason. It's UKIP for me from now on.

1 July 2012 at 18:44  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Come to think of it, if we left Europe and reformed the Holy Roman Empire with other continental Catholic nations, we might win the World Cup again.

1 July 2012 at 18:45  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Are you all becoming Kippers?

1st Kipper:
'Europe's bad for you'

2nd Kipper:
'It's OK, we can cure that'

1 July 2012 at 18:54  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. Nothing wrong with Europe, but Merkel told us in so many words what we all knew. It’s a vehicle for German expansionism And why not, it comes with being the most powerful economy here. It’s best that we just leave them to it. Leave them in good terms. They respecting us and we respecting them. They always had a soft spot for the English. Hitler had to abandon attempts at closer links after a furious Mussolini, opposed by the British Empire in his jaunts in Abyssinia, had indicated to Hitler he had to choose. Italy or Britain, it couldn’t be both.

1 July 2012 at 19:12  
Blogger non mouse said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1 July 2012 at 19:16  
Blogger non mouse said...

Say, what is that I see . . . A crown of barbed wire above The Moron's head?

Could be almost as good as piano wire, that.

1 July 2012 at 19:23  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...


Europe's history has always been about the expansionist aims of France, Germany and Russia with Britain attempting to prevent one or other becoming too powerful. Maybe Germany will once again turn its eyes to the East.

As for the British Empire, I lay its premature and disorganised decline at the door of the good old US of A and its evangelical selling of free market capitalism and democracy. It saw the dismantling of the Empire as more important than the emergence of the Communist Russian Empire across central and eastern Europe.

1 July 2012 at 19:49  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...


I say, any ideas what Atlas's company might be selling to the Irish?

1 July 2012 at 20:05  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo, I say, any ideas what Atlas's company might be selling to the Irish?

One can safely rule out ‘hope’, don’t you think ?

1 July 2012 at 20:49  
Blogger Atlas Shrugged said...

The Way of Dodo the Dude said...
Come to think of it, if we left Europe and reformed the Holy Roman Empire with other continental Catholic nations, we might win the World Cup again.

1 July 2012 18:45

Wrong in many ways.

We cannot leave Europe, because we are a European nation.

We could however leave the later day version of The Holy Roman Empire more commonly known as The European Union, and by so doing win back at least some control over our own laws and regulations.

This could intern bring back a bit more of a nationalistic spirit, which may just inspire the overpaid overindulged and vastly overrated bunch of spoiled children that currently pass themselves off as The English National football team to actually winning something.

It could do so, but somehow I doubt it would.

However the current form of our English cricket team, does give us cause for some small degree of optimism.

Having said that, Football is played by virtually the entire World, whereas cricket is played by only a few EX British colonies, so this is hardly a fair comparison.

Football teaches us that when competing with the world on anything like an equal basis, the English usually come out of the game fairly badly, although not hopelessly so.

However cricket teaches us, that when we act to our strengths, therefore like murderously dishonest, thieving pirates, around virtually the entire Globe, we end up doing rather well.

1 July 2012 at 20:57  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
Don't worry about the EU.
Very soon we will be under another administration.
Their weather forecast will go something like this.

Tomorrow it will be Sunni but the next day the weather will be Shiite.

1 July 2012 at 21:16  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

I suspect that Atlas is selling condoms to Europe. The conditions he refers to are that they must have holes in.

1 July 2012 at 21:22  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...


I'm thinking its bullsh*t.

1 July 2012 at 21:24  
Blogger David Lindsay said...

Your Grace has the measure of it and of Cameron.

Labour needs to promise a straight In/Out referendum such as it is the only party ever to have held, just as it is the only party ever to have fought a General Election on a commitment to withdrawal

But the provision for that referendum must be one of six clauses of which the other five would come into effect at the same time, so that they would not be affected in any way by that referendum's outcome: restoring the supremacy of British over EU law, using that restoration to repatriate agricultural policy and to reclaim the United Kingdom's historic fishing rights (200 miles, or to the median line), requiring British Ministers to adopt the show-stopping Empty Chair Policy until such time as the Council of Ministers meets in public and publishes an Official Report akin to Hansard, disapplying in the United Kingdom any ruling of the European Court of Justice or of the European Court of Human Rights unless and until confirmed by a resolution of the House of Commons, and disapplying in the United Kingdom anything passed by the European Parliament but not by the majority of those MEPs certified as political acceptable by one or more seat-taking members of the House of Commons.

