Friday, December 21, 2012

Waiting for the end of the world


The end has been coming since the beginning. From the moment in Genesis when God spoke creation into existence, we have been teleologically migrating through millennialism and millenarianism in eschatological hope and expectation. The Reign of God is immanent, and better times are ahead. Such beliefs invariably relate to times of crisis and tension, danger, distress and persecution. There is an apparent discrepancy betwen reality and expectation; moments when suffering, injustice, and the general ill-ordering of the world stridently yearns for catastrophic resolution.

The much-heralded Mayan apocalypse has failed to materialise: another day of doom passes with no perceptible challenge to the current order of greed and material deprivation; nationalism and social dislocation; religious and political persecution.

That the God of the churches has become more rational, more liberal and more indulgent is not a sign of the end. Change is not a sign of the end. Terror is not a sign of the end. But the preaching of revelation might inspire revolution. As Josephus reported: '..such men as deceived and deluded the people under pretence of divine inspiration, but were for procuring innovations and changes of the government; and these prevailed with the multitude to act like madmen, and went before them into the wilderness, as pretending that God would there show them the signals of liberty'.

The signs of salvation may induce madness, for the world is progressing to its appointed end. But the fascination with cultic zealotry and fringe crackpottiness draw a veil over the Judaeo-Christian revelation of the relationship between suffering and hope, sin and forgiveness, evil and love. Only when we look at our human suffering in cosmic terms, as part of a universal order of creation and destruction, is catastrophe dignified and our life endowed with meaning, and hence made bearable.

The end will come when it comes, and no man can know the day or the hour. We await a great bang, but it is more likely to be a whimper. For God did not come in a blaze of conquering glory: He was born as a baby and laid in a manger. God became man, and dwelt among us. And therein lies the revelation and eschatological hope of our salvation: therein is our revolution of love, joy, peace and patience.  

228 Comments:

Blogger gentlemind said...

Dare i say this is one of your best posts of late. You are a fine writer when you leave cynicism to one side and instead trust in love.

Merry christmas Cranmer. Merry christmas one and all. May the peace in your hearts surface and spread.

With a gentle heart, gentle voice and

gentlemind

21 December 2012 10:24  
Blogger Andy JS said...

My nomination for next year’s Nobel Prize for Fiction (if it existed):

http://vote-2012.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1250&page=3#47380

21 December 2012 10:37  
Blogger Flossie said...

Ever thought of becoming Archbishop of Canterbury, Your Grace? I don't hear this kind of thing from the present incumbent.

Seriously, thank you for a wonderful post.

Every blessing for Christmas, and may your light continue to shine in 2013.

21 December 2012 10:52  
Blogger The Gray Monk said...

Merry Christmas Your Grace. A good exposition on this obsession with 'End Times' and catastrophic apocalyptic "prophesies." I dare say someone from among the afflicted adherents will claim that their "re-enactment" of "Mayan Ritual" will soon pop up on the populist media to claim their "ritual" has appeased the "gods" and averted catastrophe ...

Now I eagerly await the next "prophecy"for the gullible to rush to worship.

In the meantime I shall continue enjoying life and giving thanks for it. As you say, when the end comes, it comes. It is not for us to know or to attempt to second guess.

21 December 2012 11:53  
Blogger Dr Robert Warde said...

only the Father knows the time or the place. so why should i be troubled i know my redeemer lives and i will stand in the last day.That is is why a baby was born in Bethlehem.

21 December 2012 12:04  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Wonderful post.

"The end has been coming since the beginning."

With God there is no end or beginning.

"Whatever is has already been,
and what will be has been before;"
(Ecclesiastes 3:15)

21 December 2012 13:27  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

All together now :

"It's not the end of the world as we know it.

It's not the end of the world as we know it.

It's the not end of the world as we know it and I feel fine."

21 December 2012 14:56  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

But David, how can you be so sure ....?

The world as I know changes with the passing of each day.

21 December 2012 15:08  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

21 December 2012 15:28  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Dodo,

Dunno mate. I am just a humble Joo.

21 December 2012 15:29  
Blogger Old Blue Eyes said...

So the end of the World hasn't happened. Guess I'll have to go look for a Christmas present for the wife after all.

21 December 2012 15:31  
Blogger John Magee said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

21 December 2012 15:52  
Blogger Kinderling said...

"God became man, and dwelt among us."

When you realize a Socrates born to the Romans, was over 400 years later born to the Jews, just as such few men are born to the West, then you can say god dwelt among us.

Until then, you won't see it, you won't hear it, you won't taste it; only remembering one Super Man in The Past, in submission and idolotry, so you won't have to remember yourself.

Dr Mike D. Carroll's discussion on how such Church Priests train populations to roll-over and become substandard in morals and dignity, while all say "God became man, and dwelt among us." in the pulpit.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/thinkingoutloudnow/2010/04/15/exclusive-interview-with-dr-michael-d-carroll

Teaching Santa Clause is not real, but the joy of giving is, has never been harder.

21 December 2012 15:57  
Blogger John Magee said...

Merry Christmas Your Grace and the same joyous wishes to all the good people who visit and very much appreciate your internet classroom of shared knowledge, opinons, complaints, an occasional bickering.

Another New Age fairy tale goes "down in flames". The planet earth survived another panic by dreamed up by those who have no faith in God and thrive on pagan. political, or radical environmental myths of gloom and doom hoping the world will end soon.

Our planet survived this Mayan Calendar joke last night just as those who believe in God and His Son Jesus (along with atheist's who take their faith from science alone) knew it would. Mother earth will continue spinning on her endless orbit taking all of us, if we are blessed, on another free trip around the sun in 2013.

Happy Christ's Mass to all Anglicans and Roman Catholic's.

A blessed Christmas to all Protestants.

Gloria in excelsis Deo!

21 December 2012 16:06  
Blogger Scrutable said...

If I may. I don't know why, but the post brought to mind the opening passage from the first book of Machabees. 

Now turn we to Alexander son of Philip, the Macedonian, that was the first to reign over all Greece. This Alexander marched out from his own land of Cethim, and overcame Darius, king of the Medes and Persians. Battles he waged a many; nor any fortress might hold out against him, nor any king escape with his life; and so he journeyed on to the world’s end, spoiling the nations everywhere; at his coming, silence fell on the earth. So great the power of him, so valiant his armies, what wonder if his heart grew proud? All those lands conquered, all those kings his tributaries! Then, all at once, he took to his bed, and the knowledge came to him he must die. Whereupon he summoned the noblest of his courtiers, men that had shared his own upbringing, and to these, while he had life in him yet, divided up his kingdom. So reigned Alexander for twelve years, and so died.

21 December 2012 16:17  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dodo

Merry Christmas.

You've often asked me to read Papal Encyclicals. In recent years because of my age and short attention span to long, detailed and esoteric subjects I'm only able to read summaries. Modern Papal Enclycials are always perfection and truth the world today does not want to hear in our age of total moral chaos.

Over the next few days please take time and read what Pope Benedict XVI recently wrote about the future of mankind at stake over Gay "marriage".

He said:

"In the fight for the family, the very notion of being – of what being human really means – is being called into question

The defence of the family, the Pope said, "is about man himself. And it becomes clear that when God is denied, human dignity also disappears."

On Monday, the Vatican's newspaper described laws on gay marriage as an attempt at a communist-like "utopia", a day after tens of thousands of demonstrators turned out in France to support legalising both marriages and adoption for gay couples.

The Pope spoke of the "falseness" of gender theories and cited at length France's chief Rabbi Gilles Bernheim, who has spoken out against gay marriage.

"Bernheim has shown in a very detailed and profoundly moving study that the attack we are currently experiencing on the true structure of the family, made up of father, mother, and child, goes much deeper," he said.

What do you think?

21 December 2012 16:24  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

No, Kinderling. 'god' is not an abstract manifestation of the wisdom of man breaking forth in glorious light. The Lord Jesus is not a philosopher. He is not a teacher. He made specific claims and taught as one with authority. Deal with Him honestly or do not deal with him at all. Do not try to shove Him into a materialist box simply because that is where you prefer to find Him.

carl

21 December 2012 16:29  
Blogger gentlemind said...

John Magee

The pope is trying to raise awareness of just how dangerous it is to try to order society according to a system that, ironically, is based purely on belief.
By means of the invention of Gender, the State has in effect started to construct a virtual world. A world where our bodies can be whatever we will them to be. This will be the legal world. And the legal world will make it illegal to live in the physical world ie illegal to have the physical reality of our bodies (and therefore our family relationships) recognised/protected in law.

This is the reason why marriage is being redefined. The definition is being "corrected" so that it accords with the State's belief: men and women do not physically exist.

21 December 2012 17:14  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...



His Grace.The end will come when it comes, and no man can know the day or the hour. We await a great bang, but it is more likely to be a whimper.

Don’t forget the civil war that is going to engulf Europe in around a 100 years time. One really can’t see Islam softening in that time, only hardening really, with the continuing collapse of Western morality spurring on their extremists. We have already seen how our home grown types are no better than the ones from Pakistan. A country that even the BBC now routinely calls ‘bloodstained’. By then, Islamists will have infiltrated our police force and security service, corruption will be rife and bombings routine. The latter being a direct result of the former. Plenty of big bangs there, and plenty of whimpers from the dying…

Interesting corollary with 5th century Rome. You’d think we’d learn by past experiences as recorded in history but no we never do. You’d have to have a leadership as intuitive as the Inspector. It is to our collective loss that you never will have.

If Islam does triumph in Europe, the secularists will also have won, of a sort. But one comforts himself with the knowledge that the godless infidel dogs, as the new regime will know them as, will get theirs before the Christian…





21 December 2012 17:31  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

John Magee

This is not the thread, so suffice it to say I fully agree with Pope Benedict. If you ever do get around to reading the Bible or Papal Encyclicals, you'll understand why.

It is no coincidence that it was announced yesterday that Pope Benedict XVI has put Paul VI on the path to sainthood.

Venerable Paul was Pope from 1963 until 1978. It was he who authored 'Humae Vitae' and affirmed Catholic doctrine about human sexuality - in all its forms.

21 December 2012 17:50  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Ps

The full transcript of the address is here and well worth a read.

www.news.va/en/news/pope-address-to-the-roman-curia

21 December 2012 19:00  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Carl: "The Lord Jesus is not a philosopher. He is not a teacher. He made specific claims and taught as one with authority. Deal with Him honestly or do not deal with him at all. Do not try to shove Him into a materialist box simply because that is where you prefer to find Him."

That's right, you have made him a fettish, the King Arthur, The Mardi, The Elijah, Who Will Return and vanquish all to be forced under one Devine Dictatorship.

Philosopher: 'When someone strikes you, turn the other cheek'. 'Forgive, seven times seventy times'.

Teacher: 'I am the living example of the way to discover the truth to find the life you had so longed for'. 'My yoke is light'.

Follow Jesus' path, for narrow is the gate and broad is the Church of England that it's followers will never enter.

Do you think Jesus' disciples who he sent out with nothing who were able to cure the sick and raise the dead, to freely give as as they had received; had the Martyred Body and Blood of Jesus nailed on The Cross to do it for them? Jesus was living at the time. They needed no Mecca, no Black Stone, they had nothing. That is the point.

How little you know, and how much fantasy of distraction you employ to justify yourself. Protestant-Catholic... who cares about these precious creeds! Nothing has it.

As simple, as being, a child again.

So I'll discuss Jesus' teachings with you anytime, but shut up with the dogma of a God you don't know and wear on your sleeve, praying openly like Pagans do, Who watches your every move, and has a Judgement Day of Hell-Fire set aside for those citizens who don't believe what the priestcraft of the Roman Empire told them to believe.

Give me a decent human being of any race or culture who lives in reality, than a Holy Fantacist. For the human being will not invite the pervert to tend the children, but the fantacist will call them "Reverend" and "Minister".

....And we're back in the UK.

21 December 2012 19:37  
Blogger Pedant said...

Surely you meant to say on the path to canonization?
And may I recommend this site if you are not already aware of it,
Humanreview.com

21 December 2012 19:39  
Blogger Pedant said...

I rather think you over-misspell fantasist. Which is oddly appropriate.
Did you not see where Jesus founded a Church? And did you not read how the apostles organized themselves to preach amd minister to the whole world?
A philosopher is one who loves and seeks after wisdom. Jesus is wisdom. As he is truth. Is this a hard saying for you? Do you make the mistake of regarding all mystery as fantasy?

