Thursday, August 23, 2012

Cecilia Gimenez restores... oh, shit..

91 Comments:

Blogger Youthpasta said...

Given the title to this, the most appropriate response I an give is:
WTF?

23 August 2012 at 23:21  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Is that what Socialism looks like?

23 August 2012 at 23:30  
Blogger Mr Veale said...

I'm not convinced that this is appropriate language for an archbishop; or a youth pastor if it comes to that.
Can I take it that I am allowed to be old-fashioned on a conservative blog?

23 August 2012 at 23:37  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

I'm sure she tried her best on the fresco. No need to take the p*ss out of this pensioner.

23 August 2012 at 23:39  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Indeed you are, Mr Veale, indeed you are. And you are welcome to do a short course in Ancient Hebrew, for the Old Testament is replete with far worse.

23 August 2012 at 23:39  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Am I the only person who finds there to be something endearing about this?

The woman was fed up with seeing the image degrade. The art restoration lot would have done a better job from a purely aesthetic perspective, but this woman did it to honour Jesus.

I couldn't help but think that God probably thoroughly enjoyed His new portrait. It certainly comes from a "wiser heart" than P*** Christ (cf. Exodus 35:35).

23 August 2012 at 23:43  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

AIB

I tend to agree with you. God may have approved of the devotion of the woman. I'm not so though that He "enjoyed" the outcome.

This tale has a moral and rather prove a point I've been making in recent discussions. A certain expertise in life is required commensurate with the task in hand - as well as a desire to serve and please God. Each of us has different gifts.

This woman's priest failed to exercise proper oversight and an image entrusted to the Church was damaged, possibly irrevocably. Imagine a world where everybody claimed equal expertise and authority and were free to do and say as they saw fit.

24 August 2012 at 00:25  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Ah - I saw it more through the lens of who the picture had originally "belonged" to; which was almost always the parishioners of the church itself. It would have been them who not only commissioned and paid for it, but also originally kept it in good condition. It was communal not only in ownership, but in production.

It's only really in the last century or so that we've moved to a place where the antiquity of a painting is its primary virtue, so that we would rather see it flaking away than "marred" with an anachronistic hand.

Sure, it's not the finest demonstration of artistic skill (but then, skill has long since departed from the art scene anyway), but even "authentic" repaintings get treated with scorn. How can we paint over a masterpiece?!

It's just art to us now. It used to be Christ. Our pensioner sister remembered the latter, even if her efforts fell short of our breathtakingly strange standards for the former.

Still better than a Damien Hirst :D

24 August 2012 at 00:34  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

AIB

I used the term "entrusted" and not "belonged". The painting on the wall of the church represented an act of love leading to an image intended to raise one's mind to Heaven. It is like many other things in the Church that need diligent oversight and protection.

The Face of Christ ended up looking like the face of a monkey! I'm sure the good people who commissioned the original painting would not be happy with the neglect of the image or its reformation, oops... meant to say restoration.

24 August 2012 at 01:30  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

They were scare quotes rather than quotation quotes.

I used 'belong' rather than 'entrust' because the former, I think, better expresses the local and parochial relationship with the church. I didn't mean to imply a commercial form of ownership. In a way, I'd probably argue the reverse is also true: the parishioners come to "belong" to the architectural and aesthetic patrimony of their church.

I take your point on being like a monkey. It just strikes me that there's a missed opportunity for Christians to point out dedication.

Pouring perfume on a man's feet once scandalised another set of critics :)

P.S. Loving the "reformation" line...

24 August 2012 at 01:40  
Blogger non mouse said...

Are these gas masks that I see before me? Or was the deconstructionist judge and re-former looking through the wrong kind of glass?

Whatever--- Redemption appears to be beyond all concerned. So is that heresy? Will the RCs deem it worthy of anathema?

24 August 2012 at 01:59  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Yes, but dedication without skill or direction is a recipe for chaos.

Let us hope such Sola-reparationem does not catch on!

24 August 2012 at 02:00  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

non mouse

The poor woman, in her 80's, appears to have acted with the best of intentions. Now she is bed ridden suffering from an anxiety attack. Her family are trying to get her to eat something.

The Church, I am sure, will pray for her full recovery - and keep her away from 19th century frescos in the future.

24 August 2012 at 02:08  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

I still find it oddly endearing. Dunno what that says about my taste in art...

24 August 2012 at 02:56  
Blogger John Magee said...

I think this is an excellent group portrait of the annual reunion of the 12 Gingerbread Men at the home of their host. The Gingerbread Man.

24 August 2012 at 04:33  
Blogger Gareth said...

I thought the painting was a bit crap to begin with anyway (Behold the Man, not The Last Supper).

24 August 2012 at 08:27  
Blogger Bigland said...

AnonymousInBelfast, you have expressed my feelings about this far better than I could.

24 August 2012 at 09:00  
Blogger David B said...

I feel for the poor woman.

Nonetheless the picture was not a masterwork, and the episode is not a tragedy like the time, if memory serves, that a bunch of well meaning French scouts cleaned a cave of palaeolithic paintings.

Regarding the language HG used, it pales into insignificance compared to the language used about some Tories used by John Major, and the language used by the now President of Ireland against some Tea Partyist loon called Michael Graham a couple of years ago.