In 1974, Enoch Powell told his supporters to vote Labour because of Europe. Make 2015 a 1974 moment for today's Enochs of the press and the blogosphere. Including Your Grace. And including the columnist who cost the Conservative Party the 2005 Election and an overall majority in 2010.

Ed Miliband and Jon Cruddas, over to you.

1 July 2012 at 21:37  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

I say Atlas, this is most uncalled for:

"However cricket teaches us, that when we act to our strengths, therefore like murderously dishonest, thieving pirates, around virtually the entire Globe, we end up doing rather well."

That's a gross calumny! Just imagine a world where every nation learned the art and skill of the game of all games and emulated the English cricket ethic.

Not many people know this, but it is the game of the Lord:

"Shammah took his stand in the middle of the field. He defended it and struck the Philistines down, and the LORD brought about a great victory."
(Samuel 23:12)

1 July 2012 at 22:07  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Cricket is the most civilised of field games. It cannot be bettered....

1 July 2012 at 22:24  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...


"Maybe if we left the EU we could win the World Cup again!"

Maybe if we stayed in, stopped living in the past and were prepared to learn from other nations then we might have more of a chance!


Given that I clearly know more about trade with the EU than you do - could I suggest that you look at the aggregate figures rather than concentrating on your own individual company. Do you really think that the EU countries would give us the same status with regard to duties and regulations if we were outside the EU and don't you think that there would be any chance of a protectionist tit for tat? Where is the evidence to back up your assertions?

1 July 2012 at 22:34  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

Office of the Inspector General

When was Heath dishonest about the type of Europe he would like to see? It clearly wasn't what you wanted - but that isn't the same as being dishonest. I wasn't a great fan of Heath or Europe at the time - seeing it all as a bit of a capitalist conspiracy supporting multinationals - but I do remember the debates and I don't think Heath was lying in what he said. Thatcher was considerably more two faced on the whole matter.

1 July 2012 at 22:42  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Tory Lad, One actually doesn’t blame Heath for the ideas he had. After all, he was a Guards Officer during the 39-45 war and would have seen first hand Europe's destruction. Now, the underhand part is that Heath would have been privy to the EEC’s INTENTIONS. Yet, the question asked at the referendum was whether or not the UK was to remain part of a trading organisation, in much the same way as EFTA had been. The Inspector would have voted for that ! Now, years later, there was even a subtler change of name to the EC, then EU, and it’s NOT what people voted for.

The Inspector respects your stance as an international socialist, but where is your integrity ? You too should join the case for a referendum, unless international socialism is your goal however it be achieved....

1 July 2012 at 22:58  
Blogger len said...

I suppose the promise of a referendum is 'the carrot' to be offered(once again) to those gullible enough to fall for it.

Or alternatively a referendum could be held at the 'right time' when the 'right result' is assured.

Does anyone trust politicians any more to do what they say?.

1 July 2012 at 23:02  
Blogger Atlas Shrugged said...

Dear Dodo

As usual you completely miss my point. Is this intentional or should I try to communicate on a far lower level? Please advise.

For it is becoming clear that most of what I preach goes so far over your head that not even the use of an inter-planetary space-craft would assist your proper understanding.

Few love the game of cricket more then myself, indeed I have just spent almost this entire weekend either watching, coaching or playing it.

Having said that I do feel that at least you are trying, which is not a bad thing.

Please try to understand that many peoples around the world truly believe that the people who control this nation and most particularly its WORLD banking system, and established religion are Earth bound representatives of The Great Satan herself.

Are you absolutely certain that they do not have at least a point worthy of consideration?

This country has a history of slaughtering ordinary people around the world in every evil way imaginable, going back at least 400 years.

You don't have to read a Mad Mulla pamphlet to know this, a copy of The History of Great Britain Made Simple borrowed from your local library will easily suffice.

We console ourselves by our bringing to the world things such as individual property rights to the world. This would of course be some kind of justification for the evils our masters have viciously inflicted on the supposedly less developed world.

In other words the glorious freedom resulting ends, justified the clearly utterly horrendous means.

However our masters are now acting to enslave even the western world into a Marxist styled nightmare of authoritarianism, dictatorship, state sponsored theft of our children, and hard earned and already over taxed property to fund their ever more megalomanic, pathologically founded psychopathic ambitions.

Therefore any justification that may have been deduced, is now rapidly vanishing, leaving only a sense of profound guilt.

This as well as a very much growing sense of anger, for ever having believed these Godlessly murderous criminals lies in the first place.