21 December 2012 19:50  
Blogger len said...

When the enemy comes in like a flood it is time to make sure that 'your house' is built on the one true foundation... the' Rock.'..which is Christ...all else will be swept away.

Which of course is God`s original intention.John(the Baptist)spoke on a personal level what God`s plans are on a greater level

' He must become greater; I must become less.'(John 3:30)

When 'the end' eventually comes Christ will be restored to God`s original intention which is...

'And He is the Head of the Body, the Church; he is the beginning and the first born from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.'(Colossians 1:18)


'All things'are not (at the moment) under Christ`s authority(even elements in the church are against God`s prescribed order)but they eventually will be..God is working 'all things' to this purpose.

21 December 2012 20:00  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Pedant said...
"Surely you meant to say on the path to canonization?"

I did indeed, thank you.

"And may I recommend this site if you are not already aware of it,
Humanreview.com~"


Tried it and all I got was:

404. That’s an error.

21 December 2012 20:10  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Kinderling

OK. Let's discuss a few of Jesus' teachings.

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” John 6:37-40

Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” John 7:54-58

He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins." John 8:23-24

I know my Master's voice. I hear it and I follow it, and I will never follow another. You do not hear. You attempt to reduce everything He taught to an ethical system of thought, but that is not the essence of the Lord Jesus' ministry. He did not come preaching "Here is how you live an ethical life." He came preaching "Repent, for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand."

And, yes, I do believe He healed the sick, and raised the dead. God intervenes in human history. God is the source of discontinuity. Why should I reject it? Is anything too hard for God? Or is it simply a given in your mind that there is no God? Woe to the man born blind, for he will deny the existence of light simply because he cannot see it.

carl

21 December 2012 20:22  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Pendant: Did you not see where Jesus founded a Church?

No. I wasn't there. Were you?

I read a book, sure. But I've also read many earlier testaments about Jesus, those that the Dictactor ordered to be burned.

But there is a simple tip to know if you have been occupied; that is, taken over by spirit that prefers "Jesus-The-God" so you don't have to make yourself a free person. Have you seen a Homosexual repent? No. They only feel convicted by those around them. Change that, and she-he feels free. They know about worshipping Gods and vanity. That is not The Way.


"And did you not read how the apostles organized themselves to preach amd minister to the whole world?"

That self-appointed fraud Saul, called St Paul? His act no more than that of a Muslim submitting to the greater force? You let a person who say they "Believe" and that's it, so they enter your home? Jesus spoke to him? The Messiah who will only come on the Last Day? Gabriel spoke to Mohammad and Joseph Smith for goodness sake.

A philosopher is one who loves and seeks after wisdom. Jesus is wisdom.

You are like those who see a film star on the stage who sings and dances and you wonder how talent she was, forgetting about the years of discipline, learning, training and suffering it took to get there.

Do you know how Jesus got to where he got to? He did not manage his 'magic powers' as a baby.

"As he is truth. Is this a hard saying for you?

He perceived the truth. He taught the path - so you too would perceive the truth. Don't take that path, and you won't ever, ever perceive it. Sure, you can quote it, you can shout "IN JESUS' NAME" but you will have no power and no authority.

Do you make the mistake of regarding all mystery as fantasy?

There is no mystery. What mystery?
The truth is the light to see by, and it shines clearly. Did you not go to the link in my first post above and listen to Mike Carroll being interviewed? His heart shines a light that quickens mine. That is all that Jesus did so you will know one another and call each other friend.

21 December 2012 20:31  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Carl: "OK. Let's discuss a few of Jesus' teachings."

First and foremost, you have to listen to the book writers. They are the people you do business with.

for example, you don't discuss a child's problem with the mother and expect the child to gct better, you talk directly to the child. Likewise you listen to the heart of the writers and their wishes overlaid upon a Savior they thought would rid the world of sickness, disease and the evil that caused them.

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away..."

You see, these are not your word, you can't pimp them, for Jesus said 'do not worry what you will say or do for God will give you the words you need to say'.

Simple.

Now what's your problem about being a child?

And what's this about God Who is in the air, the water, the rocks, the life forms, Omnipotent and Omnipresent, that you can talk on His behalf?

'That, that Is'. It's a given. The Pagan, the Hindu, the Muslim are made of god. Love your neighbor. But if they jerk off on their sleeve about God... well, do to them what I'm doing to you.

21 December 2012 20:48  
Blogger John Magee said...

Inspector

If there is any real definition of the "end of the world" it is, from my perspective, the time when Islam and Islamic Law of Sharia is the dominant religion (cult) and guiding legal force on every continent on earth.

Even Antartica.

21 December 2012 20:59  
Blogger Pedant said...

Kinderling,
What testaments did you read that the Dictator ordered burned?

21 December 2012 21:20  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Pendant,

Burning of books follows persecution of Christians by Christians.

"After Constantine I converted to Christianity, it became the dominant religion in the Roman Empire. Already beginning under his reign, Christian heretics were persecuted; The most extreme case (as far as historians know) was the burning of Priscillian and six of his followers at the stake in 383.[2] In the view of many historians, the Constantinian shift turned Christianity from a persecuted into a persecuting religion.[3] Beginning in the late 4th century A.D. also the ancient pagan religions were actively suppressed."

Source: Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christian_thought_on_persecution_and_tolerance

I hope this inspires you to seek a more eclectic view of Jesus by reading their books.

21 December 2012 21:31  
Blogger John Magee said...

Jesus said this, Jesus said that, Jesus wants us to this. Bla bla bla. It's the same old argument over and over and over.

This is Christmas. Christ's Mass in the Medieval Church calendar.

Jesus asks us to love one another and forgive our enemies.This is what the babe born in the stable came to teach us.

Legalistic religion obsessed with rules, regulations, and Biblicl quotes and those who feel so strongly about non-essentials which destroy the simplicity of Jesus's teachings in the Gospels miss the meaning of the law because they concentrate on the letter of the law.

Not an original concept but it's still true and always will be.

Here is a quote from the NT for the religious legalistic types with their doctrinal positions emphasizing and a system of rules and regulations for achieving salvation and spiritual growth while at the same time pointing their holier than thou fingers at the rest of us "sinners":

Romans 14:1 "Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgement on disputable matters"

Religious legalists appear to be righteous and spiritual, but legalism fails to accomplish God’s purposes because it is an outward performance instead of an inward change.

21 December 2012 21:32  
Blogger Kinderling said...

And then the drunk enters the room: "Jesus said this, Jesus said that, Jesus wants us to this. Bla bla bla. It's the same old argument over and over and over."

The first love of Jesus is to find out everything he did, wherever the source.

Then he quotes Gandolf: "Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgement on disputable matters"

At least he knows hiding under mistletoe is also used to take what isn't theirs.

21 December 2012 21:54  
Blogger non mouse said...

Indeed, Your Grace: . . . He was born as a baby and laid in a manger. God became man, and dwelt among us. And therein lies the revelation and eschatological hope of our salvation: therein is our revolution of love, joy, peace and patience.

While the element of "Joy" can come to earth as a bitter pill, Mr. Parker and the residents of Newtown point us to the rest.

And so to the Revolution against the Anti-Christ.

___________________

Well said Mr. Magee, esp. @ 21:32.

21 December 2012 21:58  
Blogger Pedant said...

Dodo,

Oops, my fault. Humanum, not human.

http://www.humanumreview.com/

21 December 2012 22:52  
Blogger Pedant said...

Kinderling,

Yes but you didn't answer the question. What books, burned by the Dictator, did you read?

21 December 2012 22:54  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Pendant,

The Gospel of Thomas
The Infancy Gospel of Thomas
The Didache
The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene (fragments)

and many, well, even more wishful authors.

http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/noncanon.html

If you let the tares grow with the wheat, only then, will you discern.

21 December 2012 23:37  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

I say, John Magee, have you been visited by the Ghost of Christmas Past?

What is this "Legalistic religion obsessed with rules, regulations, and Biblicl quotes ... " of which you speak? These " ... non-essentials which destroy the simplicity of Jesus's teachings in the Gospels ... " that ... miss the meaning of the law because they concentrate on the letter of the law."?

How does one apply a simple message in a complex and fallen world? How can those charged with Shepherding God's people teach the Law loving without compromising on it?

How do they respond loving to a woman who wants an abortion because she is fearful for her family's economic future?

To a person attracted to the same sex who wants to express this physically?

To a young couple who want to live together to see if they're "suited" before making a commitment?

To a married couple who want approval for contraception?

To a woman who wants to join the Priesthood?

To a man who wants to divorce his wife, who he no longer loves, and wants to marry another?

Do these issues matter at all or is it just what's in their heart? Once they are "born again" is life and faith is simple?

So, whilst I agree " ... legalism fails to accomplish God’s purposes because it is an outward performance instead of an inward change", I'd add that an inward change without adherence to God's revealed Truth and obedience to the leadership offered by His Shepherds is just as bad.

The two go together in the journey that is our redemption.

21 December 2012 23:49  
Blogger len said...

Mr Magee,(21 December 2012 21:32)

Quite impressed with your post (had to check your name twice to confirm it was you!.

One of the problems with Christianity is not what Jesus said but what people thought He 'should have' said or what He' really' meant.
The Gospel is really simple a child could understand it without the 'help' of theologians..

Have a blessed Christmas.

22 December 2012 01:09  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

John Magee

See what I mean!

Anything goes if you subscribe to sola scriptura. The spirit of the Law allows for no application of the requirements of the Law. Perhaps you should clarify your position.

Are you really a faithful Roman Catholic?

22 December 2012 01:34  
Blogger Kinderling said...

John, I too would enjoy your answers to Dodo's questions of examples of Christians attending the Church pews today.

Enlighten him.

22 December 2012 01:46  
Blogger Pedant said...

Kinderling,


http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_autor_mouravieff.htm

http://www.scribd.com/doc/17043821/Hans-Jonas-Gnostic-Religion

http://da.scribd.com/doc/86467145/Science-Politics-and-Gnosticism

22 December 2012 02:04  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Actually, I like to hear len answer the questions too.

22 December 2012 02:19  
Blogger John Magee said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

22 December 2012 02:47  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

John Magee

We are all sinners and none of us know the full Truth. We're human and flawed.

Do have a read of the address of Pope Benedict that you quoted from earlier. I think you might find it inspiring. It addresses the issue of Christ calling His first disciples. It also discusses how we should approach dialogue with other faiths.

(www.news.va/en/news/pope-address-to-the-roman-curia)

We have been given an Apostolic Church for a reason. Don't be "loyal" - be "converted"!

22 December 2012 03:04  
Blogger John Magee said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

22 December 2012 03:10  
Blogger John Magee said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

22 December 2012 03:15  
Blogger John Magee said...

Kinderling

I'll try:

What I believe as a Catholic Christian and traditionalist is almost always in direct opposition with the values and lies of the vile modern secular culture all Christians have to exist in today.

What more can I possibly add that Dodo, non mouse, carl jacobs and many others, both Protestant and Catholic, haven't already articulated, from their individual points of view, so well about their Christian faith here? I can't equal all that.

Merry Christmas.

@Dodo

I'll read it. We are in the midst of a hudge snowstorm with high winds so I will be stuck in the house until my small town digs out hopefully by Sunday.

The things Pope Benedict XVI said about Gay "marriage" yesterday and it's meaning for our Western Civilization are truly a beacon of light in the secular darkness today. He is going to make the secular world VERY, VERY,VERY angry with him which means of course he said the truth and doesn't care what they think or do.

I hope like minded Anglicans and Protestants will join the Pope and he embraces them too in a show of Christian unity about this serious moral issue for all Christians and our Western Civilization.

Personally I think it's too late. Pandora's Box has been opened and the worst is yet to come. Conservatives Christians are going to be viciously attacked and mocked. We may find ourselves in the unthinkable position of being persecuted by our own governments over this Gay "marriage" issue, for legal reasons, in the near future. Of course that was the aim of the far left all along wasn't it?