To avoid posting a link, those interested in hearing this wonderful piece of invective can google 'Michael D Higgins Michael Graham'.

David B



David B

24 August 2012 at 09:01  
Blogger Che Yeoh said...

"Will the RCs deem it worthy of anathema?"

Nope, we won't. This is a more startling example of the 'have a go' enthusiastic amateur culture that has bedecked many a statue and picture in our church. It's both revered for its spirit and reviled for its results. I had the opposite experience of this lady; I had taken home a very ugly statue to mend some cracks in it. When I had finished, I wiped the statue with a cloth. The paint came away and there was a beautiful statue underneath. Sure there's a lesson in there somewhere..

24 August 2012 at 10:21  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Lord above ! There is a damn good reason why the RCC keeps ‘well intentioned’ women well clear of the ministry. Best add to that ‘restorations’ by them without direct supervision...

24 August 2012 at 11:54  
Blogger David B said...

It's a bit of a quiet day, so I hope His Grace will excuse me for going a bit off topic.

I won't post a link, but the story concerns a German Bishop, luxurious consumption and extravagance, attempts to hush the story up, lies, intimidation, and, well, if you look at the whole article more will emerge.

Google Der Spiegel Bishop's extravagent behaviour uproar.

I can't help but wonder how the defenders of the RCC will rationalise this away.

A small quote which qualifies as fair use an is safe for copyright.

"SPIEGEL inquiries about this luxury trip to the slums triggered a flurry of contradictory reports. Questions directed to the diocese press office were answered by a law firm in nearby Frankfurt. The 10-page document contained a cease and desist declaration with a penalty clause forbidding the publication of the claim that the bishop had flown first-class to India -- as well as a €1,890.91 ($2,400) bill for the legal warning. The bishop's lawyer said that the claim "is untrue" and that his client had "flown business class."

But after a follow-up written inquiry, the whole story changed a few days later. Suddenly, the truth was out....

...While in Rome for the birthday reception of Pope Benedict XVI, people were puzzled when Tebartz-van Elst said that his new, 120-square-meter (1,300-square-foot) quarters only cost €200,000. But his figure ignores the costs for the reception rooms, chapel, offices and rooms for his driver and the two nuns who assist him. The entire complex reportedly costs at least €5.5 million"

There is a lot more shocking stuff in the article. Worse, I think, than the MPs expense scandal here, since at least they do not hypocritically yatter on to their constituents about the benefits of poverty.

David B

24 August 2012 at 12:08  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

David B. “Bishop refuses to wear sackcloth, travel in the guards van, and live in bed and breakfast accommodation scandal”

No keeping a good story hidden away from you, what !

The truth will out as they say...


24 August 2012 at 12:30  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

David B. Here’s another one for you. About 15 years ago, the Inspector was introduced to the then senior RC chaplain in HM Armed Forces. Also a bishop and one believes supplied by the Benedictine order. Am prepared to swear an affidavit that he was standing at St Gregory’s, Cheltenham, church bar, enjoying a pint of bitter. Now, what do you think of that !

24 August 2012 at 12:52  
Blogger David B said...

Well let me see, inspector.

Did he subsequently deny having the bitter?

Did he send cease and desist legal letters, including demands for money to pay the cost of the legal letter, to prevent the truth coming out?

Was he building an extravagant house with a cellar to house beer, and suppressing the cost of it?

If not, I don't have a problem with it.

David B

24 August 2012 at 13:10  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Your Grace

All that is missing is Vision On and the work of art being shown by the immortal Tony Hart tagged with...Cecilia Gimenez, 81, underneath... cue music!

E S Blofeld

ps

Perhaps all that evolution nonsense and 'The rise of man timeline' taught at schools means that Neanderthal man is the natural outcome the artless/clueless have in mind....or perhaps Cecilia should have a gonna da specadesavers.

24 August 2012 at 13:50  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Good man, David B. The story is now out in the open, and even Cranmer's people know about it. One is somewhat relieved that in the Catholic church, even bishops have their superiors. Archbishops and Prelates, who can ’have a word’.

Anyway, well done old chap. One knows that the world would be a poorer place without vindictive atheists like you around, and indeed, we all wish there were many more like you...

Toodle pip !

24 August 2012 at 13:57  
Blogger John Knox's lovechild said...

My Dad and his mates were protestant iconclasts who smashed and destroyed every work of art to the glory of God which they could find and music too.

Bores , vandals and bullies.

Pray for this poor lady who , however awful her mistake, wished to glorify God.

24 August 2012 at 17:06  
Blogger John Knox's lovechild said...

DavidB

Welche datum?Ich habe Der Speigal vom heute gelesen und habe dieses artikel nicht gefunden?

24 August 2012 at 17:12  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Very funny Your Grace.

24 August 2012 at 17:29  
Blogger John Magee said...

Inspector

The reason the Latin Church in the West has survived is because of it's emphasis on the central authority of the succesor of St. Peter,the first Bishop of Rome, the Pope. The Eastern Orthodox have been plagued by petty nationalist differences even before the great schism of the 11th century. Roman Catholics, traditional Protestants, Eastern Orthodox and all people who love freedom must unite and fight the modern Islamic Jihad which has once again risen from the sands of the Middle East and with the aid of vast fortunes from oil theaten once again, as they have so often in the past, to destroy Western Christian Civilization.

