Wednesday, August 08, 2012

Sentamu challenges UK/EU easing of sanctions against Zimbabwe

His Grace has written numerous times about Zimbabwe (eg HERE and HERE) and the horrors being inflicted upon or fellow Anglicans by excommunicated bishop Nolbert Kunonga (eg HERE, HERE and HERE). The Archbishop of Canterbury has boldly gone where no politician dared. And now HM Government has decided to relax sanctions against the Mugabe regime.

With permission, His Grace reproduces an article written by the Archbishop of York and which appears in today's Times:

On Sunday 9th December 2007, I took off my clerical collar and cut it up during an interview on the Andrew Marr Show on BBC1. I said I would not wear it again until Robert Mugabe had ceased to be in power in Zimbabwe.

I made this prophetic statement as Robert Mugabe had slowly but surely cut up the identity of the Zimbabwean people into tiny pieces.

It is fair to say that I did not expect still to be collarless five years on. I’m even asked occasionally why I have forgotten to wear one – but my answer remains that this corrupt and oppressive regime has simply been allowed to carry on for too long.

Whilst the British Government seem to be considering easing some sanctions against Mr Mugabe and his personal allies, I am not convinced that the time has come to weaken international opposition to the President of Zimbabwe’s irresponsible, undemocratic, lawless, and at times brutal regime. I certainly won’t be placing an order for a new clerical collar at Wippells just yet.

We cannot allow Robert Mugabe off the hook. When I cut up my clerical collar, I said I would not put it on again until Mr Mugabe had gone from office – we need to stand in solidarity with the people of Zimbabwe and not forget the abuses and exploitation they have suffered at the hands of that administration.

The reason given by Her Majesty’s Government for this ‘step change’ in relations with Zimbabwe is the work going in to drafting a new constitution for that country. The recent meeting of European Union foreign ministers, which agreed to lift these restrictions on Mr Mugabe’s colleagues, have made this decision dependent only upon whether a ‘credible’ referendum is held on the new constitution. Perhaps if they had read the draft constitution they might have taken a different view.

For example, amongst its many more reasonable provisions, the draft constitution cancels the right of Zimbabweans to appeal to a supreme legal body to protect their fundamental rights.

I am advised that, at this point, Zimbabwe’s draft constitution has been signed off by both the Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) and President Robert Mugabe’s ZANU PF.

Across the Southern Africa Development Community (SADC) region people are standing up for their rights, and for the freedom to make their countries and communities prosperous and successful.

Yet too often, they are undermined by governments and laws that attack the very foundations of the rule of law. Land clearances, broken contracts, bribery, extortion, dispossession and oppression are rife.

There is only one institution in Southern Africa that has the power to respond. The SADC Tribunal is the only place where individuals, companies and groups can take their governments to an independent court. The SADC's regional body began meeting yesterday and senior officials will be travelling to Harare in the next two weeks to assess the country’s political progress following announcement of the draft constitution. Completion of Zimbabwe’s draft constitution and other key developments in preparing for elections will come under scrutiny this week when the group resumes assessment of political improvements which include media reform.

Last year, following pressure from Zimbabwe’s Robert Mugabe, the Tribunal was suspended then dissolved by the SADC Heads of State. This move has denied SADC citizens access to justice and the protection of human rights when legal systems in their own countries fail. By dissolving the SADC Tribunal, the leaders of these nations have colluded with Mr Mugabe in his denial of justice to the citizens of Zimbabwe.

It is now time for all communities and organisations within the Southern African region to stand together as one to petition their Heads of State to reinstate and strengthen the mandate of the SADC Tribunal regional court.

Furthermore, Zimbabwe’s new draft constitution also rules out any compensation from the Zimbabwe Government for land that has been taken by the government from its legal owner, stating: “no compensation is payable in respect of its acquisition”.

It directly prevents anyone applying to a court regarding compensation for land: “no person may apply to a court for the determination of any question relating to compensation”.

The draft says that land can be acquired simply by a notice in the gazette: “whereupon the land vests in the state with full title with effect from the date of the publication of the notice”.

Most alarmingly of all, it says in section 4.29(3)c that discrimination is now legal: “the acquisition may not be challenged on the grounds it was discriminatory”.

Here, for the first time since apartheid was abolished in South Africa, we see a blatantly racist and tribalistic clause added to what may become the new constitution of Zimbabwe. Farmers and farm workers have much to fear from this move.