PAX VOBISCUM

@len

TY. Have a Happy Christmas too.

22 December 2012 04:02  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dodo

Sometimes I AM visited by a ghost from my religious past. My father's Episcopalian (Anglican) ancestor's DNA surface in my mind from from time to time and cause my Protestant genes to become restless when I hear stupid stuff.

Common sense used to be an outstanding Protestant trait. It isn't any longer.

"Legalistic religion obsessed with rules, regulations, and Biblical quotes" applies across the board to Jews and all Christians as far as I am concerned.

One thing I have to be clear about.I believe in every word we read when we are alone or say in church in the Apostle's Creed about who Jesus Christ is and what He did for us.

Am I a faithful Catholic? I grade myself a failure because I am a sinner. I am, however, a LOYAL Catholic...

What say you?

22 December 2012 04:04  
Blogger Tony B said...

Flossie,

Perhaps you don't hear this kind of thing from Archbishop Rowan because you aren't listening.

Try his Christmas message.

http://churchofengland.org/media-centre/news/2012/12/in-the-beginning-was-the-word-archbishop-of-canterbury-encourages-reading-st-john%E2%80%99s-gospel-this-christmas-in-reflections-video.aspx

22 December 2012 08:17  
Blogger William said...

Great comments from Mr Magee. Thank you for sharing them. Ultimately it should all come back to Christ and whether we accept what He has done for us.

As Len said; the Gospel is so simple that a child can understand it. It describes God's solution to the problems of the world. We can all be part of the solution or not, but we should always remember that the solution is a man, not a religion.

May He bless all of His Grace's communicants with His love and peace and with a joyful Christmas.

Amen

22 December 2012 10:08  
Blogger Preacher said...

Good for you John Magee. An honest man & God loves honest men, "In whom there is no guile".
Personally I don't subscribe to all the traditions & customs associated with 'Christmas' but I wish & hope that all of us have a joy filled & happy, peaceful holiday.
Please remember that for many, the end of their World did come yesterday & many grieve & are saddened by their loss. Give them love, prayer & hope.

Finally to our patient & gracious host. Thank you for your all your work. Have a wonderful peaceful break & return to the fray, fresh & ready for the new year.

Blessings. Preacher.

22 December 2012 10:52  
Blogger Kinderling said...

William: "...we should always remember that the solution is a man, not a religion."

The solution "is a man" to emulate? For surely the Muslim does far better than any other in the world by best-emulating his Prophet.

And how can you compare yourself to whom you think is good, for you would then only be able to say "I grade myself a failure because I am a sinner."

Sincerity in belief is ten-a-penny. Submission to scriptual instruction...is in their billions.

Jesus' teachings are not a 'mind' game of believing more, not a 'heart' game of loving more, but the dropping all of efforts to pretend. Compare yourself to no one but yourself. Truth will be your light.

What in the world is of imagination, then give to imagination; what is real, then give to what is real.

So have a Happy Santafest and what is tagged on to it: a celebration that such a great and couragous man at one time, was born.

22 December 2012 11:17  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Dodo

Your questions

"How does one apply a simple message in a complex and fallen world? How can those charged with Shepherding God's people teach the Law loving without compromising on it?

How do they respond loving to a woman who wants an abortion because she is fearful for her family's economic future?

To a person attracted to the same sex who wants to express this physically?

To a young couple who want to live together to see if they're "suited" before making a commitment?

To a married couple who want approval for contraception?

To a woman who wants to join the Priesthood?

To a man who wants to divorce his wife, who he no longer loves, and wants to marry another?

Do these issues matter at all or is it just what's in their heart? Once they are "born again" is life and faith is simple?"



How does God do it? He loves them first and then gave them rules. Not the other way around

Phil

22 December 2012 12:53  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Phil,

In the Bible God started with Laws and then 2,000 years later with Love.

Do you mean the OT should come after the NT?

Have you just caught God out?

22 December 2012 13:03  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Phil

Yes, of course, ... that sounds wonderful and who could disagree? God loves us all.

Now, would you care to answer the questions?

22 December 2012 13:05  
Blogger William Lewis said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

22 December 2012 13:07  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Kinderling

Actually, following man's fall from Grace God showed His Love by making a promise to Adam.

22 December 2012 13:08  
Blogger William said...

Kinderling

"The solution "is a man" to emulate?"

To solution is God incarnate who is the way.

"Compare yourself to no one but yourself."

How can something/one be compared to itself?

"Truth will be your light."

Truth and light is to be found in a Him.

"So have a Happy Santafest and what is tagged on to it: a celebration that such a great and couragous man at one time, was born."

Thank you. You too.

PS

Dr Michael Green wrote an interesting book about the books that the early church did not include. I commend it to you. As an aside it is a rebuttal to "The Da Vinci Code", but it describes the Gnostics and their gospels.

22 December 2012 14:52  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Thank you William,

You've just got me my Christmas present of Dr Green's book.

On the mind of Jesus, I can't know the mind of anyone, except be inspired by them. Anyone who says you can, is a tall St Paul.

Dodo,
I study mankind's faultering rise to consciousness, ... And then it's gone again.

22 December 2012 15:25  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Kinderling said...

"Phil,

In the Bible God started with Laws and then 2,000 years later with Love.

Do you mean the OT should come after the NT?

Have you just caught God out?"

In the bible the laws always come after the love. Not the other way around.

E.g. 10 commandments after the exodus.

God tells us to build a relationship with people before talking to them about laws.

Phil

22 December 2012 15:32  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

William

Here's how Pope Benedict recently described it:

"I find that the essential elements of the process of evangelizing appear most eloquently in Saint John’s account of the calling of two of John the Baptist’s disciples, who become disciples of Jesus Christ (1:35-39).

First of all, we have the simple act of proclamation. John the Baptist points towards Jesus and says: “Behold the Lamb of God!” A similar act is recounted a few verses later. This time it is Andrew, who says to his brother Simon “We have found the Messiah” (1:41). The first and fundamental element is the straightforward proclamation, the kerygma, which draws its strength from the inner conviction of the one proclaiming.

In the account of the two disciples, the next stage is that of listening and following behind Jesus, which is not yet discipleship, but rather a holy curiosity, a movement of seeking. Both of them, after all, are seekers, men who live over and above everyday affairs in the expectation of God – in the expectation that he exists and will reveal himself. Stimulated by the proclamation, their seeking becomes concrete. They want to come to know better the man described as the Lamb of God by John the Baptist.

The third act is set in motion when Jesus turns round, approaches them and asks: “What do you seek?” They respond with a further question, which demonstrates the openness of their expectation, their readiness to take new steps. They ask: “Rabbi, where are you staying?” Jesus’ answer “Come and see!” is an invitation to walk with him and thereby to have their eyes opened with him.

The word of proclamation is effective in situations where man is listening in readiness for God to draw near, where man is inwardly searching and thus on the way towards the Lord. His heart is touched when Jesus turns towards him, and then his encounter with the proclamation becomes a holy curiosity to come to know Jesus better. As he walks with Jesus, he is led to the place where Jesus lives, to the community of the Church, which is his body. That means entering into the journeying community of catechumens, a community of both learning and living, in which our eyes are opened as we walk.

“Come and see!” This saying, addressed by Jesus to the two seeker-disciples, he also addresses to the seekers of today.


Rather wonderful, I hope you agree. He concludes:

"At the end of the year, we pray to the Lord that the Church, despite all her shortcomings, may be increasingly recognizable as his dwelling-place. We ask him to open our eyes ever wider as we make our way to his house, so that we can say ever more clearly, ever more convincingly: “we have found him for whom the whole world is waiting, Jesus Christ, the true Son of God and true man”.

With these sentiments, I wish you all from my heart a blessed Christmas and a happy New Year."


Amen to that.

22 December 2012 16:15  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

I did read a quip that asked if Nick Clegg and the Lib Dims were put in charge of the promise of the end of the world yesterday. lol.

22 December 2012 18:02  
Blogger William said...

And a blessed Christmas to you and yours my fine feathered friend. Just go easy on the champagne. You seem to be having a glass every time we see you these days!

22 December 2012 18:47  
Blogger len said...

Dodo' the Church' is not where Christ dwells[exclusively]
Christ is doing now what He did when He walked the Land of Israel.He will be amongst the poor the downtrodden the weak the helpless seeking the lost the broken hearted that He might reveal His Love for them if they will open their hearts to Him.

'The Church'especially the 'religious Church'would keep Christ as' a possession' exclusive to the Church but Christ would have none of that he would be[an is] out amongst His people.Christ is in the heart of every true believer and that is how He relates to this World at this present time.

2 Corinthians 6:16-17 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

22 December 2012 18:53  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

len.

'The Church'especially the 'religious Church'would keep Christ as' a possession' exclusive to the Church ...

Still trying to spread strife at Christmas with your poison, I see. Banging the individualist and theologically anarchistic drum.

You haven't understood one word of Benedict's address!

Do you have any idea of the combined Christian aid and effort directed at the poor and down-trodden by the organised Christian Churches you insult?

No, I thought not.

Catholicism, in particular, stresses the importance of charitable works and the expression of Love. However, you criticise this too.

Do you celebrate the arrival of Christ on December 25th?

22 December 2012 20:07  
Blogger Mr. Mcgranor said...

Horrible postmodern social commentary. These individuals have no religious beliefs; but they 'believe' in stuff like this.

22 December 2012 23:27  
Blogger Kinderling said...

1. Give woman a fish, and she will eat for one day.
2. Give her a fishing pole and she will eat for a month.
3. Give her her soul back, and she will make and distribute many fishing poles.

How many charities and churches get to point 3? Nah, smacks of Capitalism... we can't have people carrying around a loaded spirit can we, don't know what may happen?

23 December 2012 00:46  
Blogger Kinderling said...

China has a huge population addicted to gambling and 'waiting for the end of the world' events.

Why? Because under Socialism they are depressed. They would rather gamble with their lives on one sure bet that they will escape their hell on earth.

The indigenous British People, with the collusion of their churches, have been trained to roll over and die. For whomever dies for his neighbor, will receive great honor. The first will be last. Who needs an army, when there is nothing worth defending? China is the same as here... a politbureau of unelected pimps and whores no one to call them out.

JESUS HAS TO DIE. Look at the corpse, it's magic, look at the shroud, it's blessed, here's a bone, kiss the bone, here's some very, very old wood... Fetch the ball... Go on...

23 December 2012 01:04  
Blogger len said...

If all that Christians have to offer the World is 'charity' then we are the poorest of the poor.

The depiction of a corpse hanging on a Cross to me defines' religion'It is dead and cannot provide Life as God intended.The greatest negative in this World is the Cross.... the Greatest positive in this World is the Resurrection.

The Law(religion in the worst sense of the word) kills.... the Spirit gives Life.

Away with your Popes, your rosaries,your dead bones , your holy relics,your dead words from a dying man,keep them away from people ...consign them to the tomb.God does not want religion anywhere near HIS Saviour

Jesus said MY Words are Spirit and they are Life!.

Your religion has the stink of death about it.

23 December 2012 09:38  
Blogger len said...

Jesus died that we might have his Life.We can only have this by being One Spirit with Him.(Re-Born from above)We draw His life as a branch draws Life from the Vine.
The World ends(in a sense) to people on a daily basis when they pass away.. step into eternity... their final destination being decided by their decision to accept or deny Jesus Christ who is the ONLY Mediator between a Holy God and fallen man.

Being 'good' will not save you.. being 'religious'will not save you..only an acceptance of the Saviour who stood in YOUR place and accepted YOUR punishment for sins (big or little) is acceptable to a Holy and Righteous God.
Now is the time....

23 December 2012 10:23  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Len: "Jesus died that we might have his Life".

Jesus lived, so you may have your life back.

Len: "We can only have this by being One Spirit with Him.(Re-Born from above)"

We can only have this by being one spirit with him.(Re-Born from within)"

Len: "We draw His life as a branch draws Life from the Vine."

We suck off, or upon, no one. Life flows out of you like living water. (See how St Paul's words you quote are the opposite of Jesus'?)

Len: "The World ends(in a sense) to people on a daily basis when they pass away.. step into eternity... their final destination being decided by their decision to accept or deny Jesus Christ who is the ONLY Mediator between a Holy God and fallen man".

