Sunday, December 30, 2012

Pray for the Archbishop of Canterbury elect


He is not yet installed, but the carping and criticising have already begun. The Telegraph leads, as ever, with its myopic anti-Anglican tendencies and obsession with ephemeral trivia. The Bishop of Durham the Rt Rev Justin Welby was ill just before Christmas, and tweeted (yes, he himself) that he was grateful to the NHS for the advice it gave. That was all: a simple 140-character appreciation of a health helpline, by virtue of which the Telegraph manufactures a rather bitchy diatribe of the Bishop's commitment to socialist thought and the very worst inefficiences of Tory modernisation.

Today, Dr Rowan Williams departs as the 104th Archbishop of Canterbury to take up the posts of Master of Magdalene College Cambridge. Since Justin Welby is not officially installed as the 105th Archbishop of Canterbury until 21st March, the Church of England is in a kind of interregnum, perched tentatively between two princes of the Church - one a highly-respected intellectual, the other a relatively untried former oil executive.

But the incoming Apostle to the English needs our prayers, not smarmy wisecracks or snide imputations of deficiency. The Province of Canterbury consists of 29 dioceses over which the Archbishop will have jurisdiction 'as superintendent of all ecclesial matters therein' with the specific responsibility to 'correct and supply the defects of other bishops' (Canon C17:2). He will lead 80 million Christians in more than 160 countries. In addition, he inherits constitutional battles over the nature of establishment and a few more trivial skirmishes relating to gender and sexuality. With seismic demographic changes and multi-faith pluralism, the Church of England cannot continue as it has done in its present form for four centuries. As it adapted to the religio-political circumstances of the 16th century, so must it meet the challenges of the post-Christian era.

It will be for Justin Welby to steer the Anglican ship through the present choppy waters and impending whirlpools without foundering on the rocks of logical positivism or aggressive secularism. But with adherents of other denominations hurling stones of discontent even before Bishop Justin is sworn of the Privy Council, one may soon distinguish between those who obey the Lord's exhortation to love and those who sadly feel the need to tear strips off a character at every turn. Whatever happened to Ut Unum Sint?

112 Comments:

Blogger Flossie said...

I don't think we will all be one any time soon, YG. There are too many different factions at work, all clamouring for their particular proclivities to be to the forefront, be it their gender or sexuality.

But thank you for this lovely post. Yes, Bishop Justin deserves our prayers, and he will need them.

Today the Telegraph tells us that the Muslim Council of Britain has more of a voice than the Archbishop of Canterbury. Well, let us hope that the new ABC has a slightly louder voice than the previous one!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9770800/Muslim-Council-has-more-of-a-voice-than-Archbishop-of-Canterbury.html

30 December 2012 13:07  
Blogger Neill said...

Your Grace,

Indeed - both the Rt Rev'd Justin Welby and the Most Rev'd Rowan Williams deserve our prayers at this time in their lives.

Archbishop Rowan Williams will, I believe, be rememebered as a principled, thoughtfully and genuinely Holy leader of our Church; and I am confident that Bishop Justin Welby will be a superb leader, too. Comparison is both impossible at this stage and more importantly misses the point.

Two genuinely good men, both in the service of our wonderful established Church, let us just take a moment to thank God for them both, and for their extraordinary abilities and talents.

Meanwhile, a tiny point, but shouldn't it be "Archbishop-elect of Canterbury" rather than "Archbishop of Canterbury elect"?

Wishing Your Grace all happiness, holiness and peace in 2013.

N.

30 December 2012 17:25  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

"The samurai", or indeed the Archbishop of Canterbury, "must maintain his faith in his beliefs, even as the social or political climate shifts and alters.

He must be patient, must act in a manner that may at times seem irrational or illogical, must resist the temptations of instant gratification, and must work towards fulfilling what may seem to be an impossible idea.

As a result, the samurai is often something of an outsider, a rebellious figure because he refuses to conform to the habits of the day."

(Takahiro Kitamura)

Will Justin Welby be such a man?

30 December 2012 18:04  
Blogger john in cheshire said...

YG, you say Mr Williams is : a highly-respected intellectual. Really, respected by whom. If it's respect from fellow socialists then he's in good company but I suspect that the majority of the normal, English people of our nation feel completely betrayed by this man. Thank God he is leaving. All that is left his to God that his successor is more of a Christian. And a very import

30 December 2012 18:13  
Blogger john in cheshire said...

sorry, computer with Windows 8 being a bit unruly.

I meant to add :
and a very important move for the new ABC would be to put the muslims back in their place; which is not at the heart of our country.

30 December 2012 18:15  
Blogger Pedant said...

" As it adapted to the religio-political circumstances of the 16th century, so must it meet the challenges of the post-Christian era. "

Adapted is hardly the word and "post-Christian" is surely, and tellingly, a purely political term. No doubt the whole would more accurately read: as it was brand-spankingly, newly constituted as a religio-political institution in the 16th century and so formally marked the beginning of the post-Christian era in England, the Church of England must now at last recognize that in trying to serve both God and mammon one ends up serving mammon alone. 

30 December 2012 18:21  
Blogger Laurence Boyce said...

"Whatever happened to Ut Unum Sint?"

What happened is that it failed. Despite the constant guidance of scripture and the Holy Spirit, Christians can't agree on anything. Funny that. Welby needs to accept this and strike out in one direction or another - liberal or conservative. Another ten years of fence sitting is going to be too painful to contemplate.

30 December 2012 18:25  
Blogger Julia Gasper said...

A Twittering Archbishop is hard to cope with (no pun intended).

30 December 2012 18:27  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Pope John Paul concluded Ut Unum Sint with these words:

"I say to you, the faithful of the Catholic Church, and to you, my brothers and sisters of the other Churches and Ecclesial Communities: 'Mend your ways, encourage one another, live in harmony, and the God of love and peace will be with you ... The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all' (2 Cor 13:11,13)."