Douglas Mwonzora, spokesman for Morgan Tsvangirai’s Movement for Democratic Change, has welcomed the move because take-overs in the future will now be able to be done ‘legally’! It would be tragic for Southern Africa if Mugabe’s legacy to the region is a constitution which not only permits but actively promotes discrimination on the grounds of ethnicity.

The SADC states stood together successfully to defeat apartheid in South Africa. They must now stand together to stop human rights abuses and bring an end to government-sponsored violence within member states which has led to deaths, shocking injuries and mass scale displacements.

Mr Mugabe’s regime has been propped up these past three years due to the discovery of a huge diamond deposit. It is being exploited at the expense of the ordinary citizens of the country. Those diamonds are blood diamonds.

What we need to see is justice and transformation for the ordinary people of Zimbabwe – the farmers and the workers – we owe them too much to give up now.

I do hope to wear my collar again before too long, but I it would be best if this is because free and fair elections have taken place in Zimbabwe, legally and peacefully removing from office the President who is responsible for so much violence and destruction.

The international community cannot afford to turn its back on the people of Zimbabwe in their hour of need.


Blogger Corrigan1 said...

Proper order, Cranmer. Keep up this concern for human rights, and we might even see you extending them to Palestinians.

8 August 2012 at 11:11  
Blogger ENGLISHMAN said...

Zimbabweans are not the only people to have thier identity cut up into small pieces.

8 August 2012 at 11:35  
Blogger Youthpasta said...

Oh behave Corrigan, that's like equating apples and flamingos because they are both carbon-based!

8 August 2012 at 11:58  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Of course, Stalin wrote a 'reasonable' Constitution in 1936 as well. It didn't mean anything, you understand. Nothing actually changed in the Soviet Union as a result. But the words looked nice on the paper.


8 August 2012 at 13:37  
Blogger John Knox's lovechild said...

Can it be true that someone is cutting the English into small pieces?

8 August 2012 at 14:02  
Blogger John Thomas said...

Just everyone remember who Mugabe was put in place by, and why. He was the creation of the British Left, who considered anything would be better than Ian Smith (or any white colonialist).

8 August 2012 at 14:14  
Blogger TigerO said...

So where is Peter Hain leading the rampage of daily demonstrations for democracy and Human Rights in Zimbabwe? Sitting nice and comfortably in Wales still remembering his struggle against the evil White man.
In truth they are really racists. They ensured the hated White colonials got what they deserved (in their little warped minds) but don't give a damn about the ordinary Black man who has and will forever bear the brunt of the evil Black dictators who have replaced the White man.

These so-called defenders of Democracy have used the Black man as the ladder to political power and now they are enjoying their time in the sun, they really don't give a damn.

8 August 2012 at 14:28  
Blogger John Magee said...

carl jacobs

Any dictatorship can and most do have a wonderful sounding constitution's on paper. The Soviet Constitution said there was freedom of religion in the USSR. It also said the Soviet government had the right to limit religious "propaganda" (newspapers and publishing houses) and deny believers the right to have schools, charities, youth groups, seminaries, monasteries, convents, etc. The NKVD and later the KGB enforced the USSR state atheistic view of Soviet law vigorously as we know from the tens of millions who died in lenin and Stalin's Gulag labor/death camps.

8 August 2012 at 17:34  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

8 August 2012 at 17:51  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Poor old Rhodesia, you know it was once one of the richest countries in Africa and people didn't starve.

8 August 2012 at 17:55  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Your Grace. When considering lifting sanctions, it might be an idea to wait until Mugabe’s elderly carcass gives up its soul to be claimed by Satan. One cannot envisage a happy ending the people deserve as there is little doubt that one of his thugs will rise victorious. Just like the best of dictators, he allows his underlings to squabble amongst themselves until the very end.

Meanwhile, we wait to see if these somewhat underdeveloped people can overcome their culture of personal self enrichment, tribalism and corruption endemic among sub Saharan peoples. Yes perhaps, if the rest of the world took an interest, but alas the ‘inspiration’ for doing so is lacking…

Diamonds may be forever, but when it comes to ‘regime change’ as the Americans sanctimoniously put it, don’t expect any outside help unless oil is discovered. And plenty of it too to justify the effort…

8 August 2012 at 18:14  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

The international community will not turn its back on Rhodesia, although the same community would have been better letting the proper rulers of Rhodesia to continue to govern Rhodesia. Instead we let a monster take control of a once prosperous African Nation, which is reduced to savagery and hyper inflation.

8 August 2012 at 20:01  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Lavendon old fellow, the international community has turned it’s back. If they hadn’t, the negroes would have called ‘racist’...