The harvest is plenty and the workers say their dead boss is the only one who can do the work of healing the sick in today's world. No wonder outside every church are drugs and prostitution while those inside are booking themselves a place to sunnier climes.

23 December 2012 14:43  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

My God len you really do have significant issues!

This is the season of ADVENT. We focus on the JOY of Our Saviour's coming birth and what His incarnation meant for mankind. And you are focussed on sin and evil - the doooom and glooom. It's people such as you who made this wonderful season illegal.

The liturgical calendar (yes structured and organised 'religion') of the Church gives balance and perspective to our worship and helps us reflect on the stages of Jesus' life.

I suggest you focus on HOPE at this time, get some balance in your life and stop trying to cause trouble between Christians.

Do have a peaceful, joyous and positive Christmas.

23 December 2012 15:13  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Being Len won’t save you either. For he does the devils work. Separating the faithful from their religion...

23 December 2012 18:38  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Inspector

He prowls about hissing and croaking in a vain attempt at this.
He can have no impact on those who are faith-full or on those being called by God.

23 December 2012 19:44  
Blogger len said...

Inspector I cannot separate anyone from their 'religion.'..only God can do that.If their religion hasn`t completely closed their mind.

Kinderling you seem somewhat confused?]
We die so we can have the same life back...the point of this being?.
Jesus said 'I am the vine you are the branches'.(a child could understand this)

Dodo you don`t see to be practising what you preach?.
the point I have made time and time again is that religion cannot change anyone .....you are a living example of that .You talk the talk (religiously)but cannot walk the walk.

23 December 2012 19:55  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Croak... Croak .... Croak

23 December 2012 20:47  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Here we go again..

goo goo, ga gaa..

23 December 2012 20:54  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Apologies, Sir.

Here's a song with the right Spirit.

Joy to the World , the Lord is come!
Let earth receive her King;
Let every heart prepare Him room,
And Heaven and nature sing,
And Heaven and nature sing,
And Heaven, and Heaven, and nature sing.

Joy to the World, the Saviour reigns!
Let men their songs employ;
While fields and floods, rocks, hills and plains
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat, repeat, the sounding joy.


Have a blessed and peaceful Christmas, Bishop Cranmer.

23 December 2012 21:12  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Len,

I do not know why you are being riddicled. You present as sincere in your Biblical Beliefs, as any Holy Book presents heaven and hell for the control of the dim-witted among them. It is called, "disarming them" from carrying weapons of words, of criticism.

This weapon, I would like you to get back, is your common sense.
"If you remain in me and my words remain in you..." not only do you acknowledge the discipline of Jesus whose path you have to follow, you also have to understand the teachings for them to be within you. "...ask whatever you wish," whatever you put your mind to, "... and it will be done for you."

To me, you are part of that Russian experiment discussed in the book "The Master and His Emissary" by Iain McGilchrist. Patients had each brain hemisphere inactivated separately and at different times and were given a series of false syllogisms.

The following is my example of a false syllogism.

1. Jehovah is a Jealous God.
2. Jesus is God.
3. Jesus is Jealous.

A baby grew to wake up, and sent out a terrible sword to split the world from the bondage of Master/Slave relationships. That is what is celebrated. And all Socialist and Fascist Governments and Priests hate it.

23 December 2012 22:38  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Kinderling. The Inspector will let you in on a secret he’s been harbouring for over a year. He has absolutely no idea where you stand on anything. Remember this, if you are of high intellect, it is so much nothing if you cannot get your message across to simple men like yours truly...

Are you mocking Len or validating him ?



23 December 2012 23:28  
Blogger Kinderling said...

OiG,

If you take away from Christianity what is scientifically rubbish, you have a man who said he soley came to save his people from their unsanity.

Orthodox Judaism caused and still causes mental illness. Jesus proved a most excellent psychologist and healer.

Is he needed now? More than ever. We have a host of Orthodox religions and Socialisms, and especially for the Christians who have never read their bible for themselves to discovered Jesus' teaching as setting individuals free. For Christians, Jesus is read-to-them and portrayed as a 'good man' or a 'God of Miracles'.

You see, god is everywhere and given every name under the sun and stars. What is missing, Jesus told them, is loving your neighbor as yourself.

And when you actually dare to name your G_d, that is when... at that point of submission... you have then made yourself His Slave. The Tao, Shiva, Allah, Jehovah, Beelzebub or Lucifer etc. You have authority to name the animals.


And then others will enter and claim the Name of your God too, and they will fight you for it and gain mastery over you.

If a God really could reveal anything to you, you would not have come and borrowed the same message Jesus gave to the Jews.

You've got a problem. A big problem. And that is what led you to him.

The only antidote, to your hiding in comfort, secure in a pretend life of "knowing" your God, His Son and even His Will, (while going over and over the pitifully scant information in texts); is to command you to love your neighbor as yourself.

But even in this, you can enact false love as well. Rather than a command not to hate you turn it into a proactive giving to the poor for a slot in Heaven without ever living and seeing the poor as people, being behind a soup kitchen ladle, your child neglected in front of the TV set, and inviting people who claim their belief in a Black Stone sent by God are equals in values and morality. You are blind to god, and blind to mankind.

So this relationship of Master/Slave you enjoyed, of you being so lowely but Saved, that the guilt-pleasure makes a new home in you, becomes second nature, and the church a school for repression and bearing the fruit of perversion. A head of society is born, and you follow.

Call no man teacher.

However, if god is within you, you receive your inheritance. Your yoke is light. The kingdom is yours.

Did you not know the first disciples were called "Followers of The Way" and it was only when they turned Jesus into an idol they became despised "Christians" or as I would prefer as "Plastic Paul's People".

I thought I was clear on this subject. My appologies.

As for Len, I perceive him as genuine, but misguided, and like most Christians probably suffers from repressed sexual thoughts. The homosexuals who come here are only phishing because there is bait to be had. If Jesus teachings were here, they would be gone like a flash. They see your weakness, because your life is only based on faith to escape from pain like theirs. Common Sense need no such walls.

24 December 2012 00:57  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Typo error: You have authority to only name the animals

24 December 2012 01:00  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

24 December 2012 01:20  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Kinderling said

"Orthodox Judaism caused and still causes mental illness. "

Utter cock old chap. Utter cock.

24 December 2012 01:21  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Kinderling said, "Orthodox Judaism caused and still causes mental illness."

Now you tell me. After spending over eighty bucks on a measly piece of kosher brisket, when I could have spent half on double the amount of treifeh, but real steak.


24 December 2012 01:28  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Ah, Just in case Kinderling or Mr Barzel was unsure, 'utter cock' is quite an old fashioned and strong british insult. Don't google it though, because you might get a webpage that leads to something else.

24 December 2012 01:37  
Blogger Kinderling said...

No, it's not British to curse and swear.

I refer to St Paul and any such Orthodox Believer.

24 December 2012 02:06  
Blogger Kinderling said...

"Rabbinical ruling causes havoc on elevators"

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9c3_1257279065

24 December 2012 02:10  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Have no fear, Lord Lavendon, this barmy old Orthodox Yid knows the difference between cock, cock and cock. Incidentally, Jamaican restaurants here serve cock soup, having ratained one of the older meanings of the word for chicken ... not to be confused with "mannish water soup," which is made from, er, a male goat's member. Perhaps this Sabbath I'll shock my family and guests by announcing that we are having roast cock with potatoes. Or perhaps not. I think that the Kinderling boy may be right; I am utterly bonkers.

24 December 2012 02:16  
Blogger Kinderling said...

You see,

If someone had said on radio "all men are idiots" I would have nodded and said, "yeah, we are pretty stupid at times".

If someone had said on radio "all women are idiots" most would want to go and burn the radio station down.

So what I got were two female spirits. No discernment, and no use to themselves or others. When there was food on the table they could not eat.

24 December 2012 02:18  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Avi

I think that the Kinderling boy may be right

Naaah. It's the salted sardines. I told you that you should stop. Now look where it's got you. Agreeing with Kinderling.

carl

24 December 2012 03:10  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

It's shmaltz herring, Carl, herring. Sardines are for bait. And this Saturday I had my fill at a to-do, although the scotch went before my fourth shot and then we had to make do with Grey Goose. Ugh, I don't like vodka. Anyway, I agreed with Kinderling mainly because I don't have the foggiest of what he's going on about and unlike the Inspector, I'm afraid to ask.

24 December 2012 03:57  
Blogger len said...

Kinderling ,

I would prefer if you actually spoke in terms everyone[myself included] can understand?.

I am plain speaking and if you are insulting me please do it properly!.


I can only conclude from your comments that have you been borrowing Dodo`s book on [amateur]psychology...?

24 December 2012 07:46  
Blogger IanCad said...

Avi @ 01:28

Very funny come-back.
A good start to what is shaping up as a very stressful day.

24 December 2012 08:39  
Blogger Kinderling said...

"...they divided his clothes among the four of them. They also took his robe, but it was seamless..."

24 December 2012 10:06  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Kinderling at 00:57

The Inspector thanks you for insight into your being, as one is sure others do as well.

God’s ultimate message to us all is basically to get on with one another, and to live our lives according to the teachings of Christ. We can all aspire to that, but all but a handful of us will fail due to our fallibilities as humans. Nothing to be ashamed of. If God wanted better of us, he’d have upped our IQ by 20 points, but he didn’t, did he.

You yourself set a high standard Kinderling, and you will go through your life in disappointment of others. That is not to say that this man doesn’t do the same, but he can sleep at night knowing that that is their problem, not his. Indeed, all their unhappiness springs from themselves and their inability to trust to God as this man does.
One cannot put a value on how that feels. The security it gives. The peace that results.

24 December 2012 11:24  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

len

As our good host has indicated his disapproval of childish exchanges, I shall merely say in response to your latest comment: "Yah, boo, sucks".

Now off down the High Street with you.

Enjoy Christmas.

24 December 2012 12:00  
Blogger len said...

Have a good Christmas Dodo.

24 December 2012 13:38  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Thank you len; you too.

24 December 2012 14:33  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Oig: "God’s ultimate message to us all..."

Jesus' message, not God's, ..."is basically to get on with one another"

"You yourself set a high standard Kinderling..."Oh, that lill' old thing of the narrow way... to hold love and truth in balance.

Hah, how can truth be a high standard? Hah, how can love be a high standard?

Do you have some half-truths to live by, some induglent seedy love making you're not telling about?

A compromised life for a compromised people? These are Christ's Disciples?

"...and you will go through your life in disappointment of others." Or else try to protect the children, who are already perfect and tend to the soil for them, until they can do it themselves.

I can assure you, it is a joy.


"That is not to say that this man doesn’t do the same, but he can sleep at night knowing that that is their problem, not his."

And yet, if avoided and "good men to nothing" they will aways turn up on you doorstep refusing to take your daughter.

"Indeed, all their unhappiness springs from themselves and their inability to trust to God as this man does."

You trust your God. The God of OiG. One Servant to his conscience. Exactly just how you were made. Can.. can... can I go and try and help those who are broken?

One cannot put a value on how that feels. The security it gives. The peace that results.

Oh, oooooh... not the God of OiG but the blanket of God-Jesus. Just as there are those who follow the blanket God of Moses or the blanket God of Mohammad (pbuh)

Forgive me, there are fields that need tending...

24 December 2012 15:07  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Kinderling

I don't know if you have ever read Faulkner, but your posts often remind me of Faulkner's 'stream of consciousness' writing - scattered bits and pieces of the English language that somehow connect in the mind of the author but nowhere else. You write in riddles and hide in enigmas. Every once in a while I think I understand some small piece and then two posts later I discover I am still completely lost. I am sure you think it profound but most of us haven't the slightest idea what you are trying to say.

carl

24 December 2012 15:41  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Such writing is not meant to be understood; it is an interior discussion 'revealing' the conflicts of the speaker in codes that only he can attempt to grasp - the rational and the creative in disharmony.

In truth, I doubt Kinderling comprehends what he writes.

24 December 2012 15:58  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Kinderling. No, you are not coming through old chap. You’ve gone off the scale again. Carl has it about right you know. What you are giving us is the thought process in working before it is converted into an understandable medium and syntax, to wit, English. So the Inspectors earlier observation must stand. An intellect is so much nothing if it cannot transmit...

