Friday, August 03, 2012

Could we please call 'honour killing' murder?

'Honour': 1 high respect, glory, credit 2 adherence to what is right 3 nobleness of mind 4 a thing conferred as a distinction 5 privilege 6 exalted position.

The news that Iftikhar and Farzana Ahmed have been found guilty of killing their daughter Shafilea because she had become 'westernised' brings to an end a very lengthy trial in which a collision of cultures was brought into the media spotlight. The jury determined unanimously that these two professing, devout Muslims suffocated their daughter with a plastic bag in the family home because she was committed to her education, comfortable with her white friends, and eschewed the hijab. 

Disgracefully, much of the media is referring to this as an 'honour killing', without even placing the term in scare quotes. This has the effect of qualifying the crime and mitigating the offence. To bring 'honour' into this particular equation relativises our values and bestows a degree of socio-cultural legitimiacy upon a vile action.

This is not 'honour killing': it is murder. We should not tolerate such alien values, and we should not be ashamed to say so.


Blogger OldSouth said...

Your Grace: Allow me to remind you of the motto of our brave new age: Anything But The Truth.

Or, to paraphrase that great hero of American culture, Bill Clinton: It depends on what your definition of 'murder' and 'honor' are.

Thank you for reporting on this.

3 August 2012 at 15:51  
Blogger Owl said...


"alien values" sums it up very well.

"british values" would never allowed/tolerated such an act.

Would you kindly remind Mr. Cameron that we would like our "british values" back again and that they apply to all people in Britain.

3 August 2012 at 16:13  
Blogger John Thomas said...

"Honour" in inverted commas, yes indeed. And what also makes me made (you too, YG?) is the use of the word liberal without them. Most liberalism/liberals are the very opposite of really-liberal.

3 August 2012 at 16:21  
Blogger Galant said...

I agree with the principle - it would be good to ensure that these acts be labelled murder, however, there is a point for also calling them 'honour killings'.

It points out a cultural mindset with which many westerners, even those in high office, are unfamiliar. It is generally accepted that there are three aspects used to describe any prevailing human culture/mindset.

Justice, Honour and Power - or in the negative - Guilt, Shame and Fear.

Whilst all societies will feature each of these as a motivating or influencing factor in determining societal practise, there is usually (always?) one dominant factor which is used to describe the culture as it is the most influential.

Western Cultures are described as Guilt-based cultures with a focus upon individual justice measuring actions and individual standing according to an 'objective' standard - a person is either guilty or not guilty according to objective justice.

African cultures are the ones which are most typically fear-based cultures. Here it is (a little oversimplified) might which makes right. It is not objective righteous or justice which presides in culture or esteem, but rather power which determines individual standing.

Lastly, many Asia cultures - including of course Arabic and middle eastern cultures - are termed 'Shame-based' cultures, where it is neither objective justice (right and wrong), nor simple power, which is most influential but rather it adherence to a specific (but varying between cultures) standard of honour. Murder is not necessarily always wrong - but can be either depending upon the circumstance and motivation. This concept is closely tied to a concept of societal closeness. It is extremely important to maintain relative 'closeness' within society. Two brother may have a grievance with one another, but bring in someone else who is 'less closely related', say someone from the same town but a different family and they will be united. This then moves up each level in invisible tiers of closeness such that different nations may have issues but, for example Arabic nations, will unite when a non-arabic nation is involved.

Obviously, the specifics of the honour systems are complicated, far beyond my grasp. However, it's well worthwhile that our society, as well as others, should understand what's going on. It must still be condemned, but should be understood, or else answers to the problem may never be found.

3 August 2012 at 17:03  
Blogger Henry Hobart said...

'Can' Your Grace please learn the difference between 'can' and 'may'?

3 August 2012 at 17:14  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Your Grace. The Inspector disagrees with you on this occasion. The vilest act of murder possible is when two parents kill their struggling own creation, in often the most casual of situations. Something to fit in between the evening meal and final prayers, as was callously committed here. Such is their devotion to Satan, or Allah as they like to call him, in their mind it is indeed an honourable thing to do, when your child breaks free, or at least tries to, from parental guidance.

