Thursday, August 02, 2012

Free Pussy Riot



This is not a post pleading for the liberty of ill-disciplined cats. And neither is it an invitation to sample Eve’s tunnel or Satan’s doorbell in the midst of civil disorder. No, today the Russian DictatorPresident Vladimir Putin visits the UK for a chat with the Prime Minister and to watch the Judo (yes, they’re lucky enough to get tickets: His Grace has wasted three entire hours of his non-corporeal ethereal existence on the LOCOG website – it is a veritable purgatory).

In addition to raising the thorny issue of Alexander Litvinenko, the murdered Russian spy, His Grace would like Mr Cameron to ask President Putin about Pussy Riot, the Russian feminist punk rock band. Not to determine whether or not he bought their latest CD, but to express his concern about their treatment at the hands of the Stalinist state.

On 21st February 21, Pussy Riot audaciously spontaneously performed on the altar of the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour of the Russian Orthodox Church in Moscow (video above). In accordance with Orthodox liturgy, they invoked the Theotokos, but replaced the usual ‘sanctus’ with ‘shit, shit, shit of Lord God’ (not in English, of course. But His Grace doesn’t know Russian for ‘shit’). They also (rather disrespectfully) called the Patriarch a ‘bitch’, which didn’t go down too well. These liturgical innovations were in protest against the re-election of Vladimir Putin, of whom the girls are apparently not very fond.

Unsurprisingly, members of the band were arrested and charged with ‘hooliganism motivated by religious hatred or hostility’: the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Kirill I condemned their actions as ‘blasphemous’, saying : “The Devil has laughed at all of us... We have no future if we allow mocking in front of great shrines, and if some see such mocking as some sort of valour, as an expression of political protest, as an acceptable action or a harmless joke.”

The girls are now languishing in prison, interminably detained with no sign of an imminent trial. They have been elevated to the status of ‘prisoners of conscience’ by Amnesty International. Should a court convict them, they face up to seven years in imprisonment.

His Grace is not much of a fan of ‘protest art’: it tends to be crude and crass, designed more to offend gratuitously in order to garner publicity than to appeal to the sense of aesthetics. But, like it or not, it is a healthy manifestation of a free and democratic society, which President Putin purports to lead.

The Prime Minister has, of course, decided to retain Labour’s prohibition on ‘religious hatred’ in UK law, but instead of locking up the likes of Peter Tatchell when he storms the pulpit of Canterbury Cathedral, he is elevated to cultic hero status in the cause of minority rights. He will ultimately be feted with VIP treatment at No10 (and, let’s face it, despite fervent denials , most likely end up in the House of Lords). While the thought of throwing him into prison for blasphemy might appeal, it is not something we do in a liberal democracy.

But it seems that any anti-Putin protest in Russia’s new dictatorship results in swift arrest and incarceration. And, sadly, it appears that the Russian Orthodox Church is complicit: church and state are united in their inquisition against these girls, whom state prosecutors are accusing not merely of political dissension, but of blasphemy and Satanism.

This is foolish. If history teaches us anything about the murky fusion of religion and politics - the spiritual with the temporal - it is that you cannot persecute the prophets of truth without multiplying the message and spreading the cult. These women had no bombs or bullets: they are not terrorists, but anarchic artists. The more inflated and preposterous the charges laid against them, the more they are elevated to martyrdom. The longer they rot in prison at the behest of a puffed-up Patriarch, the more that martyrdom becomes a cause.

Pussy Riot have nailed their 95 Theses firmly to the door of the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour. You can’t kill a movement by crucifying the radicals.

96 Comments:

Blogger Christopher Gillibrand said...

I wonder what Dostoyevski would think- in the end a believer but earlier sent to Siberia for his part in the Decembrist movement.

2 August 2012 at 10:25  
Blogger Christopher Gillibrand said...

If he is up there with you Your Grace, would you have a chance to ask him?

2 August 2012 at 10:25  
Blogger The Judicious Hooker said...

The Patriarch's statement would be what any Anglican church leader would have said, had this crass act of misdirected protest been performed in a Church of England sacred place 100 years ago.

Our sense of the sacred has been so dulled by liturgical dance and clowning, our naively fawning leaders would endorse the right of the 'ladies' to express themselves and imbue their actions with signs of the eschaton and the coming reign of justice.

I realise that YG was rather plain in the chancel department (praise God for the Laudian revival!) but the 'prisoners of conscience' were not dancing on the altar. The Orthodox Holy Table lies behind the iconostasis screen and access is confined to sacred ministers.

The Orthodox - of all Christians - still maintain the sense of the sacred. The Cathedral's iconostasis - where icons of our Lord and his Saints are displayed for veneration - looks rather impregnable and its doors firmly shut against profanation.

2 August 2012 at 12:16  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Right on, Your Grace.
Make this visiting KGB punk and his whore, the Russian Patriarchate which cruelly abandoned its congregants, squirm a little. Pimps and old whores like to put on genteel airs and nothing upsets them as much as ridicule.

2 August 2012 at 12:18  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

That may be so, Judicious, but what about a routine trespassing fine and an order to stay away? Tyrants never think things through; the media of the Free World will have a field day now exposing the history of the Patriarchate as an arm of the KGB.

2 August 2012 at 12:24  
Blogger Dominic said...

Possibly the most important line in the "poem" (and the one in which they called the Patriarch a "bitch") was the one in which they "instructed" the Patriarch to "serve God, not Putin".

I'm not 100% certain this is correct (it may well be though) but one report comments

http://www.neweasterneurope.eu/node/402

"February 21st 2011 was the Orthodox Shrove Tuesday, a day when, based on the old tradition, crazy horseplay is allowed in churches."

On both points Pussy Riot already demonstrate greater sensitivity and insight than Tatchell's mindless, never-ending, droning, moronic, campaign of haranguing and bullying anyone who dare to disagree with him or adopt his values.

The memory of relatively recent and widespread church desecrations (and worse) in Russia will be brought down hard against Pussy Riot, almost certainly, even though their stance is not necessarily or obviously that of the Bezbozhnikkov.

It is in any case clearly a show trial. Several of the "witnesses" called so far in fact witnessed nothing, not having been present on the day.

2 August 2012 at 12:42  
Blogger Nick said...

Sadly, most attempts to influence the internal politics of other nations usually fail. I doubt that Putin will take much notice of anything Cameron says (much like the rest of us). I think the behaviour of this group was childish and disrespectful to believers but it can be explained through immaturity rather than any serious political threat to the Russian state.

The Litvinenko case is another matter - a British citizen murdered by the FSB on British soil. Putin should be made to understand that there will never be a normal relationship with Russia until the suspected murderer is allowed to be put on trial here.

Interesting that this trip was unannounced, presumably so there would be no time to organise the inevitable protests against this corrupt tyrant. As to Syria, events there have their own momentum now. Talks and the UN are irrelevant. The rebels will fight it out, and when Assad is finally removed, then so will the Russian presence there.

2 August 2012 at 13:21  
Blogger Roger Pearse said...

Firstly, the "protest" was objectionable. I don't see any reason why those who set out to give offence should complain when offence is taken. I am pretty sure that, if a group of Neo-Nazis did something of this kind in Canterbury Cathedral, they would be nicked pretty sharply, and subjected to endless official harassment and deferred trial (and indeed would be lucky to get out of the Cathedral alive, such would be the rage and fury of our putty-faced leftist clergymen when the insult is to something they DO believe in).

But leaving people to rot in prison for a year without trial is wrong. So is leaving them to rot in the toils of our court system for months and years. Justice deferred is justice denied. That is true wherever we are.

If I were Russian Patriarch, I'd have a word with Mr. Putin, tell him to try them, find them guilty of trespass and attempting to incite a riot, or something of the kind, give them a reasonable fine or short sentence, and have done with it.

That would proportional, and fair. And the same would be true of the hypothetical brownshirts (although I doubt Scotland Yard would allow its puppet Neo-Nazis such a protest), or even Holy Saint Tatchell.