1 July 2012 at 23:04  
Blogger Roy said...

David Cameron makes me think of St Augustine and his prayer before his conversion. "Lord make me chaste - but not yet!" In Cameron's case the word "chaste" should be replaced by the phrase "consult the British people in a referendum on the EU."

1 July 2012 at 23:32  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Ha ha ha ha ha! That, with your running commentary, Your Grace, was good, wholesome comedy. Well, tragi-commedy, really. What a lovely piece of work of a PM you folks got for yourselves, and he's a Conservative at that!?!?!

Perhaps you can borrow, on an inter-library loan or by some other device, our jolly PM, Steven Harper, whom you might have noticed recently recently for peeving off the anointed EU leadership by offering stern conservative fiscal advice in lieu of wheelbarrow-fulls of free money for the emptying slop-troughs of the ever-hungry eurozone PIIGs.

I'll be off in a black tie (imagine!) to the Canada Day celebrations at our local MP's to-do this evening and when I see Joe, will ask him to pass on my suggestion to our PM when back at Cabinet in Ottawa. We do want our boy back ASAP, though, as there's oil sands to develop, enviro-nuts to contain, a UN to annoy, the EU to lecture and much work to keep our economy humming nicely through these hard times. And his kitty-cats will miss him too.

Not that I'm gloating, folks, but you really do need a PM with a spine and a brain at the end.

Btw, I've asked twice before, but no one seems to want to answer: Where's English Viking?

1 July 2012 at 23:57  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...


Best not ask too much about the Viking. One rather suspects he's been 'excommunicated' alongwith a nasty anti-semitic lizard.

2 July 2012 at 00:06  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Atlas asked ...

"As usual you completely miss my point. Is this intentional or should I try to communicate on a far lower level? Please advise/"

No, it's completely unintentional and you'll have to communicate with me on a simpler level. I confess, I do not understand you.

2 July 2012 at 00:09  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

PS: Just not to single you Brits out...Carl!...hey, Carl Jacobs! Elect yourself a real president this November, 'kay? Otherwise we'll all be in the deep soon.

2 July 2012 at 00:15  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Ah, didn't see your post, Dodo. That's too bad...but are you sure? EV seemed a little more tamed...relative to antics of the Golden Horde, of course... last I saw a post of his. And I missed an antisemitic lizard here? Who? Pity, good for a few posts, but then it gets tiresome.

2 July 2012 at 00:21  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...


I'm only guessing about the Viking as our host is very discreet.

As for the lizard (Alpha Draconius) - best to just forget him as he revealed himself to be truely vile. He's now gone to the avitar afterlife, though it seems their is such a thing as reincarnation in the bloggersphere so he may return as a worm or some such creature.

2 July 2012 at 01:01  
Blogger Gnostic said...

A truly wonderful piece of fisking, Your Grace. Once again, Cameron proves, without a shadow of doubt, what a moronic, nannytarian, lying sack of pig's doings he is.

2 July 2012 at 05:40  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

If EV was cast down, Dodo, I doubt it is for eternity; His Grace's wrath can be frightful, but he is a merciful ghost. You and the Inspector, for example, seem to have nine lives. Anyway, did you know that if you forget how to manage a black tie, you can find excellent instructions on the Net seconds after you google the question? See, it's really as easy as they claim.

Gnostic, regarding your "...what a moronic, nannytarian, lying sack of pig's doings he is." I'm sorry, but this line I'll have to steal, memorize and use at very special circumstances and events. It deserves to be out there for the joy and edification of the masses.

2 July 2012 at 06:09  
Blogger Flying Tiger said...

13,000,000,000,000 pounds a year to the EU- whilst Great Britain dies and disintegrates.

As the only permissible alternative to lynching them and hanging them from lamp posts, this brace of marxist-enabling politicians need to be voted out.

Better a licorice all sorts parliament of small parties than any more monolithic three flavours of socialism.

2 July 2012 at 07:53  
Blogger IanCad said...


Your post @ 23:57 gets to the heart of the matter.
Leadership is what counts. I hate to keep banging on about this but referenda should have no place in our system of representative government.
Let's be blunt; the descent into pure democracy can only lead to chaos.
The public IS a great beast. Ill-informed, impressionable and avaricious, it can be easily manipulated into voting for that which may be purely evil.
Cameron must go. His acolytes must depart with him. Constituencies must demand the right to select their own candidates. If not, then alternative reform candidates must run against them.
All this will cost money. Time is running out.

I miss English Viking. He could sure hit the nail on the head.