So, ‘honour killing’ it will always be, and what’s more, the term will be restricted to the more brown of us, for evermore, that’s for sure.

You see, it is a handy term to differentiate between the races. Something the usual perpetrators have which they can claim as their own, along with indiscriminate car bombing, beheading of captives, and rocket propelled grenades that fall on civilians…

The Inspector will now vacate the floor, as he may well be challenged on his truth that beneath the skin and in the mind, ALL the races are patently NOT the same…

3 August 2012 at 17:38  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I think I prefer it to be called an 'honour killing' as well as cold-blooded murder. It highlights the completely different cultural things going on there. These monsters are not just murderers, they're murderers who try to justify their behaviour. We need to differentiate, I think, and show contempt for the principles involved.

3 August 2012 at 17:59  
Blogger Avellanos said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

3 August 2012 at 18:10  
Blogger Galant said...

On the way home it occurred to me that these 'alien' values are perhaps not that alien after all. Referring to my first post, above, all three aspects of culture can be found in all cultures, and accordingly examples of this honour/shame mechanism can be found quite alive and well at home.

First of all, generalising the idea, shame based cultures put adherence to societal values, to society, above individual rights and even lives. It doesn't take too much looking before we can find examples of this in the 'West'.

What example might we find of individual lives or rights being sacrificed in the name of adherence to a cultural 'value'?

Very generally, how about this 'post-modern' cult of 'tolerance'? It is more important that society be seen as being 'nice' and 'tolerant' and if any individuals rights, name, or lives need to be killed or removed in order to maintain that - so be it. Perhaps that's where we might see that alien culture appearing or growing? Is it inconceivable that an actual life could be taken in such 'societal' fervour.

3 August 2012 at 18:14  
Blogger Gonzoland said...

It is far too late to criticise certain sections of the media for their coverage of the trial.
The term "honour killing" is used deliberately and visits to the comments thread of some newspapers show that such phrases work well to inflate the feelings of self-righteousness amongst the readership and, of course, deep hatred for anyone else. I am surprised that you did not know that.

3 August 2012 at 18:44  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


And so what do you racial theories make of this couple? Are they secretly not white? Do they have questionable non-white lineage in their past? Or is this just one of those things that white people do? You know. One of those things that prove the races are not the same?


3 August 2012 at 18:49  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

The Inspector stares at his watch. Good Lord, it’s over 60 minutes and still nothing. And then, just a few minutes later, “old faithful” erupts !

What kept you dear fellow ?

Your offering is hardly in the realm of honour killing, (...note the ‘u’...) but that of wanton sexual lust. This man lives about a mile away from where the notorious Fred West lived, so he’s no stranger to that kind of thing (...having researched the case, you understand, not lived the lifestyle...). Can’t even say ‘good try’ to you on this occasion, but a mere ‘could do better’. That's a ‘C’ minus....

Incidentally, when the French were still using capital punishment, at the end, it was restricted to child killers. So, if you want to protect the young, get the rope out. Yes, one realises the French used the guillotine, but in the English speaking lands, rope is best, as our mothers used to say (...well, the Inspector’s dowager did at any rate...)

Toodle pip !

3 August 2012 at 19:42  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

We live in an age when we can no longer call a spade a spade lest we 'offend' anyone owning a shovel, dark skin or worse still - both. And I am sure that if necessary, the PC-ers would probably wish us to re-categorise the object as a 'manually operated, loose bulk material handling implement' and decree that henceforth it must in future so be called.

But come on YG, let's not interfere with this present epithet as we all know too well it relates almost exclusively to the proclivities of certain members the Indian sub-continental ethnic/religious groups (rats - I meant to say Muslims, but that's racial stereo-typing and we can't do that can we?)