8 August 2012 at 20:12  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...


I forgot that simply calling a country by her proper name is racist. And I understand your point- there is no oil in Rhodesia, so Obama and Cameron won't be on it like a pack of bloodhounds a la Bush and Blair !

8 August 2012 at 20:14  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Lord Lavendon,

That is a bit unfair- I thought Mr Bush and Mr Blair went to war in Iraq to liberate their citizens ?

8 August 2012 at 20:21  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

This is what we find Lavendon. Those chaps have the whip hand, don’t you know. It would be rather a good idea, when the nightmare has coughed his last, to reinstate its name as ‘Rhodesia’ and the capital of course ‘Salisbury’. One can’t help but to laugh out loud that the country is presently named after a brick built fortress which Africans claim, is solely the work of themselves, and not of the result of outside contractors from Asia coming in to do it. It would be somewhat embarrassing to point out to these types that when the thing was erected, it would have been far too ‘tech’ for the indigenous who were still eating their enemies at the time, probably...

8 August 2012 at 20:25  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Some what curious that the second highest leader of the Church of England ommits all reference to God and prayer.

8 August 2012 at 20:43  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

8 August 2012 at 20:54  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

Decided to re-phrase my last comment as I have no wish to get involved in a Dodo argument :


Of Course if it had been a Catholic Bishop making these comments .... "

8 August 2012 at 20:57  
Blogger bluedog said...

Your Grace, hasn't Morgan Tsvangirai been touring the major capitals with the news that Mugabe is gaga? Sanctions are a collective punishment that affects are members of a nation, including the despot. And sanctions may be selectively applied by the international community, with notable exceptions. Think China.

Your communicant notes that a Sino-African mutual admiration event recently took place in Peking, wherein the former colonial powers of Africa received ritual condemnation. It was widely understood and affirmed that China is only interested in the fraternal progress and development of African peoples, thoughts of whom were foremost in Chinese minds.

Note also the re-habilitation of Fiji, where China had been doing everything it can to undermine and replace Western influence. That Fiji has been run by a minor dictator for the past five years has been conveniently forgotten by the Commonwealth.

8 August 2012 at 21:43  
Blogger genghis said...

If, as I regularly do, you read the writings of a true daughter of Rhodesia, and then contemplate what could have been, if the Black and White sons and daughters of that unhappy former paradise had not been sold down the river by successive British Governments, of both political shades.

Yes, the Black man did not have the vote, and there were many things out of their reach, but, looking back over thirty-odd years, have they achieved anything apart from losing a paternalistic set of rulers for a dictatorial one?

Not for nothing was Ian Smith liked and respected by all who came in contact with him, a true son of Rhodesia, betrayed by those who were not fit to lick his boots!

8 August 2012 at 22:20  
Blogger David Lonsdale said...

Well said Ghengis. As for Inspector General, there is no oil in Afghanistan and if the allies had wanted Iraqi oil all they had to do was lift sanctions and buy the stuff. The Left seems able to deceive itself with its own propaganda.

We could always go in and shoot Mugabe or would Williams say that that was against his human rights.

8 August 2012 at 22:29  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Paul Twigg said...

"Decided to re-phrase my last comment as I have no wish to get involved in a Dodo argument :"


Of Course if it had been a Catholic Bishop making these comments ...."

I would have said exactly the same thing.

The Church represents Christ and the ways of God. That's why Sentamu has a public profile. He's not a secular politician.

8 August 2012 at 23:32  
Blogger len said...

I wonder who is most affected by sanctions in Zimbabwe?.

I cannot image Mugabe and his supporters going short of anything?.

8 August 2012 at 23:33  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Oh come now Dodo, Sentamu is hardly Rowan Williams when it comes to ommitting God from his public statements.

9 August 2012 at 00:51  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

AIB, true enough but why not mention Him in this article? If Sentamu wants to go public and condemn this dictator, as an Archbishop, he should focus on Christian objections to Mugabe, not exclusively secular and political ones.

9 August 2012 at 01:55  
Blogger Manfarang said...

genghis said...
"If, as I regularly do, you read the writings of a true daughter of Rhodesia, and then contemplate what could have been, if the Black and White sons and daughters of that unhappy former paradise had not been sold down the river by successive British Governments, of both political shades."

What could have been if the Whites had accepted a generous settlement instead of declaring UDI. The Winds of Change and all that.

"Yes, the Black man did not have the vote, and there were many things out of their reach, but, looking back over thirty-odd years, have they achieved anything apart from losing a paternalistic set of rulers for a dictatorial one?"

In fact most of them were on the B electoral roll as were a few poor whites.