2 August 2012 at 14:32  
Blogger Educated by life.. said...

That is the tyranny that is Russia and has been for many years. Putin is merely following a die cast that has been the norm for many generations.
Not to mention the objectionability of the choice of venue and language for the protest.

It would seem that this group will be made examples.
I doubt that there is any nation, except maybe China, that would have influence to change the circumstances. Unless of course there is some back door wheeling and dealing that will truly benefit Russia and compromise the negotiating nation in some way.

2 August 2012 at 15:58  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

What a malarkey, and a dreadful racket ! The gals should get seven years just for being feminists, don’t you think ?

Silly things. Had the Inspector been there, he would have put them over his knee and given them a damn good spanking. Oh yes, their names added to the church cleaning rota too.

On a serious note Archbishop, what makes you believe protest in this manner is so sacred that a charge of outraging public decency cannot be levelled against the feline three. You takes your chances, and you learn through your mistakes, what !

2 August 2012 at 18:03  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

One can’t help thinking how our own city centres would be transformed back to how they were in the 1970s if those that made a public nuisance of themselves spent five months on remand.

Good form, Moscow !

2 August 2012 at 19:03  
Blogger Jessica Hoff said...

Sorry to disagree, Your Grace. if one takes, as the Russians do, the notion of sacred space seriously, then these dreadful termagants violated something which matters, and they should pay a penalty. What that is is up to Russian Law. if they did not know that as Russians, they know it now.

2 August 2012 at 20:56  
Blogger bluedog said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

2 August 2012 at 22:04  
Blogger bluedog said...

Can't understand why the church authorities didn't turn the power off.

2 August 2012 at 22:06  
Blogger David B said...

I tend to think that people have the right to be wrong, and protests are fine if they don't interfere too much with the rights of others.

If they do so interfere, then let it go through courts without unreasonable delay. At least this is an improvement on the Russia of the Stalinist era, when they would never be seen alive again.

There are a couple of recent news stories with some relevance to this situation.

One being that apparently Congress is passing a law that will interfere with the right to protest military funerals, as is done by the infamous Westborough Baptist church.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/02/veterans-bill-military-funerals_n_1733080.html

I have mixed feeling about this, since the actions of the Westborough Baptists no doubt to cause distress to the bereaved, but this is to be measured against free speech and the damage they do do fundamentalist Christianity.

Another being the assassination of a comedian. While this was not done by a government, but by fanatical religious individuals, being assassinated does tend to limit the opportunity for someone to exercise a right of free speech.

And then there is

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/01/somali-comedian-islamists-shot-dead

Islamist fanatics killing a comedian who pulled the piss out of Islamic fanatics, apparently.

I tend to see militant Islamists as more serious threats to free speech than the WBC, or the current Russian regime for that matter.

Some guy in the comments of a day or so ago claimed that attacking militant Islam on the comments on this blog would lead to accusations of bigotry.

I hope and trust that I will not be accused of bigotry for bringing this story, and my view of it, to everyone's attention.

I'm pretty confident about that, in fact. I think the guy was talking out of his bottom.

David B

David B

2 August 2012 at 23:04  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

David B

I have mixed feeling about this, since the actions of the Westborough Baptists no doubt to cause distress to the bereaved, but this is to be measured against free speech and the damage they do do fundamentalist Christianity.

This is incredibly cynical. You have effectively argued "It is better for you to suffer because I perceive it to be in my ideological interest." Have you ever worn a Uniform?

There is btw no 'Freedom of Speech' issue here. The Supreme Court would be insane to overturn such legislation. To do so would actively undermine the legitimacy of the court in the eyes of the Public. The Supreme Court is jealous of its power. It doesn't do things that could undermine that power. That's why the Court has (for example) always stayed away from issues dealing with the Powers of the Commander in Chief. That's why it would never overturn a ban on protesting at funerals. It's a power struggle the Court can't win. And Congress does have remedies.

carl

2 August 2012 at 23:25  
Blogger John Magee said...

Let's not forget that this new great Cathedral of Christ Our Savior in Moscow with it's magnificent golden dome which can be seen for miles was rebuilt in the 1990's on the exact site of another great Cathedral with the same name that was demolished on orders by Stalin in the early 1930's. It was replaced by a gigantic public swimming pool. The vast new Cathedral of Christ our Savior is a symbol to all Othodox Christians in Moscow and Russia of the triumph of Christianty in Russia over atheistic Communism. It is also a memorial to the tens of millions of Orthodox Christians that were killed by Communism in the USSR from 1917 until the death of Stalin in 1952. In Moscow, St Petersburg, Kiev,and cities and villages all over post Comunist Russia the world can see the beautiful churches and cathedrals, monasteries, shrines, and convents that fell into ruins during the Communist era lovingly being rebuilt and restored. Russia is a truly a land of Christian martyrs. Millions of them. These girls obviously have no idea of the recent suffering of the Russian people and Russian Christians under Communism or they would never cavorted in front of the iconostasis and high altar no matter what their grievences agaisnt Putin were. What they did was truly blasphemy and they should have been arrested but extended time in jail? NO. they should be made to spend a year woking in a hospital for the terminally ill or sick elderly people. Yes, the some clergy in Orthodox Church did cooperate with the NKVD and later the KGB but that was in exchange for minimal freedom to keep a few churches open. Millions of Russian Orthodox died under Soviet Communism and they have more than their share of bishops, priests, monks, an nun martyrs.The great Patriarch of Moscow, Tikhon, during and after the Russian revolution stood up to the Communists. He died in 1925 and is now known as St Tikhon, 11th Patriarch of Moscow and of the Great Rus. He did NOT cooperate with the KGB. No one can condemn those who collaborated with the KGB unless than had endured the sufferings of the Russian and Ukrainian people of that time. Most Russian bishops and clergy did NOT collaborate with their Communist masters.

2 August 2012 at 23:39  
Blogger John Magee said...

carl

You know as well as I do that the so called West Borough Baptist Church cult, which is really a family led by their shyster lawyer father, have absolutely no connection with any legitimate Baptist Church. They do what they do to make money. They love to get arrested at their protests and then they sue the police in the communities they carry out their insulting acts at funerals of servicemen and others. They have the freedom to do their disgusting antics, so long as they obey the restraining orders and keep their distance, I agree. But we have the freewill to hope that they hit a Trailer truck head on while on their way to one of their "protests".

2 August 2012 at 23:51  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

John Magee

This event was always more about Putin and his cozy relationship with the Orthodox Church
than blasphemy. They were careful not to actually damage anything. They didn't commit vandalism. They didn't interrupt any legitimate function in the church. It's hard for me to understand how they could profane a space by simply occupying it. This is at most a trespassing charge, and even that is questionable. They simply used the church as a backdrop for a protest. Did it offend people? Yes. Should that be actionable? Not in a criminal court as if they actually committed a crime.

carl

2 August 2012 at 23:53  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Mr Cranmer said ...

"Pussy Riot have nailed their 95 Theses firmly to the door of the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour."

That's part of the point and the problem - they didn't keep their protest out of the Holy place and showed disrespect to God and to the people they claim to represent.

Martin Luther's protest was at the door and not inside the sacred space. By disrespecting Christ, and let's not overlook that's what is was, they have weakened their position. In this respect, I have respect for Russia in upholding the laws of blasphemy and the Patriarch for his stance.

However, if the Russian Orthodox Church is serving Putin's alleged corruption and rise to dictatorship, then protest is valid - not the form - and these young women deserve attention and support. The Patriarch's statement that a seperation between the State and the Church is a "western idea" is cause for concern.

3 August 2012 at 00:11  
Blogger John Magee said...

President of Russia Vladimir Putin is trashed here for jailing these blasphemers yet he dedicated a memorial to the Red Army in Jerusalem, Israel this past June and now he's being condemned here for his KGB past. I wonder what would have happened if people who had survived Soviet KGB labor/ death camps in Siberia had showed up to protest that event in Jerusalem?