2 July 2012 at 08:05  
Blogger Preacher said...

We already have a very viable alternative to govern us. Nigel Farage. He has the measure of what's going on in Europe & offers us a good chance of getting out.
You enjoy a laugh, Google up some of his addresses to the E.U chamber & you'll see what I mean.
It's nice to see some people are at last waking up to UKIP, I just hope they actually VOTE that way next time there's the opportunity.

Blessings. Preacher.

2 July 2012 at 09:08  
Blogger Owl said...

I believe Switzerland is doing rather well with direct democracy.

2 July 2012 at 12:08  
Blogger bluedog said...

Tory Boy @ 22.42, isn't it the case that the cost of EU compliance in aggregate is greater than the benefit of membership? Look at EU trade with China and Japan, neither of which are EU members. Somehow not being members of the EU is no disadvantage to them. And if the EU is such a success, why are its principal members heading towards national insolvency?

I think that if Britain was within the EMU your opinion of the EU would be hostile. The fact that a free floating Sterling acts as a combined shock-absorber and buffer to the internal woes of the EU is blinding you to the dismal reality of economic life within.

2 July 2012 at 12:55  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

Office of the Inspector General

I have no problem with a referendum, it’s just that in a parliamentary democracy I believe political parties should put such major ideas to the electorate first – and I don’t believe any of the major parties went into the last election offering a referendum except the Tory party in the event of an EU Treaty extending the existing powers of the EU. And even if you have a referendum there has to be genuine alternatives on offer – some here seem to be labouring under the delusion that leaving the EU and remaining in the single market is an alternative that they are able to offer, and that fellow members of the EU will gladly agree. One could of course be cynical and observe that the only reason Cameron is raising this matter now is a feeble attempt to divert our interest from other matters.

2 July 2012 at 13:26  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...


If it is a fact then you should be able to back up your statement with some evidence - then we could have a proper debate about the quality of that evidence.

One fact that is clear is that since we joined the EEC is that there has been a large shift in our trade towards Europe. You should also perhaps be aware that the the EU's trade with China, Japan and many other large markets is subject to bilateral agreements between the EU and those countries - if we were to leave do you really think we would be able to negotiate a better agreement with the Chinese because we carried less weight and represented a smaller market for the Chinese. Please get real - the days of Empire Preference are long dead.

2 July 2012 at 13:33  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...


I think you will find that the only PM who linked our exchange rate to that of other EU states was a certain Margaret Thatcher.

2 July 2012 at 13:37  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Ian Cad, the problem I have with calls for a referenda is that they mudge us closer to a demonstrably dangerous and dysfunctional system of ochlocracy, or governance by mob rule. Such calls are borne out of understandable frustration, but they pull us away from the traditional Anglo-American system of governance which, after many trials and errors, appears to have achieved a rare, precious and precarious balance which actually works. Under our system we have achieved a process which allows for broad consensus based on able representation under an umbrella of laws, rights, deliberation and consultation. That is an innovation whose value cannot be forgotten.

There is an emerging idea, shared by libertarians and some on the left and the right, that our system is yet to be developed and that we need to make it "more democratic" by "progressing" (pardon the grammatically inane term) democracy into an ochloracy. This views, though, forgets that perhaps the reason our system works ...and it does work well when we remember to compare to the rest of the world... is because it is confined by "braking mechanisms" to mob rule, with formalized representative governance and extra-democratic devices such as the Monarchy for us in the Commonwealth and the Constitution for the Americans. Regarding the latter, I think that the Americans intuitively understood that the Crown must be replaced with something larger and more permanent than majority rule, a point made by Thomas Jefferson. But Carl Jacobs will undoubtedly jump in on this to correct me somehow.

To Owl's example of Switzerland I will only say that, well, we are not Swiss. The strength and weakness of democracies rests on the quality of the population, where intangibles like being a propertied and dependant stakeholder in the economic and cultural system, levels of education and civic spirit come into play. Alas, our demographic and social realities are changing, not necessarily in a good way and not only are we not all Swiss, too few of us are Owls.

Preacher, Nigel Farage is a brilliant fellow whose addresses I catch on You Tube from time to time and derive great joy from imagining the sweating and the squirming that must take place in the EU chamber. If there is a single personage who puts the brakes on Europe's default slide into fascism, I imagine it to be Nigel. Whether he and his party can govern is another matter, one which you folks will determine; to stodgy, conservative and admittedly provincial Canadian eyes, such a flamboyant personality would be unthinkable in our system.