30 December 2012 18:29  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

This is the man who was rather hoping he would be spared the onerous task, is it not ?

Doesn’t bode well, what !


30 December 2012 18:44  
Blogger Bridget said...

@Laurence,
"Despite the constant guidance of scripture and the Holy Spirit, Christians can't agree on anything"

That's nonsense. Many Christians agree with each other on many things. And for the Church qua Church there is no right or left. 
Why bother to comment when you have no concern for the truth? 

30 December 2012 19:28  
Blogger Bridget said...

@Dodo,
Would the Orthodox be considered one of the "other Churches" while the Anglicans fit "Ecclesial Communities?"

30 December 2012 19:35  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Your Grace,

I will of course pray for this new Archbishop, who is the spiritual pastor and teacher for the many millions of Anglicans across the globe.

And of course I am sure that you will pray for our new Chief Rabbi. I am sure that you have heard that we also have a new Chief Rabbi -who starts in his post next year- Ephraim Mirvis, who has (amongst many things) been the Chief Rabbi of Ireland, but having been born in South Africa.

I think that our new Chief Rabbi, who has big shoes to fill after the leadership of Lord Sacks, comes with a huge amount of pastoral skill and care, as well as bringing with him the luck of the Shamrock of Ireland.

I hope that Rabbi Mirvis and His Grace , Welby, will have a constructive and fruitful dialogue.

30 December 2012 20:08  
Blogger Laurence Boyce said...

Welby: Jesus is Lord and Saviour of mankind.

Mirvis: No he isn't.

Welby: More sherry . . . ?

30 December 2012 20:19  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Laurence,

LOL.

30 December 2012 20:26  
Blogger non mouse said...


One prays, Your Grace: for Bishop Welby, and that the Lord will work through him as you suggest.

30 December 2012 20:34  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Laurence

I would hope that the ABC would serve something better than Sherry to the Chief Rabbi, a fine malt Whiskey for instance...

30 December 2012 20:40  
Blogger bluedog said...

We must indeed pray for ++ Welby, Your Grace, in particular that he successfully guides our Church through some of the more contentious issues at hand.

And Mr Boyce @ 20.19, cheap shot. Just remember that the fastest growing demographic in the land keenly awaits the enthronement of the Grand Mufti of England in Canterbury Mosque.

No sherry there or then.

30 December 2012 20:48  
Blogger how life is changing said...

Just wondering what the implications are for our nation if it is true that the Muslim Council of Britain has more influence than the Church of England. And does it have more influence than the body of Christ as a whole?
'Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.'Romans 15:13

30 December 2012 20:50  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Your Grace,

I can only echo my sister's sentiment. I pray for and wish Archbishop Welby well. I am not a Christian, but have always had a bit of soft spot for the C of E. So G-d bless.

30 December 2012 21:11  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Bluedog,

If I may say, you are correct about Laurence Boyce's cheap shots. For example, what kind of Jew would drink Sherry without first checking it is Kosher?

If I could be un-British and say that you are in robust health for a dog of 98. The confusing thing about German shepherds, though, is that Alsace is French...

As you would expect my comment on Laurence and yourself, one being slightly anti-religion and the other being a talking dog and all, leads me nicely to another joke :

'A guy is driving around suburban Jerusalem and he sees a sign in front of a house: "Talking Dog For Sale."

He rings the bell and the owner tells him the dog is in the backyard. The guy goes into the backyard and sees a Labrador retriever sitting there.

"So, you talk?" he asks.
"Yap," the dog replies.
"So, what's your story?" asks the man.

The dog looks up and says, "Well, I discovered that I could talk when I was pretty young and I wanted to help out. So I told the Mossad about my gift, and in no time at all they had me working flat strap, sitting in rooms with spies and world leaders and suspected terrorists, because no one figured a dog would be eavesdropping.

I was one of their most valuable agents for eight years running. But it was exhausting work and really tired me out. I knew I wasn't getting any younger and I wanted to settle down. So I signed up for a less stressful job at Ben Gurion airport to do some undercover security work, mostly wandering near suspicious characters and listening in. I uncovered some incredible stuff and was awarded a batch of medals. During that time I got married, had a mess of puppies, and now I'm just retired. And pretty much, that's it."

The guy is amazed. He goes back in and asks the owner what he wants for the dog.

"Ten thousand dollars." The guy says,
"This dog is amazing. Why on earth are you selling him so cheap?"
"Because he's a liar. He never worked for Mossad!"'

30 December 2012 21:18  
Blogger bluedog said...

Thank you Mr Kavanagh, very funny. Of course, I'm not an Alsatian, so no Franco-German tensions complicate my life.

All being well, I look forward to my 105th birthday this year!

30 December 2012 22:10  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

Dodo.

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

Now, where did I put the Seltzers?

30 December 2012 22:22  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Blue Dog,

Well...I always thought you were more of a centre-right, one nation Disraelian Conservative English bulldog, than a Bismarkian German lapdog.

30 December 2012 22:40  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Bluedog aged 98 ? My hole, as a Dublin man might say...

You fools, he’s expressing his years in animal equivalent !


30 December 2012 22:49  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

30 December 2012 23:02  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

30 December 2012 23:05  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

how life is changing said...

"Just wondering what the implications are for our nation if it is true that the Muslim Council of Britain has more influence than the Church of England."

Have no fear the Catholic Church still speaks openly on behalf of Christians and is not afraid to teach the Gospel.

Bridget said...

"Dodo,
Would the Orthodox be considered one of the "other Churches" while the Anglicans fit "Ecclesial Communities?"


Now you're getting technical and controversial too!

The Orthodox 'Churches of the East', although separated from Catholics, still retain the sacraments — by virtue of Apostolic succession — a Priesthood and the Eucharist, and are still joined to the Catholic Church in a very close relationship because of this.

