Wednesday, October 24, 2012

The future of the Anglican Church in Zimbabwe

Zimbabwe's Supreme Court is hearing this week the matter of the wrangle over Anglican Church property in Zimbabwe. The whole week has been set aside for the hearing, and our brothers and sisters in Zimbabwe have set aside this whole week for prayer and fasting. His Grace exhorts his readers and communicants to join them in prayer, for the outcome of this hearing will determine the entire future of the Anglican Church in Zimbabwe.

There has been continued harassment of Anglican Church members in the Anglican Diocese of Masvingo since His Grace last reported on these matters. They have been barred from some of their institutions, in particular, Daramombe Mission, and they continue to be evicted from their church buildings in Chivhu rural. The police have ordered that all church buildings in Chivhu belong to Norlbert Kunonga and the legitimate custodians of these properties, the Anglican Diocese of Masvingo in the Church of the Province of Central Africa have been barred from using these buildings.

The Anglican Church is clear about the ecclesiastical boundaries of the five Dioceses in Zimbabwe. These were set by the Province at a properly constituted Provincial Synod on 1st September 2001. Ironically, Kunonga was part of this Provincial Synod and was signatory to the formation of the Diocese of Masvingo and its boundaries.

All law court judgments are clear that the dispute over church properties is in the Diocese of Harare which ceased to have jurisdiction over Chivhu on 1st September 2001, the date on which the Anglican Diocese of Masvingo ecclesiastically formed. The documents, including the map showing othe Diocesan boundaries, are clear in this regard. What Kunonga is using to hoodwink the police are title deeds which he illegally refused to surrender to the Diocese of Masvingo at its formation. This was a premeditated move to permit him to retain control over Church property.

It is disturbing that the police have taken sides. They lead the summary evictions of Church members from their buildings. Since when have the police in the Republic of Zimbabwe been judges and legal experts in matters to do with the Anglican Church? Why are they openly supporting the abuse perpetrated by Nolbert Kunonga? Who is giving them orders to harass members of the Anglican Church and for what reason?

An appeal has been made directly to His Excellency President Robert Mugabe, and also to the members of the Government of National Unity, the Co-Ministers of Home Affairs and the Police Commissioner General to intervene in this matter where innocent and peaceable worshippers are being driven out of their church buildings for no legitimate reason.

Whatever happened to freedom of Worship in Zimbabwe?


Blogger Youthpasta said...

Given all the history of Kunonga being backed by Mugabe, I don't expect to see anything good come from the appeal. I wouldn't surprise me if Kunonga was influenced to go in the direction we have seen over the past few years by Mugabe, given how both have acted in similarly outrageous fashion to silence opponents of their plans for domination.

They should be thankful that there is no oil under Zimbabwe, otherwise these consistent abuses of human rights would have been dealt with years ago!

24 October 2012 at 10:17  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

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24 October 2012 at 10:19  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Your Grace,

There was a time when [Southern] Rhodesia (the proper name of this country) was one of the most successful countries in Africa, where there was a parliamentary system, education, food, bread and religious tolerance for all. Now look at what has happened since 1980- a relatively rich and prosperous country has been turned into a racist, dictatorial basket case, hyper inflation economy and mass starvation with regular beatings of political prisoners.

Yet because it isn't South Africa/Israel/white Africans/British Empire (or any other pet hate of the loony left) doing this, no-one gives a damn on how people are treated in this former bread basket of Southern Africa- the so called 'liberal left' at the bbc and guardian deems it as it is 'colonialist' to dare to condemn a brutal dictator, when one sees it in plain sight (as it is all of course, in that warped mindset, the fault of the imperialist British).

Reading of stories like this, makes me yearn for a restoration of the British Empire and the associated civilisation this gave the world, the empire upon which the sun never set!