2 July 2012 at 14:29  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Tory Lad. some here seem to be labouring under the delusion that leaving the EU and remaining in the single market is an alternative that they are able to offer, and that fellow members of the EU will gladly agree.

I say, well done Sir. Right on cue, didn’t even have to ask you for it. Out it came, almost by itself. Can’t have a discussion on the EU without it being pointed out that EU is indeed the UK’s iron lung, and to have the temerity to leave it would be that all economic activity on this island would cease.

And what’s this……in a parliamentary democracy I believe political parties should put such major ideas to the electorate first

You forgot the prefix of “When it comes to a referendum I don’t want, I can stall it by saying that”

There you are, reads better, doesn’t it, but shame on you for trying to slip that past us, you sly rascal…

Agree with you on Cameron’s methodology though. Makes one wonder what it was that caused his statement in the first place. What is he hiding…

2 July 2012 at 17:54  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Tory Boy @ 13.33

Herewith, per your demand.

Estimated Cost/Benefit to UK of EU membership

The European Court of Auditors has failed to sign off the accounts for over 14 years - the figures are in £ billions pa from an authoritative study in 2008 by the Bruges Group.


£14.6 bn - Annual Payment to EU
£16.8 bn - The “CAP” forces up the price of food
£3.3 bn - The “CFP” has destroyed our Fishing Industry
£28.0 bn - EU over-regulation: estimated at 2% of GDP
£3.0 bn - Extra payments to EU institutions and projects

£65.7 bn - Total

(NB. These costs have increased substantially since 2008 - eg The cost to UK of EU regulation in 2009 stood at £32.8 billion).

Benefits - EU spending in UK

£2.4 bn CAP (from the wasteful and damaging CAP)
£2.8 bn Social & Regional Dev fund - good value projects?
£5.1 bn Rebate - negotiated by Thatcher in 1984 approx

£10.3 bn - Total

(Net Total = £55.4 bn = £1799 for every tax-payer)

Benefits for the Political Elite

For example - Britain's EU Commissioner, Baroness Ashton, gets £750,000 for just one year's service. This includes £200,000 in salary, £250,000 in "transitional payments" on leaving her post, and a raft of perks. She will also get an annual pension of £8,000 pa for one year’s service - much more than a UK pensioner gets for a lifetime of work.

Additional Matters

1. Power Costs - The current huge increase for British Households is due to an EU Directive forcing us (by 2015) to close all the coal-fired power stations which currently meet our needs, because they don't meet the EU's ridiculous requirement for them to use carbon capture technology
that doesn't yet exist. And our Government doesn't have the guts to use an EU mechanism - a derogation from a directive - to delay its application for some years. We can all just pay up and thank the EU and of course David Cameron. Also of course this will make UK totally dependent for our electricity supplies on French power companies.

2. General Waste - The EU Commission itself has estimated
that EU regulation costs businesses 600 billion Euros a year, while the savings from the free market amount to only 180 billion Euros. In 2006 a Swiss Government analysis showed that the cost of full European Union membership was between six and nine times greater than the benefits it would produce. The total budget for EU 'administration' alone is
£34 billion. The European Commission claims on its website to employ 25,000 staff. The true figure, according to an Open Europe study in August 2008, is 170,000. Nearly 10,000 of these receive over £54,000 pa - over twice as many as in the whole of Whitehall.

Note Swiss estimates of cost-benefit.

As quoted in His Grace's report of Cameron's remarks, a full review of the cost-benefit of the EU is now underway in Whitehall. This is a marked departure from the previous unquestionning acceptance of benefit from EU membership.

Do you have any figures to offer?

2 July 2012 at 22:04  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...


And where are the benefits in respect of extra trade, social benefits (although I daresay you are arguing these are regulatory costs just like stopping putting boys up chimneys) for those who work and that is even before we get to the political and security benefits. Your analysis is a one sided view starting with your (or UKIPs politics) rather than something any serious economist might take seriously - you could quite easily come up with a similar analysis for any item of public expenditure if you fail to recognise that there are no associated benefits.

2 July 2012 at 22:35  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

Office of Inspector General

Fact of life that when you leave a club in a huff, the members of said club will not be keen on continuing to offer the previous benefits. I didn't say all economic activity would cease - your straw man I'm afraid. Similarly - my view applies to all referendums.

2 July 2012 at 22:40  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Tory Lad, you fail to acknowledge the benefit Britain brings to Europe. For example, a deficit in trade. The EU sells us more than they buy from us. So who is going to lose the most ?