3 August 2012 at 00:18  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

John Magee

1. Blasphemy is not a crime in Russia. I'm not even sure I would characterize this event as blasphemy.

2. I have no idea why there should be a monument to the Red Army anywhere considering the Great Debauch it perpetrated in 1945. Surely the Polish women who were repeatedly raped by Soviet soldiers according to Soviet policy might be offended by it. But nations will do many distasteful things in the name of international relations.

3. You are absolutely right about Fred Phelps and his little organization. It has all the broad representation of David Koresh or Marshall Applewhite and the Heaven's Gate cult.

carl

3 August 2012 at 01:29  
Blogger John Magee said...

carl jacobs

In my mind these feminist punk rockers cavorting in front of the iconostasis with the high altar behind it's doors was blasphemy and a desecration. The Russian Orthodox share the same valid Sacraments as RC's. The Blessed Sacrament or Eucharist rests in the tabernacle on the high altars or in a chapel in their churches just as it does in RC churches. This is the literal presence of God in the church. As I posted earlier the present Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Moscow is especially sacred to Russians as it sits on the exact site where another vast cathedral with the same name existed until Stalin had it blown up in the early 1930's. No matter what these feminist punk rock girl's grievences were and are with Putin and the Orthodox Church they shouldn't have desecrated the house of God.I suspect from the sound of their name they loved every minute of their desecration party. It is odd to live in a time when an ex KGB officer like Putin who probably did his share of persecuting Christians before the USSR collapsed in 1991 is seen as a defender of Orthodoxy. He did convert to Russian Orthodoxy in the 1990's and I hope he is sincere in his new found faith in Christ. As for the Russian Orthodox Church it suffeed it's own Golgotha for almost 75 years after the Russian Revolution of 1917. Proof of it's martyrdom is the deaths of tens of millions of it's Russian and Ukrainian followers. I don't see it's new alliance with the new Russian government any more unusual than some of the state churches in many European countries today or countries in the Middle East where religion is the dominant force in the lives of the people there. These stupid girls need to do public service time not jail time. As for Putin. When he was in the Middle east in June the Muslim Palestinians named a street after him in Bethlehem and then a few days later he was at a ceremony in Israel where a memorial was dedicated to the Red Army and it's part in defeating the Nazi's during WW II. By the way, as far as I know, no such memorial exists for the Western Allies who fought the Nazi's during WW II in that country.

3 August 2012 at 03:30  
Blogger John Magee said...

Inspector

I guess the feminist Pussy Riot all girl punk rockers cavorting in the most sacred spot in Christ the Savior Cathedral in Moscow, in front of the iconostasis which is the screen of icons in front of the high altar in Eastern Orthodox Churches, isn't shocking or thought of as blasphemy by many liberal establishment Christians these days is because that sort of frenzy and screaming "protest" activity in that cathedral in Moscow is what they see every Sunday in their own empty churches here in the West.

3 August 2012 at 03:55  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

John Magee

It would seem to me that a corrupt church leadership in bed with a corrupt "President for Life" might be more offensive to God than three women occupying space in the Sanctuary for a moment in time. This was not an attack on religion. It was an attack on the connection between Putin and the leadership of the Orthodox church.

Now I will admit that a Protestant is going to see this event in a completely different light. I don't consider some spaces more sacred than others. I completely reject the idea of Eucharistic Adoration as so much idolatry. I don't believe people can profane something by standing next to it.
Nor do I hold the women more culpable for their behavior because of the location they chose. Guilt arises from the actions inspired by the human heart.

A mockery of God can occur anywhere. A mockery of God in a church is intended to offend the people in the church. It does not increase the offense to God as if the location inside the church is somehow more important to Him. But this was not a mockery of God that I can see. And even if it was mockery, that would not be an offense under Russian Law. They have been charged with "hooliganism" when they committed no violence. So what then is their crime?

carl

So what's the Over/Under for turnout in the next Russian election? 135%?

3 August 2012 at 04:01  
Blogger Andrei said...

Once upon a time I might have agreed with you but the cultural degradation of the West up to and including the blasphemy that is homosexual marriage demonstrates that if rot is left unchecked it pervades the whole of society and drags it into the sewer.

3 August 2012 at 04:02  
Blogger non mouse said...

They're nobbut two-legged moggies with bags over their caterwauling heads! --Though I quite see the point of chasing them off sacred premises: who knows what further obscenities they would propagate once the bags were removed.

However, the case seems not unlike the Reece/Daley debacle we just considered. That is: publicity again accrues to disordered underlings who disrupt something society holds dear.

Meanwhile, the most devastating offenders against 'society' - politicians - continue to destroy what they can of Justice and Truth. And no hue and cry calls them to account; no outcry bellows their treachery-- to the detriment of their careers and reputations.

Chaucer was right again. He'd never heard of marxist socio-indoctrination, but he depicted all reputation as depending on pagan goddess Fame - and the lackey Eolus, who trumpets her whimsical arbitration throughout the universe. (House of Fame 1520-1867). These same principles apply to the modern treatment of reputation and "news."

So today, whichever way the wind blows, it blows but softly for Cameron and his soul-mate du jour...

Thank you, Your Grace, for highlighting this meeting of arch-hypocrites.

3 August 2012 at 06:44  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

carl

You may not agree with the Russian Orthodox believers in Russia but surely acknowledge that their are limits to legitimate protest.

The performance by these women in the Altar, a segregated, most sacred area in the church, where only members of the priesthood are allowed. In the song, the group prayed to the “Theotokos” (Mother of God, i.e. the Virgin Mary) to “chase Putin out”. The words of the final Christian liturgical hymn “Sanctus” (“holy, holy, holy, Lord God”) were changed by Pussy Riot to “shit, shit, shit of Lord God” and the patriarch in the song was called a bitch.

Legitimate protest or blasphemous holliganism?

That said, Pussy Riot’s defiance is exposing the authoritarianism they were railing against.

3 August 2012 at 09:41  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Stalinist hate crimes, Mmmmm!

Much to think about...

3 August 2012 at 11:17  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Dodo

Legitimate protest or blasphemous holliganism?

Where is the hooliganism? What violence did they do? Given the fact that they hurt no one, interrupted no service, and damaged no property, please enumerate the specific crimes they committed without using any form of the words 'blaspheme' or 'profane.' All of the following may be true ...

In the song, the group prayed to the “Theotokos” (Mother of God, i.e. the Virgin Mary) to “chase Putin out”. The words of the final Christian liturgical hymn “Sanctus” (“holy, holy, holy, Lord God”) were changed by Pussy Riot to “shit, shit, shit of Lord God” and the patriarch in the song was called a bitch.

... but none of it is a crime. besides, if it is blasphemy in the church, then it is also blasphemy outside the church. Yet if it had been filmed outside the church, then no charges would have been filed. So why does the location suddenly matter?

I didn't say that what they did was smart or clever. I explicitly said it would be offensive. I said it wasn't criminal. I said it wasn't an attack on religion. I believe they entered the church at a time when it was open to the public, so I am not sure how it could even be considered trespassing.

The proper way to handle this situation would be for an authority in the church to tell them to leave. If they didn't leave upon request, then that authority should call the police. The police order them to leave or be arrested. End of problem. But seven years in jail? For what? Calling a Patriarch a son of a bitch? Standing in a place only a priest is allowed to stand?

I should have to be careful what I said about the Pope in the future.

carl

3 August 2012 at 14:38  
Blogger John Magee said...

carl

I have great respect for the Eastern Orthodox Churches as brother and sister Catholics. The enormous sufferings of the Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox and Uniate Catholics under Communism and later Nazi occupation during WW II is on record for the world to see but it gets absolutely no attention in the West. The combined total of Orthodox martyrs in the last century (not including Armenians and Greeks in Turkey is around 100 million souls. The Orthodox Churches have always been national Churches with weak ties to the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. The Orthodox have never had one leader as the Western Latin Church has in the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, and the central authority the Latin Church has with the Magisterium. That lack of real unity and their nationalaism has caused Orthodoxy a lot of problems in the past. Don't forget that Eastern Othodoxy has been on the front lines being attacked by Islamic Jihad since the life time of Mohammed. Putin is a KGB thug but he certainly had a lot of admirers in the West after the USSR collapsed in 1991. I loath him. The Russian Orthodox Church wants to protect it's religious dominance and cultural influence just as the state churches of Western Europe still do (the few that are left)and Islamic Law of Sharia does in many majority Islamic nations today. Israel is dominated by one religion and that faith probably has more control of the people's lives in Israel than the Russian Orthodox Churh does in today's Russia. I don't like how the Russian Orthodox treats Protestant missionaries and Uniate catholics (Eastern Catholics in union with Rome)and I condemn Russian Orthodox leaders for their bigotry. But it is their homeland. Islam does the same in Saudi Arbia only worse and liberals in the West hardly blink an eye.