There are unresolved issues about this between Rome and Canterbury. However, lets remind ourselves of what the Pope wrote:

"Christians of one confession no longer consider other Christians as enemies or strangers but see them as brothers and sisters ... which the Spirit fosters in spite of historical and canonical divisions.

Today we speak of "other Christians", "others who have received Baptism", and "Christians of other Communities"."


Laurence Boyce

The conversation went this way:

Welby: "Jesus is Lord and Saviour of mankind."

Mirvis: "Oh NO he isn't."

Welby: "Oh YES He is ..."

30 December 2012 23:09  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
May I refer back to your remarks over the New Years Honour List.
I have just scanned through the list and despite seeing at least two for the LBGT groups; I saw none 'For services to God for the propagation of the Gospel'.
This either means they don't consider it worthy of honour or there was no significant work done by anyone in that area.
I did see this however, 'For services to Adults with Intellectual Disabilities in Sudbury'
I am sure that you might believe that many commentators on this blog have 'Intellectual Disabilities'.

31 December 2012 00:21  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Integrity,

So for being a Christian, or following your religion you want or expect others to get a medal?

And the jibe about people with 'intellectual disabilities'; is that a mocking tone against people who have children with intellectual or other disabilities?

Or is it a simple good old fashioned ad hominem against people whom you don't agree with, but who post on this site?

31 December 2012 00:50  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Mr Integrity

In case you didn't understand Mr David Kavanaugh, what he's saying is that you're a bit of a tw*t.

Now me, I couldn't possibly comment.

31 December 2012 02:01  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

31 December 2012 02:42  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

The best wishes, good health and success to your in-coming Archbishop of Canterbury, Your Grace. Since Miss Kavangh brought up the departing Chief Rabbi of GB, Lord Rabbi Sacks, and now I'm amused to muse on the possibility that Archishop Welby may be shoe-horned into the position of having to take over as the "General Defender of Religion" in Britain, which Rabbi Sacks appeared to fill and which the future Chief Rabbi Mirvis will be unlikely inclined to tackle, being more focussed on the immediate needs of the British Jewish community. An article in Jewish Ideas Daily makes an unconvincing case for similarities between Archbishop Williams and Chief Rabbi Sacks, but I can't help thinking that a Welby & Sacks team would have been much more formidable.

Dodo and David, as a former "inmate" in what was colloquially known as a "school for dummies," thanks to my severe learning disabilities and functional illiteracy in early and middle childhood, I'm perhaps a little more sensitive to quips about "intellectual disabilities." However, Mr Integrity's comment did not raise my hackles, as being familiar with his thoughts and attitudes, and I think you folks are wrong, as I'm certain that he did not in any way intend to slight genuine or clinical cases...only the genuine and ubiquitous idiots and numbskulls and dare I even say, retards, we've all had to suffer on this and other blogs.

31 December 2012 02:47  
Blogger non mouse said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

31 December 2012 03:58  
Blogger non mouse said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

31 December 2012 07:04  
Blogger non mouse said...

Interesting, Mr. Integrity @00:21 ---'For services to Adults with Intellectual Disabilities in Sudbury' Is that Mr. Yeo's remit? If so, perhaps he's nervous of climate change and has been currying favour with his boss? You know the one: that Mr. Camoron who wants the British screened for Dementia.

Still, Dr. Williams will be (just) far enough away from Sudbury. Besides, he's now ineluctably "elite" as Baron Williams of Oystermouth (I'm sure the euros like that high german-sounding expression so much better than plain English "Lord"**).

But oh, Mr. Bluedog, those years are creeping up on you too fast!!! I fear you'll be 112 ere the break of '13!

You're pretty safe tho' Avi. What with being nearer to Greater Sudbury. Anyway you've come such a long way since you were a baby!! Nobody'll get to label you "behind the door" for a while yet... :))


____________
**From OE: hlaf weard "Loaf Guardian."

31 December 2012 07:07  
Blogger Naomi King said...


Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none. Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD.

The Archbishop might like to listen to this :

http://www.operationgreatbritain.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Pathfinder-29th-december-2012.mp3

31 December 2012 09:30  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

I've had two career experiences that I think the new ABC is going to have.

Talked into doing a job he doesn't really want, but out of loyalty and a sense of responsibility feels duty bound to accept the poisoned chalice.

He will walk into a mess, find himself confronted with disloyaly, dishonesty, intransigence and self regard.

He will get the blame for everything that is wrong whilst those who created the mess ride into the sunset or sit on the sidelines throwing rocks.

Once I won through, another time I didn't

Only if he triumphs will he be regarded as worthy.

From what I can see I think his chances are very slim indeed.

31 December 2012 10:16  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Non mouse said, ...Nobody'll get to label you "behind the door" for a while yet... :))

Kind thoughts, non mouse, but you don't know my wife.

Harry-ca-Nab said, He will walk into a mess, find himself confronted with disloyaly, dishonesty, intransigence and self regard....He will get the blame for everything that is wrong whilst those who created the mess ride into the sunset or sit on the sidelines throwing rocks.

Not to mention too that Rev. Welby looks like such a gentle, fragile and distracted fellow in his pics. But let's not forget that he was an oil executive once and that he rose through the Church ranks quite rapidly. Pity the side-sitters and rock throwers instead.

31 December 2012 13:20  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Avi said; Mr Integrity's comment did not raise my hackles, as being familiar with his thoughts and attitudes, and I think you folks are wrong, as I'm certain that he did not in any way intend to slight genuine or clinical cases...only the genuine and ubiquitous idiots and numbskulls and dare I even say, retards, we've all had to suffer on this and other blogs.
Thank you Avi for understanding my true sentiments. Those who criticised think of themselves too highly.
As to Honours to services for reviving the spiritual state of the nation is of equal merit if not greater than most of the other categories without even mentioning LBGT.
And as to the bird that is extinct; I couldn’t possibly comment.