24 October 2012 at 10:28  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Lord Lavendon said...

Why they even blame us for the hatred between the Muslims and the Hindi/Sikh's over India and partition.
How on earth we made them hate each other is a complete mystery to old Ernst and they hate us soo very much they cannot appear to stop the need to visit that vile mother and try to habituate within her land despite the horrible mother being the cause of their woes. A sort of never ending punishment for old Mater? They cannot appear to shake themselves from the hated nipple. STRANGE!!


"Given all the history of Kunonga being backed by Mugabe, I don't expect to see anything good come from the appeal." Wasn't Kunonga the bond villain, Mr Big? ;-).

Ooops, me and me eyesight..Kananga!
Perhaps Mr Bond's next mission should be to stirike into the heart of the terrorist land and kick The Living Daylights' out of them on behalf of 'Her Majesty's Secret Service' but only with 'A View to a Kill' as you can 'Never Say Never Again'. ..



This is 'For Your Eyes Only', old sport.

24 October 2012 at 11:55  
Blogger TigerO said...

There is nothing new in this case.

Mugabe et al stole farms from the legal owners on the basis of race. The International community merely tutted in the background and did nothing. Appeal was made to the SADC Tribunal to which Zimbabwe is signatory. The Tribunal ruled that the Zimbabwe Govt is in violation of the SADC treaty and International law and issued instruction that the properties be returned to the legal owners.

The SADC itself turned on the Tribunal because of this ruling and suspended the Tribunal. The Tribunal has now been abolished.

So we have South Africa, Zimbabwe, Namibia, Zambia, Botswana, Lesotho, Swaziland and ? Mozambique complicit in the violation of their own Treaty and International Law and racist actions. Yet those same people were put into power through International pressure based on the same premise of blatant racism.

The South African High Court recently ruled that Zimbabwe is in violation of the SADC agreement and International law and seized and is auctioning diplomatic properties in South Africa to offset the legal expenses and compensation due to South Africans holding legal title to land in Zimbabwe. The South African government has consistently opposed these applications to the High Court.

It is indeed strange that the International community including the UK can hold White controlled Governments to a different standard of justice to those of Black governments.

The UK through the UN was quick to launch International sanctions against both Rhodesia and South Africa for racism but is loath to apply the same standards to Black governments.

24 October 2012 at 13:11  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Politics and competing religious denominations using political influence to murder, repress, grab land, money and assets.

Has a certain familiar, if rather distant, ring to it, now doesn't it?

There is, of course, a bigger question as the search for a successor to the Archbishop of Canterbury drags on and on.

Does the Anglican Communion have a future .... period.

24 October 2012 at 14:25  
Blogger John Magee said...

So now Mugabe's greedy thugs are finally coming after Anglican Church property in Zimbabwe? Now that's an earth shaking surprise. Where is the most famous and outspoken defender of the under dog in the world Anglican Archbishop Desmond Tutu? After all, Zimbabwe is next door to South Africa. Is Archbishop Tutu giving in Cuba giving ministration of the sick to his Communist pal Castro who just had a stroke and too busy to care about fellow black Anglicans in Africa? Where is the Vatican? Mugabe is labeled a "practicing Catholic" and he is a very greedy one too. Next he will be after Catholic Church property in Zibabwe and Rome will finally perk up its ears to the problem of this evil man. It's only a few months long the Vatican allowed Mugabe to attend the beautification of Pope JP II.

Lord Lavendon

The land grab of white farmland in Zimbabwe by Mugabe over the past two decades by his allies has resulted in a Soviet style forced famine tragedy in the that former breadbasket of Africa and surrounding countries. It is literally a country biting the hand that feeds it. Mugabe's land reforms (forced famine) was labeled "land reform as a black empowerment corrective to injustices of colonialism". Now the UN and other organizations has to feed the people of this region.

What kind of mentality destroys the most productive people in it's society, especially its farmers?
I read that Mugabe and his pals own at least 40% of the land his governemnt confiscated from hard working productive white farmers. The rest of the rich Zimbabwe farmland has been mismanaged and lies fallow because the people who now own it have no idea how to properly farm the land.