"Not for nothing was Ian Smith liked and respected by all who came in contact with him, a true son of Rhodesia, betrayed by those who were not fit to lick his boots!"
Good old Smithy! I don't think so.

9 August 2012 at 05:01  
Blogger TigerO said...


There was nothing generous about the ultimatums given to the British descendants that populated Rhodesia.

Fact is WW2 debt and American attitudes (the major British creditor) towards colonialism forced Britain into abandoning her colonies.

To save face the spin of Democracy and right of every person to vote was invented by architect McMillan. Strange how suddenly after 200 years of colonisation Britain suddenly developed a conscience about denying local inhabitants the right to a political voice in their own land.

I was a teenager in Rhodesia when UDI was declared. UDI and sanctions made the White community, largely of British extraction, use their ingenuity and inner Blitz resolve to overcome what they could no longer import. It was this stimulus that made Rhodesia strong and self sufficient in every way except for Oil and military hardware.

I was privately educated and our school was multiracial. Even Khama of Botswana sent his sons to Rhodesia to be educated. I played cricket against a team from the school that the current President of Botswana played for.

The University of Rhodesia was multiracial and I worked with many Black graduates from there.

Smith's solution, supported by most white Rhodesians was apply franchise economically. i.e. if you paid taxes and met certain minimum educational standards then you were entitled to a vote. As more and more blacks entered the middle classes so would their involvement in the political arena. As tax payers they would then have a say in how their taxes were spent and the direction the country was going. In this way you would have an engaged and accountable electorate. To most of us this was a very sensible solution in a country with such diverse cultural origins.

Please remember that Western cultural norms are not and have never been part of African cultural norms. What you have witnessed in Zimbabwe and other sub-Saharan countries since the '60's are the cultural norms. They are based on the principle that whoever has the most military hardware rules. Any person that disagrees must have more guns to succeed.

Finally China invested in Mugabe in the '60's and he is returning that investment. China is the new coloniser but have no intention of imposing their political systems. In many instances they are followed by default. China wants cheap raw materials to power their industries. Unlike the Europeans they have no interest in the welfare or future of their dependencies. As soon as the assets of these dependencies are stripped out they will pull all funding and support.

9 August 2012 at 09:51  
Blogger TigerO said...

Since this is a quasi religious/political blog I would like to put forward the following for thought and comment.

A great deal of Western domestic and International policy and day to day life is grounded in the parable of the Good Samaritan (too much emphasis in my opinion).

The parable goes that a wealthy traveler is passing through a very dangerous area and comes across a man that has been set upon by thieves (bad) and left beaten and bleeding by the side of the road. The Samaritan ignoring the obvious threats to his own safety tends to the man and then uplifts him to an Inn where he leaves the victim and pays the innkeeper to look after him until he is well again (good). This pretty much describes Rhodesia until 1980.

If we continue the parable; some years later the Samaritan is traveling the same road and decides to stop at the Inn to thank the Innkeeper for his assistance. When he enters he finds that the owner is now the man he rescued on the road. He inquires after the owner to be informed that the owner is no longer with us. Locals relate that as soon as the injured man was well he attacked the innkeeper and stole his property. Zimbabwe 2012.

What do we make of this as Christians? How do we reconcile this with our faith and politics and how do we deal with this in this context?

9 August 2012 at 10:42  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...


What a twisted and distorted adaptation of the Parable of the Good Samaritan. And even if it ended so, the assistence given was unconditional based on love and self-giving.

And this is hardly an accurate statement:

"A great deal of Western domestic and International policy and day to day life is grounded in the parable of the Good Samaritan (too much emphasis in my opinion)."

One of the key messages of the unadulterated Parable of Jesus is that those who passed by the injured man left him bleeding and dying due either to religious differences or indifference to his suffering. The Samaritan helped out of an altruistic love for his neigbour, expanded by Jesus to include all of humanity.

You really think Western foreign policy is driven by a sincere regard for others rather than self-interest of nation states? That the West colonised Africa, the Americas, Australia and Asia to assist the peoples of these continents?

9 August 2012 at 11:08  
Blogger TigerO said...

Dodo clearly African history is not one of your strengths.

Unlike the colonisation of America and Australasia the colonisation of Southern and Central Africa had very strong Christian influence. North American and Australasian settlements started as penal and then morphed into commercial ventures. In both cases local populations were regarded as savages and at worst were systematically slaughtered.

Two very prominent figures within the colonisation of Southern and Central Africa were Robert Moffat and his son-in-law, David Livingstone. Both men were representatives of the London Missionary Society. They both promoted Christianity and devoted a large amount of time to developing the written languages of local tribes.