What these girls did in front of the iconostasis which has the holy doors that open to the altar where the Eucharist exists was blasphemy, pure and simple, and that was their intention.

3 August 2012 at 16:34  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

John Magee at 03:55

That’s a very subtle message you have hidden away there, Sir !

There is no doubt whatsoever that the ‘protesting’ foundation of the protestant churches has far reaching implications in the psyche of the ministers and the congregation. They unconsciously realise that what they are about is not the pure worship handed down through the centuries as practiced in Roman Catholicism in the West. So much easier for further ‘unpleasantries’ to go unchallenged, such as women in the ministry, and God help us, female bishops - what !

Carl, your reply to John immediately after is very telling. Now I will admit that a Protestant is going to see this event in a completely different light. I don't consider some spaces more sacred than others.. Absolutely no appreciation of the concept of ‘God’s house’. Hence, we have Protestant church buildings in Scandinavia that are as stark as a school classroom. No human warmth for our creator whatsoever. Stunningly sad, though of course you will defend your position to the end, so take this as an observation, and not the prelude to some futile argument pertaining to the very core of our religious differences.

3 August 2012 at 17:51  
Blogger John Knox's lovechild said...

Sacriligeous publicity stunt by minor rock group goes wrong.

I will tell you one thing, they will not be trying that one again.

3 August 2012 at 18:03  
Blogger John Magee said...

Inspector

Priestesses, bishopettes,openly gay bishops, gay "marriage", and every possible weird and wacky left wing new age trend or idea they can latch onto is what the liberal trendy Protestant Churches stand for these days and have since at least the late 60's. I do not include traditional Protestants and Evangelicals. The old mainline Protestant Churches have commited "churchacide", if there is such a word, to discribe churches that do their very best to rush and destroy themselves and throw out any credibility they might have had since the Reformation simply to show the world how libreal,tolerant,and inclusive they imagine themselves to be. No one cares about them anymore, least of all their members, as statistics show liberal churches hemmorhaging with losses as high as 60% since the early 1970's. This is nothing for us Catholics to gloat about. It's a tragedy for all Christians. The RC Church has it's own small army of of anti traditionalist liberation theology types within our own clergy who are ready and waiting to destoy our Church using the same methods of the liberal Protestant Churches if we ever have a weak Pope in the Vatican. Trust me.

3 August 2012 at 18:44  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

John Magee. You might not be aware, but at least one CoE bishop follows this site. We know this as he occasionally contributes. It is not unreasonable to suggest that many more of the forty odd others in England also do on a silent basis, such is Cranmer’s standing. Perhaps they nod sagely in their palaces as they silently agree with the traditional views that win out on these threads, but alas, that is all they are willing to do. To be a CoE bishop, you must conduct yourself as the liberals expect you to. Yet interestingly, if any were to break ranks with this unwritten code and actually spoke their mind, they would be propelled to the fore. There is nothing the press likes more than a ‘controversial’ bishop, except of course for a fallen priest.

CoE bishops - come on chaps. If this Anglican supportive RC has you wrong, now is the time to put him right. If he has you right, why not assert yourself in the role the early church had in mind for bishops, leadership...

Lovechild. They say rock music is the devils own. Having heard that racket those young pussies were putting out, surely punk is his excrement...

3 August 2012 at 19:10  
Blogger John Magee said...

Carl

Please read in the Gospels the events of Jesus's last Passover Feast the night before he was crucified for you gain as understanding of the meaning of the Eucharist for Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, High Church Anglicans, and even Lutherans. No matter what the grievences of the these feminist punk rocker girls was the fact is they deliberately spewed forth blasphemy and physically desecrated the Blessed Sacrament by their actions in front of the altar of the Cathedral of Christ the Savior Cathedral in Moscow. At the very least they were trespassing and that alone should demand they be arrested. by the way, the liberals in the West used to love Putin, now since he is a hard liner against gays that's all changed. When I first read he was ex KGB bells went off in my mind. "This man is a thug!".

Remember that the penalties for violating access to the tabernacle in The Holy of Holies in Jerusalem and its contents were so severe as to result in leprosy or death. Certain rituals inside the tabernacle were so specific that improper administration likewise resulted in death

No want wants to see the death penalty for these girls because of their desecration or blasphemy but as I said earlier. They could work in hospice for the elderly or in a cancer ward for a few months as punishment for tresspassing on sacred ground.

3 August 2012 at 19:17  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Mr Magee and Inspector

Well said, Sirs!

It's heartening to see people standing up so clearly for the the Body of Christ - physical and mystical.

3 August 2012 at 19:28  
Blogger John Magee said...

Inspector

Once in awhile I still feel tinge of sadness that I had to leave my Church of Ireland roots because it meant severing a treasured psychological link with my paternal Protestant history...I still have enormous respect and love for what I believe was good in Anglicanism and of course they are always my beloved brothers and sisters in Christ. Anglicanism in modern times enthusiastically embraced trendiness, modernism, and even a hint of self loathing. As a result, in my opinion, it has withered on the vine in the UK, the USA, and by whatever names it now has in Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. Ironically "old time" Anglicanism is thriving in Africa and other 3rd world places. I dearly loved my Anglican grandparents and other relatives dead and alive who were are still are members in that Church. My father was an agnostic and rejected organized religion. Now I am home in the Church of Rome at last. Home in the Catholic Church of my long dead mother... Deo gratius

Bless you.

Bless "Archbisop Cranmer" too for not excomunicating me from his blog or whatever it is long dead Anglican Archbishops have the power do to senior citizen bad boys.

3 August 2012 at 20:23  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

John Magee. Here’s a suggestion old chap, cast your mentality back a hundred years and keep it there. It’s quite remarkable you know, everything is so much clearer !

With this in mind, you can appreciate that the Church of Ireland was once worth turning up for on a Sunday. So, in the same way the Conservative party has left this man, so your former church has you. After all, we haven’t changed, it’s the others. But all is well in the end, you are in a better place, so to speak.

Dodo. Felicitations old pugnacious bird. A fellow does his best, what !

3 August 2012 at 20:35  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Mr Magee
Remember too the Church of Ireland remained as true to Rome as the law of the English occupiers permitted.

And have no fear, the host is a tolerant man and permits a range of religious opinions. Just avoid using the term "bigot" and you'll be fine.

Inspector
Keep up the work, Sir!

3 August 2012 at 23:49  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

I think at this point we can safely conclude that:

1. No one is going to cite an actual criminal offense for which these women could be legitimately charged.

2. The true offense they committed in the eyes of commenters on this thread was to disrespect the beliefs of the Orthodox Church within the confines a church. It is evidently very bad to offend the Orthodox in this manner. This is somehow different from (say) offending Muslims by insulting the Prophet Mohammed which is not bad at all.

3. Telling them to leave the premises is not a sufficient remedy for giving such offense. There must be legal punishment, although the basis for such punishment is not going to be stated.

4. "Hooliganism" is another word for blasphemy.

I understand now.

carl

3 August 2012 at 23:53  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

carl

Do give it a rest!

In the Soviet Union the word khuligan is used to refer to scofflaws or political dissenters. Whether we like it or not, "hooliganism" is listed as a criminal offense and used as a catch-all charge for prosecuting unapproved behavior. It's the law and these young women would have known that - it's why they did what they did.