As for your comment about referenda, well there you have it. International Socialism has no chance if the people are given direct democracy. Surprisingly right wing the man in the street, should you ever care to ask him...

2 July 2012 at 22:54  
Blogger John Knox's lovechild said...

I wish the British( minus the Scots) would get the hell out of the EU.

You are not team players, gripe and moan the day long, have a PM who states the blindingly obvious in terms of offensive condescension, have a set of crooks as bankers, cannot get beyond 1945 and your women are fat.

Go, go, go. Such grace and humour as you once had you have lost and if the US says jump you lot do the hop and skip bit as well.

And don't imagine you can leave and remain in the Single Market. You cannot. Find a new market for your innovative financial instruments. If you can.

2 July 2012 at 23:35  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Did John Knox have a lovechild? The very thought! And a Scot too from the sound of it.

2 July 2012 at 23:45  
Blogger John Knox's lovechild said...

John Knox married a 16 year old when he was 50 or thereabouts.

I am the product of that union and a Papist, bold and true.

I have "issues" with my Dad, as we say in modern parlance.

3 July 2012 at 01:01  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Sir, I am aware of Knox's second marriage to a maiden of seventeen, one Margaret Stewart. He had two boys from his first marriage, Nathaniel and Eleazer, and three daughters from his second marriage, Martha, Margaret and Elizabeth.

Are you one of his daughters or a male offspring hidden away? Had he no shame?

3 July 2012 at 01:33  
Blogger IanCad said...

bluedog @ 22:04

That is all very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to post it.
Truly, HG's blog is a mine of information.
Again, thanks to you and all the others who make this blog the best there is.

3 July 2012 at 07:33  
Blogger bluedog said...

Tory Boy @ 22.35, pursuant to your demand @ 13.33 ('If it is a fact then you should be able to back up your statement with some evidence - then we could have a proper debate about the quality of that evidence'.), I submitted the figures.

Whereupon you remarked, "Your analysis is a one sided view starting with your (or UKIPs politics) rather than something any serious economist might take seriously.."

My comments;

1) You have not offered any figures of your own.
2) You have not challenged the accuracy of the Bruges Group's quantitive analysis as far as it goes.
3) There is no suggestion that the Bruges Group figures include trade.
4) As you do not dispute the Bruges Group figures per se, we can possibly agree that the net cost to the UK of EU membership before any consideration of trade flows is £55.4 bn based on 2008 figures in the Bruges Group analysis.

UK Government figures for 2008 show that over the decade 1998-2008, the UK’s exports of goods and services increased 99.8% while imports grew by 111.5%. In the same decade between 1998 and 2008, UK services exports increased 156%, to 288 billion USD and goods exports increased by 72%, to 468 billion USD. Although the value of services exports was below that of goods, its growth rate has been more than twice as high over the last 10 years. UK manufacturing exports have been shifting over time towards high and medium high technology manufactures: in 1990 there were around 100 billion USD, rising to over 250 billion USD in 2008.

The EU is responsible for 56% of the UK's overseas trade but growth in trade with the BRIC markets and other non-developed economies is at very high rates over the period 1998-2008.

Analysis of the UK's trading performance should be divided into two groups - goods and services, as the commentary above suggests. It is not possible to reproduce the charts necessary to offer country by country and sector by sector performance on His Grace's blog, and it is to be hoped that you will accept the above as a partial answer.

There is no doubt that a Free Trade Agreement with the EU - 26 would be an essential part of an independent UK's trading strategy. There is no reason to suppose that such an agreement could not be achieved.

Yes, I am aware that Imperial Preferences no longer apply. Do you know why and when they were curtailed?

You are mistaken if you believe that China or Japan were ever part of the British Empire, as your post at 22.35 seems to imply.

Once again, do you have any figures of your own which could contribute to the quantitive aspects of the debate?

As to the qualiatitive benefits of EU membership, I must break the news that the EU is of no benefit to the UK either politically or in terms of security. Globally, the EU has completed destroyed it's own credibility through it's inability to manage its indebtedness. They used to call Turkey the Sick Man of Europe. Today the EU has ensured that Europe is the Sick Man of Europe.

Regarding security, the Defence of the Realm depends on the British nuclear deterrent and membership of NATO. The EU is militarily toothless despite the global posturing of Rumpy, Barroso and that over-promoted school marm Ashton.

From time to time the French launch a subversive intiative designed to undermine NATO. Fortunately the slide of France towards PIGS status and its evident economic subordination to Germany seem to have curbed such adventurism for the time being. NATO therefore seems relatively stable at present. With the US decision to base of 60% of its fleet in the Asia-Pacific region, NATO may expand to include Japan and Australia. Both are key allies of the US now the global centre of economic gravity is moving away from the North Atlantic and a declining Europe.