Please note that it was Cecil Rhodes' own personal resources that established Rhodesia. No financial provision was made by the British Govt. The initial settlement stopped the systematic genocide of the Shona people by the Matabele. This genocide was repaid by Mugabe in the 1980's when he sent the Korean trained 5th Brigade to slaughter Matabele tribesmen.

During the period 1891 - 1980 a small white population developed schools, healthcare and infrastructure for the black population. Black students emerging from this were regarded as the best in Africa. This financed through taxation. In what way can this be considered not in line with the Samaritan parable. Many of the schools and clinics were provided for workers on the farms by the farmers at their own expense.

Without the desire and will to develop the natural resources of the region the Shona people would not exist today.

The level of Healthcare provided reduced infant mortality to almost Western standards. So much so that by 1980 the population was doubling every 10 years.

9 August 2012 at 13:37  
Blogger Manfarang said...

There were a lot of Christian missionaries sent to China along with a lot of opium.
Actually the Chinese reached East Africa before the Europeans.

9 August 2012 at 16:35  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

David Lonsdale. We can surmise that if Mugabe had declared war on the United States and allowed his country to become a jihadist training ground, shot he would have been…

I think we can also safely assume that if the twin towers were still in New York, then those Satan lovers in Afghanistan would be left alone in peace to continue their savage existence unhindered…

To all those reading this site who believe in ‘one man one vote’, then you’ve fallen for socialist claptrap rot. Democracy can only work if the enfranchised are informed types, ie educated to some standard and of a sufficient IQ to know what choices there are for them. If they are not, then you put them in great danger from forces that will cajole and threaten them for that valuable vote.

Democracy is only of use if it provides stable government. If it fails to do that, as would have been the case in Rhodesia in 1965, then it is not suitable. Stable government is everything. Democracy for democracy sake is not.

9 August 2012 at 17:30  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Tiger. You have it Sir !

The black African is the very last person you would entrust the running of an African country to. Although of course, this is a generalisation, as there are exceptions to the rule, but as a rule of thumb, it is correct. Living a stone age existence until a mere 300 years ago, and still maintaining that lifestyle now to some degree, they have yet to develop a high enough average IQ to progress beyond being ruled by others on their behalf, literally for their own good.

9 August 2012 at 17:31  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Oh please spare me this Hollywood version of the brave, intrepid missionaries! I don't doubt they did a great deal of good. However, close on their tails was the profit motive and the military.

And, as I said, Western foreign policy today is most certainly not driven by a sincere regard for others.

Africa's development has suffered from tribalism and other cultural factors, not least their pagan bbeliefs. However, the super powers have exploited these factors in their own interests and are still doing so today.

Yes if you say so, but there would still have to be a financial return in it, don't you think?

9 August 2012 at 19:51  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Good evening my dear cock bird.

The best that could happen to erstwhile Rhodesia is if Marks & Spencers ran it, don’t you think ?

9 August 2012 at 20:12  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

What about the Vatican, Inspector? A few Jesuits selecting and advising the rulers and there'll be progress in no time at all, what.

It was the Church that brought learning and education to Europe. Not the protestant types with all their ill-discipline and liberalism. Good, strong, structured teaching in Christian values backed by education, firm discipline and clear advice to the secular powers.

(Talking of Jesuits, where is Atlas Shrugged these days? Perhaps he's been kidnapped by aliens for revealing too much.)

10 August 2012 at 00:06  
Blogger len said...

And the inquisition.... Dodo don`t forget them Dodo.

They certainly taught the World what Catholicism was all about....control, suppression and the elimination of anything regarding' Biblical Christianity'.

Something to be really proud of ...what!.

10 August 2012 at 00:39  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Now, now, len. I thought you'd turned over a new leaf? No more throwing of denominational stones.

Do you deny the Church civilised the western world? That it kept the torch alight during the 'dark ages'.

God alone knows where the world would be now without a militant Church in Europe when Islam threatened. And the unity of Christian nations rested on the theological and ecclesiastical cohesion of the Church. This came from Rome.

The protestant reformation was preceded by unacceptable Papal abuse. The Church is made up of sinful men, including sinful Popes and clergy.

You know my views. I still maintain those who protested and broke away were wrong to do so.

10 August 2012 at 01:07  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Sinful clergy for sure.
Catholic countries are rather backward so I don't think Africa becoming Catholic would help that much.