In Britain the charge might have been "breach of the peace" which covers a multitude of sins from indecency through to acts of civil disorder.

Is there no equivalent in the "land of the free"?

4 August 2012 at 00:06  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Ps
The young women have acknowledged they committed an "ethical mistake" although have plead not guilty to the charge of hooliganism motivated by religious hatred.

For me, a public apology to the Church for offending it and its members, whatever they might think of its politics, would suffice.

Protest through gratuitous offence to the priests of any church or invading places they hold Holy is bound to incite a reaction. That's what it's done for.

Let's not complain when it achieves its desired ends!

4 August 2012 at 00:42  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Dodo

Do give it a rest!

Think I'll pass on that advice, thanks.

In the Soviet Union ...

You mean Russia? The Soviet Union hasn't existed for two decades. Or has Soviet law now become the acceptable standard?

... the word khuligan ...

Do you speak Russian? If you are going to make arguments from original languages you should at least speak the language first.

... is used to refer to scofflaws or political dissenters.

Well, yes. I understand that the Russian criminal court system is being deployed to suppress their dissent. I was asking a more objective question. Did they actually do anything worthy of criminal punishment? What did they do that was criminal in an objective sense? They entered a building when it was open to the public. They interrupted nothing. They disturbed no worship. They damaged nothing. They took pictures of themselves in a ridiculous act of protest as art. I understand they offended people. I agree they committed an ethical mistake. Why is that mistake criminally prosecutable? Or are we now going to accept any exercise of any law so long as it serves our interests? Yezhov enforced criminal law, you understand.

In Britain the charge might have been "breach of the peace" which covers a multitude of sins from indecency through to acts of civil disorder.

It would be nice if there was ... you know ... an actual breach of the peace. In the US, the Police would have come and told them to leave. They would have left. That would have been the end of it. Perhaps you could enumerate some actions that 1) constitute a breach of peace and 2) involve something other than an offense against Catholic doctrine?

I'll be honest with you. I watched this video months ago when I first heard about this story. I watched it fully intending to be righteously offended. When I finished watching, my honest reaction was "That's it?"

carl

4 August 2012 at 01:14  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dodo

Kind words. Thanks for the warning. But I don't believe in censorship. I do not swear, use filthy language, and I do try to mind my Ps and Qs here. I am unashamedly, but not always, partial to my Catholic faith and Western Christian Civilization, my European ethnic DNA, and those who share my political beliefs which are right wing and traditional. Am I a bigot? Perhaps. In our multicultural society radical leftist political parties and fanatic religious groups can feel exactly as I do, and sometimes they are violent, yet they are celebrated by our leaders and elite for their "diversity". That kind of acceptable bigotry by our liberal society is politically correctness run amuck.

4 August 2012 at 01:18  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dodo

I forgot to add that I do not hate people who are different from me. I also hope they do not hate me because I am diffrent from them. I love all God's children as individuals and as equals.

4 August 2012 at 01:24  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

carl

This ain't a Catholic - protestant 'thing. Really, it isn't. Regardless of whether I or other Christians believe in the Real Presence, these women appear to have knowingly committed an criminal offence under the law of their country.

They set out to offend and annoy people - to scoff at the State and at religion. You are not the yardstick of what might or might not offend Russian people. They did so to evoke a response. They got it.

I do not speak Russian but I did do some research on Russian law. You might want to too. The term 'hooligan' is used differently to the American usage.

"Did they actually do anything worthy of criminal punishment? What did they do that was criminal in an objective sense?"

You're the one who goes on about the right of nations to rule themselves. Isn't that up to the Russians? They have allegedly broken a Russian law and are now standing trial.

4 August 2012 at 02:21  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dodo

Well said. Somehow the word "hooligan" loses something in the translation from Russian to English. If you remember press statements from the Soviet's during the Cold War era to the world they were always using the term "hooligan" to discribe people who dared to do anything to protest the Soviet State. From dissident writers, avant garde artists, and even rock bands they were all called "hooligans" which of course sounds almost funny to our ears. When I think of "hooligans" I imagine teenagers up to their normal shenanigans. These girls were bent on insulting and hurting believers. It's that simple. If they wanted to protest the Patriarch's coziness with the thug Putun they could have done so outside his residence or when he was driven to events. Their name says it all to me.

4 August 2012 at 02:56  
Blogger John Magee said...

Inspector

Dear Sir, I understand what you mean. Our parents and all previous generations had the comfort and knowledge all their lives knowing that no matter how much the world around them changed their values, faith, and culture would continue. That all ended for people like us who love Western Christian Civilization in the late 60's when our society lost it's anchor and had a complete moral meltdown. Here is a quote from a novel by the American novelist Thomas Wolfe from a novel he wrote in 1940 entitled "You can't go home again":

"You can't go home Again. It's what happens to all of us once you grow old and time passes by.

You can't go back home to your family, back home to your childhood ... back home to a young man's dreams of glory and of fame ... back home to places in the country, back home to the old forms and systems of things which once seemed everlasting but which are changing all the time – back home to the escapes of Time and Memory."

Inspector. You and I can always go home to what was good in the past in our memories and in our hearts. We have lived to see the best in Western Christian Civilization wrecked and we see going on around us everyday. Sadly much of the destruction of our culture and civilization has been engineered by the very people we trusted to preserve it: the church and our governments.

I am a proud reactionaty speaking.

4 August 2012 at 04:27  
Blogger John Magee said...

Inspector

What is this wonderful future the elites have planned for us? You saw it in the riots in London last year.

4 August 2012 at 04:29  
Blogger John Magee said...

OPS.. I meant to say I am a proud REACTIONARY.... sorry if that offends anyone.

4 August 2012 at 05:49  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

JM: "Our parents and all previous generations had the comfort and knowledge all their lives knowing that no matter how much the world around them changed their values, faith, and culture would continue."

How do you account for women fighting for the franchise, and winning it? How do you account for the Labour Movement? How do you account for the change in the class system between the world wars? And so on? I think you imagine the UK was always like it was in the 1950s, or how the Daily Mail portrays it anyway.

4 August 2012 at 14:37  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

John Magee. in the late 60's when our society lost it's anchor

Indeed, the anchor is dragging the reluctant society, and it is a society that doesn’t want change. One senses that it all went wrong when we allowed the ‘young’ too much influence in our affairs. The young being anyone under 40.

One rather thinks the prognosis for the future is actually good. This man is a member of The Freedom Association. On joining, in his early forties, he was probably on of the youngest members. Now, it is has a presence in an increasing number of universities. This association will provide the up and coming TRUE right wing politicians of the future. The director of the organisation, Simon Richards, can be found on the Daily Mail ‘Right minds’ site. He is a first rate fellow, most amenable, and the Inspector is honoured to fall him a personal friend.

4 August 2012 at 14:49  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0. values, faith, and culture

Of course, one doesn’t expect too much from a chap for whom those above principles are somewhat foreign. After all, you now have your own, of sorts...

Those particulars above TRANSCEND the social improvements of your second paragraph. To explain it better, you need to embrace a hierarchical view, with those three truths at the top, and everything else coming in underneath...

4 August 2012 at 14:59  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

4 August 2012 at 15:18  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "This man is a member of The Freedom Association."

I'm surprised you view yourself as a libertarian. Very surprised. Or does negative freedom imply living within a sandbox constructed by an authoritarian, mono-cultured State run by an elite as far as you're concerned? That is, one is free as long as one only makes the choices you think are appropriate?

"Of course, one doesn’t expect too much from a chap for whom those above principles are somewhat foreign. After all, you now have your own, of sorts..."

That's strange. I'm an affluent, well-educated, well-travelled, home-owning, broadsheet-reading, law-abiding, middle-class, tax-payer and I hold mainstream values, being a core part of our mainstream culture. I'd have thought you were rather more along the lines of the off-piste lot, especially with your affiliations with a foreign, power-hungry, corporatist religion.

4 August 2012 at 15:19  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0. I'm surprised you view yourself as a libertarian

Here’s a thing, so was the Inspector ! You see, at the time he hadn’t quite grasped the difference between libertarianism (...that’s a good thing...) and liberalism (...AHEM, well, look around you in society, does one need to say more...)