31 December 2012 14:25  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Integrity old fellow, you of course continue to enjoy the Inspector’s confidence.

31 December 2012 14:47  
Blogger Curt said...

As someone who is neither part of the CoE nor a UK citizen, I have been praying and will continue to pray for Bishop Welby and the Church.

31 December 2012 15:24  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Inspector;
A very happy and prosperous new year to you sir.
BTW. I'm thinking of changing my name to Mr Twat. What do you think?

31 December 2012 16:07  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Felicitations, dear Integrity. One notes you have been unfairly molested of late. Suggest ‘Mr Impeccable’

31 December 2012 16:54  
Blogger John Magee said...

God be with you and guide you Archbishop. Anglicanism along with all Christian Churches face some very difficult times ahead.

Please, Never compremise! This has caused so much pain in the recent past.

PAX VOBISCUM!

31 December 2012 18:04  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Good Luck to Bishop Justin, he's going to need it.

Let's hope he puts those of the snide, sneering and negative variety back in their boxes pretty soon and seals the lid on them.

Give him a chance I say.

31 December 2012 18:14  
Blogger John Magee said...

Julia Gasper

There was "twittering" in the Bible.

Didn't a dove bring a freshly plucked olive branch to Noah while he stood on the deck of his Ark as proof the waters were receeding?

There was other "twittering" (and barking) too in the Bible.

Who teacheth us more than the beasts of the earth, and maketh us wiser than the fowls of heaven?"

Job 35:11

Then there is the dove which symbolizes the Holy Ghost for Christians.

Luke 3:22

"..and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; and with you I am well pleased.”

31 December 2012 18:15  
Blogger bluedog said...

non mouse @ 07.07, it seems I was getting ahead of myself, its 105 in 2013 and, DV, 115 in 2014. How the years fly past at ever increasing speed!

A very Happy New Year to you and thank you for some excellent posts.

31 December 2012 20:05  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Mr Integrity,

I have realised that you are really upset about not being Mr Integrity "OBE" (which should be your Nome De Plume henceforth),for being Christian of the year.

I also understand that those feisty gays get all the trophies. When I read the NT, I must have been reading a different document, 'cause I read the bit about storing treasures in heaven....

In any case,I can sympathise with you because I was also upset about not being Dave Kav "MBE" for being Jew of the year. I mean, look, I have a cool hat and a beard. But that isn't enough to get me an award or be Jewish! It's all the gays fault of course... for some reason I will make up later.

Doh!

31 December 2012 20:26  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Mr Barzel

Cheers for the link. I think part of the problems with religion in general is that when we look at the religious structure, we are looking at plumbing, rather than the quality of the water than flows through it.

31 December 2012 20:33  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Mr Integrity

Once again I'll translate Mr Kavanagh for you: "Stop feeling sorry for yourself and man-up".

Me? I couldn't possibly comment.

31 December 2012 22:04  
Blogger Kinderling said...

I hope someone comes for the Christians and leads them out, as the Jews once had their man of the moment. Had to wait 2000 years too.

The fact you cannot put a cigarette paper between the Archbishop and Chief Rabbi on Radio 4's 'Thought for the Gay' must say something about bland and business as usual.

At peace with the world and war with your conscience, or war with the world and peace with yourself.

Scaring old ladies for a widow's mite, praising the female line for a widow's might.

These are feminized religions... and Daddy's rageful Allah's comin' home.

31 December 2012 22:52  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Dodo,

Ah, thanks for the blunter Irish transliteration of my humble posts.

'I couldn't possibly comment'.

I think that was from a political novel by a politician. Can't recall who wrote it or who the character was though.

31 December 2012 22:52  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Kinderling,

Oh do go away.

But before you do:

1. Why is Judaism a mental illness?

2. What qualifications do you have to make such a prognosis?

3. Why is it you say religion is 'socialist', but at the same time call it a mental illness, the typical viewpoint of the communist bloc of the cold war era?

I have 2 other questions, but I am sure that the above 3 will be enough to send google into meltdown tonight.

31 December 2012 22:55  
Blogger non mouse said...

Thank you in return, Mr. bluedog @ 20:05, and also for your own outstanding contributions here.

The best of the New Year as well: to you and yours.

1 January 2013 07:33  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

david k:

Not worth the effort, I assure you. But pressing on the front of actual psychology is well worth it if you want to see just how vaccuous Kinderling's views are.

1 January 2013 08:59  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

Avi, I wish the new ABC luck but have no pity for those who throw rocks or hinder a fair resolution to the CofE's probs.

The bigger task though will to be fill the spirtual void in the UK that Williams did so little to fill.

People will follow a forthright leader. Williams simply talked in riddle and had no common touch. In fact I doubt most Britons know who is is.

They do however know who the Pope is - esp. after his amazing visit to the UK.

1 January 2013 11:51  
Blogger Kinderling said...

David K,

1. Why is Judaism a mental illness?

I am well aware the whole House of Ego sits before me.

To do anything that is not of spirit is slavery. To be a slave is to make a person mentally ill.
However, catch a child and splice his skin like some Africans mark their children's faces to ward of evil spirits, and you have a conformist, the Stockholm Syndrome of a psychopath or sociopath; to be Jewish by faith or Jewish by nature respectively. Another imprinted person by the environment in which they were raised.

Jesus came for such sick. To rescue his own countrymen. For illness followed upon each generation. Have you not met the most pious and the most vulgar from such a religious culture? Such extremes. Being Chosen and superior to all mankind, has it's presures and escapisms no person should bear. The ritual becomes the focus of hypnosis to cope. Finding the stages-of-enlightement-to-liberation becomes the goal in itself.

Nothing has it. Knowledge does not bring salvation.