I feel very sorry for those farmers in Zimbabwe and now in South Africa who had or are having their beautiful farms confiscated by their incompetent governments in the name of "correcting the injustices of colonialism". It seems the churches only care about this sort of thing when it's their property threatened.

24 October 2012 at 15:51  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Our own system is broken beyond rapair never mind Zimbabwe

Praying over the matter I would ask that both systems be washed down the shitter please Lord. Amen

24 October 2012 at 16:46  
Blogger non mouse said...

Yes, Your Grace, and thanks also to Lord L. and Mr. B. on this one.

Of course, churches and the Empire, being run by mankind, could never be perfect. So long as some church members have been less hypocritical than others, however, Christianity (including the CoE) has provided a Beacon of Righteousness to help navigate through the perils of the material world.

Rhodes was, most likely, one of the "famous men" I referred to yesterday; yet he was Christian born and bred, and the state he built benefitted others besides himself. To whatever extent Rhodesia was kicking and screaming when he brought it into the larger and more sophisticated world, the area under his influence developed comparatively well. It inherited quite a lot that could benefit it-- both materially and spiritually.

But Mr. Roosevelt wanted an end to the Empire, and post-modern post-colonialists will continue to mine for horror stories that "prove" him right. If some benefit from Rhodes Scholarships at Oxford, that's fine: for them, Diamonds are Forever.

Well, that is unless they ever learn why Radix malorum est cupiditas: "which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith,and pierced themselves through with many sorrows" (1 Timothy 6:10 KJV).

We always knew that most successors to the Empire would treat their own people worse than even industrialists had, though. The new powers had not been bred by the Church for nigh 2,000 years, so the Spirit and St. Paul do not reach so far with: "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own master worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed" (1 Tim. 6:1). They have refused to see "But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour" (2 Tim. 2:20).

May the Lord help Zimbabweans and the CoE to turn once more to His Light.

24 October 2012 at 17:19  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Well, we can’t send a gunboat there to sort the natives out anymore and besides the country is land locked. But we could send out John Sentamu. Did you know his third forename is Mugabi ? One joshes you not. His destiny perhaps ? One wonders how he would feel going back to live in Africa. Probably loathe the idea, and become homesick for blighty, what !

Anyway, negro governments are not governments at all. They are the traditional means of control which is tens of thousands of years old, to whit, dictatorship by the tribal chief., enforced by his trusted warriors. They may wear western suits, but don’t be fooled. You see, democracy is rather a mill-stone round their neck, or a burning tyre if you prefer. Either way, it sits uncomfortable with them and when no one’s looking they throw it off.

The black man has learnt nothing, nothing at all from the benefit of European colonisation (cf. the Americas). Hardly surprising then that the International Community stays well clear of sub Saharan Africa now the white man has been emasculated there. It’s one thing to get involved to fix something that’s broken, but when everything is broken ? And besides, if you criticise them too harshly, you are a damned racist. Hard to believe, but the Inspector has had a taste of that, on this esteemed blog too !

So, how to establish religious freedom, and peace and prosperity come to that. In a nutshell, abandon the existing artificial country layout, and revert to the old tribal boundaries. The tribe is everything. Work with the African, do things his way.

pip pip !

24 October 2012 at 18:36  
Blogger non mouse said...

Funny you should say that, OIG. Some of mine also experienced Rhodesia. After a sojourn there, they returned to England in the early '50s ... because they were Homesick, and however dismal dear England's future might be. Unfortunately, they took quite a loss when their farmlands were later negotiated into tribal ownership.

You're right. The Church (and its concomitant values and education) weren't all that failed to transplant successfully.

24 October 2012 at 19:04  
Blogger Youthpasta said...

Inspector, I'm surprised you can see the criticism of you racist rankings from under the pointy hat!

You might as well have declared the "The negro is sub-human" given the amount of racial disdain that dripped from every syllable!!!