The essence of the first being we take responsibility for ourselves, that’s us and our family. What we don’t do is look to the state or incidentally our church, to define what we are, what we can do or what we can think. That is the core, it really is ! Everything else falls so easily into place.

By the way, should have qualified previous post with for whom those above principles AS THIS MAN SEES THEM are somewhat foreign. One accepts you as an upright citizen, and that you have values as an educated man should, albeit in a different mix to this man...

4 August 2012 at 15:38  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "The essence of the first being we take responsibility for ourselves, that’s us and our family."

The difference between the two is to do with the concept of freedom, I'd say. Libertarians are all about negative freedom, which is just a freedom from constraint. Liberalism is a broad church, of course, but it allows for notions of positive freedom as well as negative freedom. The difference between the two is illustrated when thinking about aspiration. A libertarian is nominally happy to ignore the fact that we are all socially constructed, and that some of us have a better upbringing and opportunities than others. A liberal is nominally happy to interfere to some extent in the marketplace to promote equality of opportunity. Also, liberals think that to actually be free one may also need to recognise in one's own mind that one has freedom. Those two things are essential in a true meritocracy.

4 August 2012 at 15:52  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0. A fellow has to go out, but a brief observation of your post first. Would not say that freedom from constraint is ‘negative’, not at all. You seem to be using ‘liberal’ in a nineteenth century context, stemming as it did from religious non conformists. With Marx came socialism, and that was the day liberalism could finally free itself from that social responsibility item, but never quite got round to doing it. If you take take your post and substitute in ‘socialism’ , you’ll actually find it reads better...

{DASHES OUT OF THE DOOR...}

4 August 2012 at 16:18  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

"Would not say that freedom from constraint is ‘negative’, not at all."

Negative freedom is a technical term in political philosophy. Isaiah Berlin and his Two Concepts of Liberty essay, you see.

"You seem to be using ‘liberal’ in a nineteenth century context, stemming as it did from religious non conformists."

You seem to be using it in the American way, meaning something almost synonymous with socialism. A nonsense, of course.

4 August 2012 at 16:28  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dan JO

I was born in the late 1940's. The era of the 1950's are my first memories. It was a time when over 90% of babies were born in a home with a married female mother and male father. Divorce was so rare I can't remember knowing anyone with divorced parents, fathers worked and mothwers stayed home and took care of their children, women could work if they chose or had to, women by the 1950's had the right to vote for two generations, gays were not gay they were still happy homosexuals, the economies of Europe, the USA, Canada, Australia, Japan, and Germany were booming. 1950's rock n roll pop music sounds like Beethoven today when compared to the lunatics who make racket and smash guitars on stage while a hysterical stoned crowd cheers. In spite of the Cold War and all that it threatened with the possibility of nuclear war there was peace. There were no riots with savages tearing cities apart like the world saw live on cable TV in London and other cities last summer and the USA's race riots were a decade in the future. Drug use was almost unknown. Murder, rape, and robberies were rare. There wasn't a mosque on every corner of our cities and terrorism was almost unheard in Europe, North America, and Australia. Yes, it was a "dull" time and people were happy and the idea of truly a happy time like the 1950's infuriates leftists and liberals because it WAS a good time to live through even with it's faults and hypocrisy. If you hate people being happy and secure, yes, the 1950's was a "terrible" time when compared to 2012. My guess is you are under 50. You will easily live to see a future when today's crime rates and riots will be looked at with nostalgia. Enjoy the future with an Islamic Caliphate stretching from Indonesia to Morocco and in full Jihad mode to really have a chance to destroy Western Civilization. By 2040 most British and European cities will have majority Muslim populations. Enjoy your future! I enjoyed the past and mercifully I will be dead when you and your generation have to face the future I just discribed.

That's my opinion and what I remember. If anything I said offends you report me to the UN Human Rights Commission or take me to the EU Court for "hate speech".

4 August 2012 at 19:53  
Blogger non mouse said...

Well said, John Magee.
I almost hope they would take me to their eu-so-called-court .... so long as they made it very, very, public. I'd love a chance to let them show how contemptible they are.

That is... while some people still are capable of distinguishing between Justice and Injustice; Truth and Lies; Freedom and Slavery.

Hmmm.. too many provisos here, already.

4 August 2012 at 20:12  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dan JO

I forgot the real reason the 1950's is so loathed by the left today and by stupid young people who are lost in a world of sex, drugs, and so called rock n roll. Patriotism. That is the word the liberals and left truly hate (unless it's love of the welfare state or some Communist hell hole like North Korea or Cuba) That's what the 1950's represents to leftist losers, patriotism. A time when people from Britain, Canada, the USA, and a long long list of other countries still unashamedly loved their homelands and didn't have the guilt trip laid upon them that came later in the late 1960's for real or imagined stuff from the past.

4 August 2012 at 20:14  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

JM: "Divorce was so rare I can't remember knowing anyone with divorced parents [...]"

There's an obvious reason for that.

"[...] fathers worked and mothwers stayed home and took care of their children, women could work if they chose or had to [...]"

Women who did worked mostly worked in part-time jobs or in an a sub-set of jobs. There was a very pronounced glass ceiling. Women stayed at home for a number of reasons, but one was that the labour-saving devices we're familiar with were only just becoming available. For instance, people just had coal fires which needed to be cleaned out and set every day.

"[...] gays were not gay they were still happy homosexuals [...]"

Hardly. It was illegal to act on it and people went to prison, there was blackmail, careers were ruined, and so on.

"[...] the economies of Europe, the USA, Canada, Australia, Japan, and Germany were booming."

They were booming because of the massive reconstruction and regeneration after the world war 15 years earlier. That's the one where millions of people died in horrible circumstances.

"In spite of the Cold War and all that it threatened with the possibility of nuclear war there was peace."

People were genuinely and actively scared of a nuclear holocaust. We nearly had one with the Cuban missile crisis ... which appears to be closer than most people realised at the time. That mindset went on right through the 1960s and 1970s. Bruce Kent and CND seem quite silly now but they were in the news quite regularly. The Greenham Common protest actually started in the early 1980s. Even I remember the leaflets telling us what to do in the event of a nuclear alert.

"Murder, rape, and robberies were rare."

There were 346 homicides in England and Wales in 1950. There were 619 in 2012. There's 61 million people in the UK now, compared to 50 million in 1950. More of us living closer together too, I think. Rape statistics can't be readily compared. We have much more stuff to steal, and we don't live in communities now.

"If you hate people being happy and secure, yes, the 1950's was a "terrible" time when compared to 2012."

I love people being happy. The thing is, we're much freer now and our standard of living is higher. Both sexes are freer, too. We're much better travelled, and more aware of the world. Infant mortality rates have fallen dramatically. Life expectancy had increased. And so on.

"Enjoy your future!"

Thanks! I enjoy the present too, as it goes. Unlike you, it seems.

"By 2040 most British and European cities will have majority Muslim populations."

That's BNP bollocks.

"If anything I said offends you report me to the UN Human Rights Commission or take me to the EU Court for "hate speech"."

I'm a liberal, so that's hardly likely. Also, if I were minded to invoke the law then I'd be using our own courts.

4 August 2012 at 20:27  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

JM: "That's what the 1950's represents to leftist losers, patriotism."

Actually, to this liberal, it was a sense of optimism after half a century of devastation that the social order had inflicted. I like optimism. I'd like to give you some but I doubt someone as jaundiced as you would welcome it. You are happier to be Victor Meldrew in a black shirt, I think.

4 August 2012 at 20:33  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Also, at the start of the last century, there was significant disquiet in some circles about the physical health of the general population. In part, that is what gave rise to very dubious things like eugenics, along side philanthropy and interest in health and nutrition by people like William Kellogg, and interest in poverty by Joseph Rowntree.