The term and concept of 'Honour killing' is rightly, rejected in law and by the public and exists merely as a form of media shorthand. However it usefully serves the unintended purpose of highlighting the cultural difference between those who live amongst us and accept our values and those who don't. In the British conciousness this term is firmly established negatively; a bleakly ironic parody of the intended meaning of the action by the perpetrators - and that suits me fine.

We would have more to complain about if the Muslim apologist lobby insisted that we refer to this imported barbaric cultural norm as simply another case of 'domestic violence', of the two-way Andy Capp and Florrie variety, which if defined as such, would be conveniently hidden in the recorded aggregate figures.

No, if it is to be discredited and stamped out it needs to stand apart from all other murders and highlighted for what it is; if that means calling this particular brand of murder an 'Honour killing' so let it be.

3 August 2012 at 19:52  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

You've got to be pretty sick, deluded and deranged to kill your own offspring. After going through giving birth and bringing them up, to then go on and murder them simply for not conforming to an outdated, barbaric and foreign ideology and way of life when they live in the UK is simply outrageous.

We don't do things like that in this country, they should all be made to integrate and adapt to our culture if they want to live here.

3 August 2012 at 20:17  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Not at all Marie. Apparently the only qualification is to be a muslim...

3 August 2012 at 20:22  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Well aren't muslims a bit deranged anyway? You've got to be to follow that dodgy ideology without question?

3 August 2012 at 20:44  
Blogger Anabaptist said...

The Inspector said something true: The vilest act of murder possible is when two parents kill their struggling own creation, in often the most casual of situations.
May I add that the crime is even worse when the struggling offspring hasn't even had the opportunity to be born. Abetted by doctors, social workers, politicians and media pundits, these murderers operate on an industrial scale. It's time murder was called by its name.

3 August 2012 at 20:56  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

On the subject of criminal justice...

The Inspector was walking past the Assizes this morning when a prisoner shouted out to him “What’s the time, pal”

The Inspector looked him up and down, and said “Six months”

3 August 2012 at 21:17  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Indeed, Anabaptist. The abortionists and other 'carers' should hope there is no vengeful God. We know better, eh ?

3 August 2012 at 21:20  
Blogger bluedog said...

Well, Your Grace, wasn't it ++Rowan Williams who talked about acceptance of Sharia? It is quite bizarre that the parents of the murdered woman can live in the West and then be offended when their child becomes Westernised.

Their choice is simple, on release from pokey, leave Blighty and take their co-religionists with them to found a New Mecca in some other green and pleasant land.

3 August 2012 at 22:04  
Blogger Galant said...

I simply don't see the suggestion that using 'honour killing' tries to add legitimacy.

I've always only seen it as descriptive - an attempt to not only point to the murderous act, but the culture behind it. I've never seen that as an excuse or attempt at justification.

3 August 2012 at 22:14  
Blogger David B said...

I've read the defences of the term 'Honour killings', and, on this occasion, I tend to side with His Grace.

With one little caveat.

It is not that the values are alien that is the problem. Alien values can be good value; values need to be taken on their merits, whatever the source.

In the case of such murders, though, as with forced marriages, FGM, and in my opinion at least, male circumcision, they need stamping on, murder most of all.

David B

3 August 2012 at 22:24  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

Your Grace,

It is perhaps strange that some posters confuse religion and culture. I am surprised about an online religious test (and a few others) that I did recently. Apparently this is my percentage of which religion I should belong to on the answers given -big surprises for me as my 'real' religion/denomination didn't even get into the 25 possible answers :

Orthodox Judaism (100%)
Islam (85%)
Sikhism (83%)
Jainism (81%)
Bahai (79%)
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (76%)
Hinduism (71%)
Seventh Day Adventist (69%)
Eastern Orthodox (65%)
Roman Catholic (65%)

3 August 2012 at 22:42  
Blogger Galant said...

I just don't see it. Not from what I've ever read or heard so far. Why does the use of 'honour killings' necessarily mean that someone is trying to bring legitimacy to the act? It always seems to be used in an attempt to understand why the murder took place, not to promote acceptance of murder. Which to me is just the same as any other 'puzzling' or strange death takes place - people want to know 'why'.