24 October 2012 at 21:49  
Blogger John Magee said...

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24 October 2012 at 22:00  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Youthpasta, the utmost shame possible upon you. A fellow explains to you the African condition and all you can do is to call him a racist ! As a matter of fact, the Inspector has never accused the negro of being sub human. More proto human. He is, no less, the origin of us all...

24 October 2012 at 22:26  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

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25 October 2012 at 00:03  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


the Inspector has never accused the negro of being sub human. More proto human.

I laughed out loud when I read this. To think that 'proto-human' is somehow profoundly different from 'sub-human' is tragically funny. It's like saying "No, he isn't sub-human. He's more like a neanderthal - a little earlier on the evolutionary chain."

Different words. Same concept.


25 October 2012 at 00:04  
Blogger John Magee said...

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25 October 2012 at 01:18  
Blogger Manfarang said...

You have never heard of a city called Luanda it seems.

25 October 2012 at 05:56  
Blogger John Magee said...

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25 October 2012 at 17:14  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

I say Carl, rather than post your usual indignant derision, you’ve sent a reasoned reply, almost. Good show, that expert in all matters racial !

Proto Homo Sapiens Sapiens is rather a good term for those that scrape a stone age living from the African dirt, watched by the suit wearing chief from his castle, full of new technology like flushing toilets, while high above them, fly members of the more successful races. Could have used ‘advanced’ then, but that would only have you hopping round the homestead, fists waving.

Not sure why you are dragging Homo sapiens neanderthalensis into the frame. You have your reasons no doubt. Perhaps you are using it as an example of another group who ultimately failed. Overtaken by events they were, and probably wiped out by us, though scientists never seem to advocate that theory. Just that they didn’t make it in the end, for whatever.

25 October 2012 at 18:24  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Manfarang. From Wiki…

By the time of Angolan independence in 1975, Luanda was a modern city. The majority of its population was African, but it was dominated by a strong minority of white Portuguese origin. After the Carnation Revolution in Lisbon on April 25, 1974, with the advent of independence and the start of the Angolan Civil War (1975–2002), most of the white Portuguese Luandans left as refugees,[10] principally for Portugal,
There was an immediate crisis, because the local African population lacked the skills and knowledge needed to run the city and maintain its well-developed infrastructure.
slums called musseques - which had existed for decades - began to grow out of proportion and stretched for miles beyond Luanda's former city limits, as a result of the decades-long civil war, and because of the rise of deep social inequalities due to large-scale migration of civil war refugees from other Angolan regions.
Around one-third of Angolans live in Luanda, 53% of whom live in poverty. Living conditions in Luanda are poor for most of the people, with essential services such as safe drinking water and electricity still in short supply,

The city is currently undergoing a major reconstruction, with many large developments taking place that will alter the cityscape significantly.

One rather believes your point was the final part, and naturally ignoring the sob story that was 26-04-1974 until now…

25 October 2012 at 18:26  
Blogger John Magee said...

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25 October 2012 at 18:51  
Blogger John Magee said...

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25 October 2012 at 18:51  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

John, one has never been to the USA and has no interest to do so other than to maybe visit New England. However one has a keen interest in US films up to 1970, when standards in them collapsed. So, one regularly sees your country in it’s golden age. When the WASP was firmly in charge and everyone thrived and was content with their lot.

25 October 2012 at 19:20  
Blogger John Magee said...

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25 October 2012 at 20:22  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

John. She was inordinately proud of her dreary Scottish Calvinist Presbyterianism

mouse, old thing. A relative per chance ?

25 October 2012 at 20:25  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

John. Recognisable films there ! Though not sure about ‘since you were gone’. can’t recall viewing that one.

One lives not far from the Regimental museum of the ‘Gloucesters’. During the war of independence, they were the 28th regiment of foot, and ‘over there’ in the thick of it.

Did you know that in 1776, the population in our colony there was 2 mil. The population of England the same year was only 8 mil. What a marvellous achievement this country managed in seeding the future USA so thoroughly so early. It’s in the blood you know !

Toodle pip, old man...

