Friday, January 11, 2013

The Church of England must soar above the squabbles


According to Bishop Lesslie Newbigin, 'there is not and cannot be a gospel which is not culturally embodied'. He maintained that the missionary task of the Church is to challenge the 'reigning plausibility structure' by examining it in light of the revealed purposes of God contained in the biblical narrative. He advocated a scepticism which enables one to take part in the life of society without being deluded by its own beliefs about itself.

Easier said.

The principle of inculturation cannot endorse uncritical acceptance of the totality of any culture. And yet the Church of England adheres to the territorial 'church in community' type of ecclesiology which works with the state to define its worship, and through dioceses, parishes and chaplaincies to effect its pastoral care and compassionate service. Establishment commits the Church to full involvement in civil society and to making a contribution to the public discussion of issues that have moral or spiritual implications. In his book Church Drawing Near: Spirituality and Mission in a Post-Christian Culture, Paul Avis observes:
The pastoral mode of mission is essentially the personal mode. It connects with the personal quest that motivates many reflective people in our culture – a quest for wholeness of body, mind and spirit, for wholeness in relationships and in community, for the integrity of the natural environment and for our harmony with it.
By concerning itself with the pastoral dimensions of wholeness and healing, Avis is persuaded that the mission of the Church accords with people’s quest for meaning and an assurance of identity which cannot be found without community, without fellowship. Yet one of the Church of England's fundamental weaknesses, in common with many churches in Europe, is its tendency to demand that people do not merely acknowledge the Lordship of Christ but also abandon their former way of life in favour of that of a peculiar middle-class sub-culture.

Notwithstanding some of the excellent work going on in some of the most impoverished parishes in the country, the public perception of the Church of England remains one of middle-class privilege and an élitism which has little relevance to a modern, pluralist, multi-ethnic society. While this may be a misconception, it is undoubtedly exacerbated by the nature of establishment and the fusion of the Church with secular government: what does the Church of Cameron and the Gospel of Dave mean to those who do not share his privilege and élitism?

And yet it is within the church-state settlement that there remains one of the Church’s primary functions in holding government and political parties to account. The 2008 document Moral but no Compass, although unofficial, illustrates the powerful role the Church of England may still exercise in highlighting the inadequacies - spiritual and political - of the entire political system, in order that people’s welfare may be improved. Pace the secularist-hunmanists, the public realm remains an arena in which the Church’s moral and ethical mission continues to be exercised for the common good.

Perhaps it is only the Establishment Church that, in contemporary society, possesses the status to permit it to fight for representation of a slighted electorate in the face of an increasingly abstract political élite. And yet some of its chosen forays often concern themselves with issues which are ceasing to be of primary concern to the majority of the electorate - issues of equality, for example. These only add to the perception that the Church of England seeks to exclude or is out of sympathy with some distinct groups of people for whom it should have a pastoral concern. This would be less of a problem if the Church’s Supreme Governor were not also the Head of State, for by virtue of being so, she is obliged to exercise her public outward government in a manner which accords with the private welfare of her subjects – of whatever creed, ethnicity, sexuality or political philosophy.

The royal supremacy in regard to the Church of England is in its essence the right of supervision over the administration of the Church, vested in the Crown as the champion of the Church, in order that the religious welfare of its subjects may be provided for. The Church of England exists for all people - not just the Christians. While theologians and politicians argue over the manner of this religious welfare - instead of just getting on with ensuring it - people are alienated and distanced: the Church is thereby hindered in its mission.

As we move towards a new era under Archbishop Justin, it is for all members of the Church of England to participate in the ongoing quest for Anglican identity in the fragmented, (post-)modern, multi-fath, ecumenical context we inhabit. We need argumentation which will soar above the trivial theological and political squabbles of the day and which might take every issue back to first principles – the nature and purpose of the Christian Church. The theological imagination must inhabit the past life of the Church, as well as Scripture and the creative, nodal points of contemporary culture. Scripture, tradition and reason must be brought into vibrant conversation. Ultimately, they must come together and co-inhere in an integrated working of authority in theology and Church. If they do not, we are irrelevant.

211 Comments:

Blogger Manfarang said...

"The Church of England exists for all people - not just the Christians."
A rather cool welcome for anyone who might be a bit odd!

11 January 2013 at 11:39  
Blogger Chantry Priest said...

My respects to yr Grace.
It is with much distress that this presbyter notes that yr Grace has not brought with him from the Elysium Fields that gift for matchless prose that was at the same time both majestic and yet so clear that people of all classes had no difficulty in understanding.
"Fine words butter no parsnips" they say, but yr Grace gives them not, only the modernist margarine of jargon that says nothing.
The Church has a mission-to proclaim the Gospel of Christ.
Anglicanism had an identity and a cohesion expressed through the BCP and the KJV.
The Queen's Majesty swore to maintain the Church at her Coronation.
All was abandoned and/or denigrated over the last 50 years in the name of "renewal" which would shown through the coming of the Spirit...
"By their fruits ye shall know them" But there were no fruits.
Only decline and descent into chaos has happened.
This truth is self evident.
Fundamental Protestants and the Orthodox has always recognised this. They refused to be made 'relevant' and because of this, they flourish.
Rome has belatedly recognised this truth-it is not to late for her. She has faced the abyss and has turned back.
The C.of E.? Its leaders have sold their souls to Modernist Heresy to such an extent that the process now is inexorable. Like the Gaderenes it is over the cliff and, like them, cannot now survive.

11 January 2013 at 11:56  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Channtry Priest
I suppose the Amish flourish because they refused to be relevent.Not many of them though.

11 January 2013 at 12:05  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Chantry Priest seems to have hit the nail upon the head. Where are the fruits of the " get with it " movement that I remember from 50 years ago ? Just decline , sadly. Conform to this world, lose the Spirit and slowly , once the branch is no longer connected to the main stem of the vine, and the truth, you shrivel up and die. That's what is happening , except, except, in the vibrant, family attracting, often mainly male led Conservative Evangelical churches that are still Anglican, just. They generate much more than their fair share of the funds and many of the ordinands but are routinely ignored and sidelined by the overwhelmingly liberal House of Bishops. The main body of the C of E is dying yet our bishops continue to serve up the same diluted, failed creed. Only the unabridged Gospel, standing with the age old traditions will offer the people the true hope that they seek.

11 January 2013 at 12:49  
Blogger Flossie said...

I'm not quite sure that I have properly understood the tenor of this post. I agree that we have to be 'in this world' but we do not have to be necessarily 'of this world'. The mention of the Amish is interesting here because they are the latter but not the former, and while I admire a lot of their tenets I think they are wrong to cut themselves off to preserve their culture.

As a lifelong Anglican I hate to sound too negative, but I really feel His Grace's last para in which he is hopeful of 'an integrated working of authority in theology and the Church' has come rather too late, as evidenced by the gerrymandered House of Bishops vote in the recent Synod debate. If we no longer have bishops we can trust, how can this possibly work?



11 January 2013 at 12:56  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

The problem is that the differences within the Church of England are not trivial theological issues nor political squabbles. The 'via media' is inherently unstable and without a church structure and leadership capable of settling issues of theology it can only result in political disagreements.

How on earth can democracy mix with High Church Anglicanism, Calvinism and liberal and fundamentalist Evangelicalism - and all the shades of grey in between?

11 January 2013 at 13:52  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace

‘According to Bishop Lesslie Newbigin, 'there is not and cannot be a gospel which is not culturally embodied'.’

I agree with that to a certain extent. There are some dramatic ideas in the works of Shakespeare for which there is no equivalent in German, for example. Indeed, Newbigin’s insight may explain why in the book of Acts the apostles, empowered by the Holy Spirit, spoke in different languages.

Nevertheless, as the Chinese peasant can understand the works of Shakespeare, put on his plays and through them sneer at his Government – the Bible in its turn presents little difficulty to him.

The CofE is not just for Christians – because its Supreme Governor is also the Head of State of a pluralist society – and so for fear of breaching discrimination law certain priests must be considered as candidates to become bishops. The paradox here is that the more we become relevant the more the world regards us as irrelevant.

‘[I]t is for all members of the Church of England to participate in the ongoing quest for Anglican identity in the fragmented, (post-)modern, multi-faith, ecumenical context we inhabit.’

I suggest there is something far more superior than ‘Anglican identity’ – exercising our common citizenship in Heaven – a kingdom not of this ‘fragmented, (post ) modern, multi-faith, ecumenical context we inhabit’ – a common citizenship (with its duties and obligations) that could repair our fragmented country. After all if the gospel can be preached and accepted around the globe by different peoples and cultures – then why can it not be preached in our poverty stricken multi-faith inner-cities?

Aim for Heaven and its citizenship status and God may well roll this little blue marble into our laps.

11 January 2013 at 13:55  
Blogger Fearghas MacFhionnlaigh said...

Cranmer writes:
"We need argumentation which will soar above the trivial theological and political squabbles of the day and which might take every issue back to first principles – the nature and purpose of the Christian Church. The theological imagination must inhabit the past life of the Church, as well as Scripture and the creative, nodal points of contemporary culture."

Might I enthusiastically encourage perusal of the writings of the magnificent (I don't use the term lightly) Christian philosopher Herman Dooyeweerd (1894-1977)? A number of his books have just been propitiously republished at very low prices. In light of the above quote from Archbishop Cranmer, I recommend starting with Dooyeweerd's "Roots of Western Culture: Pagan, Secular, and Christian Options" Paideia Press, 2012 (£6:50), which originally appeared in the post-1945 Netherlands as a series of periodical articles aimed at re-assessing and re-asserting the historic Christian contribution to Dutch society as the latter struggled to recover from the trauma of Nazi occupation. A bit more info (on my blog) regarding book here: http://tinyurl.com/bbpd32z

11 January 2013 at 14:25  
Blogger AGS said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

11 January 2013 at 15:05  
Blogger AGS said...

Fearghas,
Thank you so much for the reference. I've seen his somewhat frightening name associated with von Baader and my curiosity was piqued. 
Slán.

11 January 2013 at 15:10  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

"The Church of England exists for all people - not just the Christians."

I'd go along with that. I'm an Anglican Buddhist. (You can have Anglican Druids, so why not?).

I was baptised into the Church of England, go to Church on average once a year, am agnostic about God though think Jesus was a good guy.

I find Buddhist philosophy more comprehensible than theology. But I really like the cultural stuff - old hymns, architecture, stained glass and the language of the King James version. So I suppose I'm kind of culturally Anglican but philosophically Buddhist.

11 January 2013 at 16:01  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

11 January 2013 at 16:09  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

seanrobsville

Excellent! You'd make a fine Anglican Bishop in that case. However, you would probably need to undertake some sort of theology course first - maybe an online one - and do a bit of networking.

11 January 2013 at 16:11  
Blogger John Magee said...

"The Church of England exists for all people - not just the Christians."