10 August 2012 at 02:36  
Blogger TigerO said...


Without commercial interests and development you would still be running around in skins, grunting. I am not sure that aren't in reality. Since those seem to be your values I look forward to advice of when you intend to return to this pure lifestyle.

Returning to Central Africa. This was an odd period because it was probably a forerunner to our sanctimonious liberal present.

The missionary involvement in the development and settlement of Southern and Central Africa was such that it was this group that applied a moral monitor of what was done. Sort of modern day World Council of Churches/Amnesty International.

The result in the end was quite surprising but not unexpected. Nearly every Black Nationalist zealot produced in this region was created by a Missionary. Mugabe, Mandela, Sisulu, Nkomo, N Sithole etc. As has become common, and is the case today in the form of wonderful Rowan Williams, they preach the evil of capitalism and the evil capitalists of the past and slavery and .............. This is all part of a dynamic so that they maintain power and influence over Society. The propaganda is directed at the so called down trodden masses (really those too lazy to get a proper job and depend on those that do).

To finish my diatribe. Mugabe and co knew exactly what the agenda was and is. They were incited and empowered by their missionary mentors but also knew that the same mentors were very dangerous in their future programs. During the war years they brutally murdered dozens of the same missionaries that had worked often their whole lives amongst the blacks.

One of my life long memories was of an American Baptist Mission Hospital at Sanyati. I worked in a State Hospital and from time to time had contact with them. They continually told us how evil our regime was. They refused to even supply water to security force personnel at a camp adjacent to them. Then one day a group of Zipra gooks walked into the hospital and gunned down half of them in the wards. They were talking to us in a hurry then. Please would we send helicopters to evacuate the wounded. Please send troops to evacuate them.

Africa has not put one foot out of the stone age.

10 August 2012 at 09:42  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

Tiger O 10:42
I liked your adaption of the parable but I think it needs an extra dash of reality.
When the Samaritan returns to the inn, the current owner who stole it
from his carer arrives unexpectedly and on seeing the Samaritan attacks and kills him.
With his last dying gasps the Samaritan asks "Why have you done this?"
The killer replies
"You Christians are suckers,one good deed inevitably leads to a bad one.Doormats are by definition to be walked on!"

10 August 2012 at 10:04  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

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10 August 2012 at 12:18  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10 August 2012 at 12:19  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

you are normally consistent, but just to discuss your post at 19.51. You must know about the Spanish Catholic Empire sending missionaries and colonists (and small pox) to the New World to convert the natives with such determination, which has resulted in the fact that you can still claim Catholicism is the largest part of the Christian faith, rather than it being the largest Christian sect in Europe?.

I wonder what would have happened if the Church of England had been as forceful in converting Africa and India to Anglicanism, if the position would be that Anglicans would strut around saying we are the only Church because we have most followers?

The English Church bigger than the Church of Rome... now that is a thought to ponder. Perhaps Canterbury might have even become its own sovereign state?

10 August 2012 at 12:21  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Mr Twigg

Are you claiming to be an Anglican now?

The Catholic Church is not a "sect" or a denomination! It is the Church of Christ, his Mystical Body, no matter how large or small oe whether it has the Vatican State or not.

10 August 2012 at 12:53  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10 August 2012 at 13:03  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

Mr Dodo,

Moi, an Anglican?

Just pointing out a few things that is all. From your previous post. I can't see how you can decry missionary work of the English in Africa, when the Church of Rome is probably the greatest missionary Church ever known as my example of the Spanish Empire suggests.

As for the other bit- blah, blah, blah! You say that. It does not automatically mean that it is so now does it?

10 August 2012 at 13:06  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Mr Twigg

I wasn't necessarily "decrying missionary work" just the notion that this was the only reason the British went to Africa. However, I do believe the protestant missionaries created problems and especially the less doctrinally sound branches.

I am more familiar with the history of China and believe it may well have been a Catholic country today but for protestant missionaries such as Robert Morrison who 'ordained' Liang Fa and the quasi-Christianity of Hong Xiuquan. The Catholic Church, with the Jesuits at the helm, were much more culturally aware and were proceeding slowly and carefully.

10 August 2012 at 14:41  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10 August 2012 at 14:57  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...


You are quite right, in that Empires also plunder, for example the Catholic Spanish Empire. Although religion played its part in the justification of the formation of such an Empire (from wiki) :

"The Spanish Requirement of 1513 ("El Requerimiento") was a declaration by the Spanish monarchy of its divinely ordained right to take possession of the territories of the New World and to subjugate, exploit and, when necessary, to fight the native inhabitants. The Requirement was read in Spanish to Native Americans to inform them of Spain’s rights to conquest. Those who subsequently resisted conquest were considered to harbor evil intentions. The Spaniards thus considered those who resisted as defying God’s plan, and so used Catholic theology to justify their conquest.