25 October 2012 at 20:33  
Blogger John Magee said...

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25 October 2012 at 22:31  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

John. One must not forget the 61st Regiment of foot. The South Gloucesters. This would encompass the men of Bristol. A fine city and port, built on the proceeds of slavery and tobacco. (Note to the progressive liberal bleeding hearts reading this. Slavery happened. Get over it. And no damn apology for the past, that’s how it was then. What do you want us to do now, walk around with our heads bowed for the rest of our lives ? Get real, for God’s sake). Indeed, so busy was the port of Bristol that the term “Bristol Fashion” referred to ships arriving that were unable to dock parallel to the key, and had to tie in at 90 degrees. Interestingly, we can only guess as that being the meaning. The term, even when written down, was never fully explained.

25 October 2012 at 23:30  
Blogger John Magee said...


I wonder where the South Gloucesters regiments served in Colonial America before the Revolution. I asume they still exist.

Most of the ancestors of the people in my county here in SW Pennsylvania came here during the mid 1700's from Vermont in New England and before that in the 1600's from the West Country of England which I presume would be your neck of the woods.

It's too bad the black Africans chieftains who raided the hinterlands of West Africa and hunted down their own people and took them prisoners beating them on forced marches to coastal cities in West Africa to be sold to European slave traders is seldom talked about in great detail in most modern versions of European slave trading. Only those who bought the slaves in Africa and later sold them in North and South American and those who bought them from the slave trader's ships using those poor souls as free labor are condemned.

Don't forget that it was the Quakers in 17th century England (also here in Pennsylvania)and later in the 18th century other English Protestants
along with Protestant's in 18th & 19th century New England, it what became the USA, who are the people who gave us the first anti slavery movements.

Is there anyone today doesn't know the beautiful hymn written by the Englishman and former slave trader William Wilberforce, "Amazing Grace", with his poignant lyrics telling us for all time the deep sorrow he felt for what he did.

I've never been to Bristol but I have see photos of the beautful late Medieval church in that city, St. Mary Redcliffe. Are you familiar with this church? Inside with it's wonderful architecture and fittings is a memorial to the father of founder of my state(then colony) Pennsylvania founded in 1682 by the Quaker William Penn. Sir William Penn.

Neither your ancestors nor mine ever owned slaves. No bleeding heart liberal is going to try and lay the collective guilt trip on us for what happened in the past. A few of mine fought in the Union Army during our Civil War that eventually freed them in the South.

Black Africans who lived under British rule in Africa should thank God.

If that offends anyone . Good!

26 October 2012 at 04:45  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

John. Much madness are happening to our armed forces. We seem to be heading for a part time army, or ‘minutemen’. Ready to drop their hoe and pick up a musket in 60 seconds. Where is the damn sense in that.

A couple of years ago, there was an anniversary in the anti slavery calendar, where we were all invited to crawl across broken glass to kiss the black legs of the victims descendants. No mention, however, of the victorious African chiefs who sold on their captives from their numerous African wars to be shipped abroad and put to work *

St Mary Redcliffe is a stunning church. One has read it stood in the way of a railway from the port of Bristol to Temple Meads, Brunel’s magnificent construction. The navvies built a tunnel UNDER the graveyard behind the church. The railway closed in 1964, but the tunnel is extant although entrances bricked up. Perhaps in use as a battery or what it is you call places where bats nest.

* Interesting concept. We should re-introduce that idea today. One is sure that troubled community would benefit....

26 October 2012 at 13:04  
Blogger John Magee said...


The destruction of the UK and the USA military by political correctness and social engineering is national suicide.

One reason for this is, I believe, is few of our leaders have ever atcually served in the military. This is not a necessarily prerequisite to become a succesful PM or President or a great leader but it certainly would help if our leaders undertood the uniqueness of the military mindset and the concept of loyality to their country and it's ideals and values that is instilled in our soldiers, airmen, and sailors. It used to be called patriotism. Love of country is sneered at today by those who very well may live to see the end of all that exists around them in the form of their national governments and society sooner than they might think.