2. What qualifications do you have to make such a prognosis?

You can see it before you. It is called observation, to watch the egos dance before you.

3. Why is it you say religion is 'socialist',

Judaism started as a revolt, a resentment of being slaves. In turn the slaves would become masters, where in reverse the life of a non-jew would be less than theirs. To meet the need of these inverted-snobs-made-kings, you had to remove the 'feminine' - the Golden Calf Worshippers of the Lottery for "Hope and Change". They would stand in the way of any revolution because they would have pity on the opressed. 3000 Semites were murdered by at the foot of the mountain so Moses could behold Allah to his Chosen people.

The seed of resentment created a master race. And ever has.

This male-dominated society of the pursuit of intellectual argument florished, until conquered by men whose leaders themselves were gods.

The Jews were not people of science, that pursuit of truth, until their evolved brain was set free. Then they became Jews of genetics, a realization of superior intellect by breeding. But not of body, that was left to the Africans in the seering heat and parched landscapes. Unnatural Selection breeding always leaves its mark.

The religions of Judaism today have modified to the point of women and Gay rabbis in the Liberal synagogues. Earlier the male in the home had guaranteed the children for the faith, now it is the single mother in the home who guarantees it.

The Angry Jealous male-God, has become the soothing female-God of solace. The Mysteries, like the Christian Churches, is the faith. Kabalah the magic to pursue.

but at the same time call it a mental illness,

Anything not normal for a child is mental pressure that competes with realty, causing mental illness. There is no moderating male authority in the home. The Maleness of God attracts the female and the religious husband to her is merely a performing sockpuppet.

the typical viewpoint of the communist bloc of the cold war era?

To realize genderized religions of the world are the prevention of sanity. One rage leads to another. The rage of feminism will lead to the rage of Islam or Communism. To take your cake completely from you, or force you to eat all of it.

1 January 2013 12:41  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Kinderling

Glad to note that you really don't have any grounds to say that Judaism is a mental illness. Using your powers of observation and deduction, I can conclude that the rest of your argument is a collection of ideas woven together via a new age Psychobabble narrative.

1 January 2013 14:09  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

I see your points, Harry-ca-Nab, but I think your assessment invests too much responsibility in the ability of formal religious leaders to make a differece to the religious state of their communities. I don't think that the spiritual void you mention can be filled by an Archbishop, Pope or Chief Rabbi; that task's up to the rank and file. A "bring-your-own materials" in a "fill-your-own-void" project for us. What such leaders can do, though, is to be good Chief Executive Officers, to manage well, repair and reform, cheer-lead or inspire, explain, defend and facilitate. I have a feeling the new AB of C will do this rather well, given the C of E formal relation to the State and its hierarchical structure. Can't say the new Chief Rabbi will, or to be fair, can, given the fact that chief rabbinate positions, which we don't have or ever will accept here in North America, can do little more than to present a diplomatic front to the non-Jewish world.

Well, David K you asked and you received. Alas, what you got from Kinderling is a burned, over-spiced mish-mash patched together from the ravings of some angry half-wit who may have actually read Freud, namely, The Future of an Illusion, Group Psychology and the Analysis of the Ego, Moses and Monotheism and of course, Civilization and its Discontents. As hostile psychoanalyses of Jews and Judaism go, no one can beat our dear Siggy, a reluctant insider with a brilliant and functioning mind. Kinderling is merely a cofused ex-hippie with a terror of women and a feverish inferiority complex over Jews. Freud would have kicked him off his office couch and sent him for some more rudimentary "treatment" to the old Narrenturm, the Tower of Fools asylum in Vienna. Hmm...it still stands, by the way.

1 January 2013 14:16  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

David: "I think that was from a political novel by a politician. Can't recall who wrote it or who the character was though.

Francis Urquhart

1 January 2013 14:41  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

David K, I should mention that the best biography of Freud to date is Freud and His Followers by the late Boston-born, Harvard graduate Paul Roazen, z"l. I was honoured to take one of his seminars in '81 or '82. He smoked a pipe and filled the seminar room with sweet, expensive-smelling smoke which I can still "smell" whenever reading about Freud. I spoke up only once in his class, saying something very inane, which earned me a look of indifference and not even a snort, much less a comment. I still have an autographed soft cover copy of Dr Roazen's book.

1 January 2013 14:44  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Just spotted your last post, David K.

I'm afraid that you'd be wrong to assume that Kinderling came up with his Grand Hypothesis of Jesus and Christianity as a psychotherapeutic cure for Judaism. Kinderling goes on record to claim that he made that brilliant conclusion all by his lonesome self, from his own "powers of observation and deduction" no less, but as with his filching from Freud, it's another cheap rip-off he can't fess-up to, that one from a British lergyman, Benjamin Gilbert Sanders and his Christianity after Freud: An Interpretation of the Christian Experience in the Light of Psycho-Analytic Theory, first published in 1949. Oopsie.

I'm now thinking of penning a book: Avi Barzel, The Decline and Dissolution of the Psychoanalysis of Religion: From Sigmund Freud to Kinderling Fraud.

1 January 2013 16:25  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Danjo,

Ah yes I remember now - the ironically named "Francis Urquart"

Avi,

Yes pretty much concur with the sentiment of the first bit of your post to Harry Cab. Re Kinderling, I had to ask and I got. And I will have to dust down some of my wife's old books. "sweet, expensive-smelling smoke". Ah, the good old days of academia!

1 January 2013 16:27  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Avi

Penn away! I have to admit, I am amazed by the scope of your broad polymath learning. Puts me to same for sure.

I've only recently gone to a laptop, from my previously beloved type writer. Perhaps there is something in using an old quill and ink? I often find that writing by hand makes me concentrate more on writing than using our modern tech stuff.

1 January 2013 16:35  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

David K, as much as I'd love to claim "broad polymath learning," uncovering Kiderling's source of "mad genius" was a no-brainer: About twenty minutes with Google and a few search terms.