Does this assume people can remain non Christians and worship as they please in C of E churches and cathedrals? Or simply attend church suppers to socialize and evensong services to listen to the choir?

Saying stuff like this is another nail in the coffin of this of soon to be extinct national church dinosaur.

What next? Four minarets added to Canterbury Cathedral or St. Paul's Cathedral to please Muslims? Maybe a large statue of the Hindu goddess Shiva as Nataraja on the altar of Westminster Abbey (Prince Charles would love this). None of this is crazy it sounds based on the antics of the C of E over the past 5 decades.

What will this crew think of next to look rediculous?

11 January 2013 at 16:41  
Blogger Fearghas MacFhionnlaigh said...

It might be somewhat cliff-track and horse-frightening to detour towards von Baader here. However, should anyone wish to do so, Dr J Glenn Friesen is the key researcher arguing a connection. See:
http://www.members.shaw.ca/jgfriesen/Mainheadings/Baader.html

In seeking to put Dooyeweerd into a more familiar context, it would doubtless reassure for many readers (of my generation at least) to note his profound influence on the likes of the late Hans Rookmaaker ("Modern Art anf the Death of a Culture"):

"Several aspects of Rookmaaker's life and thought are particularly worth underscoring. What were his major influences? During World War II, he served in the Dutch navy. He was interned in a prison camp near Nuremberg, then another in Stanislau, doing hard labor. Though not from a believing background, he began to read the Bible upon the recommendation of a friend back home. He became convinced of its truth. In prison, he met Captain Johan Pieter Albertus Mekkes, a Christian, who introduced him to the Amsterdam philosophy espoused by Stoker, Vollenhoven, and, especially, Herman Dooyeweerd (1894–1977), whose New Critique of Theoretical Thought revolutionized Rookmaaker's outlook on epistemology and apologetics...
"After the war, Rookmaaker devoted much of his early writing to aesthetic theory based on the Cosmonomic Idea (Dooyeweerd's philosophy), which posited that nothing was neutral... Students of Rookmaaker's in the '60s and '70s may not have realized how deeply his thinking was permeated by the Amsterdam philosophy.
"Rookmaaker's lectures at l'Abri...stress the unity of life. In them he defends the Kuyperian approach to a world-and-life view. He reminisces on his discussions with his closest friend, Francis Schaeffer, about Dooyeweerd, recalling that they both profited from his critique enormously but made a conscious effort not to use his difficult terminology. Rookmaaker was deeply critical of pietism. He believed that the great tragedy of modernity was to have split the world into a sacred and a secular realm. He cautioned against Christian attempts at living in a subculture, because that unwittingly supported the same split world." ("Why All This?: Rediscovering the witness of Hans Rookmaaker", William Edgar 2006)

11 January 2013 at 16:54  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...





Well I’ll be…!

Dangerous word about chaps - ‘Elitism’. Everybody back off a little, it might go off.

PC types faint, cultural Marxists growl. The idea indeed that we are not all one strata wallowing in the depts of ignorance and poor standards and behaviour. That some of us have higher values that lift us away from the dreary companionship and stink of the base dross that we secretly (…or openly, if you are an Inspector…) despise. Yes, we are the elite. We are better than them. We don’t run with the herd.

The elite. The best. We aspire to greater heights. We have God, Jesus and his wisdom to guide us. We are tattoo free, we don’t argue with the neighbours in the street. We don’t get stoned every night on illicit drugs, and lust after children or the same sex. We don’t listen to rap, or chew gum. We dress in a manner that looks like we can afford to dress well, and not like some Victorian street urchin or harlot, or urban guerrilla.

And we are PROUD to be of the elite, and wish more would join us…





11 January 2013 at 17:12  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

.... and we are 'umble too, Inspector.

11 January 2013 at 17:37  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Inspector

I have read numerous accounts of missionaries that once they have "saved" (becoming a christian) a family from the slums. They hope that that family will be useful to the missionaries to connect with the people. 99% of the time however, they have found that family to be useless to them.

The family has become"middle class" and has no desire to return to where but for the Grace of God they still would be.

Phil

11 January 2013 at 18:39  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Elitism would be to know you could not "have" God, Jesus, and expect his wisdom to guide you when his conversations were of his time and culture. Better to ask a child with the prepared reverence of a soap-washed mouth, than the greased palm of a priest.

Middle Class ethics of self reliance are only for Social Workers to instruct the financially poor to be self reliant, they do not address spiritual poverty by the correct turn of a Winsor Knot or a well filled bank account.

11 January 2013 at 18:41  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

There’s a good reason for that Phil. To become a Christian when all about you are not is a courageous thing to do. Whether you live in Africa, or in a UK modern slum area. It’s better the missionaries don’t count on the family’s help, lest the family incur the wrath of their spiritually doomed neighbours. As it is with humanity, difference means problems...

11 January 2013 at 18:46  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Absolute rot, that Kinderthing, and what did the Inspector say about you dressing up your bull as mystic guidance ?


11 January 2013 at 18:49  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

This wandering Welshman has lived and worked in many different countries and as a result has been part of many different churches.

He has come to the conclusion that the Anglican way is the only way forward and is the model that God wants for the Church. However, it is of course the most difficult.

Far easier to set up a smaller Church full of people that talk like you, speak like you, worship like you and of course the most damaging, looks down on other Christians (who have got it all wrong)like you.

You do have the consolation of course that you are right with God and you worship with a group of "true believers".

Until of course you fall out (Usually make two smaller Churches-- never to forgive or even speak to each other again) and then you realise (Some do) that you were no better than the sinners you left behind because they did not read the Bible your way.

It is hard living in a big family. Far far easier to go off into your room and slam the door. However, God tells us to be living stones. Not a dysfunctional family of believers living in the same house but never talking to each other or enjoying being part of a wonderful family

Phil




11 January 2013 at 18:55  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Phil

Of course families have a head and what you've presented is an argument against the protestant schism not one in support of 'Anglicanism'.

Come to think of it, could someone actually define modern Anglicanism?

11 January 2013 at 19:13  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Many a bored housewife and vicar have run away espousing Middle Class values of a gated profession and lucrative income.

And many a self-made businesswoman has laughed at the gated religions and the rich platitudes that stop at the door.

Better to live by capitalism, for the poor and rich prosper, the poor are not priced out by those on Welfare Checks, and rich are not priced out by taxes to pay the Welfare Checks and their army of Government administrators.

What about the poverty in Africa? The Church/Mosque gave them a guaranteed place in Heaven, so they do not worry about the present. Outside gambling joints, brothels, drug dens and Churches there is utter poverty.

The Middle Classes and Middle Churches just pimp off each other looking for cheap import to sustain their ways of life.

As always, Inspector, a source of inspiration of a person once-removed, living on the outside.

11 January 2013 at 19:28  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

"Of course families have a head and what you've presented is an argument against the protestant schism "

Luther would probably disagree. You have got to admit things got pretty bad at the time. However, perhaps it is time for more working together if not reconciliation.

Phil

11 January 2013 at 19:31  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Phil
Initially Luther wanted to work within the Church for reform. And I agree the Church was in a sore state at the time.

I agree Christians must work together where we can - and at the very least not oppose one another. That said, there are some pretty serious and fundamental differences between the denominations.

11 January 2013 at 19:51  
Blogger AGustavoG said...

Dodo,
Surely attempting to define modern Anglicanism would defeat its purpose? But maybe its nature may be indicated by a sort of analogy: Anglicanism is to Christianity what Cameron is to Conservatism? Or by suggesting that modern Anglicans are like those who get the joke but are obliged not to let on? Unlike Evangelical Protestants who don't get the joke or Roman Catholics who do but don't find it funny.
In the past Anglicanism thought of itself as constituted by an accommodation-in-tension of opposing tendencies. But now it can only subsist as an accommodation that must exclude those tendencies. The inexorable logic of a middle path that has no middle. 

11 January 2013 at 21:00  
Blogger Preacher said...

No one can build on sand. It's high time for the Men of God to stand up & speak up. Just as Nehemiah the Prophet & Ezra the Priest rebuilt the ruined City of Jerusalem & cleaned & rededicated the Temple. So must the CofE rid itself of the profanity of trying to be all things to all men.
The Christian Serves God, not Man. Moving to another Denomination is not the answer, nor is bowing to the cultural demands of politicians or societies hedonistic desires.
It's Sheep or Goats time gentlemen, time to choose.

11 January 2013 at 21:04  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Kinderling

"What about the poverty in Africa"

Have you lived there?

Where do you see more smiles in a day.

Europe or Africa?

So I winder what the Churches are doing different in Africa?

You are philosopher Kinderling.

You can have lots of money but not be rich.

You work it out

Phil




11 January 2013 at 22:17  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

AGustavoG
The 'joke' is not funny, I agree.

Preacher
But what are the members of the church to choose between?

11 January 2013 at 22:33  
Blogger Fearghas MacFhionnlaigh said...

"Through blood and tears, through revolution and reaction, the process of historical development moves on to the day of judgement. Christians are called, in the name of him to whom all authority in heaven and on earth was given, to take part in the great power struggle of history with the commitment of their entire personalities and all their powers. The outcome is sure, and this gives the Christian, no matter what turn particular events may take, a peace and a rest that befit a conqueror....
"Consider the cost of taking this radical scriptural Christianity seriously. Ask yourself which side you must join in the tense spiritual battle of our times. Compromise is not an option. A middle-of-the-road stance is not possible. Either the ground motive of the Christian religion works radically in our lives or we serve other gods. If the antithesis is too radical for you, ask yourself whether a less radical Christianity is not like salt that has lost its savor. I state the antithesis as radically as I do so that we may again experience the full double-edged sharpness and power of God's Word. You must experience the antithesis as a spiritual storm that strikes lightning into your life and clears the sultry air." (Herman Dooyeweerd, "Roots of Western Culture: Pagan, Secular, and Christian Options" Paideia Press, 2012 (£6:50)

11 January 2013 at 22:52  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Ah, the smiling African. He smiles because you are of the west and not of a neighbouring tribe, and thus not about to kill him. Rather sad, if you think about it

11 January 2013 at 22:54  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Inspector, we know your views about the condition of Africans. What would be a Christian solution to the problems you believe they face?

12 January 2013 at 00:24  
Blogger John Magee said...

Inspector

The elitism of excellence in personal accomplishments like medicine, science, business, or just doing a good job no matter what you do in life is loathed by the left. They don't even want children to excel at sports or academics in order not to "offend" those unable to achieve and rise above the rest.

Elitism is only allowed today if it's the left wing elite and even then they pretend they are just like the rest of us while they live in their mansions and travel the globe in their private jets. The scum in the media, Hollywood, the BBC, those in control of our best colleges and universities, etc "know" they are better than the rest of us and what's best for us which is why they want us to think, eat, say, and do as they say but not as they do.