3 August 2012 at 22:50  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Well done David B. As a secularist, you have not disappointed. After all, killing your daughter by forcing a plastic bag into her mouth is just ordinary, everyday murder...

3 August 2012 at 22:50  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

Also I am apparently a Social /Economic Libertarian (?) in terms of my political views.

3 August 2012 at 22:51  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

In respect of this topic, my immediate thoughts on the verdict and the punishment was good, the English justice system does indeed work.

3 August 2012 at 23:02  
Blogger David B said...

Inspector, perhaps we look at the term 'Honour Killing' differently.

I view it as a term which tends to exculpate it.

I'm not sure that there are ordinary, everyday murders, and the one in question was particularly brutal.

As His Grace says "This has the effect of qualifying the crime and mitigating the offence."

I agree with him.

David B

3 August 2012 at 23:37  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


Your offering is hardly in the realm of honour killing...

You are right. They aren't in the same realm. My offering is considerably more evil in its nature and effect. Orders of magnitude more evil.

... but that of wanton sexual lust.

Which tho true is wildly irrelevant to the point at hand. You are the one who correlated the act of 'honor killing' with the 'more brown.' As in ...

So, ‘honour killing’ it will always be, and what’s more, the term will be restricted to the more brown of us, for evermore, that’s for sure.

You are the one who made the explicit connection between the commission of the evil act and the race of the actor. As in ...

You see, it is a handy term to differentiate between the races.

As I said earlier, the crimes committed by (the very white) Michelle Martin & Marc Dutroux are orders of magnitude more evil than the crime committed by Iftikhar and Farzana Ahmed. So if I can condemn 'more brown' people on the basis of the actions of one couple, then logically I should be able to condemn 'more white' people on the basis of the actions of one white couple. In fact, 'more brown' people would come out pretty good by comparison. Unless of course Martin & Dutroux weren't really white to begin with. Perhaps they just look white. That would make your logic work again - the logic of "the darker the skin color, the more evil the nature of the man."

Hovering beneath your whole post was the unstated assumption that white people wouldn't commit an honor killing because they are white. It's a nonsensical assumption. Man has a common nature. That common nature is the source of his evil desires and motivations. That common nature is independent of skin color.

That's a ‘C’ minus....

Alas, but your aren't the final judge.


3 August 2012 at 23:44  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

David B. Well there’s a new word to the Inspector, ‘exculpate’. Had to get the OED out !

It’s interesting to find that you, and perhaps His Grace, see ‘honour killing' as term of mitigation, whereas others see it as a term of explanation. One feels its use is justified in as much as it illustrates one of the different attitudes our recent immigrants have brought with them. For that alone, the description is apt.

4 August 2012 at 00:13  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Carl. As on onlooker to British affairs, you must appreciate you do not get the same news coverage we do here. We are, sadly, no strangers to what is termed ‘honour killing’.

Now, that aside, your post is pure posturing. You are so against the very idea of race that you would drag in a couple of unconnected white Belgian murderers to prove your lack of point. Shame on you Sir !

If you do come up with a genuine case of white ‘honour killing’ in the accepted sense, do let this chap know.

In the meantime, you are dismissed...

4 August 2012 at 00:25  
Blogger Gnostic said...

Let's move to a western country for a better life - check.

Let's murder our child for embracing that better life - check.

Multiculturalism - ain't it wonderful?

4 August 2012 at 07:17  
Blogger wallygreeninker said...

A bizarre side effect of these murders is that he family are usually the ones who decide how the victim is to be interred.I doubt if the Aqsa Parvez case in Canada in which the family, the Muslim association who ran the cemetary and the Cnadian local authorities all combined to prevent the demonised Pamela Geller from erecting a gravestone.By convention the murder clears the family of shame, he girl's name is never mentioned in the community again and it is as if she never lived -I suppose this must be slightly more difficult when they get into wikipedia.