The Muslim brotherhood has taken over Egypt just as anyone would common sense knew it would. The "Arab Spring" was a total fraud and now the 9 million Coptic Christians in Egypt are once again facing the wrath of militant Islam while the Western liberal media says almost nothing.

24 August 2012 at 17:32  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

24 August 2012 at 17:36  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi John Knox's Lovechild,

As you are now speaking German, may I ask (my German is a little rusty) :

Sind Sie Deutscher? Ich dachte, du warst aus Schottland?

24 August 2012 at 17:39  
Blogger David B said...

John Knox's lovechild

The story is in the International Online Edition.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-bishop-of-limburg-triggers-uproar-with-luxurious-lifestyle-a-851707.html

David B

24 August 2012 at 17:45  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Blast, there goes David B, running around with a string of acquired sausages hanging from his teeth with his tail up in the air...

Entirely off topic you know. Bad form you !



24 August 2012 at 17:50  
Blogger John Magee said...

John Knox

Calvin's Geneva and John Knox's Edinburgh were places where every joy was condemned. Even smiling in public and laughter could have you arrested and dragged before a church court and the "culprit" fined or beaten or worse. His Consistory had spies everywhere spying on the people looking for "sin".

Picture in your mind what those cities must have ebeen like after the calvinists looted the churches and burned the art and sculptures in public squares and smashed the beautiful stained glass and other treasures their ancestors took pride in having created for the glory of God.

An excellent book about Calvin's Geneva was written in the 1930's by Stepahn Zweig. I read it 40 years ago and have forgotten the title. I am sure you can find it on the internet. Calvin scared the hell out of me back then.

Wearing colorful cloths or even singing folk songs got people arrested and beaten.

If you want to know what Calvin did to his enemies read about the great Protestant humanist Sebastian Castellio and how Calvin engineered to have this good man, even with his extreme views, burned at the stake.

The Catholic Church is a very humane insitution. It has always allowed it's children to celebrate life and the joys of life through art, music, architecture, and numerous holidays to celebrate events in the life of Christ and also saints days.The Church has always allowed moderate drinking to add pleasure to life.

Yes, the Catholic Church wants us to love life and celebrate it's joy.

Calvin's Geneva and Knox's Edinburgh forbade all celebrations. They destroyed beautiful art in churches and even exiled artists and sculptures. This at a time when the Renaissance in Italy with all it's great art and architecture as at it's peak.

As the English Catholic writer Hilaire Belloc once said"

"Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's always laughter and good red wine.
At least I've always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!"

24 August 2012 at 17:58  
Blogger John Magee said...

ops.. I meant to say STEFAN Zweig.

24 August 2012 at 18:12  
Blogger len said...

John Magee ( 24 August 2012 17:58)

I agree with your comments in principle.But how can two walk together unless they are in agreement?.

Whilst the different Christian Denominations are arguing theology Islam is marching ahead in giant strides.
The West seems paralysed (somewhat like a rabbit caught in the glare of the headlights)by Islam and has gone down the 'Chamberlain Path' of appeasement.(Didn`t work then and won`t work now)
IF Catholics will unite behind Christ and Christ alone I (for one) will remain silent on doctrinal issues!.

24 August 2012 at 19:56  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len. You will, will you. BAH ! You are the one out of step here ! With your blasted born again heresy. How dare you say to any Catholic to unite behind Christ. Really, your self delusion and pride is quite astonishing at times...

24 August 2012 at 20:03  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Well said, indeed, Inspector.

24 August 2012 at 20:14  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Greetings Dodo. One must always find the time to put a scoundrel down, what !

24 August 2012 at 20:32  
Blogger David B said...

Bit off topic Inspector.

Bad, form, what!

Pot, meet kettle.

How about putting the scoundrel bringing the RCC into disrepute in Germany?

What do you mean by the upper echelons of the RCC having a word with him?

Move him onto to somewhere else to repeat offend?

David B

24 August 2012 at 22:18  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Rembrandt made lousy violins and Stradivarius was a terrible painter

24 August 2012 at 22:22  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Calm down David B, it’s not the first time the Inspector has kicked your arse, now is it ?

You liberal types really have no idea of absolute hierarchy, have you ? Himmler appreciated it, and formed his SS in such a way that even an SS General could be dragged to a post, and shot. This profligate bishop will get his comeuppance, but alas, it will probably not be made available to public view...

24 August 2012 at 22:31  
Blogger len said...

Inspector you weren`t in it were you?.(Just asking)

24 August 2012 at 22:40  
Blogger len said...

Inspector or should we say 'der Kontrolleur' with your sidekick(the duck thing) remind me of Laurel and Hardy keep it up (amusing me I mean)

24 August 2012 at 22:47  
Blogger len said...

Getting back to the point in question the hilarious 'restoration' reminds me of the' Mr Bean' film(forget which one) when he attempted to restore a picture and ended up with a similar result as the luckless Cecilia Gimenez.