Toodle pip !

24 December 2012 16:03  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Ah, there you are Dodo. You’ve appeared at the right time :->

One was thinking, if you prefix or suffix “...And submit yourself to the will of Allah...” to our mans writings, do they make a little more sense.

And are his own questions, which he himself half answers, not unlike what would be heard at the mosque ?

24 December 2012 16:10  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Kinderling: "You trust your God. The God of OiG. One Servant to his conscience. Exactly just how you were made."

OiG: "One was thinking, if you prefix or suffix “...And submit yourself to the will of Allah...” to our mans writings, do they make a little more sense."

The God Of Mohammad (pbup)? You though I was talking about you being able to worship the God of Mohammad (pbup)? You, never having met the bandit, maybe only having read bits of the Koran, and you think I thought another human being could try to pretend to emulate someone else, to believe they knew what is in another's head and serve that god?!!!!!!

Where in hell's kingdom did you ever get such an idea? To actually think it could be possible!

24 December 2012 17:38  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


I say Kinderling, you seem rather upset. No offence meant old man, do settle down now. Think we’ll best leave it there...

Good evening to you Sir. {AHEM}

24 December 2012 17:58  
Blogger Kinderling said...

No, no offence at all, OiG.

You have intelligently drawn out all the issues.

I am sitting with my son who is playing Xbox with a child I rescued from 'being raised by a village,' wrapped the last present, prepared the ingredients for the roast lamb tomorrow, and her in doors has gone to bed to go to her Catholic Church tomorrow.

My point was, we cannot know a person by their god-worship; only by their fruit. I can't follow your god, and I won't let anyone follow mine... you have to find the truth for yourself. You push people back onto themselves. Otherwise this is priestcraft, and that is why I called it "hell's kingdom"

Have a Happy Christmas, and maybe one day we'll also have a toast on St Socrates' Day.

24 December 2012 19:59  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

I have to agree, can't understand Kinderling. And if the 'wise men' of this blog can't either then I don't think any one can.

24 December 2012 20:23  
Blogger Olive Jones said...

"At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do." Luke 10:21

Jesus would have understood exactly what this person is saying.

24 December 2012 22:45  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Well of course He would - I mean, He was rather unique amongst men being God incarnate.

The point is we humble mortals do not possess Divine powers, well most of us don't, and the gifts of the Spirit are not evenly distributed.

Supposing Kinderling wants to be understood (an esoteric gnostic philosopher, probably via Islam?) then surely he must learn to use the written word to enlighten us?

Jesus spoke clearly at His great open air sermons; He also spoke in parables and allegories we can at least follow even if we cannot fathom them. What we don't understand we look to the Holy Spirit to guide us.

Without this, Kinderling's internal dialogue remains just that. A private talk with himself from which we are excluded.

25 December 2012 01:17  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Ps

Are you claiming you understand him?

25 December 2012 01:19  
Blogger Olive Jones said...

Hi Dodo,

There is nothing different between what Kinderling is saying than what Jesus said. The only difference is about 2000 years and a different culture.

"Jesus spoke clearly at His great open air sermons; He also spoke in parables and allegories we can at least follow even if we cannot fathom them. What we don't understand we look to the Holy Spirit to guide us."

There are many who were puzzled by Jesus' words, a learned man named Nicodemus, for one. Jesus seemed to be always amazed that people could not understand his observances, which seemed to him to be so obvious. He spoke words of spirit, not pedantry.

You don't need to have divine powers to understand what Kinderling is saying. You just have to spend 40 days and 40 nights in the wilderness.

So to answer your question, Dodo, yes, I understand what he is saying.

Have a wonderful Christmas.

25 December 2012 05:01  
Blogger len said...

Jesus spoke in parables so that people could understand spiritual truths 'likening' spiritual realities with material facts.

There would not be much point in using a language and terms no -one understood|?.

25 December 2012 10:33  
Blogger Olive Jones said...

Hi Len,

If people really understood Jesus, they would be able to understand what Kinderling is saying. In fact, if they really understood Jesus, there would not be a religion called "Christianity."

What exactly don't you understand? It seems simple to me. You either agree or disagree. You either see it or you don't.

Anyway, have a blessed day. Today, and every day.

25 December 2012 12:56  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Olive

Tell me, do you believe Jesus of Nazareth was the One True God, made flesh, just the once? Or was He was another Spiritual leader amongst many before Him and after bringing a hidden 'message' for those of us with human insight to fathom?

25 December 2012 14:16  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Olive

If people really understood Jesus, they would be able to understand what Kinderling is saying.

Well then, perhaps you could enlighten those benighted souls among us who haven't got the first clue. I cannot count the times I have struggled through multiple readings of one of Kinderling's posts, and thought to ask him if English was his first language. So if you can act as a Kinderling-to-English translator, then be my guest. Unless of course this is some sort of esoteric nonsense like "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" I have no patience for that.

In the meantime, I will continue to assert that words have meaning, and that meanings can be understood. I will stand upon the knowledge that God has made Himself known, and that men can communicate that knowledge of God to other men with sufficiency. I will maintain that Truth is found external to man and not in some hopeless quest within. The fool looks within himself to find God. He will find nothing within himself but ... himself. And yet he will declare that which he finds to be 'god.' Little 'g' of course.

carl

25 December 2012 15:02  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

The lock upon my garden gate's a snail, that's what it is.
The lock upon my garden gate's a snail, that's what it is.
First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is.
First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is.
The caterpillar sheds his skin to find a butterfly within.
Caterpillar sheds his skin to find a butterfly within.
First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is.
First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain.
Oh Wanita, oh Wanita, oh Wanita, I call your name.
Oh, the snow will be a blinding sight to see as it lies on yonder hillside.

Donovan leitch – There is a mountain

25 December 2012 15:21  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Inspector, a Donovan fan, obviously, one who knows these lyrics by heart, otherwise you would have spelled the name Juanita. Lyrics and a cool video of Donovan at his best at:

http://batlyrics.com/there_is_a_mountain-lyrics-donovan_leitch.html

Just remember, the young ladies, including the foxy red-head in the purple Indian shirt at 2:54 are all grandmas ny now.

25 December 2012 15:54  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

There you are Avi. As you, the Inspector and Carl are all the same age, one thought he would remind us all of an example of esoteric from our childhoods. Reviewing the man from all this time after, it would be easy to say he too had a message for mankind, but alas unlikely. Remembering those young ladies sitting crossed legged in front of him as he strummed away, he was more likely intent on getting inside said things pants, as young men are won’t to do...

Histories of ages past
Unenlightened shadows cast
Down through all eternity
The crying of humanity.

25 December 2012 16:01  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Olive,

If left to the Kinderling dervish,
With his prattle in antiquated Moorish,
My kind would've had it easy....
For you'd all be Jewish.

Happy holidays!

25 December 2012 16:05  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

OIG

I preferred Universal Soldier myself. Which is strange given that the song is a whiny utopian protest song. I don't know why, but I like whiny utopian protest songs. '99 Luftballons' is one of my favorites.

I however would have posted Dylan: "Lily, Rosemary, and the Jack of Hearts" as an example of the song never explained. People still fight over the meaning of that song.

carl

25 December 2012 16:16  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Good point on the deep meanings of those songs of yester-year Inspector. A friend of mine once met Don Maclean and asked him about the meaning of American Pie. He was told that all he did was to put nonsensical words together as long as they sounded mysterious, cool and rhymed well.

Carl, that's the thing; the flakey peacenik songs were the best. O, thanks for a song I loved, but forgot about over the years; the German version of 99 Balloons...Nein und neinzig luftbalonen (sp?) is better, I think. Universal Soldier was written by a Canadian, Buffy St Marie. Joni Mitchell's One Tin Soldier and of course, Neil Young's (another Canuck) Ohio (what's with the "tin soldier" theme?) are also top-notch, methinks.

25 December 2012 16:33  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Ah, the good old 60s protest song. Didn’t have time for them then, still don’t. Would have a fellow quickly leaving the room you know. Fingers in his ears too if it was Dylan...

Was an old reactionary even then, albeit in short trousers...

25 December 2012 16:36  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

“El Presidente, we have captured Che Guevara. What would you have us do with him, Excellency ?”

”Keel heem !”

“But senor, the protest songs, they are bad enough as it is !”

25 December 2012 16:43  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

My German is not the best but I think Kinderling is German for Child on a journey or alternatively modeling themselves as a child

It is like the Times Crossword totally incomprehensible

Phil



25 December 2012 17:02  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Olive perhaps you can enlighten us?

Phil

25 December 2012 17:04  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Avi

Universal Soldier was written by a Canadian, Buffy St Marie.

It was, but I will always associate it with Donovan. I didn't find out about Buffy St Marie until years later when I was searching for the song on the Internet.

Kent State is almost the exception to the rule. It was a colossal failure of military leadership to shoot into a crowd like that. A colossal failure to put untrained unprepared guardsmen into that situation. Heads should have rolled. And yet there is a visceral part of me that exists in a dark place I don't like to think about that says "The only problem is that they shot the wrong people." Those protesters didn't care a damn about the GIs in Vietnam.

It is a morally wrong reaction, of course. Kent State was murder. But my reaction is very real I assure you. I react to 'Ohio' as the war anthem of the Anti-Vietnam War protest movement. It might as well be the National Anthem of NVN. Those protesters were the enemy, and I view them with cold and heartless eyes.

carl

25 December 2012 17:12  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Yeah, Kent State was a big and nasty eff-up and probably led to the growth of the anti-war movement and loss of spine in the government, but handling demonstrations and crowd control and not over-reacting took a while to develop. Me, who came with his parents after the Prague Spring when Dad was nearly arrested once Rusians and commies took control, I was shocked to see that the cool kids here knew nothing about it. The only one in my school who knew anything about the event was a long-haired "mature student" who calmly informed me that my parents are counter-revolutionary traitors to world socialism and the heroic Soviet Army which saved Czechoslovakia. It was one of those spluttering, don't-know-where-to-begin moments for me. Especially since my English was still pretty lousy.

25 December 2012 17:29  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Avi

The only one in my school who knew anything about the event was a long-haired "mature student" who calmly informed me that my parents are counter-revolutionary traitors to world socialism and the heroic Soviet Army which saved Czechoslovakia.

Children playing pretend games of pretend revolution, and too stupid to know that come the real revolution they would all be shot.

carl

25 December 2012 17:48  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Sorry Olive,

I do not understand Kinderling. Perhaps she writes in a code? Do we need to read the posts backwards to understand?

25 December 2012 19:34  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Hi David,

Read it backwards:

“OiG,

If you take away from Christianity what is scientifically rubbish, you have a man who said he soley came to save his people from their unsanity.

Orthodox Judaism caused and still causes mental illness. Jesus proved a most excellent psychologist and healer.

Is he needed now? More than ever. We have a host of Orthodox religions and Socialisms, and especially for the Christians who have never read their bible for themselves to discovered Jesus’ teaching as setting individuals free. For Christians, Jesus is read-to-them and portrayed as a ‘good man’ or a ‘God of Miracles’.

You see, god is everywhere and given every name under the sun and stars. What is missing, Jesus told them, is loving your neighbor as yourself.

And when you actually dare to name your G_d, that is when… at that point of submission… you have then made yourself His Slave. The Tao, Shiva, Allah, Jehovah, Beelzebub or Lucifer etc. You have authority to only name the animals.

And then others will enter and claim the Name of your God too, and they will fight you for it and gain mastery over you.

If a God really could reveal anything to you, you would not have come and borrowed the same message Jesus gave to the Jews.

You’ve got a problem. A big problem. And that is what led you to him.

The only antidote, to your hiding in comfort, secure in a pretend life of “knowing” your God, His Son and even His Will, (while going over and over the pitifully scant information in texts); is to command you to love your neighbor as yourself.

But even in this, you can enact false love as well. Rather than a command not to hate you turn it into a proactive giving to the poor for a slot in Heaven without ever living and seeing the poor as people, being behind a soup kitchen ladle, your child neglected in front of the TV set, and inviting people who claim their belief in a Black Stone sent by God are equals in values and morality. You are blind to god, and blind to mankind.