Not sure what more I can add in the absence of any substantive response from yourself.

3 July 2012 at 10:34  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...


I have challenged the accuracy of your cost figures - see what I said about the regulatory costs.

I have no intention of getting into a figures debate with someone who clearly starts with a political prejudice and then selects figures to match. I could but I doubt I would have much chance of convincing you of anything so why bother?

Your analysis on trade figures clearly shows you are struggling to come with an answer as to the benefits that arise from EU membership compared with what might have been the alternative. Sure imports grow as well as exports - but perhaps you should look up theory of comparative advantage before concluding that this is a bad thing. Look at the proption of our exports with the EU - please consider what would happen if we lost a share of this as a result of leaving the EU - do you really think it is that simple to replace it with exports to the BRICS with whom we don't have a bilateral trade agreement.

"There is no doubt that a Free Trade Agreement with the EU - 26 would be an essential part of an independent UK's trading strategy. There is no reason to suppose that such an agreement could not be achieved."

A rather brave assumption - perhaps you might wish to check that it is true before having a referendum. I can think of a lot of reasons why hard pressed EU economies might wish to make it more diffcult for the UK to sell its exports and sell their own instead.

As for the qualitative aspects - don't you think that the fact that we have now had an unprecdented period of peace between countries with membership of the EU, might just have something to do with teh existence of the EU? Don't you think that the keeness of East European countries to join the EU might not have somethimng to do with the attractiveness of the framework it has created for human rights and civil liberties.

I would agree that the global balance of power is moving away from Europe - but I totally fail to see how the UK striking out on its own would offer us more protection than working with an EU which would have more clout.

3 July 2012 at 13:27  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...


If you really want figures presented in a more dispassionate manner - then you could start here

Everyone's income is 6% higher because of EU membership!

3 July 2012 at 15:31  
Blogger John Knox's lovechild said...

The Way of Dodo the Dude

Please be careful how you talk about my Mum. My Dad had no shame, I was hidden away by my father who was a joyless old bully.

Anyway, when are the English leaving the EU? Speed the day. Will this mean that the sextagenarian lounge bar bores who have colonised the Dordogne and ruined many a farmhouse will be going home?

If you do not want to pay the green fees find another club.But do not expect access on demand to our course or a say in what shoes must be worn in the Clubhouse.

You are on your own. Try an American driving range. It is more to your taste.

3 July 2012 at 15:52  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

I understand your mother had Royal blood and was related to Mary Queen of Scots. What on earth possessed her to marry Mr Knox?

I do not regard myself as English! I am a son of Eire, by way of Israel - don't ask!

3 July 2012 at 17:19  
Blogger bluedog said...

Tory Boy @ 13.27 said, 'I have no intention of getting into a figures debate with someone who clearly starts with a political prejudice and then selects figures to match. I could but I doubt I would have much chance of convincing you of anything so why bother?'

Aha! So you are just a pro-EU political propagandist who will not accept an opposing view!

Your honesty is commendable.

With regard to trade, when the UK leaves the EU there will no longer be any requirement to purchase over priced food-stuffs from subsidised and uneconomic farmers in the EU. Thus the cost of living will fall. Similarly the return of the UK fishing grounds will be another positive to both employment and the trade balance.

If a free Trade Agreement can not be negotiated there are serious problems, but individual UK trade partners may prefer to ignore EU diktats and carry on regardless. The EU has no gendarmerie to enforce its rulings.

Your comment that EU incomes have risen by 6% needs clarification. Would this be in Greece? Or Portugal? Or Spain? Or Italy? Or Ireland? In the first two GDP is down by some 20% year on year, same in Ireland.

Youth unemployment in Greece and Spain now esceeds 50% Is the income of those rapidly embittered young people 6% higher?

What of the trade balance of these nations? They are being gutted by the uncompetitive level of the Euro.

The only EMU member where export performance is undiminished is Germany, which prospers at the expense of the rest of the EU.

See link:

It is my view that the EU has morphed from being a force for peace to the certain cause of either civil revolt or war between its members.

Perhaps you should reread your own quote above.

3 July 2012 at 22:18  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr John Knox @ 15.52 said, 'Will this mean that the sextagenarian lounge bar bores who have colonised the Dordogne and ruined many a farmhouse will be going home?'