24 August 2012 at 22:50  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len, you do realise that as this site’s ‘village idiot’ you are unlikely to receive a reply at times ?

24 August 2012 at 23:10  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

I still think a Zoo is more likely than a village.

Unless it's "The Village"...

24 August 2012 at 23:26  
Blogger len said...

Inspector,(24 August 2012 23:10)

You just did?. A scripture for your edification.

'Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise.'(1Corinthians 3:18)

24 August 2012 at 23:35  
Blogger Che Yeoh said...

D'you know something, it's growing on me as well. There is a pathos to it; I think it's the missing mouth.

Christ has no hands but our hands to do His work today

He has no feet but our feet to lead men in the way

He has no tongue but our tongue to tell men how He died

He has no help but our help to bring them to His side.

We are the only Bible the careless world will read,

We are the sinner’s gospel; we are the scoffer’s creed;

We are the Lord’s last message, given in word and deed;

What if the type is crooked? What if the print is blurred?

What if our hands are busy with other work than His?

What if our feet are walking where sin’s allurement is?

What if our tongue is speaking of things His lips would spurn?

How can we hope to help Him or welcome His return?

24 August 2012 at 23:37  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

This is just my take - but I find there to be something more "human" about it than the original.

24 August 2012 at 23:43  
Blogger David B said...

Inspector, the first time you kick my arse Hell will freeze over.

That would be quite a trick for a mythical place.

David B

25 August 2012 at 00:00  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len. In all seriousness. your sheer lack of understanding of the way humanity works is a real cause for concern. One would advise you to think about it, but clearly you can’t...

25 August 2012 at 00:00  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

David B. Of all the attributes one can find in a fellow, surely the worst is gloating and spite, and the general decrying of a man's core beliefs . But you do all in spades, do you not ? It wouldn’t be so bad if you had anything to back you up, but all you have is empty atheism. That’s it then, nothing better ?



25 August 2012 at 00:14  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector

Well said, again. You are in fine form tonight!

25 August 2012 at 00:58  
Blogger David B said...

Inspector, I can't help but notice that you actually fail to defend the weaknesses of the RCC that I am pointing out, and are somehow blaming me for bringing them to your notice.

It's not an uncommon phenomenon - people who point out to believers in quack medicine, astrology and clairvoyance that their beliefs are flawed also tend to blame the messenger in some sort of pathetic attempt to hang onto their delusions.

It is not gloating and spite, you know. It is a public spirited and altruistic attempt to drag you from the mire of blind faith in false superstition.

David

25 August 2012 at 01:07  
Blogger John Magee said...

Len

Seems to me Catholics have been united behind Christ since shortly after Pentecost. The Church has weathered every possible heresy, persecution, corruption, wars, plagues, revolutions, the reformation, schism, etc and is still with us. Now it struggles with societies that want to mass murder their own babies, reinvent the meaning and definition of marriage, a secular pop culture that thinks of immediate gratification, and a left wing liberal philosophy that hates everything the Christ and his Church stands for. Yes, I agree that Islam threatens us all once again. It has risen form the sands of the Midle East and is in our homelands through an immigration invasion. Things look pretty dark one again. But just remember those Irish monks who went on a mission of hope from their monastery at Iona off the the west coast of Scotland in the late 6th century AD after the Roman Empire had collapsed and founded the monastery at Lindesfarne on the cost of northern England and eventually they wenb to Holland, Germany, France and northern Italy. These dedicated monks once again spread the message of the Gospels and helped revive Christianity in the so called "Dark ages". Catholics and all Christians owe a lot to St Columba and his Irish monks. They helped save Western Civilization in one of its darkest periods in Europe.

Years ago I visited Regensburg, Fulda, and Wurzburg and other towns in Germany and visited ancient churches in those cities which were founded by these Irish monks from Iona almost 1,400 years ago.

25 August 2012 at 04:34  
Blogger John Magee said...

david B

I'm willing to admit that there are flaws in the Church as an organiztion and that it has it's share of hypocrisy from the past. But Christ's teachings in the Gospels and who He was and all he did was perfection. The Church is a perfect institution serving a perfect God run by imperfect men. I put my trust in the Magesterium in The Vatican and I know it will protect the truth in the Gospels, unchanged, until Christ returns on the last day.

25 August 2012 at 04:39  
Blogger ENGLISHMAN said...

One of this worlds mysteries,is why these people use only one side of the table,would they not have more room if they spread out?

25 August 2012 at 09:40  
Blogger len said...

Inspector ... you stumble over the Scriptures and( Christ`a commands as well) and yet you call yourself 'Christian' but your words deny Christ Himself.

The Lords Words;

'"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?'(Luke 6;46)

Inspector You and your fawning ' sidekick' tarnish all true Christians and present your religions as' truth 'when it is a hollow sham as you yourself are (this seems apparent to all but yourselves.)
Call me all the names you like but I don`t know if it has dawned on you yet but your opinions and your religion are worthless to me.