Polical correctness and global warming are two examples of their lies, mind, and speech attempts to control our lives.

By the way, to all those global warming dupes here, Russia and China are experiencing record cold again this winter and so is Alaska in the USA.

Record cold in Moscow and St Petersburg Russia AND Alaska this year! Where is all weather news headlined in the West? It isn't for obvious reasons.

It's too COLD!

12 January 2013 at 00:25  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Ps - excuse the new 'avatar'. Mrs Dodo insisted that I publish a recent picture showing how much we are still devoted to one another. You may understand the reasons for this.

12 January 2013 at 00:25  
Blogger John Magee said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

12 January 2013 at 00:28  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dodo

I like your "double Dodo" picture.
Did your species really mate for life before they became extinct?

12 January 2013 at 00:33  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

We're not extinct, silly!

And the mating habits of the Dodo are private, sir. Unlike your species, we do not shamelessly discuss these matters. Lord, such detail you like to go into! We just know what is right and what is wrong.

12 January 2013 at 00:39  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Here's a picture of us with Dodo Jnr. A fine specimen and a cock too; so the next generation is secured. Now to find him a suitable hen.

12 January 2013 at 01:34  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

00:25
Lovely photo of you and the missus!

12 January 2013 at 01:35  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dodo

Please accept my apologies. I would never pry into the nesting habits of a Dodo couple. Did you and the missus exchange wedding vows at St Dodo's Catholic Church?

You do know there really was at least one real St Dodo don't you?

Hummm ...since the last recorded Dodo sighting was in 1681 you and the wife must be a bit older than I had imagined...

12 January 2013 at 02:25  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Inspector

"Ah, the smiling African. He smiles because you are of the west and not of a neighbouring tribe, and thus not about to kill him. Rather sad, if you think about it"

You will like this one. I was in charge of a group of lads (16 to 25 -- we were building a road) and they often used to meet each other and hold hands sometimes for several min. I told them that in the West someone might get the wrong idea if you did that. They did not understand and it transpired that they did not have a word for “homosexual/gay/queer” in their language. They asked me what they got up to and so after carefully explaining that I was not an expert! I described their lifestyle. They found it so funny that they could not stand up. One then said that they knew why there was no word for homosexual in their language. No African would be so stupid. ---Good point.

It is sad to hear that homosexuality has now reached that part of Africa, but the positive thing is that they have formulated laws to limit it despite huge criticism from the West, especially the UK and US who are threatening to cut off all Aid unless they give homosexuals their “rights”. So far in typical African fashion (When they don’t agree with you) they have done nothing or talked about changing laws but done nothing about it.

I do believe that God will bless Africa and other parts of the world that loves him and keeps his commandments and to some extent has already started to turn his face away from the West.

Phil

12 January 2013 at 07:10  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Oh good grief, Phil.

12 January 2013 at 07:55  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...


Sorry DanJo on re reading the last line does sound very self righteous.

Lets be clear,

IF God is favouring other nations over ours it is due to lots of factors. (lack of) Morality is just one small part of it.

Phil

12 January 2013 at 09:03  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...



After seeing the film “courageous” I wondered if any of you have tried to introduce the covenant they suggest in the film?

http://www.legacydad.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/courageous-cert.jpg

If you have not seen it is a fantastic Christian film. Ideal for teenagers and young people.

The best Christian film for many years

Phil

12 January 2013 at 09:22  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Actually, my comment was about your assumption that homosexuality is cultural and that homosexuals choose their sexual orientation. Your support for laws which in some places seek to kill us in state sanctioned murder in order to limit people's freedom to express their sexual orientation is pretty distasteful too.

12 January 2013 at 09:26  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Oh good grief, Danjo!

12 January 2013 at 09:32  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

About which bit?

12 January 2013 at 09:46  
Blogger Chantry Priest said...

re "elitism"
When this presbyter was but a clerklet at his mother's knee, things were a bit different...
He comes from sound working class stock. He was a choirboy at four and attended methodist Sunday School ['cos it was just "up the road"] Both his churches were congregated also with sound working class stock [small shopkeepers, artisans, workers from the factories, etc] from the surrounding district-which was "poor" Tripe and Cow-heel shops were popular. His best friend lived in a row of houses with only two outside toilets between them. The Presbyter was lucky-his house had its own but still outside. Alas no bath. Today he would be "deprived" and doubtless also "vulnerable" as not only he roamed the streets from an very early age, he was often sent to the woodyard or the bike shop to get a gallon of paraffin for the heater to stop the toilet from freezing!
CULTURALLY things also were very different. He attended an ordinary council junior school-with sung both morning and evening prayers [proper hymns KJV and BCP Collect], plays were put on regularly with visiting actors-he particularly remembers Harlequin and Columbine and a deliciously terrifying performance of "The Monkey's Paw." Outside of school, he was surrounded by music of all sorts; classical, jazz, housewive's choice, oratorio from the local choirs-music not yet divided into artificial barriers.
The Libraries were well extremely well used [remember this was a POOR district. Even the Telly was better 'tho culture went up and down a ladder from high to low [and none the worse for that]; Westerns to Z Cars, Grandstand, the wrestling and the football scores, Dr Who,the Dickens Sunday afternoon serial. [Nancy's Murder!]; Children's serials: Rodinson Crusoe, The Children of the New Forest. Dr Finlay....
He could go on and on but his point is this: 'tho he doesn't have rose tinted spectacles, there were bad things. BUT things were different then, he knows, he remembers, he was there.
The poor were not deprived as they are now, the Church was not a middle class enclave. Even non-regular churchgoers had a connection with the Church-babies were christened, the young married and the old, buried. A Christmas and Easter attendance was the norm. A morality based on the Bible was the norm.
Things were different then...
"The past is erased, the erasure is forgotten, the lies become truth"

12 January 2013 at 09:50  
Blogger len said...

The Anglican Church must define what its position is in relation to other religions and to secular society.

It must do this clearly without compromise and without concessions to the ongoing moral decline within our society.Compromise either with other religions or with' woolly headed liberals'(inside or outside the Church) will weaken and eventually destroy the Church.
A line must be drawn between 'loving 'the lost' and allowing 'the lost'to define what the purpose of the church is.

Jesus walked this path he was' in the World' but not 'of the World'.The Church cannot withdraw and shut the door(so to speak)but also the church cannot allow the World into the Church to define what the role of the church should be.

The 39 articles 'seem to be a good baseline to define Anglicanism perhaps we should return to basic principles?.

Jesus 'cleared the Temple'of all that was not of His Father Anglicans (and others) would be well advised to do the same.

Judgement starts in the house of God and if we judged ourselves we would spare God the pain of doing so.

12 January 2013 at 09:57  
Blogger Preacher said...

Dodo.
Sheep or Goats, Wheat or Tares. God or man. It's all in the Book.
IMO it's a personal decision all men have to make, irrespective of what holy huddle one belongs to.

12 January 2013 at 09:58  
Blogger Roy said...

In its early years the Salvation Army was certainly "with it" (to use an obsolete idiom). Why should the Devil have all the best tunes? asked General Booth.

The Salvation Army was also very successful in reaching the working class, not simply in terms of doing things for them but in recruiting them and making them the backbone of the movement. It also reached the "underclass" and converted many of them rescuing them from alcohol, gambling, vice etc.

The Salvation Army also encountered considerable opposition, some of it from the existing denominations although after a while many of its Christian critics acknowledged that "by their fruits you will know them."

The Salvation Army was not deterred by opposition. General Booth believed in marching towards the sound of gunfire, not in running away.

If a similar movement arose today it would certainly be attacked by the Guardian, BBC and bien pensant clergymen.

12 January 2013 at 10:19  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Chantry Priest

THe issue is that when people beocme Christians they change.

What is called middle class today often means conforming to Christian values.

Phil

12 January 2013 at 10:49  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

DanJ0 said...

About which bit?

The Paranoia mostly....

also

"homosexuality is cultural and that homosexuals choose their sexual orientation"

You know very well that we are never going to agree on this.

Sigh.... go on then....quote Kinsey or some other "good" scientist that made up their data

Phil

12 January 2013 at 11:05  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Phil, the laws you find positive put homosexuals in prison for a year, 5 years, fourteen years, or life depending on the country. Some are proposing the death penalty and some already have the death penalty. This is not paranoia. In other places like Iran, they periodically hang homosexuals, including juveniles, from cranes in public.

Compare this to Christians in the Middle East. The religiously-influenced culture and law is resulting in their murder in places. In various countries, proselytising can result in the death penalty. For some strict Islamic states, practising Christianity or trying to convert people to Christianity is an immoral act. If I praised the law in the places here then I'd be set upon and treated with (even more) contempt.

As for agreeing whether homosexuality is cultural and sexual orientation a choice, we live in an open and liberal democractic society. You can simply ask homosexuals directly rather than rely one your Family Research Council and other dubious sources. You have access to the internet so you don't even need to ask in person.

You could even apply your own reason and ask why people would choose to be homosexual pre-1967 when we were imprisoned, blackmailed, beaten up, and so on, or in the 1970s and 1980s when we were regularly subject to violence and we had little recourse to justice because the police were institutionally homophobic.

12 January 2013 at 11:23  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Danjo,

It is about imprint. That is all.

A family used to have the father's imprint. The daughter wanted to marry a man like her father, and the son be like his father.

The socialist State changed the nest of this animal.

The daughter wants to be like the mother, the son the product of the will of the mother - for the moderating father is absent. (Unlike, yet, in Africa).

So if the mother is controlling, the male child can over-attach, invert, or reject. Be a philanderer, nancy, or nancy seeking dom. Sex with an absence of affection for a sense of life they do not have. A crying out to be filled, as much as the Christian cries out for someone to give them direction as they have no control over their own temptations and impulses.

How you got into poverty is to discover your fear response and judgement over those who violated you, often as a defenceless child, consciously or unconciously. Then repent and forgive them.

It's not a hard gospel to understand, but hard to follow until you have let your alterego, created by the world, go.

12 January 2013 at 13:09  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Phil. Now there’s a thing. No African word for homosexual.

Come to that, was there a European medieval word for it – never come across one. Another lack of discipline, paedophilia, the same.

Now, these are relatively new concepts the afflicted have brought to society, including indecent images of children. The idea of the participants being that if you shout about it enough, it will come to be an acceptable part of human behaviour. Yet all is in vain. For example, you are sitting in a pub and two men lovingly fondle each other. How do you feel ? Revulsion, or joy at the sight. Do you turn away, or do you report them to the landlord. Do you say to him it’s either them drinking here or me, and if I go I won’t be back again ever. They are ejected. Do you feel relief and or guilt.

The point is, it is the gay mens’ own SELFISHNESS and INDULGENCE that they value over rights of the rest of society. Which is to have nothing to do with them. What they should keep for the privacy of their own home, they wish to share with YOU !