Catholic theology held that spiritual salvation took precedence over temporal and civil concerns. The conversion of pagan natives to Christianity was the rationale for and legitimized Spain’s conquests. The Pope, being the recipient of divine authority and having the obligation to propagate the faith, empowered Spain to conquer the New World and convert its peoples .

Thus “informed” by the Spanish, the Indians had to accept the supremacy of the Catholic Church and the Spanish Crown. The state was authorized to enforce submission, by war where necessary."

A good example of Catholicism moving slowly and carefully.

10 August 2012 at 15:00  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

Not quite sure why things always seem to appear twice! Must be too trigger happy.

10 August 2012 at 15:01  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10 August 2012 at 15:14  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This is turning into a game of my missionary position is better than yours.

It is true that Christianity full stop is a evangelistic religion, i.e. at its core is converting people, and Catholicism is best at converting people. So that answers the "why".

"How" is a good starting point for Christians. Was the Spanish conquest and conversion, the "right" way? Was the British way any better? Or Dodo's example of the Chinese (who have their own various eastern religions). Do any of these examples reflect the Jewish Rabbi who founded your religion.

A Secondary or a subsidiary question, would be :Do you as Christians think if the Aztecs were still around ripping people's hearts out, in the name of their religion, that would be acceptable? What would happen if we were to have Aztec sacrifices in the UK, via immigrants from Mexico, where would that fit into the secular state and religious equality ?

10 August 2012 at 15:21  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Dodo,

As an aside, if you are familiar with Chinese history, did you ever watch the film 55 days in Peking (with Charlton Heston and David Niven) about the Boxers? Didn't they dislike all missionary work and lay siege to the western legations?

10 August 2012 at 15:41  
Blogger len said...

Dodo ,(10 August 2012 01:07)

The Catholic 'religious system' takes its authority from Christ and His teachings but has then added its own agenda making its own' religious system'.If you 'buy into that'system well that`s fine but don`t expect me to accept the Catholic teachings without checking them out Biblically.
I can also agree that there is a lot wrong with the Protestant Churches but the split from the Catholic Church was by former Catholic Priests who have done exactly as I have done(Looked at Catholic theology and seen that something is radically wrong with it )

It is a matter of truth, I cannot stand by and see error promoted as 'truth'.If I am at fault(which does occur.......sometimes)then I would rather someone pointed that out than to continue in error.

10 August 2012 at 19:26  
Blogger John Chibadura said...

Sentamu, stop talking on our behalf. We Zimbabweans never asked you to cut up your dog collar & we are not even interested in what you think about our country because you are neither Zimbabwean or a Zimbabwean representative.

Do you think the sanctions affect Mugabe? Do you honestly believe that nonsense that sanctions affect Mugabe? How?

Stop encouraging suffering of innocent Zimbabweans who have lost countless jobs due to company closures. Some companies & people who have nothing to do with Politics let alone Mugabe have had their monies confiscated by the US government under the Zedera law which is basically a law to sabotage the Zimbabwean economy.

You have no idea of what is going on in Zimbabwe & you are busy barking from Britain because you dont care how what you say affects the ordinary person in Zimbabwe.

You are doing more harm than good especially when the other two parties who share power with ZanuPF have also called for the sanctions to be removed not because they are stupid but because they have seen how the sanctions are affecting the ordinary Zimbabweans than the people you lie to target them at.

Do not hide behind the church to poke your nose into a country's political affairs. You are neither a politician or qualified to be making political statements that no Zimbabwean has asked you to embark on.

Two simple words. SHUT UP!

10 August 2012 at 21:25  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Mr Twigg
In 1513 there was a united Christian Church in the West and the Church's history is therefore you history as a Christian.

Different times and different approaches. The Spaniards, like others before and after, used Christian theology to justify their actions.

Do you question the primacy of spiritual salvation over temporal and civil concerns? And the Pope heads the Church that then had and has still an obligation to propagate the faith. Afterall, it was the mandate given by Christ to the Apostles. However, I doubt He intended it to be a bloody imposition driven by the countries of Europe's drive for Empire.

And the Jesuits were formed after the initial conquest of the New World.

I am familiar with the background to the Boxer Rebellion. A major part of it was a reaction to the colonial powers of Russia, America, England, Japan, France, Germany, Spain, Austria-Hungary, Belgium, and Holland and to evangelising Christianity. It was a brutal anti-foreign and anti-Christian war.