Mr Magee The main stumbling block between Catholics and Protestants is not the Scriptures but all the 'additions'(Traditions) that Catholics have added to the scriptures and God clearly states that he hates' mixture'. The' leaven of the Pharisees puffs up' and is clearly a reference to pride... spiritual pride. Catholics claim to be the one (and only 'true church'and because of their ' traditions'(non Biblical doctrines even when they are practices forbidden in scripture and abhorrent to God) are given equal 'authority' to Holy Scriptures which are the Word of God Himself. Cannot you Catholics see that is heresy to claim greater or at least equal authority for yourselves and your traditions than the Word of God Himself?.Jesus said to the Pharisees that 'your traditions nullify the Word of God 'and this is true of 'Catholic traditions.'




25 August 2012 at 09:43  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. Thank you again for your approval, as registered at 00:58

Looking back over ones efforts yesterday, the Inspector has come to the conclusion he was quite magnificent throughout the course of the day. Naturally this is a personal opinion and probably biased though the sympathetic will certainly forgive him for that.

And so to business...

David B, you are not pointing out the weakness of the RCC. You are pointing out the weakness of one man in the RCC. The Inspector replied that in a highly regimented set up, this man, no matter what his rank, will NOT be getting away with what he has apparently been doing. If his Archbishop does not crush his temporal ambitions, then the Prefect in Rome surely will.

Your public spirited and altruistic concern is a merely a thinly veiled attempt to apostatize, and this comes as no surprise as when you arrived on this site you were full of evangelical atheism, and rather reminiscent of a young nineteenth century missionary but come not to save our souls but to separate them from our God. How utterly bizarre of you !

25 August 2012 at 10:41  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len, did you ever hear of the man who studied the bible so intensely that he eventually became insane and believed that he, and he alone, spoke for God and Christ...

There is much evidence that God has us on a long leash. We can run around, roll in fox shit, steal links of sausages, even kill our own puppies, yet at no time does God directly thrash us with a stick. Must be a reason for that. You disagree, and one suspects you removed your avatar of late because you were starting to idolise it, is one not correct ?

Now, if you are in such fear of God that you must pour out your own personal angst on this site, you might as well go the whole way, and spend the rest of your life crawling around on your stomach, lest the sight of you sinning on two legs offend our creator. Ah, one forgets you are without sin, having washed it all away. And so, that brings us neatly back to the Inspector’s opening sentence...

25 August 2012 at 11:08  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

"[...] yet at no time does God directly thrash us with a stick."

I can suggest a good reason for that, if you like. ;)

25 August 2012 at 11:46  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

"I can suggest a good reason for that, if you like. ;)"

Love?

25 August 2012 at 12:04  
Blogger William said...

AiB

You appear to have had a restorative face over. It reminds me of the paintings by the late Beryl Cook.

25 August 2012 at 12:33  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

AIB

There is a certain primitive attractiveness in the restored picture of Christ's face.

It reminds one somewhat of the Face of Christ revealed in the Shroud at Manopello, wouldn't you say?

25 August 2012 at 14:51  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Now the Manopello Shroud appears at first glance to be different from the the image of the Face of Christ on the Shroud at Turin.

However ....

25 August 2012 at 14:55  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

... when scientists studied the images they discovered the bone structure was identical. When overlain, one on the other, the resulting picture seems even closer to Cecilia's valiant efforts.

Funny old world, wouldn't you say?

25 August 2012 at 14:59  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Actually, forget the above comment. The original image was far more fitting for inspiring one to reflect on the Passion of Christ.

25 August 2012 at 15:09  
Blogger John Magee said...

Len

Who were the Pharisees Jesus was talking about? The were a sect of Jews who the New Testament potrays over and over again as legalistic, hypocritical, and jealous of Jesus's popularity. The first two points could be said about certain groups within any religion in the world today. The last applies to modern secularists, some atheists, Marxists, and all other Christophes today who hate and are jelaous of the success of Jesus's Church almost 2,000 years after his death on the cross, His Resurrection, and His Ascension.

The Roman Catholic Church, the Easern Orthodox, and the Coptic Church in Egypt are all, even though they are divided by schism and heresy, still part of the orriginal Catholic Church. Over the nearly 2,000 years Pentecost all of them have evolved outwardly differently and collected many traditions that are part of the many ethnic groups that belong to these faiths. Traditions exist to make people feel at home and give them a sense of continuity. This is amnother reason why the Catholic Church is a humane institution. It wants it's children to feel at home.

Traditions can be wiped away by Rome at anytime. But this most likely will not happene in most cases because there is nothing wrong with them in and of themselves.

I love tradition and ceremony. Can you imagine the Corronation of the next King of England without it or a military parade or the cereminies for the visit of a head of state without all the pomp and circumstance to make a good impression? Of course the leader of a country could walk off the plane and shake hands with the head of state of his host country and they all drive off and get down to buisness somewhere but that would be a bore.

Ever been to court? Everything done in a court room during a trial is about tradition. Tradition creates an atmosphere of respect and dignity.

What a dull world it would be if we didn't have the tradition of Christmas trees and all the other stuff that has nothing to do with Christ's birth but makes that day so wonderful especially for children.

Christmas - From the Old English Christes Maesse, Christ's Mass.

Am I wrong? What do you think?

25 August 2012 at 15:09  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Anyone remember this fella...

25 August 2012 at 15:12  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

You mean this chap?