The more homosexuals push forward their way of thinking, the more normal society will be angered...

12 January 2013 at 13:36  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

12 January 2013 at 14:06  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Kinderling, you're not the most coherent person at the best of times but if I understand at least some of what you're trying to say then you can keep your silly cod-psychology.

12 January 2013 at 14:07  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "For example, you are sitting in a pub and two men lovingly fondle each other. How do you feel ? Revulsion, or joy at the sight."

I feel the same as I do when I see a man and a woman doing the same thing. If they're heavy petting, as it used to be called, then I think it's inappropriate because it's private intimacy in public. I don't care a hoot whether a man and woman hold hands or snuggle. Of course, in some cultures even doing that is seen as inappropriate and causes social outrage. Heck, men walking around shirtless or women wearing teeshirts and shorts is seen as degenerate in some places.

12 January 2013 at 14:13  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

It wasn't all that long ago that the sight of a woman's well-turned ankle in public in the UK was enough to set some men's pulses racing. It sounds really quite daft now, and the social mores that tried to suppress it seem rather Taleban-esque in comparison to our ease about it now.

12 January 2013 at 14:18  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Kinderling

I actually agree with some of your last post.

The only thing missing in your philosophy is correct appreciation of the Gospel. God, in His wisdom, has given man a body and a mind as well as a soul. These three elements interact and impact on one another. You, in my opinion, have an incorrect understanding of this.

12 January 2013 at 14:18  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Dodo,

If there is something that secures your allegence, examine it. Compare it to other's affilliations. For in this world there is no attachement required.

The Homosexual has a emotional-mental attachment to sex. The awareness to naturally reproduce is replaced by indulgence in the form, to attach themselves to the other person as their validating savior. Two friends remain friends for life without ever the need to gloryfy each other.

The Christian has an emotional-mental attachment to God. Their awareness that god is in all things and needs no prompting is replaced by indulgence in The Form of ritual, to attach themselves to Their Savior. Two friends remain friends for life without the need to glorify each other.

Both people easily outraged by reality. They both go for the children's minds so the cannot be judged as lacking what the child already had: sanity.

To fill an emptiness crying out to be filled is not the solution. It is to find out why you do not hsving living water in the first place.

Their changing the world will not fix it.

12 January 2013 at 16:37  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Kinderling

I'm really not looking for a 'guru', mate. I understand the modern science on left and right brain functions; know about hypnosis and understand the physical, social and psychological development of people. You are letting the imagination of one side dominate the reason of the other.

The body and mind serve as barriers to accepting to Gospel - they can also be the pathway to Truth. Read scripture and you'll find it there. Read the words of Christ and you'll see He taught this too. He also claimed, with no doubt or confusion, to be God incarnate, eternal, uncreated, sent to redeem man through His death and resurrection.

Once you've re-read His temptation in the desert and Gethsemane, using your reason as well as your imagination, you might understand.

12 January 2013 at 16:51  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Ps
Are you afraid of reaching 60 years of age? Why is that? It arrives before you know and you ought to start preparing for it.

12 January 2013 at 17:04  
Blogger Chantry Priest said...

Dear Phil.
I think the point is rather
"What is called Christian today often means conforming to middle class values"
I was trying to say that in his tender years there was a Working Class Christianity, morality and culture that seems to have disappeared-officially at least.
You know the sort of thing "all council estates are full of lazy work shy chavs." {RW] or "dispossessed vulnerable poor" [LW].
Either way they ought to be forced or have social workers sent in for them to embrace "middle class values"
The problem is that MCV seem to be

Say a lot-mean nothing [and in many cases DO the opposite.

Do what thou wilt [because for MC Christians Jesus is nice, a feminist multiculturalist and everybody gets to heaven anyway].

All culture and education is "elitist and RW" and the poor don't understand it anyway.[in practice this means just for the MC's]

I don't need to comment on the fruits of this cult of selfishness has had on communities.

12 January 2013 at 17:08  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. we know your views about the condition of Africans. What would be a Christian solution to the problems you believe they face?

To solution to Africa’s problems are remarkably simple in principle at least. Dispense with the old European country defined boundaries and have tribal regions that belong to a United States of Sub Saharan Africa. At the moment, a tin pot dictator like Mugabe seizes power in an existing country, and installs members of his tribe in the government. Thus from day one, different tribe members in the country are immediately alienated. Alienation leads to sedition and before long another civil war breaks out. The rebels win, and repeat the same formula.

With a USSA, the fighting as such would be confined to arguing in congress and senate. Who knows, they might even elect a POTUSSA. Of course, all this change would be under the watchful (...and armed...) supervision of the United Nations., until the enterprise can stand up for itself. Leaving it to the Africans themselves is futile. but remember this, the tribe, and its king, is an immensely powerful unit of stability. Let’s use it for good.

The Africans threw out their colonisers. Now, have they got it them to demolish their half way house, to finish the revolution they started ?

12 January 2013 at 18:07  
Blogger len said...

Dodo (12 January 2013 14:18)

You see to have an incorrect understanding of the 'make up' of man, this is not surprising as the word 'soul' and 'spirit' are NOT interchangeable.

'The Soul 'consists of the mind will and emotions.

The Spirit is different altogether... there is the fallen corrupted human spirit,dead in sins closed off to God`s Spirit but open to all sorts of 'other spirits'.

And then there is the born again Spirit breathed on by the Spirit of God who breathes life into dead Spirits.

12 January 2013 at 18:14  
Blogger John Magee said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

12 January 2013 at 18:22  
Blogger John Magee said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

12 January 2013 at 18:30  
Blogger len said...

Unless we become aware of spiritual realities we will remain stumbling around in the dark searching for meaning in lives in areas that are totally unfulfilling.

The spirit of a 'lost person' is dead.It is this 'dead condition' that a person seeks things that will' enliven him'.Drugs,alcohol sex,ambition, wealth ''the right partner'fame,none of these will have lasting effect.There will always be a search for meaning for fulfilment.

It is only when things are returned to the original intention that God created for man that fulfillment will be found .It is a tragedy that many will never realise what God intended for man when He created him.
The Gospel has been all but lost amongst those who practice' religion' but not' relationship' 'which is the reason that Jesus came to Earth to restore the broken relationship between a Holy God and fallen man to restore Creation to God`s original intention.

12 January 2013 at 18:35  
Blogger John Magee said...


Dodo

It appears nothing has really changed. As proof, please read the lyrics below of one of Cole Porter's most famous songs which he wrote in 1934 for the New York Broadway Musical called "Anything Goes". Cole Porter composed music during a time when popular music touched people's emotions and also made them happy. It was the darkest time of the Great Depression and Porter was making fun of the idle rich.

He also wrote "Begin the Beguine", You're the Top!", "I Get a Kick out of you", "I've Got You Under My Skin" and a long list of other famous songs from the 1920's thru the 195's. Everyone familar with the music of that era must be familiar with them.

If you have ever heard "Beguine the Beguine" (1935) played by bandleader Artie who recorded an arrangement of the song, an extended swing orchestra version, it's perfection. Other versions are excellent too. "Beguine the Beguine" is my favorite song from that era.

Reading the lyrics while listening to the music would be best. In Youtube search box type:Anything Goes by Cole Porter. Click on third choice down showing an illustration of a woman's back wearing a blue sailor suit and a large hat. Cole Porter is atcually singing his own song accompanied by a band.

Lyrics

Anything Goes

Cole Porter USA 1934

Times have changed
And we've often rewound the clock
Since the Puritans got a shock
When they landed on Plymouth Rock.
If today
Any shock they should try to stem
'Stead of landing on Plymouth Rock,
Plymouth Rock would land on them.

Refrain 1

In olden days, a glimpse of stocking
Was looked on as something shocking.
But now, God knows,
Anything goes.
Good authors too who once knew better words
Now only use four-letter words
Writing prose.
Anything goes.
If driving fast cars you like,
If low bars you like,
If old hymns you like,
If bare limbs you like,
If Mae West you like,
Or me undressed you like,
Why, nobody will oppose.
When ev'ry night the set that's smart is in-
Truding in nudist parties in
Studios.
Anything goes.

Refrain 2

When Missus Ned McLean (God bless her)
Can get Russian reds to "yes" her,
Then I suppose
Anything goes.
When Rockefeller still can hoard en-
Ough money to let Max Gordon
Produce his shows,
Anything goes.
The world has gone mad today
And good's bad today,
And black's white today,
And day's night today,
And that gent today
You gave a cent today
Once had several chateaux.
When folks who still can ride in jitneys
Find out Vanderbilts and Whitneys
Lack baby clo'es,
Anything goes.

Refrain 3

If Sam Goldwyn can with great conviction
Instruct Anna Sten in diction,
Then Anna shows
Anything goes.
When you hear that Lady Mendl standing up
Now turns a handspring landing up-
On her toes,
Anything goes.
Just think of those shocks you've got
And those knocks you've got
And those blues you've got
From that news you've got
And those pains you've got
(If any brains you've got)
From those little radios.
So Missus R., with all her trimmin's,
Can broadcast a bed from Simmons
'Cause Franklin knows
Anything goes.

12 January 2013 at 18:51  
Blogger len said...

Some of the' old time hymn writers'had a true revelation of what the Gospel was about and put it in words that could be easily understood by those who sang them (I beg His Graces indulgence)


'And can it be that I should gain
An interest in the Savior’s blood?
Died He for me, who caused His pain—
For me, who Him to death pursued?
Amazing love! How can it be,
That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?
Amazing love! How can it be,
That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?

’Tis mystery all: th’Immortal dies:
Who can explore His strange design?
In vain the firstborn seraph tries
To sound the depths of love divine.
’Tis mercy all! Let earth adore,
Let angel minds inquire no more.
’Tis mercy all! Let earth adore;
Let angel minds inquire no more.

He left His Father’s throne above
So free, so infinite His grace—
Emptied Himself of all but love,
And bled for Adam’s helpless race:
’Tis mercy all, immense and free,
For O my God, it found out me!
’Tis mercy all, immense and free,
For O my God, it found out me!

Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray—
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.

Still the small inward voice I hear,
That whispers all my sins forgiven;
Still the atoning blood is near,
That quenched the wrath of hostile Heaven.
I feel the life His wounds impart;
I feel the Savior in my heart.
I feel the life His wounds impart;
I feel the Savior in my heart.

No condemnation now I dread;
Jesus, and all in Him, is mine;
Alive in Him, my living Head,
And clothed in righteousness divine,
Bold I approach th’eternal throne,
And claim the crown, through Christ my own.
Bold I approach th’eternal throne,
And claim the crown, through Christ my own.'


(This is the Gospel put simply but succinctly)

12 January 2013 at 19:13  
Blogger John Magee said...

len

Don't dispair. Look at Church history. The Church (Catholic and Protestant) has literally "scene it all before".