Have a read about the The Taiping Rebellion 1850 to 1864, It was against the Quing Dynasty and led by heterodox Christian convert Hong Xiuquan who had some strange beliefs and maintained after visions he was the younger brother of Jesus Christ. This was possibly triggered by a pamphlet from Liang Fa, the first Chinese Protestant minister and evangelist who had been ordained by one Robert Morrison, the first Protestant missionary to China, from the London Missionary Society.

No fewer that 20 million people died in the civil war that followed. Any wonder the Chinese were and still are suspicious of foreign influence and, in particular, religion?

With regard to evangelising you ask:

""How" is a good starting point for Christians. Was the Spanish conquest and conversion, the "right" way? Was the British way any better? Or Dodo's example of the Chinese (who have their own various eastern religions). Do any of these examples reflect the Jewish Rabbi who founded your religion.

The Spanish Conquest was a colonial conquest that was fronted by Christianity. In my opinion, it is never right to convert and subjugate people people through sheer power, fear and the threat of death. That said, your own faith was spread by conquest believed to have been mandated by God, was it not?

As for the protestant way, I'd say the lack of leadership, organisation and theological integrity was unsuccessful and caused as many deaths as the Catholic way.

Would Jesus, God incarnate, approve? God knows! One has to judge the actions of the leaders of the past by the circumstances they faced and the standards and mind-sets of the time.

And, as you know, Jesus was not accepted as a Rabbi by the religious leaders of His time or ultimately by the people of Jerusalem. He was the Son of God.

Are you being serious about the Aztecs?!!!

11 August 2012 at 00:05  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Re: Rhodesia and Oil.

The US is not the policeman of the world. The US military does not exist to right the wrongs created by other nation-states. It exists to enforce the national interest of the United States. Unless the national interest of the US is involved, then the US has no responsibility to intervene no matter how terrible the wrong. We tried that 'selfless intervention' idea once before - in Vietnam. In the end, all we did was send people to war, and then abandon them in the field. Not again.


11 August 2012 at 03:46  
Blogger TigerO said...

Dear John Chibadura;

Strange that when total sanctions (yes everything except education and medicine) were applied to Rhodesia the country experienced the greatest growth in its economic in history. It had the strongest currency in Africa and the best balance of payments in Africa, before it was handed over to the morons under Mugabe.

The truth is that you cannot lift yourselves above your tribal and ethnic affiliations for the greater good of all. Your obsession with the perception that you were wronged in the past stops you planning for the future. Your perception that the West has to compensate you ad infinitum for their perceived wrongs makes you weak and powerless. Your failure to recognise that success is only achievable by hard work and sacrifice of personal ambition for the greater good.

Stop whining about all the perceived wrongs and injustice. Recognise that you were given a dynamic thriving ecomomy and superb functional infrastructure and screwed it up. Recognise that what is wrong are the thieving, criminal, murdering thugs that control you and have stolen your future. They are your elected leaders. Take ownership of your own mistakes and fix it. In case you haven't seen the signals, the West is getting tired of the whinging, excuses and rank criminal behaviour. The time is fast approaching where you either fix it or you will die because no one is coming to fix it for you.

11 August 2012 at 09:14  
Blogger Manfarang said...

"no one is coming to fix it for you."
Maybe China will.

12 August 2012 at 03:27  
Blogger TigerO said...

Manfarang you clearly didn't watch the program on Channel 4 which investigated China's help to Angola, Zambia and Tanzania.

The Chinese openly despise the African. When they do anything they do it with their own workers. The Chinese that migrate employ their own families and any local Africans they do employ are badly paid and often assaulted for poor work performance.

Any Chinese involvement will only benefit China. Ask the Zambians whose copper mines are now run by the Chinese. Once owned and run by Anglo-American employing local miners they were Nationalised by Kaunda and the sector collapsed. Zambia and Zambians exist on handouts from the West.

12 August 2012 at 09:39  
Blogger Manfarang said...

It's widely believed that Chinese companies refuse to hire Africans and bring in all their own workers. The real story is more complicated. I've not yet seen a case of a Chinese company in Africa hiring no local workers at all, but the percentage of Chinese and Africans varies widely. Many factors affect this: local labour laws, the work permit regime, enforcement of work permits, the availability of skilled labour and its cost. In Angola, for example, emerging from decades of civil war, skilled and literate workers are scarce and expensive. Here, Chinese firms find it pays to import workers from China.
Rio Tinto's record in Africa is no better than the Chinese.

12 August 2012 at 11:15  

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