25 August 2012 at 15:23  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dodo

Have you ever seen the documentary called, "The Face of Jesus", made by the History Channel in the USA? Computer experts using 3 D software technology in the USA created from the image on the shroud into a fantastic full body image of what the man on it most liklely looked like. The Shroud is like no other image that exiosts because it is a flat image that using computers a three dimensional image can be constructed.

Seeing the reconstructed face and body of Jesus from the Shroud is a very moving experience. The face on the final image bears little resemblance to the one on the Shroud. All that is explained in the documentary.

You can see parts of the documentary including the final face and body image fron and back made into a 3 dimensional image"

Youtube: The Face of Jesus

There are 6 parts

Let's not forget that the late 80's carbon dating of the Sgroud took cloth that was from the section that was stitched onto the shroud after it was paertially burned in a fire in the early 16th century.

What is astounding are the theories the scientists who study the Shroud conclude (most are not Catholics and some not Christians). It had to be made from a light passing throught it from the INSIDE). How they think the image was made is astonishing and of course involves light. Intense light.

We don't need relics but what if this oneis real? The irony is that it would make science the discoverer of the most important event in human history. The Resurrection.

25 August 2012 at 15:26  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector - then there's the weasel in full debate!

25 August 2012 at 15:29  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Soory about the distraction John I have indeed seen the programme to which you refer.

The Shroud of Turin is a remarkable and mysterious gift to humanity.

25 August 2012 at 15:32  
Blogger non mouse said...

Mr. Len @ 09:43 -- well said; I agree. You have posted on this site even longer than I have, and certainly since before the unholy romans set about trolling it over. You have my respect.

Whatever the alien agents here imagine they accomplish, they actually show RCs up: for what they really are. And that puts me off their sect in ways I'd never before imagined.

They render me eternally grateful to have benefitted from the English Reformation!! (And, of course from all the insular resistance(s) that preceded it).

25 August 2012 at 16:25  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

len

What you don't understand is that Jesus' comments were directed at the Pharisees. This sect had added an "oral law" to the Torah. This was supposedly given to Moses by God and after the exile in Babylon it was passsed down the generations. Read the Babylonian or Jerusalem Talmud if you want an insight into this and what Jesus was referring to.

The Christian faith is not and has never been constrained by a written text. Christ commissioned His Apostles to preach and to teeach. Do read St Paul and consider the importance he placed on teaching and on tradition.

"Inspector You and your fawning ' sidekick' tarnish all true Christians and present your religions as' truth 'when it is a hollow sham as you yourself are (this seems apparent to all but yourselves.)"

Such venom and personal abuse from a Christian. Shame on you.

25 August 2012 at 19:33  
Blogger non mouse said...

Thank you, Mr. Magee, 8/25 @ 21:56. Well said.

How nice also to see that you appreciate the work at Lindisfarne, though if Oswin we here, he might join me in clarifying some of the details. You seem to assume everyone will know how the Aidan came to Lindisfarne in AD635–-at the invitation of Northumbrian King Oswald (633-42). When Oswald and his brother Oswiu (642-670) were young, they had been exiled to Iona by their father King Aethelfrith (592/3-616): he who had defeated the Scots in 603, and the Welsh at Chester in 613. The boys were converted and educated.

Lindisfarne was quite close to Bamburgh and the site of old Latin literacy at Hadrian's Wall* and York. The re-conversion of Northumbria began when Paulinus, who had been sent to Britain by Pope Gregory, became the first Bishop of York (AD 625-633). After that, seventh century education came from Iona; but it cannot be accidental that during the reign of Egfrith(r. 670-85), son of Oswiu, Theodore appointed Benedict Biscop (?628-90) to his native Northumbria. Biscop had begun amassing libraries from Italy, Gaul, and Southern England as early as AD 665. On land grants from Ecgfrith, Biscop now established two more Christian foundations: at Monkwearmouth (AD 674) and Jarrow (AD 682). Thereafter, as Michelle Brown explains, the monastic scriptoria supplied schoolbooks as well as liturgical and luxury manuscripts.**

26 August 2012 at 13:13  
Blogger non mouse said...

cont'd....
We all know that both Canterbury and the northern monasteries are situated at geographical nodes where insular land and river routes intersect with sea routes to Europe. So north and south became centers at which Greek, Latin, Gaulish, Germanic, Hebrew, Irish and/or other Celtic traditions met, interacted, and informed an eclectic scholarship within Christianity.

From north of the Humber, Wilfrid (634-709) was a product of this new tradition; so was Bede (673-735); so was Willibrord (658-739), who came from Ripon and evangelized the Frisians. So was Alcuin of York (735-804), a writer and teacher in Northumbrian scholarship who admired the Irish. He also returned the old rhetoric to Europe–this time to Charlemagne who, interestingly, had his own agenda for uniting Christians under one almighty king. So while the Irish didn’t do it unaided, their influence was powerful. I’m sure you’ll agree that anyone who wants more detail can find it from Thomas Cahill.***

Doubtless you also regret that one of the schisms you mention affected Lindisfarne. At the Synod of Whitby (663-4) Northumbrians, especially Wilfrid, supported the Roman version of Christianity, so most Irish left in 667 with Bishop Colman: going to Iona and thence to Inishboffin and Mayo. It’s interesting that by 670 Caedmon flourished at Whitby: he sang a poem that adapted English poetic techniques to Christian themes. I note he did not perform in Irish, British Celtic, or Latin. After leaving, the Irish continued to educate scholars, some returned, and in 716, Iona was the last of their bases to accept Roman authority.