When the Christian Roman Empire collaped in the 4th century AD things looked pretty bleak. It took an Irish monk named Columba who took his monks from Ulster in 563 AD to a remote Island called Iona off the west coast of Scotland where they built a monastery which he used as a base for his monks to bring the light of Christianity to Scotland and back to parts of Northern Europe. Even as far south as northern Italy.

Years ago I was visiting a german friend and his wife in Regensburg, Germany (Bavaria)and was surprised to see a church there called Jacobkirche built in the 12th century over an older church built in the 6th century by Iro-Scots monks from Iona. The main doorway in this ancient Roman Catholic church is still the Scots Gate (Schottenportal)and is the only surving part of the original church the Irish and Scots monks built 500 years before the "new" church was built in the 12th century.

Sadly the reality of today is that everything in our culture points to a bleak future for Christianity and all people of faith in the West. Ancient Christain Churches in the Middle East face extermination and the worst of it is we brought it upon ourselves. The mess we are in today was created with the help of our of our church leadership who took part in this catastrophe starting with Vatican II and are at work today still as we witness the C of E of commiting churhicide. All of them are trying to "modernize" but in reality are destroying 2,000 years of Christianity and Christian culture which can never be rebuilt again.

The good news is that a smaller version of Christianity will emerge in the West stronger than ever as it grows in numbers in Asia and Africa.

12 January 2013 at 19:19  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...



"because for MC Christians Jesus is nice, a feminist multiculturalist and everybody gets to heaven anyway"

Lets break this down

Jesus is nice.... Yes, people were and are drawm to him.

A feminist.... depends what you mean here. Women were certainly valued the same as men.

multiculturalist......depends what you mean here…… all races can find salvation ... ….Christianity is not cuturally dependant.

Everybody gets to heaven who gives their life for and puts their trust in Jesus.

Most people prefer Hell. CJ Lewis "The Great Divorce" Or Lazarus and the rich man. Luke 16

Phil

12 January 2013 at 19:29  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

ken

We've covered this before!

You're simply expounding one of the earliest errors among Christian writers — the doctrine of the Trichotomy.

According to this perfect man consists of three parts: body, soul, spirit. Body and soul come by natural generation; spirit is given to the regenerate Christian alone.

Thus, the "newness of life", of which St. Paul speaks, was conceived by some as a superadded entity, a kind of oversoul sublimating the "natural man" into a higher species. This doctrine is, of course a misreading of St. Paul and an old gnostic heresy.

Man is an integrated whole - mind, body and soul. The terms spirit and soul are used interchangeably in the bible and in different senses.

Genesis 2:7 tells us that God formed man's body from the ground, breathed into him the breath (spirit) of life, and so "man became a living soul". Here the term "soul" is used to refer to the whole man, composed of both body and spirit.

A different use is found in Revelation 6:9 and 20:4, where John sees the souls of those who have been slain for the gospel. Here "soul" obviously does not refer to the whole, embodied person, but to the immaterial part, the spirit, that survives death.

In two Bible verses (1 Thess. 5:23 and Heb. 4:12) "soul" and "spirit" seem to be used in distinct senses, but this does not prove the existence of two immaterial substances in man. The authors use Hebrew parallelism for poetic effect; they are not talking about constituent parts of man.

As the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches "Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit . . . The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul. 'Spirit' signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can graciously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God".

Hope this helps.

12 January 2013 at 19:30  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

John Magee

Now all we need is another verse updating the song to include the acceptance of modern immorality.

And Saint Ninian brought the Christian message to Scotland before Saint Columba! He landed on the Isle of Whithorn.

Tradition holds that Ninian was a Briton who had studied in Rome, that he established an episcopal see at the Candida Casa in Whithorn, that he named the see for Saint Martin of Tours, that he converted the southern Picts to Christianity, and that he is buried at Whithorn.

12 January 2013 at 19:36  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Danjo

"the laws you find positive put homosexuals in prison for a year, 5 years, fourteen years"

Lets be clear here.....

If a man breaks into your house and threatens your family what does man do?

Meekly give in?

No you throw everything at them. The furniture the kitchen knives everything. If you have a gun you use that also.

You do everything to protect your family.

We are at war and in a war you use every weapon you have .....and fight!

True homosexuality is not the only attack on the family. Drugs, porn and the media are keen to destroy what after God a Christian man values most.

If it wasn't a war then no pressure would be applied to those countries that try to protect it citizens.


Phil





12 January 2013 at 19:55  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Phil: "We are at war and in a war you use every weapon you have .....and fight!"

I expect some Muslims think that in Egypt when they're setting fire to churches and killing Coptic Christians. You're one of those religious people, I think. The oppressors, I mean. What would you do if you had religious power like in the past? Hang us from cranes like in Iran? And claim you were doing it for your god and to protect society?

12 January 2013 at 20:07  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I was described as paranoid earlier too. I wasn't expecting something rather worse.

12 January 2013 at 20:11  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

OIG

Of course, all this change would be under the watchful (...and armed...) supervision of the United Nations., until the enterprise can stand up for itself.

One small problem. The United Nations does not have an army. The 'soldiers' at its disposition often seem more interested in child prostitution than in whatever alleged mission they were ostensibly dispatched to perform. Now, if you want to send an actual professional army (like, say, from the UK) then you would have to convince the body politic that this idea benefits the national interest. You would also have to raise that army and pay for it somehow. Not very likely in present circumstances.

carl

12 January 2013 at 20:29  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Carl, no problem. If the UK can support an army in Afghanistan to enforce US interests, we can pull it out and send it to Johannesburg, with just a word in Mr Churchill’s ear, as the song goes, where it can do some real benefit, for people worth saving. If the US wants to turn Afghanistan upside down it can do it on it’s own.

12 January 2013 at 20:53  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

DanJo

"What would you do if you had religious power like in the past? Hang us from cranes like in Iran? "

Paranoia again... When was any homosexual hung from cranes by christains?

However, what would you do if you have power again like the previous atheist states?

THe thing is we know what you will do when the atheisits have their way.

It has happpened before, millions died and society lost all hope, pride and honour.

To save a million should we hang 5? THe atheist would not blink at doing so as he is his own authority. The Christian has to answer to God. There is the answer to your question and why a Christian man needs to draw Biblical lines in the sand and say I will not cross them, neither should we allow anyone else to to overrule what God has decided is good to attack our families.

BACK TO THE POST Are we men going to stick together as brothers in Christ or be destroyed as individuals in our little Churches?

Phil




12 January 2013 at 21:17  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Inspector

So you view the problems in Africa as social and cultural, and not due to any inherent racial inferiority or low IQ?

12 January 2013 at 21:20  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

OIG

There is of course a huge difference between contributing to an operation and running that operation. You haven't quite wrapped your mind around the scale of the effort you are proposing. You haven't got an army big enough to accomplish the task. Nor do you have the logistics capabilities needed to support it. Nor do you have the political will to sustain it. It's a much bigger task then sending some troops to Johannesburg - who btw would manifestly not be received as selfless carriers of the White Man's Burden. But I will admit that European colonial presence is the source of the problem. After all, the British Empire was not present in South Africa to export European civilization.

carl

12 January 2013 at 21:27  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Phil

Are we men going to stick together as brothers in Christ or be destroyed as individuals in our little Churches?

The Church is stronger today in China than in Europe. Why do you suppose that is? The Church isn't going to be destroyed. It can't be destroyed.

Stay faithful. Testify to the Truth. Otherwise, know that God is in His heaven, and all is right with the world. All may not be right with us in a temporal sense. But aren't we always subject to being poured out like a drink offering? And unlike others we have not yet been required to resist unto blood.

God isn't surprised by things. Neither is He wringing his hands in nervous frustration. He watches carefully to see that His word is fulfilled - to the very last jot and tittle.

carl

12 January 2013 at 21:37  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo, no where will you find that the Inspector has ever referred to ‘racial inferiority’. What you HAVE read from him is the identifying of racial traits of which some cause problems. For the individual as well as society. Low IQ is just one of those traits. But don’t let the truth get in the way of giving the Inspector a good scolding, that judgmental bird...


12 January 2013 at 21:51  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Carl, we’ll wait and see then. Of course, if Africa thrives and people start migrating into the continent, instead of getting the hell out of it, then all will be well.

Do you know, the Inspector is beginning to revise his opinion of you as good counsel. Too much of the negative about you. Far too much...


12 January 2013 at 21:56  
Blogger John Magee said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

12 January 2013 at 21:59  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

John, haven’t read your latest yet, but the idea of a ‘Gay in Residence’. Excellent ! Sounds like an official post in Cranmer's palace. On the staff, no less. As Blofeld might say, chortles aplenty...what !


12 January 2013 at 22:07  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

OIG

Do you know, the Inspector is beginning to revise his opinion of you as good counsel. Too much of the negative about you. Far too much...

Ironic considering the post I made to Phil @21:37. Everything I said to you was true. Without exception. That's why you didn't bother trying to contradict my argument. Why then do you accuse the messenger for telling the truth?

carl

12 January 2013 at 22:23  
Blogger John Magee said...

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12 January 2013 at 22:39  
Blogger John Magee said...

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12 January 2013 at 22:53  
Blogger John Magee said...

carl jacobs

It's now official.We just lost the war in Afganistan. As soon as USA and other NATO troops leave it will collapse into the chaos of warring tribes. The radical Muslims or the Taliban will take over Afghanistan again. It was all for nothing. All the lives lost, suffering, cost. For nothing.

President Karzai of Afghanistan and his cronies have pocked billions in aid the USA, the UK and others gave his country in their Swiss bank acounts and laugh at what fools we are.

Obama can go to hell. I wonder what that rat prays for on his prayer rug facing Mecca every night. Victory for the pagan moon god of Mecca no doubt.

Leaving Afghanistan will be the icing on the cake for the coming catastrophe in the Middle East. Of course Afghanistan isn't part of the Middle East but it is Iran's neighbor to the NE and the dream of Iran (and of the late Osama Bin Laden) can be now fullfilled. That dream is the creation of a modern Caliphate Islamic Empire)led by Iran will come to fruition and envelope Pakistan,Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Kybia, Tunesia, Algeria, Morocco, Somalia, etc eventually all the way to the most populous Muslim nation on earth: Indonesia.

People who warned of this possibility a few years ago during the overblown drama and hope in the Western media about the "Arab Spring" and long before were laughed at.

What do you think of Obama's new head of the CIA who said in 2010 at a speech in New York City talking about his visit to Indonesia as a young man in the 1970's:

“despite my long hair, my earring and my obvious American appearance, I was welcomed throughout that country, in a way that is a reflection of the tremendous warmth of Islamic cultures and societies"

So we now have a former dope smoking hippy as head of the CIA.

That's not unusual. We have a former (or maybe still) admitted cocaine and dope smoking President in the White House.