I know what you mean about writing by hand. I take that fetish to the extreme by occasionally sitting down at a fragrant rosewood early 1900s writing desk I have in my den and dipping a steel-nibbed pen in India ink. Tried quills, but they dull quickly and my pen knife skills are not up to it. Modernity creeps up on us all, though, as most of the time the writing desk serves as a pleasant support for my laptop.

1 January 2013 16:54  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Glad I'm not the only one who prefers hand writing stuff!

1 January 2013 18:00  
Blogger len said...

The Rt Rev Justin Welby is certainly taking on an extremely difficult job.
We can only hope and pray the the Holy Spirit will guide him through the 'reefs 'and 'shoals' that the Anglican ship will have to steer.


1 January 2013 19:53  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len we pray for Welby. And, if he takes inspiration from His Grace, let him only read the missal and ignore the comments thereafter lest he find your born again dross.

Amen


1 January 2013 20:26  
Blogger Kinderling said...

What comes from the mind of Man, comes from the mind of Man.

Their greatest fears shaped their Gods.

When the crops were tamed, so were the Goddesses of Fertility.

When the elements were tamed so were the Gods of Heaven.

The Gods are now for those remaining insecurities: will I live, will I be successful, will I be master of my home? The war between the genders to be progenitor or vassal, to tame reproduction itself.

No woman shall enter the temple, no man shall speak the truth. Fascist and Socialist kingdoms. Love is no defence, truth is no defence.

But you will talk of religions as though they were real, and not the evil they all are.

1 January 2013 20:27  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Kinderling

Oh that is great! Please, encore! You really brighten up my day with your nonsense.

1 January 2013 20:52  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Belfast,

Join the club. And you were quite correct that attempting to understanding Kinderling is like trying to speak underwater..

1 January 2013 20:53  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Very good, Kinderling. Having tried to plagiarize from Freud and Sanders, you've discovered that the Internet is a harsh mistress who makes it hard to pretend to genius. She can be very cruel too, in suddenly lime-lighting unsuspecting pretenders as they squint and blink helplessly with their trousers around their ankles. Much safer to revert to home-cooked pseudo-prophetic utterings and to smudge the trail by speaking Yoda or Underater (hat tip to Phil and AIB for the linguistic classifications). This new year's lesson: Creating one's own material is hard, but far less stressful in the end.

I, for one, enjoy your, What comes from the mind of Man, comes from the mind of Man. Very deep and so many levels to it one might think, until one reads on, reduces Yoda to basic semiotic and semantic components and discovers a popular cultural materialistic hypothesis of the origins of pristine religions a la 1970s Encyclopaedia Britanica edition. Nevertheless, a much better argument than poorly replicated psychoanalytics dating from the first half of the last century. As the Inspector likes to say, toodle pip, old boy.

1 January 2013 21:45  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Kinderling. The Inspector notes Buddhism does he not. You are a Buddhist then...


1 January 2013 21:50  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1 January 2013 21:53  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Avi,

Speaking Grand Master Yoda is something I understand, having briefly thought of being an Jedi. Of Kinderling we can quote Yoda: 'Much to learn he still has". LOL.

1 January 2013 21:54  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

We're all flailing in the dark, trying to define Kinderling's unique and inimitable Weltanschuung, Miss Hannah. I think that he went from early Freud to positivism and materialism, our Phil Roberts (if I recall right) has him for a Hare Krishna fellow, the Inspector detects traces of Buddhism, you've spotted Yoda etymologies and your brother, it seems, thinks the man is sheer bonkers. This is becoming an entertaining epistemological diversion.

1 January 2013 22:07  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Avi. We must remember the Buddha was some idle prince who semi slept under a tree all day. Now, add a crate of Guinness and a bush to piss behind, and the Inspector reckons he can out Buddha Buddha...

1 January 2013 22:27  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

I must say, Inspector, you have forever changed the way I will think of Buddhism. From an incense smoke obscured, snail-bedecked sage sitting in the lotus position, I will now have an image of you stumbling over empty bottles of Guinness, looking for a bush. I think they call this a "paradigm shift."

1 January 2013 22:43  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Kinderling

The Jews were not people of science, that pursuit of truth, until their evolved brain was set free. Then they became Jews of genetics, a realization of superior intellect by breeding. But not of body, that was left to the Africans in the seering heat and parched landscapes. Unnatural Selection breeding always leaves its mark.

The religions of Judaism today have modified to the point of women and Gay rabbis in the Liberal synagogues. Earlier the male in the home had guaranteed the children for the faith, now it is the single mother in the home who guarantees it.

The Angry Jealous male-God, has become the soothing female-God of solace.



but at the same time call it a mental illness,

Anything not normal for a child is mental pressure that competes with realty, causing mental illness. There is no moderating male authority in the home. The Maleness of God attracts the female and the religious husband to her is merely a performing sockpuppet."

Yes you can say almost the same about the Church.....If I read it carefully I start to get what you are saying. I agree with some of it..

Anyway we all want to know..

Are you a deciple of Krishna?

You see I atarted on that path once many years ago.



2 January 2013 01:53  
Blogger John Magee said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

2 January 2013 05:10  
Blogger John Magee said...

Kinderling

It's interesting to see some in this crowd gang up on you.

You will learn that the sacred cows here don't like to be confronted with facts they don't want to hear or want others to hear.

Labeling you anything negative by these few is the pot calling the kettle black.

Selfrigheous sacred cows are always on the alert sniffing out other people's bigotry.

@ Lord Lavendon

Best wishes for you and those you love for 2013.

I posted a few pictures on my profile of the small town, the country side, and my home where I live here in the boondocks of SE Pennsylvania. Please click on each of the photos to be sure to see them all (especially the first one on the upper left in the series). I'm taking them down in a day or two. You will see three Greek revival buildings. One is the Presbyterian Church near my house, the other is the chapel of the Presbytrian University here, and the last is the Court House on High Street. Please let me know if you were able to see all of them as this is the first time I posted pics on my profile.