4 August 2012 at 09:25  
Blogger wallygreeninker said...

because it was so over-long I forgot to close the second sentence. It should end: ' an isolated one.'

4 August 2012 at 09:28  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

I'm sure some of you have already read this, but it caught my eye this morning:

It does rather reinforce Cranmer's use of "alien" (David B's caveat accepted).

4 August 2012 at 12:43  
Blogger Avellanos said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

4 August 2012 at 13:37  
Blogger Galant said...

How about 'Serial Killing'?

4 August 2012 at 13:38  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Carl, one feels your presence here...

Do NOT follow Belfast’s link, lest you be educated in the ways of a different race. Which is of course, the common values and mind-set developed by a defined group of people over millennia. The very idea of having you come round to see glorious humanity as it really is, and not how you would have it, would altogether be to much for your sensibilities...

In short, you would collapse on the spot, Sir !

4 August 2012 at 14:00  
Blogger Tommy said...

But we are told to embrace diversity.

4 August 2012 at 14:32  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

There's a lot more detail in the Independent about this poor girl's ordeal and the values of the parents.

4 August 2012 at 19:00  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

One can’t help thinking that once banged up in women’s chokey, your memshab is going to feel like stuffing more plastic bags in the mouths of some of the young ‘ladies’ she will encounter...

4 August 2012 at 19:32  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Why not call it 'honour' murder so that we can report on it and convey the idea that it is barbaric all at the same time

4 August 2012 at 23:28  
Blogger John Magee said...

It boggles the mind to see the left constantly make excuses for the evils of Islam. "Honor killings" are common in all the Muslim immigrant communities in the West and happen every day all over the Islamic world. Yet the leftist media wants us to believe they are rare acts of violence in Islamic cultures. From Berlin to Texas I have read about dozens of cases and they are only the tip of the iceberg of this horrible "tradition" of Islam. In One case in Texas a Muslim man named Aziz Yazdanpanah (that sounds like a real Texan cowboy's name doesn't it?) shot his two beautiful daughters because they were dating Christian boys and showed a curiosity about Christianity. Fortunately the father killed himself after this horrible deed and saved the tax payers of Texas the expense of his trial and eventual execution. An immigrant Muslim doctor in Rochester, NY, USA killed his wife and cut off her head because she was becoming too "Westernized" (in other words she was fed up with his abuse and went to the police). His being a doctor at least gave him the skills to cut his wife's head of "neatly". Here is a case Muslim family values in Ontario, Canada:

KINGSTON, Ontario - A Canadian jury on Sunday found three members of an Afghan family guilty of killing three teenage sisters and another woman in what the judge described as "cold-blooded, shameful murders" resulting from a "twisted concept of honor."

The jury found Mohammad Shafia, 58; his wife Tooba Yahya, 42; and their son Hamed, 21, each guilty of four counts of first-degree murder, which carries an automatic life sentence.

The three defendants maintained their innocence in the killings of sisters Zainab, 19, Sahar 17, and Geeti, 13, as well as Rona Amir Mohammad, 52, Shafia's childless first wife who lived with the family in a polygamous marriage.

Prosecutors said the defendants allegedly killed the three sisters because they dishonored the family by defying its disciplinarian rules on dress, dating, socializing and using the Internet.

Their bodies were found June 30, 2009, in a car submerged in a canal in Kingston, Ontario, where the family had stopped for the night on their way home to Montreal from Niagara Falls, Ontario.

Then there are the stories of hundreds of children beaten and abused in madrassas' in Britain. Then there is the enormous scandal of UK police and welfare workers, because of political correctness and fear of being called "racists", refused to go after Muslims abusing their children. These stories are multiplying at an alarming rate and liberals want us to shut up and say nothing. Just one more reason to call liberalism a mental illness. Their endless denial of reality.

5 August 2012 at 02:57  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Alien values indeed, multicultural experimentalism for you, somewhat similar to the strange cases of African children being killed because they are possesed with evil spirits.