This lack of respect for the military by many from the post WW II generation in leadership today may be the death knell for our Western societies (UK, USA, and others) who have the responsibilty to defend our freedoms and way of life.

All this is happening at the worst possible junction in our history. The moral collapse of the West, massive immigration, and the rise of radical Islam and all that modern Jihad represents which sane people who know history realize is the perfect storm for our destruction.

26 October 2012 at 16:46  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

John Magee

You'redepressing me more than len's posts! Allthis doom andgloom. Do rememberyou're a Catholic now - with Irish roots. We don't do doom and gloom. We face the future with a spring in our step and hope in the goodness of God.

I posted the following above. It is relevant here.

Who really supposes that man is more sinful today than yesterday ... than in Eden?

The world is as it is - fallen.

The Seven Cardinal Sins:

- Lust
- Gluttony
- Greed
- Sloth
- Wrath
- Envy
- Pride/Vainglory

These mortal sins, which destroy the life of grace and charity within a person, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart which is accomplished within the setting of the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Are they growing in intensity and frequency? Is man more corrupt today? Will the modern manifestations of depravity result in a definitive, even final, response from God? Is time running out? Who knows? Only God. The timing is not is scripture and the signs of the end times have been signs seen since 33AD.

Our Head Teacher at Primary School -Sister Emeldar - used to say at Assembly:

"Now children.
Start each day as if its your first;
Live each day as though it were your last."

At the time we all thought see was crazy! Today, I understand her and thank her.

26 October 2012 at 23:37  
Blogger len said...

Dodo....You present the problem as depressingly as John Magee..I though you might have had a glimpse of' the solution' but now I am not so sure(you standing on a shaky foundation and all)

The problem is us!.We gave Satan authority to become our' god'and he still reigns over those who refuse to accept Jesus Christ as their sole source of salvation or reject Him entirely!.

The solution to every problem of this World ...God`s ONLY solution.... is Jesus Christ...crucified.

God judged and destroyed the 'old man'. the fallen Adamic Creation on the Cross of Calvary.

The New Man the New Creation arose ressurected from the tomb.

So we are either IN the Old Creation (even...yes even... if you are 'religious'but not born again)

OR we are born again born from above and we have been placed(by God)in His New Creation under the Headship of Jesus Christ.

The Cross was the greatest negative in the World .

The Ressurection is the greatest posive in this World and the Next!!!.

27 October 2012 at 09:22  
Blogger len said...


27 October 2012 at 09:23  
Blogger Manfarang said...

You forgot to mention that the Portuguese are returning to Launda in droves.

27 October 2012 at 12:07  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Is that the case Manfarang. As ever, hope springs eternal, what ! To triumph over pragmatic reasoning.

You do realise there is so much inter tribal rivalry in that country it fuelled a civil war for a quarter of a century, which ended a mere yesterday ?

Repair the basket with sticky tape, eggs are to be placed there once again...

27 October 2012 at 12:46  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Stuck record len, I'm afraid. In the above thread you agree with my comment. Do make up your mind, old chap.

We are reborn, as Christ said, through water and the Spirit. In Baptism we die and are resurrected with Him, free from the guilt of original sin - but not its 'after-effects' as it leaves us wounded.

The rest is simple Christian orthodoxy, believed for millenia until this 'fast-track' concept of "born again", a dangerous heresy, took root. Mixed with protestant notions of Christ covering sin, rather than man striving to perfect his soul through responding to God's Grace, it is fatal.

27 October 2012 at 15:39  
Blogger John Magee said...


I am card carrying member of the crepe hanger's union. We see the worst in almost everything that happens and for us the future always looks gloomy. So when things turn out for the best it's a happy surprise for us.

Somehow I think Inspector is also a fellow member of the CH Union.