So this relationship of Master/Slave you enjoyed, of you being so lowely but Saved, that the guilt-pleasure makes a new home in you, becomes second nature, and the church a school for repression and bearing the fruit of perversion. A head of society is born, and you follow.

Call no man teacher.

However, if god is within you, you receive your inheritance. Your yoke is light. The kingdom is yours.

Did you not know the first disciples were called “Followers of The Way” and it was only when they turned Jesus into an idol they became despised “Christians” or as I would prefer as “Plastic Paul’s People”.

I thought I was clear on this subject. My appologies."


In old days religion was known as the Followers of the “God of Moses”, “The God of Jesus”, “The God of Mohammad,” but Jesus taught you served only your own god.

If a follower of Mohammad tried to twist and murder your children’s souls in a shopping mall, everyone there would be able to defend themselves.

Jesus did not say “You must love the LORD The God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.”

He said “You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.”

You are only servant to your conscience. If the voice in your head says “make everyone submit to your beliefs and hate everyone who does not in the Name of God” go see a doctor… but not a Socialist one. For she will say it is your nature and a right to impose upon any child exiting the womb.

25 December 2012 21:24  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Kinderling

I'm not too sure why you are quoting 'Jezus' at me, given that I'm not a Christian.

Still less why you think Orthodox Judaism is a mental illness.

And I'm mystified as to why you think I might be hearing voices in my head or specifically a voice which would say to me “make everyone submit to your beliefs and hate everyone who does not in the Name of G-d”.

Quite spooky.

25 December 2012 21:58  
Blogger Kinderling said...

David: I'm not too sure why you are quoting 'Jezus' at me, given that I'm not a Christian.

David, you are a example of the average person: 'your head in in the box' That is the TV is on, and your mind is in the program. Hypnosis.

You lack the skills to be objective. You read my posts, wondered how to understand them, and then thought they were personal to you.

This is how clairvoyants get your number.

This could have moved further to the question: is Mohammad's God the same as Jesus,' the same as Moses'?

The obvious answer is they are not, as you can see by their individual slightly-altering-the-dogma adherents. But, "intellectuals", (the definition of an inadequate person needing status), will argue all Gods are equal by Law, and it is hate speech to criticize them.

The Democrats used the Klu Klux Clan to wear white sheets to scare slaves to keep their 'Diversity' (Apartheid) alive, and were spooked.

What do I see?

25 December 2012 23:12  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Kinderling

God did gave us His name through Moses and also revealed His nature.

I AM that I AM; or

I Will Be What I Will Be

25 December 2012 23:28  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Oh Dodo,

"God did gave us His name through Moses and also revealed His nature."

God has been changing his nature for every tyrant that ever lived and ever will.

"I AM that I AM"

The Jews spawned a Master Race of Chosen People, and as cruelty is contageous thoughout mankind, it was later infused into the Roman Christians and later still into the Muslims who, in their Master-Race-ego opportunities, committed mass genocides for booty against heathen in the Name of God.

'My Precious'. (apologies to J. R. R. Tolkien)

Jesus used it back on them.

"I AM that I AM"

That made them crazy.

Why?

Because Jesus had found the essence of man, for 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'

Why can't you have that relationship? Ah yes, God is a Person who Punishes you for not obeying Him. "Kneel at the Foot of the Cross, Kneel...."

"I AM that I AM" therefore can only mean "Equal to God"!!!

Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— "

To whom the word of God came are "gods"?

what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

Are you set aside? Have you woken up to what you are? Is Adam God's Son? You may be a product of hypnosis from your parent's parent's parents' parent's culture and religion, but you have a remarkable engineering and a lifelong potential.

Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

Nah, don't believe in yourself. Jesus' work to set you free, to live like him, not possible... you have made him a liar.

Here, let me swash some 15 billion year old star dust from your shoulders, that may have even come before time, and lets put legends and demons to rest.

26 December 2012 02:24  
Blogger Olive Jones said...

@carl,

"Well then, perhaps you could enlighten those benighted souls among us who haven't got the first clue."

I can't enlighten any benighted souls. I can tell you what I see and experience, that is all. I usually understand what Kinderling is saying. Give me an example, and maybe in my own words I can tell you what I understand, unless you judge my words esoteric nonsense also. Then there is no use in continuing an exchange.

"I will stand upon the knowledge that God has made Himself known, ... "

How has he made himself known to you, personally? Or how did you deduce that He, named Jehovah, God of the Hebrews, is the creator of all that is? How do you know, how can you be sure, that your whole God/Christianity belief is not some evolved psychological form of comfort or protection that has blinded you (and much of humanity) from acknowledging the truth ... which is, none of us reallys KNOWS, if we are honest. We just sort of ... hope. Have "faith." Believe without seeing. Which I will never do again, in life.

Were you born into your religion and God-belief, did your family and culture support/enforce it, and did you conform? Or did you rebel, as I did, against the emptiness of nominal, shallow Christianity and become a True Believer, only to eventually find out with joy that I had everything I needed inside of me, all along (like Dorothy's ruby slippers)?

How many "saviors" (Mithra among many) have been born of a "virgin," and yet yours is the One? How many learned scholars (Bart Ehrman and Archarya S among them) have explored the writings of the New Testament and found them lacking? How much have we anthropomorphized "God" through the ages to be what we needed him to be, according to our times and cultures? I thought "God" had made himself known to me. But then I found the Truth that I did not know Him/Her/It/Them, and that really, nobody else "knows," either, if they are completely honest. How can a human mind wrap itself around the concept of God, if you really really think about it? Just forming a thought about Him/Her/It/Them seems to be blasphemy to me sometimes.

I will maintain that Truth is found external to man and not in some hopeless quest within.

And I have experienced that the Truth is found Within, by objectively observing that which is without. If I cannot trust myself first and foremost, to sift and proof, discard and keep, and test with time, who can I trust? How can I know? I am shipwrecked if I don't believe that Truth begins with me.

"The fool looks within himself to find God. He will find nothing within himself but ... himself."

How wonderful to find nothing but yourself! Most people have alot of other junk in there that needs to be dealt with that is hijacking sacred space. After almost 30 years of reaching without, I finally looked within, and found the Fountain of Life. Why do I need to look for a "God without" after finding such a treasure?

@Dodo,

"Tell me, do you believe Jesus of Nazareth was the One True God, made flesh, just the once?

As I have admitted above, I do not know this "One True God." Can you introduce me? :)

26 December 2012 03:44  
Blogger John Magee said...

...

26 December 2012 04:12  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

One wonders if Olive Jones is a minister in the CoE with an eye to a bishopric..

heh heh !

26 December 2012 08:49  
Blogger len said...



Can we come to an intellectual understanding and belief in God?.I do not think so.Anyone can join' a religion'but one cannot join the body of Christ one must be born into it.

God reveals Himself to men through Jesus Christ by the holy Spirit.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day"(John 6:44).

A mere mental assent to the Gospel does not make one a 'Christian'(whatever that means)there has to be a profound spiritual change which cannot happen without one being aware of it.
I believe there is a moment when one' meets'the Saviour and the religion which is ABOUT Christ becomes the reality which IS Christ.This encounter when the Father reveals His Son is only given by God it cannot be 'manufactured'or reproduced.

26 December 2012 09:03  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Ignore the idiot Len. All you need to become a Christian is to believe in God and accept the teachings of his son, Jesus, our redeemer. See, not difficult at all. No vision of light, no minor miracles, no smoke and mirrors or pulleys and levers. No one like Len saying “No, that’s not good enough, you are not worthy”.

So, no ‘moments where you meet your saviour’, ‘no spiritual change’ just acceptance of what is...

Right then, over to you Len, you caustic unforgiving small minded finger pointing nuisance...


26 December 2012 09:28  
Blogger Olive Jones said...

@len

Can we come to an intellectual understanding and belief in God?.I do not think so.Anyone can join' a religion'but one cannot join the body of Christ one must be born into it.

Len, Jesus told Nicodemus that you must be born again. I had the "born again" experience. I asked Jesus "into my heart." What I didn't understand back then was that I received the revelation that I was not bound or defined by my family, my culture, my ethnicity, my race, my gender ... that I was free to be who I wanted to be. I saw the hypocrisy of family and culture all around me, and Jesus did too. So in that way, reading about him set me free. But then it came with alot of "Christian" baggage and vampires who smelled an acolyte.

@OIG

"All you need to become a Christian is to believe in God and accept the teachings of his son, Jesus, our redeemer."

...

"So, no ‘moments where you meet your saviour’, ‘no spiritual change’ just acceptance of what is..."

No spiritual change! Yeah, I guess that's pretty obvious looking atmost X-tians ... How dead! You make the Religion of Peace sound much more vibrant. So if I say I believe in God and accept the teachings of his son Jesus, can I also believe in Allah and accept the teachings of his one and only, Mo-ham-mad (pbuh)? Kinda like some countries allow dual citizenship?

One wonders if OIG is a minister in the CoE with an eye to a bishopric! ;)

26 December 2012 10:59  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Olive Jones. I had the "born again" experience.

That figures ! No further explanation required madam. And you wouldn’t be the first disaffected Christian to go over to Islam. Good luck to you. Don’t forget to cover your face and walk two steps behind your man...

Len. the religion which is ABOUT Christ becomes the reality which IS Christ.

What’s this rot ? You are not even a ‘Christian’ now, because that is all that’s available to us mere mortals. Beneath you is it. Part of the body of Christ are you, and assuming the divinity that goes with it.

You two aren’t posting from the lounge of the same secure unit by chance ?


26 December 2012 11:14  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Len/OIG (Olive?)

Timothy Keller describes being born again as like travelling from Mexico to Canada. Some take their entire lives, some travel by plane and arrive overnight, some arrive with great ceremony.

Whatever happens one day you wake up and know you are in Canada.

Phil

(No we are not saying that Canada is the some sort or utopia Avi!)





26 December 2012 12:07  
Blogger Olive Jones said...

@OIG,

That figures ! No further explanation required madam. And you wouldn’t be the first disaffected Christian to go over to Islam. Good luck to you. Don’t forget to cover your face and walk two steps behind your man..."

I gather from your reply that you didn't even really hear what I was saying, and it was pretty straightforward. No wonder you are lost reading Kinderling. You aren't very perceptive, or do you just want to make fun of someone trying to share their experience? "Disaffected Christian" I am not ... I simply saw most of it for what it was ... I blew away the chaff and kept the wheat, so to speak. And what in the world would make you think I would embrace the Religion of Peace? Silly man.

26 December 2012 12:12  
Blogger Kinderling said...

OiG "All you need to become a Christian is to believe in God and accept the teachings of his son, Jesus, our redeemer.

In Freemasonry, all you have to do is believe in The God External. They collect men who are dead inside in order to manipulate them. They believe the Freemason teachings are helping them ascend into greater levels of wisdom, while they are being programmed into heartless superiority and loyalty only to the Brotherhood.

Accept the teachings of Jesus without criticism? From whose book? Not his book, as Jesus' writings have yet to be found. So what bondage is this? The Keeper-of-the-Book's. Those who control what is in the book, hold the power. Catholic-Protestant. Shiite-Sunni.

Redeemer? That you have lived from a child to be so horibly wrong that you will be crushed, tortured and burned for Eternity by this God, unless you submit and yield your soul unto It. That is called denial and letting someone else deal with your problems. Every other Religion too, will welcome you as servant.

Uhhh... Jesus time. He'd been there before. History really doesn't have to repeat itself. He welcomes you as friend when you have sorted yourself out and faced your thorns. Only the truth sets you free. That's the conviction of repentance; not humiliation and submission - Communism and Fascism respectively.

Nothing taken from the world or Heaven on the outside, can make you a better person. You are to be alone to make your prayers, and wait, in suffering, to be revealed what you did to cause it. For in anger, what you judged, became a curse upon your head. Grieve, and sin no more.

Nightmarish Tales of Gods and Demons are given to little children, to swear the oaths, to remove the kingdom already in them, to prevent them from seeing you and your master, for what you had already become.

You want to be a Christian like this:?

"All you need to become a Christian is to believe in God and accept the teachings of his son, Jesus, our redeemer.

or like this:

"Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.

Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied.

Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh.

Blessed are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man."

26 December 2012 12:14  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Kinderling

The message is not complicated like you try to make it.

Yes you need no books to accept Jesus, but if you chose to follow, at one point in your life you will know him and you will delight in the words of those that know him.

Sermon on the Mount? Why is that a problem?

Phil







26 December 2012 12:27  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

I suppose I had better add before I get lots of quotes of "nasty" "Christians".

I said

"delight in the words of those that know him". Yes that includes Paul's letters, I would say especially Paul's letters.



Phil

26 December 2012 12:34  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Phil: The message is not complicated like you try to make it.

Yes you need no books to accept Jesus, but if you chose to follow, at one point in your life you will know him and you will delight in the words of those that know him.


Anyone who is lost, looks to know how to become free.

In the Bible, unknown to the priests, is the path Jesus took.

The priests led you to God and slumber, the comfort that someone ese will take care of it for you, and this leads to Communism and Fascism and slavery.

To be looking for answers in a world that deliberately harms you, from junk food to junk government and junk Christianity.

Sermon on the Mount? Why is that a problem?

The Sermon on the Mount is the answer.

'Blessed are those who are poor' Those people who had given up vanity.

'Blessed are those who hunger' To give up vanity you have to hunger for the truth about youself that made you put on the cloak of pride in the first place. And to give up vanity, you will have to repent of it.

'Blessed are those who weep' And repentence is painful. Pain, shame, grief, woe... and when given without seeking forgiveness in return, (for your condemnations were an evil act), then you will be set free and laugh.

'Blessed are those who curse you..'
And... were back in the room.

What a gospel! That they tried to bury and give you submission to their God(s) and not yours.

Sin no more.

26 December 2012 12:47  
Blogger len said...

No one is 'worthy' of Jesus.

It is only when you come to a realisation of that essential fact that the Messiah can actually save you!.

As long as you rely on your own 'worthiness'(righteousness in Biblical terms) then the Messiah cannot save you!.

Paul describes religious 'personal righteousness' as' dung'a polite term used by translators.

26 December 2012 12:48  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Olive and Kinderling

Really little of what you say about the process of finding ands experiencing God contradicts the words of Jesus or, indeed, the Catholic faith that I follow. It is all about understanding and growing in one's faith as one discovers more.

The two commandments of God:

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength."

And:

"Love your neighbour as yourself."

Of course, the strands are entwined. To know God, to love Him; to know ourselves, to love ourselves; and to know and love others. A complex process, indeed.

I agree with Phil, establishing a relationship with God and becoming one with Christ is a journey.

Safe travelling and I do hope you arrive safely at journey's end.

26 December 2012 13:11  
Blogger Kinderling said...

It is only when you come to a realisation of that essential fact that the Messiah can actually save you!.

In the Beatitudes of Jesus I just quoted in my last post, did Jesus say you needed a Redeemer to do this? No, you face you demons on your own, for unless you are prepared to die, (to go cold turkey), you will not live. Christianity, as you describe as you are living, is only methodone.

The truth will save you, and yet you say the Jewish Messiah will save you. Will the Mardi save you too? Well, not you, but the billion who believe? For does wobbly-wobbly Faith, trump reality?

Paul describes religious 'personal righteousness' as' dung' Gandalf, would wouldn't he, and his followers will hear him.

26 December 2012 13:17  
Blogger Kinderling said...

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength."

And:

"Love your neighbour [you dislike] as yourself."

You can't have one premis without the other.

The unknown god and the unknown neighbor.

But then, I'm standing next to Jesus and you're stand by Jesus Patent No.2012

26 December 2012 13:21  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Kinderling

See, for someone who claims wisdom you are very insulting.

You know nothing about my relationship with God, with myself or my neighbours. Yet feel able to claim this:

"But then, I'm standing next to Jesus and you're stand by Jesus Patent No.2012"

This only reinforces my notion you are still fighting demons and trying to free yourself from your past.

If Jesus is indeed standing by you, listen to what He's saying.

26 December 2012 14:27  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

26 December 2012 14:53  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Inspector said ...

"No one like Len saying “No, that’s not good enough, you are not worthy”."

len said ...

"No one is 'worthy' of Jesus."

So who's right and who's wrong?

Do you know one of the best books about Jesus I've come across is written for children.

It's "Jesus Make Me Worthy" by Fr. Robert Power.

26 December 2012 15:12  
Blogger len said...

The article by HG (above) refers to the 'sophisticated' mind' being unable to grasp the realities of God or the Gospel... this can occur within and without religion.

1 Corinthians 1:1
Christ Crucified Is God’s Power and Wisdom

' For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.'

There is a Wisdom which comes from above.This Wisdom is counter to that which is 'Earthly'.Our thoughts, reasoning`s, arguments,rationales, and opinions are worthless in God`s sight.We are commanded to have the Mind of Christ and to seek the Wisdom which comes 'from above' from God.
Without God`s Wisdom the Cross and the Gospel will be extremely difficult if not impossible to comprehend.
This is why religion features high in the estimation of man because it gives a 'set of rules' to follow thereby 'making a detour' around the Cross of Jesus Christ where the believer is united with Christ in His Death and consequent resurrection.

26 December 2012 15:49  
Blogger len said...

No one is' worthy' of salvation, and no personal' worthiness'makes us acceptable to God. No one can boast that they were 'worthy' to be saved.

It is only the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ,Indwelling a believer that makes us 'worthy' to a Holy God.

26 December 2012 16:22  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

len said ....

"Without God`s Wisdom the Cross and the Gospel will be extremely difficult if not impossible to comprehend."

Who could disagree with this statement? It can be understood rationally and either accepted or rejected. The issue is whether each of us, individually, has to fully understand the Gospel instantaneously to be "saved"? Can the word of God not be an invitation to a journey of discovery within a Church? You may recall this is Pope Benedict's message that you showed such hostility to.

And there is no logical or reasonable connection with your first statement and this:

"This is why religion features high in the estimation of man because it gives a 'set of rules' to follow thereby 'making a detour' around the Cross of Jesus Christ where the believer is united with Christ in His Death and consequent resurrection."

This is just your ignorance of the Catholic tradition - Anglo and Roman. Before you can criticise this you really do have to understand it.

You see we believe the structure of 'religion' and organised liturgy, facilitates man's growth in faith from novice to fully engaged. We develop and maintain a relationship with Christ through active membership of His earthly Body - the Church.

This 'set of rules' are what, exactly? Just what is it about the liturgy and worship of Orthodox, Catholic and Anglican Christian 'religion' that offends you so much?

In your own words please, without long scriptural quotes or cut and pastes from other sites.

26 December 2012 17:29  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Oh Lord !

A fellow goes off on his travels and when he comes back he finds he’s upset the zen people.

Now listen you lot. Believe in God and accept the Christ. That’s it, you are now a Christian. No ‘spiritual journeys’ needed, no mazes to negotiate. No unworthiness, guilt or shame obstacles that born again poison puts in your way.

For God’s sake, leave the fathoming of Christ’s message to the priests. Then they can tell us. The rest of us are too busy putting food on the table. We are working beings not navel contemplators...

26 December 2012 17:39  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Olive Jones. You aren't very perceptive,

A man is in his chair reading the paper. All is peace and God is in his heaven. His wife walks into the room, stares at him and bursts into tears. On being asked what’s wrong, she rushes out of the room crying “you aren’t very perceptive”.

Men do NOT do perception. Need more be said ?

26 December 2012 17:46  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Inspector said ...

"Believe in God and accept the Christ. That’s it, you are now a Christian."

Needs a little refining (you know, filling in of detail about who Jesus was and what He did) but essentially true.

Well done, that oft times unorthodox, yet peculiarly orthodox Roman Catholic.

26 December 2012 17:52  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Inspector

Ummm ... was the 25th wedding anniversary he'd forgotten?

26 December 2012 17:53  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Dodo. One’s father never did find out on any occasion. He just took the radio and disappeared into the shed...

26 December 2012 18:19  
Blogger len said...

The demons knew who Christ was ...and believed.

In fact the demons knew better than the Pharisees.....did this make the demons' saved?.'

26 December 2012 19:03  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Len, you are teetering on the psychiatric...

26 December 2012 19:22  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Ah Kinderling

Thanks for the reply. You have failed to answer any of my questions or concerns. To quote BoJo, your thesis is an inverted pyramid of piffle.

26 December 2012 19:35  
Blogger len said...

Obviously we need to go beyond' mere mental assent' to Christ`s finished work at Calvary.
Jesus`s command "you must be born again" is not' a suggestion'but a direct command.

Also "take up your Cross and follow me"(note the 'YOUR' Cross) this implies participation. 'The cross' Jesus refers to is an instrument of execution not a pretty ornament to hang around your neck.
So how does all this affect the Christian today? How can we participate in a Crucifixion that happened 2,000yrs ago?.
God stands outside time... the crucifixion of Jesus Christ is not a past distant event but a present reality and if we accept that Jesus died in OUR place God is satisfied with that and can grant us His Life without compromising His Holiness or Justice.IF we have the Spirit of Christ within us we have participated in the reality of the Crucifixion and the Resurrection.

We cannot hand over our salvation to Priests to 'administer'.Paul tells us to be "Working Out Your Salvation"
(Philippians 2:12-13)

This means testing what we believe with the Word of God and the Spirit of Truth, making sure we are grounded in Christ and walking in the Spirit,obeying the Spirits promptings and leading`s.



26 December 2012 19:37  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Len, don’t you appreciate talking figuratively ?

You are a right sod. Hounding a believer like this.

The Inspector was born once, he cannot be born again. And if you see him hauling a cross around, it will be to nail you up on, for a couple of hours. It’s the least you deserve.


26 December 2012 19:52  
Blogger Kinderling said...

David,

What are you looking for?

26 December 2012 20:14  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Kinderling

What am I looking for?

To you answer in your native tongue, I am thinking -

it depends on whether the moon is made of cheese, on whether the cock crows three times before dawn, and 12 hens lay addled eggs.

Now this is a school of philosophy I can teach - all it requires is a colourful imagination and a glib tongue.

A bit like yours my dear Kinderling.

26 December 2012 20:45  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi David

I think you are looking for a beard trim,if that was what you really looked like, lol.

26 December 2012 20:56  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Hannah

Ah, well, I am trying to philosohize with Kinderling, Olive, Len, Inspector and Dodo.

I think we need to look at the Greek philosopher So -Krates(American spelling btw) :

"All we are is dust in the wind, dude".

26 December 2012 21:11  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Kinderling. All you need to become a Christian is to believe in God and accept the teachings of his son, Jesus, our redeemer.

Yes, to re-iterate, that’s all us flesh and blood types are required to do. Anything extra is dressing, proof of commitment, if you will.

Your post of 12:14 reminds one of the beautiful medieval manuscripts turned out by Christian monks in the west. Where they take and embroider the first letter of the page. Occasionally this beatification causes that one letter to take up around a sixth of the page. And yet, all that is there is one letter.

You are of the zen people, old friend. You look to find a hidden message where there is none. Because when it comes down to it, that italic sentence is all we need to know, yet you demand mysticism. Why ?

26 December 2012 21:21  
Blogger IanCad said...

OIG @ 17:39 wrote:

"---leave the fathoming of Christ’s message to the priests. Then they can tell us."

You surprise and disappoint me.

Here you are; one who dosen't suffer fools gladly. Certainly a man of the world and one who I thought had an independent mind of his own.

I'm sure you'd never eat at a place called Ma's; would never play cards with someone named Doc. I bet you wouldn't trust your wife with a man called Reverend, yet here you are, stating that you are quite content in subordinating your own good judgement to a bamboozling caste of dissemblers called Priests.

There is nothing to stop you searching the scriptures for yourself. Indeed you are meant to. No intermediary. Just you and the Word and the Spirit.

Len suggested we read Phillippians.

They are our marching orders.
Fall In!!

26 December 2012 21:47  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

So can someone of low intellect or someone who cannot read, not rely on the Apostolic successors of Christ?

Not that I'm implying the Inspector is either, you understand.

Is everyone equally equipped to understand scripture? That position isn't terribly biblical.