Why not? These soi-disant English bores could always settle into the houses/flats vacated by the 300,000 young French in the UK who will flee back to re-embrace the opportunities of their homeland once Britain leaves the EU.

One suspects the young Frenchies will stay in the UK, having tasted freedom.

3 July 2012 at 22:25  
Blogger John Knox's lovechild said...

Young French people should return home immediately. If the English want young people to work to pay for their pensions they should reproduce.

If you want to leave the EU then please do. Quickly please as you are a disruptive, uncooperative lot.Do not imagine you will be missed. We will get along just fine without you, probably better.

When you hit a brick wall in trade negotiations with China or the US please do not involve us.

ps The Way of Dodo the Dude

My mother was very young and frightened of the lecherous old crank and his legion of "chosen" sycophants.


For the purposes of this thread I am considering changing my name to the Battle of Bauge.

Vive la France; Vive L'Ecosse;Vive L'Europe.

3 July 2012 at 23:44  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Mr Knox
A sad tale of a dysfunctional upbringing but a true Christian must try to forgive the sins of his father.

Let's face it, your dad has enough on his plate already with having to explain his opposition to the veneration of Mary, his exposition on the seventh chapter of the Book of Daniel, comparing the Pope with the antichrist and his rejection of the Mass, Purgatory, and prayers for the dead.

Ah, the Battle of the Bauge where the English showed their capacity for deceit and on Holy Saturday too - the swine! Still valour and honour prevailed and as Pope Martin kater observed: "the Scots are well-known as an antidote to the English."

You sent the English homeward from France that day and, as we know from the Maid of Orlean's visions, it was God's Will that France be recovered from the English.

Now on the subject of the EU, you need to be less open in your hostility to the British. This is afterall an Anglican blog and the EU is seen as a Papist plot by many. Indeed, some see it as the 'Whore of Babylon' with the Pope astride her preparing the way for the antichrist! Ridiculous, I know, but there it is.

4 July 2012 at 00:40  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...


My wife is English, (we all have our crosses to bear) but she is most certainly not fat!

Actually, come to think of it, on her mother's side she is French. That might explain her good looks, easy manner and that 'certain something' that attracted me to her.

4 July 2012 at 01:05  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Dear Archbishop

I have just tried to post a comment on your 19th June blog "The CofE and the EU - 'Not in my name" without success maybe it is too old ? So I give it here as it is of interest. You and your readers may like to look at Stephen Green of Christian Voice's researches on

into the unofficial and possibly unaccountable Church of England quasi "Foreign Secretary" Dr Charles Reed.

4 July 2012 at 11:37  
Blogger bluedog said...

Dodo @ 00.40 said, ' it was God's Will that France be recovered from the English.'

Possibly not.

The French possesions of the English Crown were legitimately inherited, not won by force of arms, and the English Kings were both cousins and vassals of the French King throughout most of the Middle Ages.

Campaigns fought by English monarchs in France were usually to try and defend English possesions against French land grabs.

4 July 2012 at 12:34  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...


It matters not now.

You have to conceed the English behaved dishourably at the Battle of the Bauge. Agreeing an Easter time cease fire and then breaking this on Holy Saturday to secure a tactical advantage.

4 July 2012 at 23:13  
Blogger uk Fred said...

I see TBNGU as nothing but one of those creatures who live under bridges. He is out to cause dissention, derail the thread and I notice that he did not disagree with my comment about U-Turns, just presumed that I had criticised Head Teeth for his line on Europe. Ignore Harry Enfield and with a bit of luck he will go away.

4 July 2012 at 23:26  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Dodo @ 23.13

This communicant is proud to boast that he has never 'conceeded' to anything and gives an undertaking that he never will.

5 July 2012 at 09:52  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...


That's a heavy burden to carry through life!

5 July 2012 at 12:18  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Dodo @ 12.18, not in the least. It's all in the spelling.

5 July 2012 at 12:20  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Ah, got ya! Silly me.

Let me try again:

You have to concede the English behaved dishourably at the Battle of the Bauge. Agreeing an Easter time cease fire and then breaking this on Holy Saturday to secure a tactical advantage.

5 July 2012 at 12:55  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Dodo @ 12.56 said, 'the English behaved dishourably at the Battle of the Bauge. Agreeing an Easter time cease fire and then breaking this on Holy Saturday to secure a tactical advantage.'

Never trust a Catholic, eh?

5 July 2012 at 22:22  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...


Maybe not an English Catholic. I mean, just look at the poor wives of Henry XIII!

6 July 2012 at 00:24  

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