That's the image I present. Inside I am of course a RC and love the Church and agree with much of what you say and how well you articulate it here. I also appreciate what Protestants like len, carl jacobs, IanCad, lord lavendon and others have to say. They make me think and help me to understand their valid perspectives of our common Christian faith

It's my nature to be critcal and stick it the eye of the establishment while at the same time I am 100% establishment. I hope you understand I'm a sort of devislish devil's advovate who loves to question the things he loves.

27 October 2012 at 21:53  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

John Magee said ...

"I also appreciate what Protestants like len, carl jacobs, IanCad, lord lavendon and others have to say. They make me think and help me to understand their valid perspectives of our common Christian faith."

Let them test your faith and question theirs but do remember there is no middle way between truth and error.

They have "perspective(s)" and insights, I agree. However, I wouldn't call all of them "valid". The core of protestantism, a rejection of the authority, doctrines and traditions of Rome and a reliance on the 5 Solas, is, to coin a phrase, anathama <denounced) by the Church.

Trust you agree. So chin up. Bolster morale. The faith you represent is optimistic about God and His control of history not gloomy. Whatever happens we can be sure God is in control.

28 October 2012 at 00:53  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


Mixed with protestant notions of Christ covering sin, rather than man [working] to [earn his own salvation] through responding to God's Grace, it is fatal.

I thought I would just repeat this statement and let it stand on its own. The content may have been slightly edited for clarity.


28 October 2012 at 02:04  
Blogger len said...

IF man could make himself righteous by 'good works'then Jesus didn`t need to go to Calvary.

In fact' good works'which is basically 'self righteousness' are an obstacle that stand between man and God.

If Jesus said "Why do you call me good when no man is good only God" why should we expect to do better than Jesus Christ.

Can one not really see the foolishness of 'self righteousness.. good works as a means of earning 'brownie points' with God.... it is actually an insult to Jesus Christ to claim that one is 'good!'.

28 October 2012 at 20:12  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Carl Jacobs

Is that how you read the Bible too? Add or remove words to make things clearer.

What I actually wrote:

"We are reborn, as Christ said, through water and the Spirit. In Baptism we die and are resurrected with Him, free from the guilt of original sin - but not its 'after-effects' as it leaves us wounded.

The rest is simple Christian orthodoxy, believed for millenia until this 'fast-track' concept of "born again", a dangerous heresy, took root. Mixed with protestant notions of Christ covering sin, rather than man striving to perfect his soul through responding to God's Grace, it is fatal."

You have fallen in my estimation with your dishonest misrepresentation.

29 October 2012 at 21:20  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


You have fallen in my estimation with your dishonest misrepresentation.

Get over yourself. I didn't 'dishonestly represent' anything. I deliberately pointed out my changes with brackets, and then deliberately stated what I did so it couldn't possibly have been missed. I did everything but set off flares and sound audible alarms. It was an easy way to illustrate the implications of what you said. I could have quoted you exactly and then repeated the quotes with modifications, but the duplication seemed pointless. So where then is the dishonesty? Where is the misrepresentation? Your charges would be true only if I changed your words without pointing it out.

Now you may think there is some significant difference between 'strive' and 'work.' I don't. You may think there is some significant difference between 'perfecting your soul' and 'earning your own salvation.' I don't. And that was the whole point. There isn't a knowledgeable Protestant alive who would have missed that obvious connection - who would have failed to seem the blindingly clear implications of what you wrote. I simply said it out loud.


30 October 2012 at 03:41  
Blogger len said...

There seems to be much misunderstanding at exactly what being 'born again' is or means?.

Man consists of Spirit..Soul and Body.
Scripture bears this out!.'I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ' (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

When we are' born again'our spirit is perfected forever..One event!.

Our Soul(mind will and emotions )is BEING saved.

Our Body WILL be saved.

31 October 2012 at 21:10  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len, Our Body WILL be saved.

What a sod you are. That will really go down well with the surviving thalidomide victims. Look you loon, when you are dead you are dead. We trust to Christ for the salvation of our SOULS not our body, nitwit...

31 October 2012 at 21:58  

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