_______________________



* Vindolanda Tablets Online. Centre for the Study of Ancient Documents. Dir. A. K. Bowman and the Academic Computing Development Team. 2009. Oxford University, England. 30 Nov. 2009. http://vindolanda.csad.ox.ac.uk.

**Brown, Michelle P. “The New Learning: Manuscripts.” The Making of England: Anglo-Saxon Art and Culture AD 600-900. Eds. Leslie Webster and Janet Backhouse. London: British Museum Press, 1991. 73-4.

***Cahill, Thomas. How the Irish Saved Civilization: The Untold Story of Ireland’s Heroic Role from the Fall of Rome to the Rise of Medieval Europe. New York: Doubleday, 1995.

26 August 2012 at 13:21  
Blogger non mouse said...

cont'd...
Northumbrian power had already begun to wane, though, after defeat at the Battle of Nechtanesmere (685), where Edfrith died at the hands of the Picts.

Really dark Viking times soon afflicted Euroland. In Britain they sacked York in 766; they got Lindisfarne in 793-95; Jarrow in 794; and Iona in 795, 802, 806. From their bases around us they continued to attack, especially having set up home in Dublin (841-2). From there they took Dumbarton Rock (870-71) and control of the seaways.

They continued to invade, but Alfred of Wessex (871-99) arranged his treaty with Guthrum circa 890. Part of the agreement was that the Danes who settled in north and east England (the Danelaw) would practice Christianity.

Alfred also set up his own programme for saving civilization and literacy. That is another story: it's due to him that English civilization not only survived, but preserved its great literary achievements.

By AD900 the Scots/Irish had swept across Scotland, from Dalriada into Moray and Ross, destroying Pictish culture and language in the area. However, the new arrangement seemed not to suffer greatly from Vikings.

We never achieved full equilibrium within England, though. The Vikings got to Paris in 911, and Hrolfe of Norway became the first Duke of Normandy... and we all know how that led to another 500 years of darkness.

But at least the Vikings were related to us. This time, though ---nobody's even resisted the completely alien invaders, let alone told them that they must conform to Christianity. That's the big difference, Mr. Magee. That--and the vast numbers, backed up by the traitors who pretend to represent us. Not least of them are Dave the Boneless and his Masked Comrades.

They'd fit quite well into this painting on the wall...

26 August 2012 at 13:30  
Blogger John Magee said...

non mouse

Thank you for the detailed history of the Holy Island of Lindesfarne and it's founder St. Aidan. Western Christian Civilization owes a lot to those heroic monks from Iona who spread out from that tiny island off the west coast of Scotland so very very long ago at the beginning of the "Dark Ages" and lit or relit the light of Christianity all over the North of England and northern Europe. They even made it to northern Italy.

On August 25th, 2012 another hero representing the accomplishments of Western Christian Civilization died. The USA Astronaut Neil Armstrong. The first man to step foot on the moon. His ancestors came to the USA from Scotland in the 1800's. Although he was not a practicing Methodist, the church of his youth, during his adult life he described himself as a "deist" and a believer. He was Boy Scout, Distinguised Eagle Scout,aerospace engineer graduate from Purdue University, USA Naval Aviator, aerial combat pilot during the Korean War, test pilot. In 1970 he attended the University of Southern California and received a Master of Science degree in aerospace engineering, and last but not least he was as astronaut. Neil Armstrong was and is an example for young people all over he world.

26 August 2012 at 14:45  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

mouse. The Inspector puts down his Irish fighting spirit to his part Viking ancestry. Some babies in the family spend the first couple of years with very blond hair, before it turns black. Always considered by us as a peculiarity of mixed Viking / Gael blood...

26 August 2012 at 15:00  
Blogger non mouse said...

Thank you Mr. Magee. How sad. I remember Armstrong's day well: "That's one small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind." I watched it on TV in New York.
_________________

Re my previous effort: As a glance at our insignificant English geography will reveal, Lindisfarne is also a tiny island ... It's all the way beyond the Stangate from Iona!! [?200 miles by road]

I’m sorry you seem disinclined to believe me on the rest. All sources, usually including Bede,* will confirm the facts for you. The sequence was as follows.

1) Those who began to re-establish Christianity in northern England included: i) Pope Gregory I; ii) Paulinus (one of a mission sent by Gregory in AD601; Paulinus became Archbishop of York-c627); iii) Northumbrian/Anglian landlords (Bede I.29; II.9-II.20*).

2) The Northumbrian King Oswald invited Aidan and his 12 Ionians to the east coast. They succeeded in alliance with the Anglians [who were continually beset by both Picts and British Celts] (Bede III.3**; III.5; III.16). Lindisfarne most likely had a scriptorium.