26 December 2012 22:01  
Blogger IanCad said...

Dodo,

The Word is meant to be preached in its simple, original form to those who cannot read.

Teachers are to be faithful to the Word. They are not to add to, or subtract from Scripture.

False Teachers are singled out for just retribution.

Are you telling me that the church that claims petrine inheritance has not corrupted the world with its false doctrines?

26 December 2012 22:14  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

IanCad, old chap. You must divest yourself of this protestant nonsense that priests are the work of the devil.

If your are physically ill, do you not consult a physician ?

If you are spiritually wanting, would you not consult a physician of the soul ?

Having said that, if your physician suggests you give up drink, tobacco, women and fried food, you then ignore him and let the priest know. He’ll comfort you in your last moments and arrange for a hole to be dug for you...

It’s the Catholic way, you know.

Right then, dismissed that man.

26 December 2012 22:20  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

I have to admit I still do not understand either Kinderling or Len, even after this current dialogue. What is this whole born again theology and why such an emphasis on this, given it is written in only one Gospel? Does Len speak in tongues like other 'charismatics' ?

26 December 2012 22:26  
Blogger IanCad said...

OIG,

You are putting words in my mouth.
Nowhere on this blog have I stated that priests are the work of the devil.

Certainly I have tarred them with being in error but I also have met many whose generosity, compassion and charity are shining examples of the highest Christian ideals. I have also stated that, of all denominations, the Roman Catholic priests and nuns will go where no others will.
They do not mind getting their hands dirty.
God Bess Them!!

I probably shouldn't have engaged in this debate as I can see the night crew is ready for action.
In order for me to be at least half a man the next day I need nine hours sleep. I'm already going to be short two so I shall be even more useless than ever tomorrow.

When is it going to stop raining?

26 December 2012 22:46  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Kinderling

The Sermon on the Mount is the answer.

'Blessed are those who are poor' Those people who had given up vanity.

in a way, The actual words are blessed are those who are poor in spirit are not likely to put possessions (or anything else) before the love of God (idolise money, vanity etc)-- parable of the Rich man

you missed blessed are those who mourn-- ie lost what is most dear to them on earth so that they can embrace Jesus.

'Blessed are those who hunger' To give up vanity you have to hunger for the truth about youself that made you put on the cloak of pride in the first place. And to give up vanity, you will have to repent of it.

Again you missed bits out, blessed are those that hunger for rightousness. (Hunger for what is right God-- NOT youeself!)

'Blessed are those who weep' And repentence is painful. Pain, shame, grief, woe... and when given without seeking forgiveness in return, (for your condemnations were an evil act), then you will be set free and laugh.

Again you changed the wording slightly see above


What a gospel!.

That I can agree on

Phil

26 December 2012 22:54  
Blogger Olive Jones said...

@OIG,

Men do NOT do perception. Need more be said ?

Why not just be honest and say YOU do not do perception? Silly man.

26 December 2012 23:13  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

I say Olive! That's not nice or helpful.

One should point out the errors to one's neighbour not get personal. Don't you agree? Not to mention our host frowns upon such things, this being a blog for erudite discussion and all that.

27 December 2012 01:05  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Kinderling

The Sermon on the Mount is the answer.

'Blessed are those who are poor' Those people who had given up vanity.

in a way, The actual words are blessed are those who are poor in spirit. As these people are not likely to put possessions (or anything else) before the love of God (idolise money, vanity etc)-- parable of the Rich man

you missed blessed are those who mourn-- ie lost what is most dear to them on earth so that they can embrace Jesus.


'Blessed are those who hunger' To give up vanity you have to hunger for the truth about youself that made you put on the cloak of pride in the first place. And to give up vanity, you will have to repent of it.

Again you missed bits out, blessed are those that hunger for rightousness. (Hunger for what is right God-- NOT youeself!)

'Blessed are those who weep' And repentence is painful. Pain, shame, grief, woe... and when given without seeking forgiveness in return, (for your condemnations were an evil act), then you will be set free and laugh.

Again you changed the wording slightly see above


What a gospel!.

That I can agree on

Phil

27 December 2012 07:33  
Blogger Kinderling said...

OiG has complained about going zen in intetpreting the Beatitudes, that to Be Still and Know is not a valid way of seeing the words in their context. That an objective mind is not valid to a subjective euphoria and emotional joining with The Christ you never met and could not speak his mother tongue.

The gamut of Christ worship, of The True Version of the Religion, is a psychology to behold. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

To be made slaves yet again. For to ask "what would Jesus do" is to miss the oportunity in the moment, to catch what is being done to your country and kinsmen, in the name of good, when there is no good. To be made to live by bread alone as the reward in heaven and on earth.

27 December 2012 08:00  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Len

Your post annoyed me..

You cannot judge the Inspector's faith

Not everyone is saved in the same way.

Not everyone has a dramaitc filling by the spirit. Read Acts (E.g the Egyptian finance minister on his Chariot) and in Paul's letters, many were convinced by the teaching. No dramatic filling of the Holy Sprit.

I recently read an account of a muslim terrorist who became a Christian. He describes it as "God guided me to the truth" ..His confession was.. "He is the one true God, revealed in Christ,...Isa.... as written in the Qur'an" No mention of being born again or indeed being filled by the holy spirit before he was convinced (With huge life thtreatening implications for him and his family)

Peter talks about the need to be transformed. Your whole world becomes focussed on Jesus. This can come as a born again experience or from a rational decision.

I am skeptical about the altar calls that a person comes to the front, we pray for them they cry etc and everyone says how lovely they are saved.. Generally they are not.. Perhaps they have made the first step on the road to being saved. The rest will require teaching from the church and from their own study and prayer.

Phil





27 December 2012 08:31  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Kinderling

"The Christ you never met and could not speak his mother tongue."

Many of us know Christ. None of us can speak his mother tongue, but it does not matter because he can speak ours. In fact Kinderling he will speak to you if you let him...... Even in the Yoda version of English that you seem to like using:)

This version of the Sermon on the Mount (the Beatitudes) I find helpful

When Jesus saw his ministry drawing huge crowds, he climbed a hillside. Those who were apprenticed to him, the committed, climbed with him. Arriving at a quiet place, he sat down and taught his climbing companions. This is what he said:

1 “You’re blessed when you’re at the end of your rope. With less of you there is more of God and his rule.

2 “You’re blessed when you feel you’ve lost what is most dear to you. Only then can you be embraced by the One most dear to you.

3 “You’re blessed when you’re content with just who you are—no more, no less. That’s the moment you find yourselves proud owners of everything that can’t be bought.

4 “You’re blessed when you’ve worked up a good appetite for God. He’s food and drink in the best meal you’ll ever eat.

5 “You’re blessed when you care. At the moment of being ‘care-full,’ you find yourselves cared for.

6 “You’re blessed when you get your inside world—your mind and heart—put right. Then you can see God in the outside world.

7 “You’re blessed when you can show people how to cooperate instead of compete or fight. That’s when you discover who you really are, and your place in God’s family.

8 “You’re blessed when your commitment to God provokes persecution. The persecution drives you even deeper into God’s kingdom.

Taken from "THe Message"

Phil

27 December 2012 08:46  
Blogger Kinderling said...

People who spoke to God: Moses, St Paul, Mohammad.

People who did not speak to God: Jesus and other sane people.

27 December 2012 09:59  
Blogger William said...

Kinderling

"OIG has complained about going zen in intetpreting the Beatitudes, that to Be Still and Know is not a valid way of seeing the words in their context."

The phrase is "Be still and know that I am God"

And that is indeed a valid way of seeing the words in their context.

27 December 2012 10:15  
Blogger len said...

'But Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed.'(Luke 5:16) Jesus said what the Father told Him to say.
"For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." John 12:49-50

2 Cor 12:7 is a passage that clearly and irrefutable has Paul praying to Jesus 3 times in a petition request.

"And because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me—to keep me from exalting myself! 8 Concerning this I entreated the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may dwell in me." (2 Cor 12:7-9: 7)

The god that Mohammed spoke to could not possibly be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob because much of what Mohammed reports as his god saying contradicts the teachings of the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

Read and compare the Christian Bible and the Qur`an.

27 December 2012 10:22  
Blogger len said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

27 December 2012 10:32  
Blogger len said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

27 December 2012 10:34  
Blogger len said...


(Deleted last post as too many spelling errors(must sort out that spell checker thing)

Jesus promises a 'helper' to help those to understand Scripture and He will assist at whatever level you are at... all you have to do is to place your trust in Him.

Many men were martyred to place the bible in the hands of 'common men' in a language they could easily understand... Jesus will 'illuminate' the scriptures for all who ask Him to do so.

27 December 2012 10:36  
Blogger len said...

I do not Judge anyone`s faith although Jesus Christ does by His Word.

We cannot pick and choose what statements made by Jesus we will accept and what we will reject.We cannot add to the Word of God or take away from it what we disagree with.

Jesus said "Why do you call me Lord and not do what I say?"(Luke 6:46,)

27 December 2012 10:47  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Len

"I do not Judge anyone`s faith although Jesus Christ does by His Word."

Yes you do Len.

At least you are judging fellow Christians in an unloving way.

That is you appear to be slapping them down instead of building them up.

Since we seem to be using Luke 6, let us try to help everyone to build their house on rock not sand. The thing is that until the flood comes you cannot tell who has built on what.

The results might be surprising!

Phil

27 December 2012 12:09  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Lord Lavendon

What is this whole born again theology and why such an emphasis on this, given it is written in only one Gospel?

Man is by nature spiritually dead. That is the impact of original sin. We are all of us sinful creatures from conception and by nature justly condemned to face the wrath of God. The sin nature is passed from parent to child in a hopeless chain of death. That nature manifests itself in the life and will and desires of each child. He sins because he is by nature sinful. He does not become sinful because he sins. The evil he does is a manifestation of and not the cause of his nature. He cannot avoid sinning. He will not even try. He is born a slave to his nature, and though a slave, he loves his master. This is the central insight of Christian anthropology. This is also the offense of the Gospel. Christianity declares that all men are by nature evil, hopelessly evil, incapable of doing anything about it on their own, and justly condemned because of it. But it cannot be avoided. That is where the Christian faith begins.

To be 'born again' is to be the object of a sovereign act of God that restores a man to spiritual life. It overcomes the hopeless state of man that is driven by the hopeless state of his nature. The correct analogy is resurrection from the dead. The Lord Jesus spoke and Lazarus came forth from the tomb. That is a sovereign act of God. As a result, Lazarus opened his eyes, became sentient, and started to breathe. In a similar way, the Holy Spirit calls forth men from spiritual death to spiritual life. We call that being 'born again.' As a result the believer manifests his new spiritual life through repentance and faith. He must do so just as Lazarus must breathe. The man who is born again is spiritually alive to God. He is now a new creation in Christ Jesus. He is now able to understand the things of God and obey God and please God. He also still carries that corpse of a sin nature around with him. That is why we still sin. But his relationship to God has been fundamentally and permanently altered. He is no longer helpless slave to sin and death.

Being born again is not peripheral. It is central. It is the difference between heaven and hell.

carl

27 December 2012 15:22  
Blogger len said...

Jesus undoubtedly upset many people by telling them the truth.

Which is the more 'loving 'to risk upsetting people by telling them the truth or to to be 'P C' about it?.

Do not be 'judgemental'seems to be a scripture every secular person(and some religious) quotes to Christians who uphold the Truth of God`s Word.

Are Christians called to Judge?.
Lets have a look.....
Matthew 7:15, 16 'Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. ' You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? ' (Without judging how can a Christian discern who is a false prophet or a false teacher?.)

Paul 1 Thessalonians 5:21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; How do you examine everything carefully without judging? How do you test the spirit as John says in 1 John 4:1 without judging? Look what John says Beloved (Christian), do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. Paul said Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! (How do you discern what a 'different gospel' is without judging?)

Matthew 18:15, 16, 17 and 18 'If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private' (How do you do that without first judging him? )

27 December 2012 15:22  
Blogger len said...

I can only reiterate - what Carl has said ( 27 December 2012 15:22)

It is a matter literally of Life and Death.

27 December 2012 15:27  
Blogger len said...

Perhaps the word 'discerning ' might be more acceptable than 'judging?.


27 December 2012 15:34  

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