Different cultures develop at different rates, they are still going through fases we overcame long ago

Every credit to this brave young lady, who tried to embrace a new way against adversity

I see many young asian ladies, wearing western attire, walking around their own communities, filled with hijabed women and cannot help but feel for them, in their fierce independance they have my support

5 August 2012 at 07:44  
Blogger wallygreeninker said...

"Honour killing" is, in many ways, a unique form of murder- an alternative term might be 'family execution' - it's all very well saying 'Let's call murder, murder' but its scale can be estimated, its causes can be discussed and it can be campaigned against if it is treated as a peculiar (and usually Muslim) form of murder that has its own particular (and particularly appalling) set of characteristics.

5 August 2012 at 12:03  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5 August 2012 at 12:35  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

What about calling it Sharia family murder? No, that would upset people too much. How about pride killing? Or family murder. Calling it 'murder plain and simple' scarcely does it justice.

However, it has happened in Britian in the past. A folk song 'Bonnie Susie Cleland' fecorded by June Tabor and the Oyster band recounts a very nasty parental 'honour killing' as the Scottish girl refuses to stop seeing her English boyfriend. There is at least one version of the song on YouTube, I just checked.

Then there is the English folk song 'Bruton Town' most famously recorded by folk/jazz outfit Pentangle. The latter song incudes the words...

'I think our sister courts our servant, I think they have a mind to wed. I'll put an end to all their courting and send him silent to his grave'

You can learn a lot of history from proper folk songs.

5 August 2012 at 12:40  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Different cultures develop at different rates, they are still going through phases we overcame long ago

Bone old chap. One sees in Islam absolutely no evidence of development whatsoever. It being a religion and a fascist way of life wrapped up in one. It’s damn watertight. Any evidence of relaxation at a local level, eg the Shah of Iran, and the faithful some intervene. Indeed, if the Inspector recalls his current affairs correctly, this on going worldwide Islamic revival all stems from Iran 1979...

5 August 2012 at 13:09  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Wally. One has read about plastic sheets being placed on top of the carpet in at least one case, presumably afterwards the family waited patiently until the child arrived. Was about to say hanging is too good for these types but actually it’s just the ticket. Sends out a warning message to the rest, and fulfils the requirement of natural justice...

5 August 2012 at 13:15  
Blogger Lakester91 said...

I thought 'honour killing' was supposed to be an ironic term like 'Defender of the Faith'.

5 August 2012 at 13:29  
Blogger John Magee said...


The liberals tell us that all Islam has to have is a experience a "reformation" and that will magically transform the sects of the cult into some sort of kinder and gentler Islamic version of of The Quakers. They imagine an "Islamic reformation" will sudddenly make concepts like Jihad and Islamic Law of Sharia and these "honor killings" vanish. The problem is when Islam goes back to it's basics those fundamental teachings are always the violence, hatred, and revenge that dominate the writings in the Koran. By contrast when Christians go back to the basics of their faith they will always have the goodness, hope, and love in the Gospels to renew themselves. What will life be like for us when Muslims become large and powerful minorities in our countries and refuse to obey our laws and if they are prosecuted for crimes in the name of their cult they threaten mob violnce and domestic Jihad? You know the answer: our weak societies will cave into their demands and we will have Islamic Law of Sharia as a parallel legal system in the West.

5 August 2012 at 15:26  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

John. When this man moved to his his present town, he was rather concerned that the estate agents would send him details of properties in the large muslim area here. Was unfounded. You see, once a property becomes muslim owned, it will be disposed of in the community. So, you get an ever expanding tight knit ghetto here and all over the country. Now, there will come a time when the muslims DEMAND that within their areas, sharia law is backed in British law. It WILL be granted to them.

Let’s hope this keeps the peace, and they resist the temptation to exert what in decades to come, will be their very powerful influence at national level. One can even predict that this issue polarizes them, the extremists and the less extremists (...can’t call them moderates now, can we...). They might even be at each others throats as is traditional with the followers of Islam, and, sadly, the prospect of car bombs going off in their ghettos.