3) i) RCs in Rome and Canterbury required control of Christian practice and doctrine (the Irish were unorthodox about tonsure and the date of Easter). ii) Northumbrians supported the Romanists: Romanists won. iii)Romanists re-asserted themselves in the northeast after the Irish left (Bede III.25-27; IV.1-2; IV.18; V.21).

4) Vikings, based in Scotland and Ireland, invaded and colonised the north and northeast. King Alfred required them to accept Christianity.*** These last were not just peaceful monks, of course.
_________________
*Bede. Ecclesiastical History of the English People. Trans. Leo Sherley-Price. Rev. R. E. Latham. Trans. Minor Works, Notes, Intro. D. H. Farmer. Harmondsworth: Penguin, 1990. [Bede also records the Columba/Pictish story].

**Note here that Bede says Aidan could not speak English well. When Aidan preached, King Oswald, who spoke Irish, translated for the Anglian audience (147).

***Davies, Wendy, ed. From the Vikings to the Normans. Short Oxford History of the British Isles. Oxford: OUP, 2003.

27 August 2012 at 01:53  
Blogger non mouse said...

OIG @ 1600: Some babies in the family spend the first couple of years with very blond hair, before it turns black

Interesting! You just made me realise how often that occurs among northern English folk (including my family). As my mother would say: “Well, we’re all the same people!”

27 August 2012 at 02:02  
Blogger John Magee said...

non mouse

I never said I disbelieved your post about the monks from Iona or St Aidan who founded the monastery at Lindisfarne which was was 100% accurate.

Thank you for taking the time to enlighten all here about who St Columba and St Aidan were and all they did.

30 August 2012 at 15:15  
Blogger Hayat B. said...

Come and see my Algerian photoshop interpretation! Pretty sure you re going to appreciate it thealgerianway.blogspot.com

30 August 2012 at 22:37  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

John Magee and non mouse

What about Saint Ninian at Whithorn - the first Christian evangelist in Scotland? Why is he always ommitted in favour of St Columba and the monks of Iona?

There are numerous dedications to St Ninian throughout the Scottish Lowlands, and in parts of Northumbrian.

St Ninian established a Christian community at Whithorn in Galloway, Candida Casa and spread the Gospel amongst the Picts - no mean feat!


30 August 2012 at 23:06  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dodo

God bless those Celtic CATHOLIC saints and let us never forget them and all they did to advance Christianity in the British Isles and beyond.

PAX VOBISCUM

31 August 2012 at 07:37  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

John MaGee

Some (i.e those opposed to Rome) prefer to ignore St Ninian because he followed the rites and practices of Rome. The Celtic Church, as representated by St Columba, some believe represented a greater freedom of worship and independence. That's why presbyterian protestants overstate Iona and downplay Whithorn.

31 August 2012 at 21:43  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dodo

First of all no one can deny that St. Patrick, the "Apostle of Ireland", was born a Roman Briton (Parick is derived from the Latin word for Patrician or noble family) who was captured by Irish slave traders and brought to Ireland. He escaped, as you know. He somehow got back home to Britain and later became a priest. As Roman Briton St Patrick was a Roman Catholic and he brought the RC Church to Ireland.

I don't know much about the Celtic rite of the Irish but it was part of the universal Church which celebrated the Eucharist and their priests administered the 7 sacraments. I think that's fairly accurate don't you?

St Columba and his monks had little in common with 16th century Presbyterians or today's Presbyterians other than they are both Christian groups.

St Columba and his monks celebrated Mass, they honored the saints and the Virgin Mary, they made the sign of the cross, the celebrated the seven sacraments. They were monks who took holy vows and I am sure one of them was celibacy. I've never heard of Presbyterian monks or monasteries or of Presbyterian clerics taking a vow of celibacy

The celtic Church and Rome had a problem about how to date Easter. At least the celebrated it with the Eucharist unlike the Presbyterians 1,000 years later who threw out the Blessed Sacrament from Iona Abbey Church.

Don't forget that Iona was a ruin for almost 400 years after the Reformation came to Scotland with John Knox and that the Reformation never caught on in much of the Highlands of Scotland where there are still large numbers of RC's and Episcoplains (as Anglicans are called in Scotland) and in many of the Western Islands of the Hebrides. Some of them like South Uist are still Roman Catholic and Gaelic speaking places.

Presbyterians can't explain why Iona had an altar in the main church and even a convent nearby. If I rmemeber correctly those ancient stone carved Celtic crosses from the time of St Patrick and later St Columba would have been considered "idolatry" by Knox and his Presbyterian Reformers in the mid 1500's and later they cursed and broke them into pieces.

Presbyterians suddenly became aware of the ruins at Iona in the mid 19th century because they needed roots and a history before the Reformation. So they stole them.

I've been to the restored Benedictine Abbey at Pluscarden near Elgin in Nortern Scotland have you? It was good to be in a restored ancient RC monastery from the time before the Reformation in Scotland and a home to real monks once again.

If Iona was so precious to Scottish Presbyterians why didn't they take a serious interest in the island and the ruins before the later part of the 1800's?

2 September 2012 at 20:02  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dodo

My name is spelled with a small "g" thank you.

2 September 2012 at 20:03  

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