4 August 2012 at 20:42  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

In 1966, the police superintendent in charge of the Cheltenham division gave an interview to the local press, saying that if reported criminal acts ever reached 10000 a year, he would feel he had let the community down and he would be obliged to resign. In 2006, the story was partly revisited. RCAs had exceeded 60000 at that stage. We’ll say the division’s population has doubled in that time, but even so...

4 August 2012 at 20:48  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

JM: "I forgot the real reason the 1950's is so loathed by the left today [...]"

I like to think I have a more realistic view of the time than the Daily Mail, that's all. I have no dislike for the 1950s at all.

Of course, the real reason the 1950s is looked back on with such fondness by the fringe right-wing is because it was after the hideous destruction of the previous 30 years and it was a mostly white and mostly mono-cultured, albeit class-ridden, society where Christianity, which is used as a sort of cypher for Old School Britishness, still had influence.

4 August 2012 at 20:48  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

@Danjo

1950S? You have the wrong century. With some folks here it is more like the 1850s. I have to confess I would describe myself as a right wing libertarian (almost), but I come to this site, and after reviewing some comments I feel that I am reduced to the status of a Guardian reader.

Discuss....

4 August 2012 at 22:17  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

Also, in respect of the article here, without wanting to back Carl Jacobs, those who criticise him might want to think that if they believe God dwells in buildings are actually reducing God to something that is not a God. A God by definition is Omi- something or other??!

4 August 2012 at 22:20  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Mr Twigg

You like have missed the point. Whether or not you believe in the Real Presence, whether or not you accept the sacred nature of the Church, those that worship there do. That's the point under Russian law.

They set out to cause offence to the Church. They succeeded. Under Russian law its a crime. They knew this.

5 August 2012 at 00:33  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

And omnipresent is the word.

Do you believe in the incarnation of God through Jesus Christ - true God and true man? Of course you do. This doesn't contradict omnipresence - and neither does the Real Presence.

5 August 2012 at 00:37  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dodo

Exactly. Even though the cathedral in Moscow is open to the public it's still private property. Had they performed their "act" in a bank, a hotel lobby, invaded a private home, or in the Moscow underground or on any other private property they would have been arrested. After all the posts here it's amazing some people still people can't understand that what they did, no matter their grievences, was blasphemy and deliberate act of desecration of the house of God. Had they cavorted in a mosque in Moscow the end of this story would have been quiet different. The bodies of these girls would have been discovered in some park minus their heads.

5 August 2012 at 01:38  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dan JO said:

Of course, the real reason the 1950s is looked back on with such fondness by the fringe right-wing is because it was after the hideous destruction of the previous 30 years and it was a mostly white and mostly mono-cultured, albeit class-ridden, society where Christianity, which is used as a sort of cypher for Old School Britishness, still had influence

You made my point and you defined the left's hatred of that era perfectly. Thank you.

5 August 2012 at 01:43  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5 August 2012 at 06:56  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

JM: "You made my point and you defined the left's hatred of that era perfectly. Thank you."

Well, to be precise, it's why you believe "the left" hates that decade. Otherwise, you're welcome. It was no effort though, one can see it immediately in the Daily Mail comments area. It's how the Daily Mail sells papers and its brand.

5 August 2012 at 06:56  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

JM: "Enjoy the future with an Islamic Caliphate stretching from Indonesia to Morocco and in full Jihad mode to really have a chance to destroy Western Civilization."

Do you really think those countries can form a Caliphate? Lordy, just look at the Middle East today. It would need to be created like the Ottoman Caliphate: by conquest.

5 August 2012 at 07:06  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Paul Twigg. It’s completely impossible you know, we are just not wired up for it - to accept that God being God, He is with us all the time and wherever. But we can accept that we can go to visit Him in His house. And we dress up for it too, as you would when meeting someone important. What’s more, women should cover their heads too, lest randy young Inspectors spend their time in there admiring feminine trestles and not getting down to worship...

5 August 2012 at 13:47  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dan JO

Last year we were told the "Arab Spring" would bring freedom and democracy to Egypt and the Middle East. The Muslim Brotherhood is now in the position to gain control of Egypt where Coptic Christians are facing intense persecution once again (read about the Coptics Christians in the Egyptian village of Dahshur and why had to flee for their lives last week because of theats from a local Muslim Brotherhood mullah and his mobs). Radical Islam now controls Tunesia and Lybia while Syria faces a civil war. Turkey has a large Islamist party and Iraq will probably fall to radical Muslims controlled by Iran soon. We all kmow what kind of Islamic hell Iran has been for the past 30+ years and why the thugs who control country are desperatley racing to build a nuclear bomb. Afghanistan will collapse to the Taliban within a week after NATO forces leave. Pakistan is a catastrophe in he making and DOES have nukes. Radical Muslims are active in the most populous Islamic nation in the world, Indonesia, and even in Mindinao a Muslim area in the southern Phillipine Islands. Don't forget that radical Muslims almost got away with killing Pope John Paul II in Manila during his visit to majority Catholic Phillipines in 1994. Wasn't it a Muslim Turk who DID shoot him in May, 1981 in front of St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican? I believe an Islamic Caliphate is a very real possibility.

5 August 2012 at 15:58  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5 August 2012 at 16:52  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

JM: "I believe an Islamic Caliphate is a very real possibility."

You understand, I hope, that there are different branches of Islam and that at least two of them are vehemently opposed to each other? You know that Iran and Syria are bastions of one type and that Saudi Arabia, for example, is a bastion and promoter of another type?

5 August 2012 at 16:52  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dan JO

I think for the sake of destroying the West and a final attempt to conquer the world for Islam the major Islamic sects: Sunni, Shi'ites, Wahhabis, Suffis, and any others I do know of would gladly forget their differences and unite into a vast Caliphate (empire) with Iranian and Pakistani nukes and missiles ready for the final "kill". This is about a religion that wants to conqueor the world for their god. Not necessarily about politics. The lunatic Ahmadinejad believes the 12th Imam or the Mahdi, an Islamic messiah, is ready to appear soon and lead this holy war agaisnt Israel and the West. Don't forget. The USSR and Nazi Germany, complete political opposites, were allies from late August 1939 until Germany attacked the USSR on June 21, 1941. People forget that the oil that enabled the Luftwaffe to bomb Britain during the Blitz after September 1940 came from Soviet oil fields. Then suddenly in June 1941 after Nazi Germany attacked the USSR, Britain and the USSR (and after December 7, 1941 the USA), became the best of friends for a united war effort against Nazi Germany. It's the old adage about wars and survival: "Sometimes the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

6 August 2012 at 18:42  
Blogger Just Me said...

Are we forgetting this >> http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1001232_cameron_gun_teenager_behind_bars

7 August 2012 at 17:29  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

JM: "The lunatic Ahmadinejad believes the 12th Imam or the Mahdi, an Islamic messiah, is ready to appear soon and lead this holy war agaisnt Israel and the West."

The Mahdi is core belief of a large part of Shia Islam. That's not what makes him a loony. You should consider it like the belief in the Second Coming of Jesus; pretty weird stuff to non-believers but not particularly fringe in the scheme of things.

Well, I'll leave you with your doom and gloom about a pan-Caliphate as I regard it as just typical BNP-type stuff. There's no point trying to wave it a me as an argument I'm afraid as I'm rather more worldly than the run-of-the-mill BNP membership.

8 August 2012 at 06:30  
Blogger len said...

Satan tries to counterfeit Bible prophesy(he knows the Bible better than most Christians) to negate God`s plans and to cause confusion and doubt.

Satan does this by replicating (causing parallel events to dupe the unsuspecting and the gullible)and he is a master at doing this.

The danger to all humanity is that Ahmadinejad believes he has to destroy the Jewish nation before the 12th Imman will appear.

The 12th Imman, the Mahdi is a counterfeit' Christ'.

Jesus warned that many would come 'in His Name' to deceive to confuse and to lead people astray.

It is the duty of all Christians to make sure the Truth, the Gospel of Jesus Christ (who is the ONLY Saviour of ALL Humanity ) is preached to all the Nations.