Brennan also so this:

"Islam also helped to shape my world view"

He is now head of the CIA!!!!

Brennan is one more example of a 60's left wing hippy type now wearing a suit who have caused so much damage in the UK, the USA, and other Western countries in the past decade. What is totally insane is that he is taking over the one of the three most important intelligence agency's in the world. The USA CIA, the UK MI6, and the French DGSE and he also happens to be very "Muslim friendly".

With this man in charge of the CIA it staggers the immigination when considering the possibilities of infiltration of the CIA by Muslim radicals which will be wide open with a man like this in charge.

@ for the edification of the resident Gay

I would think any Gays here would be deeply concerned about the treatment of Gays in Egypt now that Islamic law of Sharia will be the law of Egypt and Gays will be rounded up or if they are caught having sex with other men ordered to be killed by this Koran inspired law.

Isn't the "Arab Spring" wonderful?

12 January 2013 22:53

12 January 2013 at 23:13  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

John, Elitism is tomorrows norm. One is so envious of the educated young in this country. To be in their confidence would be an honour, but as we ourselves kept our inner thoughts to ourselves at their age, so will they. They are only one generation behind us, we’ll find out eventually...

Carl. The Inspector concedes your rallying call to Phil. But you yourself must concede that it is against your grain. You place yourself above an issue and split the difference for us. You give us the good and your give us the bad, in the best tradition of an assessor. But what this man said to you before, he’ll repeat. He wouldn’t want to be stuck in the same fox hole as you in battle...


13 January 2013 at 00:27  
Blogger Kinderling said...

To unite Mankind under one God, is like building the Tower of Babel and it splinters into different sects.

Call no man Dog or God; they do not retrieve and they do not Receive.

13 January 2013 at 01:43  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

OIG

But of course this isn't a foxhole. This is a weblog. It is (one would hope) a place to discuss issues of weight in contemporary life. We should face those issues with clear and pitiless eyes. We should not indulge ourselves with romantic dreams. So when, say, DanJ0 comes onto this board and points out the minuscule percentage of Christians in contemporary England, we shouldn't respond with meaningless declarations of nominal church membership that bear no relation to what people actually believe or how those people actually live. We should face the truth however unpalatable or difficult we might find it. If I come across as negative, it is because I can see clearly that contemporary western culture is systematically and intentionally stripping itself of its Christian character. There isn't much positive going on from our point of view. We can pretend this isn't the case, but it is the case. We are losing the battle for Western culture on virtually every front.

But I am a Calvinist, you see. And so I understand that God's Providence is not intended to lift up and glorify the Western nations. He intends to work His will to redeem and sanctify a people. What we see is not what He sees. What we purpose is not what he purposes. That doesn't mean what is happening to us is any less painful. It means it all has purpose within the ultimate outworking of God's plan to redeem a people for Himself. What happens to us in this life is ultimately of very little value. The Last Day is what matters - when even DanJ0 himself will confess with his own mouth what he has heretofore denied - that Jesus Christ is Lord.

That confidence allows me the luxury of objectivity. I don't twist my stomach in knots over the decline of the West. It will happen or it won't. God will still be glorified, and I will will still stand on the Last Day when the nations have been burned and their flags and traditions as well. Is God any less God because the nations rebel against Him and do as they desire? Will the Final Judgment be set aside because men declare themselves beyond divine jurisdiction? Will even so much as one of the Elect be overlooked? No, no, and again no.

This is God's universe, and it proceeds according to His decree. In the end, the Redeemed will recognize what in this life they can only see with dim eyes - what it means to say that all things work together for the good of those whom He loves and has called to receive eternal life. There is never reason to despair. Because we do not despair, we can observe the present world with confident eyes and never flinch at what we see before us. It may not be pleasant for the moment, but it all works toward the inevitable desired end.

carl

13 January 2013 at 02:41  
Blogger John Magee said...

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13 January 2013 at 04:36  
Blogger John Magee said...

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13 January 2013 at 05:44  
Blogger John Magee said...

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13 January 2013 at 05:50  
Blogger John Magee said...

Inspector

From reading your posts over the past several months I sense you have an excellent general knowledge of history and of current events. That knowledge along with your first hand observations from your travels and your inate common sense tells me you need not envy any so called "educated" young people today. Atcually, from the way you handle yourself here, I can imagine a lot of young people would really enjoy discussing the stuff we talk about here with you at your local pub. They would probably disagree with you on many points but would also like and respect you. Of that I am certain.

Maybe you could "unbrainwash" a few from the Politically Correct nonsense they've been fed at their schools today which has turned too many young minds into mush today.

13 January 2013 at 07:14  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

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13 January 2013 at 08:54  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Carl: "The Last Day is what matters - when even DanJ0 himself will confess with his own mouth what he has heretofore denied - that Jesus Christ is Lord."

I'll just say I simply didn't know for certain and that if I had been given a proper choice, like its angelic beings who know it exists, then I'd accept responsibility for any subsequent rebellion. It created us as rational but emotional beings bound in a reality which deliberately limits our perceptions so I don't suppose it will have much of a comeback.

13 January 2013 at 09:00  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Phil: "Paranoia again... When was any homosexual hung from cranes by christains?"

Phil, in the post I was responding to you say people should do everything they can to fight when under threat, including using knives and guns, and the overall context of our discussion is about your perceived threat of homosexuality. In fact, you quote some of my words about prison sentences in the African countries whose laws you think are a positive thing, and in that quote is one of 14 years. That is, for two adults engaging in private, consensual sex they risk a sentence of 14 years in an African prison. There seems to be a huge disconnect between what you actually write and what you would have me subsequently believe when I challenge you on the violent, distasteful and illiberal nature of it.

13 January 2013 at 09:04  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

DanJo

THere is a huge disconnect from what you think I write and when I expalin it to you.

Hence the paranoia statement

Phil

13 January 2013 at 09:06  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Phil, are you or are you not prepared to put homosexual adults in prison for 14 years, or for life, or impose the death penalty, if they have consensual sex? Afterall, you say you see those laws as a positive thing. I find them profoundly illiberal and unjust myself.

Also, when you say "Lets be clear here....." and then go on to talk about the use of guns and knives before concluding with "We are at war and in a war you use every weapon you have .....and fight!" don't you see how that might come across? What weapons do you actually have access to when you come to fight us if you intend to fight with every one?

13 January 2013 at 09:16  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

While most people in the UK don't seem to care these days, there are a minority who are violent towards homosexuals. You have to be careful at times. For instance, one of my friends was walking down the High Street in Southampton not that long ago simply holding hands with his partner and someone came up and punched him in the face. Periodically, someone is murdered in the UK specifically because they're gay. This is not abstract stuff we're talking about here.

13 January 2013 at 09:27  
Blogger Chantry Priest said...

<+b>Phil<-b>
Thanks for your comment,I suspect you really know exactly what I mean though.
However....
Jesus was good, not "nice." To me the word implies the indulgence given to spoilt brats [of all ages] when excuses are made for their behaviour. Jesus never did that, he challenged behaviour and expected it to change. Yes, people were drawn to him but an awful lot weren't-mainly from the "respectable" middle class of the day-the pharisees. After all who was Jesus? An unemployed unqualified carpenter's son living on handouts.
<+b>feminist<-b> Jesus was not a mysogynist and he valued women-as women. The women in the Gospels [excluding the supplicants] appear as carers and comtemplatives, not as psuedo-men taking on men's roles.
<+b>multiculturalist<-b> Perhaps a better word would have been "relatavist." Even so, Jesus was, by today's standards, a cultural imperialist. His God was the only, true God. Salvation comes through Him to the Father. All races have to abandon their false gods. Their culture has to be Christianised [NB I do not mean "Westernised"].
<+b>Everybody gets to Heaven anyway<-b> Nope, they don't. It is a commonly held view that it is first the Apostles and then the Church that frightened people with Hell-fire. Not so. It was Jesus Himself who lays down explicit instructions for those who wish to avoid it. This is direct contradiction to modern funeral rites that "celebrate" the life of the deceased instead of fervently praying for the remission of the sin he had committed.
In short, to quote Lewis again. "He is not a tame Lion"

13 January 2013 at 10:40  
Blogger Chantry Priest said...

PS I'm going to have to find out how to use these dratted by-our-Lady tags properly!!!

13 January 2013 at 10:42  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

It's < b > and < / b > without the spaces. Functions a and i work too for links and italics, respectively.

13 January 2013 at 10:47  
Blogger Kinderling said...


It's truth and repentence without the spaces. Functions 'forgiveness' and 'love' work too for links and empathics, respectively.

13 January 2013 at 11:18  
Blogger Chantry Priest said...

Dear DanJ0

Ta ever so

13 January 2013 at 11:24  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Carl. Perhaps the Inspector has been too hard on you. It is not so much growling at the messenger, but the delivery of the message. Or perhaps it’s the pre-destination your religion announces. ‘Here it is and nothing can be done’ feeling we get after you’ve posted. It’s so wrong. Nothing is pre-destined as such, it’s still all up for grabs. We are not partaking in a play, we are stumbling along in the best tradition of humanity. Hope springs eternal, that man. Without it, we trulyOn are lost.

On a brighter note, and you having mentioned him, have you noticed DanJ0’s justification for homosexual wants, needs, and vociferous demands is becoming increasingly bizarre. He is reduced to commentating on church attendance, and equating that to the relatively tiny number of homosexuals in society, as if there was any significant mileage in that. Combine that with his lumping in of tolerant Christianity to gay persecuting Islam as ‘religion’ on every other occasion and we find a man who has nothing left to say...

13 January 2013 at 12:14  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I see you're back on board again, Inspector. I suppose you deserve praise for taking a week longer than your sidekick to get back into your normal mode of operation.

13 January 2013 at 12:22  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Hardly fighting talk from the Inspector DanJ0. You shouldn’t be so sensitive. You post, it gets criticised. Welcome to blog world...

13 January 2013 at 12:31  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

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13 January 2013 at 12:35  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

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13 January 2013 at 12:35  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

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13 January 2013 at 12:36  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Well, no doubt there will be more of it later when you fill yourself with beer and write about sodomy yet again from your well of self-loathing and ennui.

13 January 2013 at 12:37  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Good Lord DanJ0 !

What a foul mood we find you in !

13 January 2013 at 12:39  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Hardly. It's a lovely, sunny day outside here. Cold and crisp. It's a joy to be alive. It's the juxtaposition of that with your pointless, trouble-making little snipe back there that generates a frisson of contempt in me.

13 January 2013 at 12:49  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Damn you DanJ0. The Inspector is usually cock a hoop when one of his hits home, but not today.

13 January 2013 at 12:54  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "The Inspector is usually cock a hoop when one of his hits home"

And there we have it: a confession.

I'd suggest you save it for your priest but, well, I doubt you even have one.