5 August 2012 at 16:09  
Blogger John Magee said...


You are correct.

5 August 2012 at 22:02  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

John, Let us hope so, for one thinks that of all the outcomes, this will be the ‘happy’ one...

5 August 2012 at 22:24  
Blogger John Magee said...


Based on Islam's past record my guess is that within two generations those who are alive today under 40 will live to see an era when Muslims, even if they are still minorities, are such a threat that they turn their European host countiries into Dhimmi slaves who cave into their every demand. Look at Sweden today. I hate to be a crepe hanger but that's my nature.

5 August 2012 at 22:41  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Yes, I would say they do buy and sell properties privately without agents and using their own conveyancing. They have been known to harass and push elderly and vulnerable people who are alone out of their properties and obtain it at a knock down price for their growing families.

We must stand firm and insist that if they are to live in the UK they abide by our laws and adopt our culture and there should be period of obligatory Christian Church attendance for a year to broaden their minds and help them learn about our culture and heritage. If this is too problematic they are free to go back to an Islamic country.

5 August 2012 at 23:43  
Blogger Roy said...

It is hard to conceive of anything that would bring more dishonour on the parents in a family than an "honour killing." To some extent it is also bound to bring shame on adherents of the same culture and religion even though it is obviously unfair to tar all adherents with the same brush.

5 August 2012 at 23:55  
Blogger len said...

Derek Prince ,(Christian Minister)who spent some time in the Islamic World said there seem to be core basic values which are extremely important to the Arab people,these are power, honour and revenge.These seem to be important motivating forces within Islam.

Forgiveness, tolerance, and liberty,and importantly freedom of the individual (in this sad case of Shafilea Ahmed) seem to be alien values in this culture.

7 August 2012 at 00:30  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Len: "Forgiveness, tolerance, and liberty,and importantly freedom of the individual (in this sad case of Shafilea Ahmed) seem to be alien values in this culture."

The latter three being pretty core Liberal values, of course.

8 August 2012 at 06:32  
Blogger len said...

There is nothing' liberal 'about the 'liberal who is fighting for' his rights' when they trample others rights.

Its a very fine line I agree to be' a liberal'.

8 August 2012 at 07:43  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

"There is nothing' liberal 'about the 'liberal who is fighting for' his rights' when they trample others rights."

Ah. Liberalism is a political system and a government under that system arbitrates where private individuals and organisations can't sort it out between themselves. That's where we are now between certain religious groups and others. It's not about trampling over the rights of others so much as working out where the boundaries of qualified rights ought to lie. Absolute rights can't be trampled over without consequences, of course.

8 August 2012 at 18:06  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

To be fair to him, I think Danjo is the liberal, who is a bit like the guy in the day after tomorrow film. Dialogue below :

[The refugees at the New York Public Library are burning books to stay warm, but Elsa notices Jeremy holding something]

"Elsa: What have you got there?

Jeremy: A Gutenberg Bible. It was in the rare books room.

Elsa: You think God's gonna save you?

Jeremy: No, I don't believe in God.

Elsa: You're holding onto that Bible pretty tight.

Jeremy: I'm protecting it. [glares at Sam] This Bible is the first book ever printed. It represents the dawn of the Age of Reason. As far as I'm concerned, the written word is mankind's greatest achievement. You can laugh. But if Western civilization is finished, I'm gonna save at least one little piece of it."

8 August 2012 at 22:31  
Blogger len said...

The story of the' Prodigal son' in the Bible illustrates(for me at least)the value of freedom and the price we pay for it.

The desire for freedom, for liberation', from whatever restraint we feel that we are under can in effect lead us into greater bondage.
The' flower children' of the 60`s sought liberation in 'free sex' and drugs and many went down the path of addiction and sexual diseases , their search for 'liberty' sent many of them down the path of destruction.

8 August 2012 at 23:29  

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