8 August 2012 at 08:12  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

8 August 2012 at 22:07  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Preach the Gospel of Jesus the Christ, the Annointed One, to all nations len?

Islam is not the only Abrahamic faith awaiting the arrival of an earthly Messiah.

8 August 2012 at 22:09  
Blogger len said...

Your point is Dodo?.

8 August 2012 at 23:37  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Is plain to see len.

As you said:

"It is the duty of all Christians to make sure the Truth, the Gospel of Jesus Christ (who is the ONLY Saviour of ALL Humanity ) is preached to all the Nations."

9 August 2012 at 01:35  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dan JO

Anyone can see that Egypt will be taken over soon by the Muslim Brotherhood. That was never supposed to happened last year when the so called "Ara Spring" began, was it. How can you ignore what is happening now in Egypt Lybia, Tunesia, and Syria and radical islam?. The moment Romeny becomes President of the USA it will all suddenly be his fault. That's how irrational left wingers project their mistakes. They play the blame game.

By the way. Where did Syria get all those chemical weapons? Possibly from Saddam Hussein when the UN were inspecting Iraq for them back before the Iraq War when Saddam Hussein was busy shipping his WMD's out of the country?

9 August 2012 at 16:20  
Blogger John Magee said...

"Arab Spring"

9 August 2012 at 18:27  
Blogger malych90 said...

Part 1

If I may shed some light on the emotional understanding of the potential perception of the Pussy Riot act within the Russian Orthodox community.

If you want to understand the importance of religion for Russians (only limited amount of them, i.e. 35-45% of population, are religious, not forgetting that Russia is historically a truly multinational and multireligious state, and not because of immigrants like in the UK, but because of the vastness of the country, as there are Russian Buddhists in Altay, Russian Muslims in the Volga Region (Tatarstan etc.) and the Caucauses (Chechnya, Dagestan etc. and Russian Pagans in Far North of Russia), or I would rather say the importance of spirituality and soulfulness for Russians (let's say 80-90% of the population for sure are concerned about their soul in particular and such matter in general), then this film will tell you a lot about Orthodox values in the form that is more accepted in the West, i.e. the cinematic experience, easy to chew, but leaves you with thoughts afterwards.

This film is The Island by Pavel Lungin, released in 2005, it has caused a complete shift toward religious values, the cinemas in Russia were full for about 3 to 4 months (commercially it was more successful than Hollywood blockbusters), young and old were openly crying and were emotionally lifted afterwards. That said, it never got up and running in the West (or the UK, it was released and advertised by Curzon Cinemas a few yars ago), but did become hugely popular within the religious communnity (do read user reviews in IMDB for that matter and a lot of religious aspects of Russian Orthodoxy that are applicable to this film are well explained by Western people for themselves).
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0851577/

You can buy it on DVD or download it from Russian or Western torrents here:

DVD:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Island-DVD-Pyotr-Mamonov/dp/B003DQ135Y/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1344495800&sr=8-2

Torrents:

http://www.videoanons.ru/film/eng_film/drama/111183826-Ostrov_Ostrov_The_Island_by_Pavel_Lungin_DVD_9.html

http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/6583162/

http://www.torrentreactor.net/torrents/2548936/The-Island-%28Ostrov%29

http://www.eutorrents.me/movies/2010/ostrov-2006.html

http://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1586930

http://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2931538

You may also find it on many other ones etc., though I cannot guarantee access to it here in London and all legal choices are up to you.

I can say that the Russian Chruch as an establishment has turned many potential worshippers away from itself, myself included, I will never go to a Russian church unless I know the chaplain myself and will go there only to listen to him personally, as many are in opposition to the ROC in the first place as well.

The stories include:

Patriach Kirill (codename Katriarch Pirill in Russia, usually portrayed as a cat on a banister, linguists amongst you can research the Russian wordplay, see picture: http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/ramenskii/35510414/474/640.jpg) and Breguet watch (fine in itself to certain extent, but retouching images of it is blatent cheating of anybody looking up to him):

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/06/world/europe/in-russia-a-watch-vanishes-up-orthodox-leaders-sleeve.html

10 August 2012 at 10:16  
Blogger malych90 said...

Part 2

The Church of Saviour the Christ Cathedral itself is a huge fake, as it has a massive office/commercial centre underneath it featuring the most expensive "Holy" carwash in Moscow, the "Holy" restaurant (bookable at ridiculous rates per hour) and, alas, the largest depository (of cash and gold) in Russia (as nobody would look for it here, but see for yourself, the huge block on which the cathedral stand is this "Holy commercial Eldorado" - http://www.profi-forex.org/system/news/9_xcc.jpg and http://www.hnir.ru/uploads/foto001.jpg), used by the organised criminals (you can research a lot of links for connections between the mafia and the Church, as Russian mafia are unbeliavably religious and obviously Orthodox and the Church sort of plays with that as well as it plays with the State) and the construction (especially such a quick one, about two years or so) was actually sponsored by the organised crime groups:

http://ibigdan.livejournal.com/11331552.html (an article by a Russian blogger about the businesss owned by ROC, all in Russian, but the diagram there is enough to make you think)

These issues mean that for a huge number of people this particular cathedral has not been accepted by the people as the main Russian cathedral (which state TV always claims it is to defend its position on Pussy Riot), so a lot of ground here to say that this is not a Holy place, but a commercial parlour, hence no blasphemy whatsoever, unless for a blasphemy commited by ROC itself long before Pussy Riot.

Igumen kissing Putin's hand, very recent event, (happened in Valaam, the monastery as close to the God as possible), definitely the individual's own decision, nonetheless shows the whole interplay between the State and religion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHLtH2-3CWc

Putin himself not happy about as you will see, but no idea with what exactly (yet another public aknowledgement of no secularity in Russia maybe?).

Other examples are numerous, here are some links:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gEbvPETzYwu0Rv1iQA1NVDHcpV3w?docId=CNG.d342eae2724bce3cf6b2804924fe078c.241

http://www.gazeta.ru/news/seealso/2276333.shtml (here are so many "crimes" by the Church that Gazeta.Ru has created a log of them)

http://expert.ru/expert/2012/17/povod-nachat-razgovor/ (analysis of how ROC moved away from being a Church)

I thought of writing the usual normal comment on Pussy Riot, that "they have commited a provocative act, unappropriate, etc. but the 7 years, why", etc etc... However, rereading what I ve written myself, I d say both Putin and ROC deserve it, as this may shake up at least some movement for a change within ROC, which will benefit both Russia and the church itself not mentioned that getting rid of Putin is essential for the country to survive and develop, otherwise, Syrian scenario is iminent.

10 August 2012 at 10:16  
Blogger malych90 said...

Here is an external link to my post, if you ever decide you need to share it with your English-speaking friends:

http://malych90.livejournal.com/

10 August 2012 at 10:54  
Blogger John Magee said...

Malych

What you say about the Cathedral of Christ the Savior may be in part true but please do not forget that that vast new and very beautiful Cathedral was built in the 1990's after the collapse of Communism in the USSR in 1991 as an emotional response by the Russian people to 74 years of horrendous persecution and millions of deaths all done in the name of the Marxist atheism. Before the early 1930's there was another Christ the Savior Cathedral built in the mid 19th century (looking almoste exactly like the new Cathedral today) on the same location of the new Cathedral you discribed. It was ordered destroyed by Stalin but was so difficult to tear down he finally ordered it blown up. Old movies of it being blown up can still be seen on Youtube and other places on the internet. Great suffering is also part of the story of the Christ the Savior Cathedral in Moscow.

11 August 2012 at 00:32  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

You've gotta hand it to the Russians, they're not liberal, anything goes in their views!

The Russian Deputy Prime Minister called Madonna a 'moralising slut' after she spoke out against the Putin government - who could disagree?

He also told Madonna to 'take off your cross, or put on your knickers' after she vowed to back the gay community at her concert in St Petersburgh - again, a pretty reasonable comment.

Madonna outraged the Kremlin by calling for the release of girl punk band who sang an anti-Putin song - and what business is it of this miscreant?

11 August 2012 at 18:22  

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