13 January 2013 at 12:58  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

DanJ0 also plays the "they're going to lock us up and kill us" card to create the lie that Christians mean him and his co-homosexualists harm.

Christians simply want to protect society and, in particular, the young from the perverse notion that same sex marriage and sex is legitimate and has no adverse consequences for individuals or communities. Neither do we want the impressionable exposed to the sordid details of homosexual carnality.

Have we been too accommodating? With hindsight, I'd say we have. Leave private acts of homosexuality decriminalised provided noone under 21 years of age is not seduced by an older man; criminalise public acts such as 'cottaging' and in your face displays designed to inflame passion; and make the promotion of homosexuality in education and on our television sets illegal.

Leave them alone to live peacefully and quietly. However, it's time to stop all this liberal, 'nicey-nicey', we love you too, nonsense. Look where its led us! The Conservative Party now has it as policy to permit same sex 'marriage'! The future of our society is at stake!

13 January 2013 at 13:11  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

And I note our resident homosexualist is back to his usual tactic of constructing 'themes' about other bloggers.

13 January 2013 at 13:17  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

As you can see above, I'm still waiting for an answer from Phil as to whether he wants homosexual adults locked up in prison or even executed for having consensual sex in the UK like they have in a number of Africa countries. In his own words:

"It is sad to hear that homosexuality has now reached that part of Africa, but the positive thing is that they have formulated laws to limit it despite huge criticism from the West, especially the UK and US who are threatening to cut off all Aid unless they give homosexuals their “rights”."

I doubt most Christians in the UK want something as draconian as that these days. Well, I hope not anyway. I have to remind myself that most Christians are probably not like many of the Christians who post comments here in real life.

13 January 2013 at 13:26  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "And I note our resident homosexualist is back to his usual tactic of constructing 'themes' about other bloggers."

I see our faux-Catholic is here straight out of the box with his bundles of wood and flaming brand when there's any hint of trouble. Jesus must be so, so pleased about some of the stuff some people do in his name, if he exists of course.

13 January 2013 at 13:30  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Indeed Dodo. The lad’s stance is particularly pitiful today. “Why are you all after me. Why can’t you leave us all alone and let us pervert marriage, enrol, seduce and infect your children, and generally shove homosexuality up everyone’s nose”

And now, he seriously expects Phil to fulfil his ‘victim’ persona, of wanting the UK to execute gays. Remarkable, what !


13 January 2013 at 13:40  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Well, it looks like we're all finally back in position again. It must be quite a relief for you two. When should I start mentioning your latent homosexuality, Inspector?

13 January 2013 at 13:47  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Inspector

Indeed. But don't "bully" the poor soul as he's sensitive and fragile. Apparently, I've been doing so for the past 18 months in an attempt to drive him from this august blog.

13 January 2013 at 13:47  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

You've been trying to do that, Dodo. It's not been a great success though, has it? In fact, you've been humiliated so much over that period that I'd be surprised you don't go into the foetal position by default now after switching off.

13 January 2013 at 13:50  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Oh here we go - again!

I'm not playing this 'forum game' anymore, sweetie. You're pathetic pleas of oppression are so tiresome and admittedly I'm biased but I'd say you're the one who's been shown up for what you are.

Now trot off.

13 January 2013 at 13:54  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

The Inspector is off for his Sunday afternoon constitutional. He finds this ‘pre test results’ anxiety tedious too...

13 January 2013 at 13:58  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "The Inspector is off for his Sunday afternoon constitutional."

I'll bet. You will jog past that bar now on the way, won't you? I know what you're like when you've had beer and that side of you has been awakened.

13 January 2013 at 14:06  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...



Carl

"God isn't surprised by things. Neither is He wringing his hands in nervous frustration. He watches carefully to see that His word is fulfilled - to the very last jot and tittle."


I do have a problem with the theology that suggests as you seem to that we are a small part of God's computer programme.

The Bible verses are there I know that suggest that this might be so, but to me I find this very difficult to accept. If accept this view then you would accept the God built DanJo to sin and not to love God. Hell fodder if you like. Also we were built to worship and love God, but in your world we are no better than "Stepford Wives". For this reason, I believe that we need free will in order to have any valid worship. In your world there would be no need of prayer, confession, and indeed good works of any kind.

The worst part (and the most difficult) perhaps is that Evil would be something that God creates. So evil and suffering is something that God is happy with.

Phil

13 January 2013 at 14:26  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

DanJo

Let us just say that I would prefer it if laws against homosexuality were not necessary in these African countries.

However, they do have the right to protect their citizens and we are not living there.

Phil

13 January 2013 at 14:31  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

DanJ0

Are you trying to damage this blog? Your last post is "indicative". I think.

Do grow up and just state your arguments.

13 January 2013 at 14:39  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Phil: "Let us just say that I would prefer it if laws against homosexuality were not necessary in these African countries. However, they do have the right to protect their citizens and we are not living there."

You seem very reluctant to actually say whether you think something similarly "positive" should be done here. It's not a crime to have illiberal and distasteful views when compared to the rest of us, you know.

13 January 2013 at 14:50  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

DAnJo

These are democratic governments passing these laws to protect their citizens.

I thought you were all for that sort of thing.

It is me that does not believe in democracy (I have voted once)

Or is democracy only OK when it suits you?

Phil

13 January 2013 at 15:13  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Phil

In the West we are in a different position to Africa with a well established legal systems, democratic processes and a foundation of Christian ethics and morality - the latter being under attack.

My position is:

Leave private acts of homosexuality and any other objective sin or acts of immorality alone. Leave these decriminalised provided they stay private and no one under 21 years of age is seduced by an older man. If they enter the public sphere use the full force of the law.

Re-criminalise public acts such as 'cottaging' and in your face displays designed to inflame public passion and make the promotion of homosexuality in education and on our television sets illegal.

Leave individuals alone in their sin to live quietly. However, it's time to stop all this liberal, 'nicey-nicey', we love you too nonsense. Look where its led us!

It is morally wrong to kill or maim homosexuals and we should say so. However, ways do have to be found to limit the harm of the homosexualist lobby that has infected our public institutions by stealth since the 1960's.

13 January 2013 at 15:19  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Phil: "These are democratic governments passing these laws to protect their citizens."

It'll be a democratic government which passes a law which allows same-sex couples to marry too. However, everyone can still have an opinion in a free society like ours. I'm asking for your opinion about the UK since you thought it was a positive thing for those African countries. However, you are still reluctant to say, choosing to evade the question yet again. It's got to the point where it's reasonable to assume by your silence that you would be in favour of imprisoning, perhaps even executing, homosexuals like those laws allow in those African countries, despite the fluff the two forum irritants are throwing up about my playing some sort of victim card. Otherwise, you'd surely just say our current laws are fine.

13 January 2013 at 15:47  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Dod: "Leave private acts of homosexuality and any other objective sin or acts of immorality alone... If they enter the public sphere use the full force of the law. "

When a man has slept with half the Cabinet, he has the keys to their policy.

If noxious toxins were allowed to spread into every living room, and you declared, 'as long as the doors are closed!'

You are like a person who says leave acts of immorality alone... oh, you did say it.

13 January 2013 at 16:01  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


DanJ0 in response to Phil. It's got to the point where it's reasonable to assume by your silence that you would be in favour of imprisoning, perhaps even executing, homosexuals like those laws allow in those African countries,

REASONABLE !!!. What the hell is wrong with you today ??? A this moment in time, you wouldn’t know ‘reasonable’ if it walked up and smacked you in the mouth...

Stop playing the victim card. It’s getting to the point where what you are posting is embarrassing....

13 January 2013 at 16:18  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Kinderling

So what would you do? Hypnotise them all and get their right-left brains in sync and their frontal lobes sorted with chanting and meditation?

DnJ0 said ...

"I'm asking for your opinion about the UK since you thought it was a positive thing for those African countries."

No he's not. He's attempting to get you voice extreme views before claiming you're a homophobe.

"However, you are still reluctant to say, choosing to evade the question yet again."

Tut, tut, a person is entitled not to answer leading questions and to reframe them if he chooses.

"It's got to the point where it's reasonable to assume by your silence that you would be in favour of imprisoning, perhaps even executing, homosexuals like those laws allow in those African countries ..."

Oooo ... now he knows you mind.

" ... despite the fluff the two forum irritants are throwing up about my playing some sort of victim card. Otherwise, you'd surely just say our current laws are fine."

It's not either our laws are fine or Africa's are, now is it? Something of a false dichotomy between two extremes.

And, by the way, so glad he is irritated by his 'debating' tactics being exposed.

13 January 2013 at 16:22  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector, I think almost everyone here has been embarrassed many times by what you post, especially the racist and homophobic ranty stuff, but we manage to get by. If you don't feel you can cope then feel free to not read my comments, or mention my name like you did when this kicked off. You'd be doing me a favour, too.

13 January 2013 at 16:26  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Inspector

Trust you enjoyed your walk and it has relaxed you.

Looks like the resident homosexualist wants to stir up trouble (again) and descend to personal abuse. Best to ignore direct conversation with him.

13 January 2013 at 16:27  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "No he's not. He's attempting to get you voice extreme views before claiming you're a homophobe."

Obviously you've been trying to set up your so-called drama triangle stuff to give you 'permission' to mount attacks again for your own perverse pleasures but I think you know, despite your fluff earlier, that there are extreme views lurking there. It's interesting, isn't it? If I expressed a view that it's a positive thing Muslims in the Egypt are removing that Coptic Christian threat to Islamic society and its absolute morality from their lands then I'd be torn apart here.

13 January 2013 at 16:31  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

And you'd deserve to be too.

Do get it into your rather paranoid head that no one is saying homosexuals should be rooted out and hung or maimed! The form of Christianity in Africa advocating the death penalty and lengthy prison terms is fuelled by fundamentalist evangelicals and is not inspired by the Gospel.

But you know this, don't you? Maybe Phil does hold extreme views; I really don't know and neither do you. What is clear is that you want him to provoke him. If he does hold such opinions, then goading him to express these in an exchange driven by personal acriminony isn't helpful.

13 January 2013 at 16:41  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo, a reminder:

"Best to ignore direct conversation with him."

Couldn't you take your own advice?

"Do get it into your rather paranoid head that no one is saying homosexuals should be rooted out and hung or maimed! The form of Christianity in Africa advocating the death penalty and lengthy prison terms is fuelled by fundamentalist evangelicals and is not inspired by the Gospel."

I think you ought to go back and read the original comment rather than construct the argument, which has nothing really to do with you, into something you'd prefer it to be instead of what it is.

13 January 2013 at 16:50  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Greetings Dodo, one does enjoy taking the air on a Sunday.

DanJ0, how remiss of you, missing out Sexist like that...

Homophobe – to deny the homosexual community their every whim.