2 January 2013 05:15  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Gentlemen,

Religions are based upon wishful thinking. The ball rolls, some conscious force must have pushed the ball many believe. But there is no God-Daddy, and no Goddess-Mummy either, just us being born and dying. You see it in the stars, you see it in Nature.

It is simply your attitude, a glass half full or a glass half empty. The lable on the bottle is the joke for the contents are the same.

This is the message I understand Jesus brought to his kith and kin. But it works for everyone locked into a religion on their sleeve. Even for those who made him into a death cult of salvation from themselves. Be conscious. Admit you don't know, and look for the reason you needed the props you call faith, and get so upset when people call you out on them.

2 January 2013 07:02  
Blogger William said...

Kinderling

What is the point of having a Christ-like attitude in the absence of God?

In the absence of God there is only the pursuit of ones desires and/or the preservation of ones genes. Both are objectively pointless - whatever attitude one takes.

2 January 2013 08:58  
Blogger Kinderling said...

The 'Christ-like' attitude is one of a 'child-like' attitude. It is to be gentle as a dove, with the maturity of being as wise as a serpent. That is why you won't see Dr Who being used as child rape for unwholesome sexual relations where character depth is replaced by superficial emotions and fancies.

Without God on your sleeve, your existance come from every word of god in your heart. Right and wrong, truth and lies, already written in the mind of a child until Santa Clause is imprinted on them and they have to share their toys to be good.

Kids buried by other religions turn out just as conformist.

Being without an external God and Goddess makes you look for yourself at those who clothe themselves in exaulted identities.

The truth sets you free. Your external God can't even stop an asteroid hitting the earth.

Those who do not protect their genes wake up with a county stolen from under them.

2 January 2013 10:17  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Not your imaginary "sacred cows" again, John. Kinderling makes wild and extreme claims, with a little of bit plagiarism peppered about and he's being called out for it. There is no imunity for anyone. It's the way debates work.

2 January 2013 10:53  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Avi,

Which God do you carry, what are the essential tennant must you adhere to, and what punishment for unbelievers does It have?

My yoke is light because all you have to do is see nonsense for what it is. Sabath was made for man, not for God. You would rescue a donkey out of a pit, but not use the lift!

2 January 2013 11:13  
Blogger Kinderling said...

OiG,

Buddism is another form of denial. The skin can be burning but they no longer feel it. The emotions can be burning but they no longer feel them. The conscience may be burning and they no longer hear it. So much, for the Religion of Compassion. It, likte The Religion of Peace is known by its opposite nature; isolation from problems, as the Mohammadan by his outrage.

You do not avoid or embrace your problems. Or else you become a Follower and seek the justification of believers. You ask yourself why you became pressured, see the root of your vulnerability, your upset, and let that ego go, shed a tear for your vanity, your bargaining with God or the stars. The truth about yourself sets you free.

2 January 2013 12:50  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

John Magee

I think Hinduism has sacred cows. Judaism does not because we are forbidden to worship idols. Besides which Kinderling is a delight to read and always makes me laugh. He has so far, put I think 10 years onto my life. And secondly he has encouraged me to do some study into Psychology.

2 January 2013 13:09  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Kinderling

"You would rescue a donkey out of a pit, but not use the lift!"

Ah, but could the lift be out of order, due to 'Elf and Safety' concerns because it had recently failed the yearly inspection?

Or more likely, perhaps Avi doesn't need to use a lift, because he's got his wagon?

2 January 2013 13:22  
Blogger William said...

Kinderling

"The truth sets you free. Your external God can't even stop an asteroid hitting the earth."

The truth of my God is revealed in Jesus Christ. He did not speak of asteroids, but of faith, hope and love.

2 January 2013 13:22  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

David K

I say just leave the donkey to work it out for himself. If the 'Spirit' inside and outside of us wants it to survive the pit, it will. We can't make the donkey dependent on others.

Eeew Oooah.

2 January 2013 13:34  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Kinderling said ...

"My yoke is light because all you have to do is see nonsense for what it is."

Yep ... that's about right ... ;o)

Now, who stole your innocence as a child you as a child, how and when?

2 January 2013 13:39  
Blogger John Magee said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

2 January 2013 13:57  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Your God does not protect you from viruses, and who would you want to have near you?: the Archbishop to pray over you, or a doctor who has years of observation and experiments to draw on?

The Man of Faith, or a woman of knowledge of herbs? The Witch Doctor or the Watch Doctor?

2 January 2013 14:09  
Blogger John Magee said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

2 January 2013 14:28  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Kinderling, interesting fellow that you are. We are slowly rounding on what you be, or so we would all like to think !

You do come across to this man as someone who once had deep faith in a supernatural creator, but has lost the top bit. You continue your erstwhile message to your students, but you speak slowly and sadly. There is no longer the urgency to proclaim our divine master, but all the time in the world to disappoint others as you are disappointed yourself. You speak well of the complexities of being, and thinking, yet all of what we are, what we have, came from nothing !

Bah !

One tells you this, there is far more likelyhood of there being a God-Daddy than not.





2 January 2013 18:17  
Blogger Kinderling said...

OiG,

You love your Boss, just don't tell children to remove their frontal lobe too.

Dodo,
To be born again means to see. It means you gave back what was not yours. To leave the gang leader and the members, to know what you know for yourself. Call no one Father in your discovery, you have only your own experience, not theirs.

If you are honest in your ignorance, you are honest with other's.

2 January 2013 19:29  
Blogger John Magee said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

2 January 2013 20:25  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Yes Kinderling but who harmed you and when?

2 January 2013 22:40  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

2 January 2013 22:44  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Dodo,

So you speak Donkey too? Of course there are speaking donkeys. There is one mentioned in the bible and of course there is the more famous talking donkey from Shrek (another compulsory Kavanagh family film).

Speaking of which, if a mere humble acolyte may add to Kinderling's musings :

Shrek: For your information, there's a lot more to ogres than people think.

Donkey: Example?

Shrek: Example... uh... ogres are like onions!
[holds up an onion, which Donkey sniffs]

Donkey: They stink?

Shrek: Yes... No!

Donkey: Oh, they make you cry?

Shrek: No!

Donkey: Oh, you leave 'em out in the sun, they get all brown, start sproutin' little white hairs...

Shrek: [peels an onion] NO! Layers. Onions have layers. Ogres have layers. Onions have layers. You get it? We both have layers.
[walks off]

Donkey: Oh, you both have LAYERS. Oh. You know, not everybody like onions. What about cake? Everybody loves cake!

Shrek: I don't care what everyone else likes! Ogres are not like cakes.

Donkey: You know what ELSE everybody likes? Parfaits! Have you ever met a person, you say, "Let's get some parfait," they say, "Hell no, I don't like no parfait"? Parfaits are delicious!

Shrek: NO! You dense, irritating, miniature beast of burden! Ogres are like onions! End of story! Bye-bye! See ya later.

Donkey: Parfait's gotta be the most delicious thing on the whole damn planet!

2 January 2013 22:50  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Inspector,

Now now, no one is rounding up on Guru Kinderling as he guides us in the quest for ultimate enlightenment.

And you have to admit that the world is sometimes a bit like our Kinderling. For example, I bought some good old fashioned coal for our fire the other day. Next to it was 'green' coal. I kid you not.

Regardless, I got the traditional coal, as I want something I know works, rather than the other day when I had a sales call trying to get me to put solar panels on my house.

Anyway, regarding Kinderling, we are probably giving him the biggest audience and time of day that he has ever had. I have to admit that I do find I look forward to his regular thought (s) for the day...

2 January 2013 23:01  
Blogger Kinderling said...

David,

You point out absurdities in the Holy Bible of a donkey talking, as there are about a virgin birth and redemptions for killing a child to animals and back to a human being.

What Jesus did in his teachings, was to describe and to prove practical and livable, the way to find the truth to find the life to freedom. That is all. The method of unbabling the brain that latched onto religion for validation.

Peeling away the onion is relevant because the simple truths of the conscience will not be heard until the outer faith is riddiculed by reality.

So if being at the 'talking donkey' stage is true to you because 'your bible told you so'... it is not true. Have cry, examine the genetics of a donkey, let it go, then come back and we can discuss some more.

3 January 2013 08:26  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

heh, there’s a thing !

We now await Kinderlings daily message. What would the Archbishop think if he ever found out !


3 January 2013 18:22  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Ah, Kinderling, questions you have for me (2 January 2013 11:13):

Avi...Which [G-d] do you carry, what are the essential tennant (sic.) must you adhere to, and what punishment for unbelievers does It have? I don't "carry" G-d (too awkward and heavy) and as for my tenets, if you google "Orthodox Judaism" and more specifically, "Modern Orthodoxy," you'll get a fairly good idea. As for "punishments for unbelievers," perhaps you're confusing Judaism with Christianity or Islam.

My yoke is light because all you have to do is see nonsense for what it is. Perhaps your "yoke" is a tad too light, if I dare say so, because you've become an intellectual sloth who writes random pseudo-prophetic gobledeygook, rips off ideas from Freud and Sanders to claim as his own and launches sophomoric, uninformed potshots as substitute for intellectual accomplishment. If I were you, I'd begin by working on my spelling and grammar and move on to the basics of sentence structure and presenting a coherent argument. Some serious reading, as opposed to skimming the Net for zingers, would be beneficial too. Just my opinion and with all due respect, of course.

Sabath was made for man, not for God. This is supposed to be news? A principle in the Torah, articulated by Rabbi Hillel a century before Jesus, formulated by the Pharisees, expounded on in the Talmud and applied by every observant Jew for a few thousand years?

You would rescue a donkey out of a pit, but not use the lift (presumably on the Sabbath)! Close, but again, no cigar; I would rescue a donkey, a kitten or a squirrel as well and would drive a stranger, even an ass, to the hospital too. I use Sabbath-compliant elevators when necessary...if that's alright with you.

3 January 2013 19:35  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Avi,

A magisterial reply to Kinderling as usual.

Hi David,

I don't know why you bother with Kinderling; if anything his posts are an insults to all faiths, including the eastern ones. His latest post on the thread above is just unintelligible.

3 January 2013 23:03  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Hi Hannah, perhaps not magisterial, but hopefully adequate. The boy asked and poked and needed to be informed. Who knows in what mutilated form my words will appear as his in other forums?

Kinderlings posts are a bit of a mess, but in this case I think he's snarking about Bilam's donkey in chapter b'Midbar. Imagine (snort!), a talking donkey (snort!). An odd story, but personally, I'd say that after creating the cosmos, splitting the Sea of Reeds, or feeding Israel with manna, making a donkey talk would be a breeze.

Would you believe that only today did I clue in on the Hebrew meaning of your and your brother's family name? I thought of it only as a modernized Gaelic version of the Clan Caomhánac, and now the word כונה/kavanah, as in intent / purpose / zeal. Not that I make much of this observation, as I'm not into gematria; just a funny coincidence.

4 January 2013 00:02  
Blogger John Magee said...

...

5 January 2013 04:14  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

¿¿¿

6 January 2013 03:44  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

6 January 2013 12:03  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Avi

I think that Kavanagh is the Anglicised version of the Irish Gaelic as you have noted above. Regarding the Hebrew version of the name, interesting that it means that isn't it? I couldn't possibly read anything into that though...

6 January 2013 12:08  

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