Racist – to have the temerity to suggest the races can vary in their attitude, thoughts, acts, values, etc.

Sexist – to maintain the genders are different yet equal, and when combined one and one, present a powerful unit.


13 January 2013 at 16:56  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "What is clear is that you want him to provoke him."

Having told me I'm paranoid right at the start when I said this:

"Your support for laws which in some places seek to kill us in state sanctioned murder in order to limit people's freedom to express their sexual orientation is pretty distasteful too." 12 January 2013 09:26

I was trying to clear up what he actually meant when he said those laws were a "positive thing". Clearly they are traumatising the people labelled as homosexual over there, and forcing homosexuals into a secret life, as our illiberal but laws did over here pre-1967. They're a pretty negative thing, I'd say, in humanitarian terms at least.

13 January 2013 at 16:59  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


DanJ0, or mention my name like you did when this kicked off.

Confounded cheek Sir !

You are in actuality, sore with Phil Roberts posts. The man is a fellow Christian – what did you expect him to say ? Express his thanks to the homosexual community as you weep and cry over your ‘rights’ or as this man calls it, ‘special privileges and unwarranted concessions’...


13 January 2013 at 17:18  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Just trying to clarify matters before having a sensible discussion. Yeah sure you were DanJ0.

The more discerning amongst know your games.

13 January 2013 at 17:27  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

*shrug*

If you like.

13 January 2013 at 17:29  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Anyway, forum irritants aside, I'm quite looking forward to this on Tuesday:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9798013/Christians-face-judgement-day-in-Strasbourg-right-to-wear-the-cross-case.html

I'd be happy for employers to be given the final say on uniform etc and then for the courts to make specific exceptions to specific requirements like they did for Sikh turbans and safety gear.

If it goes the other way then the likely conundrums will be interesting in their own way, such as Muslims insisting on similar rights to various things too. It might mean that eventually all this stuff will be tidied up properly.

13 January 2013 at 17:38  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

"forum irritants aside"

*rolls eyes*

13 January 2013 at 17:49  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Dodo,

It is to unhypnotise. A reality check. You fornicate, have a baby, you pay or the Work House. You have AIDS from commitment-free bonbons? You pay for your own treatment.

The fruit of these munckins should not be paid for out of your pocket to feed and educate your family.

Its as simple as that. Not, 'it's OK to live by your lifestyle, but..'

You don't give them any quarter, or else they will come back and kick your butt. And no Charity Status for religious breeding grounds either.

(No chanting or reciting the Rosary was made in this presentation)

13 January 2013 at 18:46  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

DanJo

I do not lose a lot of sleep one way or the other if homosexuals are imprisoned in Africa for something that is legal to do here.

There are lots of things you can do abroad which you would be imprisoned for here. Does this make our laws wrong?

What interests me is the long term outcomes. Are African countries going to be bullied into submission or will they stick with their laws?

More relevant.

If they stick with their laws which country will be the most blessed in 20 or 50 years time?

Only time will tell but socially and economically this country is not doing very well. I would say that this is in a good part due to adopting the laws and customs that have been tried and failed in other countries.

These African countries are trying a different path. The early indicators are that things are getting better there both socially and economically.

Can we say the same about the UK/Europe?

Phil

13 January 2013 at 18:52  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dodo

You're English. Surely you remember this famous quote from Hamlet written by the great William Shakespeare. Remember it when the resident "queen" protests and whines about real or immiginary persecutions past and present:

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

The olive branch was given and apologies made for trivialities and still his bellyaching continues.

As I've said here so often. Pandora's Box was opened in the late 1960's by the left in our Western nations and these radicals of all colors will never shut up no matter how much we give them. They will demand more and more and more.

Radical Gays, or better yet hysterical Gays, are knowing and unknowing tools of the far left who hate Western Christian Civilization and want to destroy it. Look around you and you will see proof of this every day.

It's that simple.

Patience has it's limits.

I wish they would SHUT UP!

13 January 2013 at 18:58  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Phil: "I do not lose a lot of sleep one way or the other if homosexuals are imprisoned in Africa for something that is legal to do here."

I hope that Christians in the Middle East are allowed to manifest their beliefs, as long as they are essentially harmless, without hindrance. I am profoundly sad that some of them have been killed, or imprisoned, or oppressed for their beliefs by illiberal States or groups. It ought not to be illegal for people to hold beliefs, and manifest them subject to the usual constraints, and I'm happy to say that about other sovereign countries. It's a denial of fundamental human rights.

13 January 2013 at 19:04  
Blogger John Magee said...

Phil

Gays are executed weekly in 2013 in Iran, Saudi Arbabia, the Sudan, even in Nigeria as well as other places where in the majority Muslim world where Islamic Law of Sharia is the law of the land or majority Muslim provinces. Western radical Gays don't breath a whisper about it. The same applies to the abuse of women in the Islamic world today. The silence in the West by radical feminists is a stain forever on their movement forever.

A small minority within a small minority, because of their support and funding by the far left, as well as their ability to organize and intimidate politicians and others have turned our society topsy-turvey within 40 short years.

Someday, I hope, the majority will finally get angry and say "enough!" ...

13 January 2013 at 19:12  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

One can easily understand other cultures deprecating homosexuality. Once you satisfy one gay demand, they put it in their pocket, and they’re right back at you wanting more...

13 January 2013 at 19:35  
Blogger John Magee said...

Inspector

Remember the old adage our grandparents, with their common sense and wisdom, used to say about people taking advantage of a another person's kindness:

"give an inch and they'll take a mile"

Today we see this on a national scale in the West.

13 January 2013 at 19:57  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

We'll see if the European Court takes that adage on board on Tuesday when those Christians and the notorious Paul Diamond demand their inch.

13 January 2013 at 19:59  
Blogger John Magee said...

Is this trespassing? Yes!

I'm sure liberals will find this just another "right" to desecrate Christian sites in the name of "Gay rights"

January 13, 2013

Four Women Strip, Protest Vatican Gay Marriage Stance

VATICAN CITY. Four women have gone topless in St. Peter's Square to protest the Vatican's opposition to Gay marriage.

Police quickly took the women away Sunday, and the pope appeared not to have been disturbed as he delivered his traditional prayer from his studio window overlooking the piazza.

On their bare backs, the women had painted slogans "In Gay We Trust," and "Shut Up." One of them, Inna Shevchenko, said: "Today we are here to protest against homophobia."

The small demonstration coincided with a march in Paris that is expected to draw hundreds of thousands of people to protest the French president's plan to legalize gay marriage and let gay couples adopt children.

French Catholic bishops and other religious leaders have strongly opposed the proposal, and the Vatican has backed them.

I wonder if Pope Benedict XVI will do what Putin did to the Pussy Riot girls when they pulled a similar stunt in Christ the Savior Russian Orthodox Cathedral in Moscow last summer.

No.The pope will do the Christian thing and forgive these sad misguided women.

I said the same thing would happen in our churches soon and it has.

13 January 2013 at 20:13  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


John, just as well homosexuals can’t reproduce, what !




13 January 2013 at 20:30  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Blimey. I made the mistake of googling the name of the group "Femen" who were involved. Obviously you should be okay Inspector but the other men here should really avoid doing that. Or at least send their wives from the room first. :O

13 January 2013 at 20:37  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Phil postulates a very interesting point, 'should we be concerned for Da Poo Poo Man if they throw away the key?'

Well, Da Poo Poo Man has legally secured in Europe Protected Rights and Positive Discimination into every organisation and made the White Heterosexual Christian Male the least of all, who will become redundant in government offices. The famous "too many white male faces" No History Months for them. (The Church had taught him he is least of all, so he hasn't quite woken up that his world has dumbed down and broke).

But with all the evidence of perversion and betrayal, it still does not behold one devil to be master of another.
Just remove all anti discrimination laws. You can discriminate, that's your right. Then you will choose character over designation.

Interacial marriages were not legislated for. Duh, people choose.

I'll still believe reparative therapy will free homosexuals from their personal bondage,.... or Scientology will lock them down so tightly, they'll be searching for Thetans for the next thousand years.

It's their choice, if they want to look at their parents or not, and forgive them for making them so angry that they screwed themselves in the process.

13 January 2013 at 20:50  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

The Inspector will not be googling that abominable name. Man in all his corruption, then. How exiting for you. The stock is weak. The way to improve it is obvious. Let us then take to the task with the knowledge that we do what must be done...

13 January 2013 at 20:53  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Actually, they're a bunch of Ukrainian women with blonde hair and an Amazonian build for the most part. Topless.

13 January 2013 at 21:00  
Blogger Kinderling said...

It was like the Iraqis getting the promise of Democracy "How will we cope, there will be riots, people cannot cope with such freedom"

People can choose. People can carry guns too, so no longer a select few animals can terrorise the plains. "What about those who don't want to change?" Oh,they'll find a Bloomsbury set, but they'd write with more enduring wit if they were straight. "What about the homophobia?" It'll be exactly the same people doing it out of fear of contamination already, but the next generation will be sympathetic if they are without a God's plan of the end of the world coming nigh, to stop labelling people and start freeing individuals from their vices

13 January 2013 at 21:26  
Blogger John Magee said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

13 January 2013 at 21:45  
Blogger John Magee said...

Inspector

During WW II when the German Army and Nazi SS Divisions occupied Rome after 1943 they didn't dare cross the international boundary line between the City of Rome and St. Peter's Square and the sovereign nation of Vatican City to go after Jews and others protected there.

It took a squad of Ukrainian dykes in 2013 to accomplish an invasion of Vatican City. I'm sure the Swiss Guard Guard frog marched these losers to a nice cell in the tiny Vatican City jail which probably hasn't had an occupant in decades where they will eat well and receive excellent care by a Church they hate.

These sad women are probably the descendents of people who died during Stalin's forced Ukrainian famine during the early 1930's which killed millions and/or are the of children of Ukrainian Orthodox Christians or Byzantine and Uniate Ukrainian Catholics in union with Rome who's families also suffered enormous persecution by the Soviet regime.

Remember when I said after the Moscow Cathedral desecration last year this would happen in our churches?

It's all too sad to comprehend.

What next?

Benedicamus Domino

13 January 2013 at 21:48  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

13 January 2013 at 22:05  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


John. There is just so much bull which can be endured. Elitism will make a comeback, and yet, if you look in the quiet middle class areas, it never went away. But for the sake of a quiet life, it hasn’t been broadcast for many years now...

13 January 2013 at 22:07  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

carl

Why did you feel the need to preface you comments at 13 January 2013 02:41 with "But I am a Calvinist, you see."? Everything you wrote is biblical and I don't think would be disputed by many Christians.

It is the mechanism by which God achieves His purposes where the theological divide lies amongst Christians, and probably most significantly between Calvinists and Roman Catholics/Eastern Orthodox Churches.

It seems to me, the part of free will, human endeavour and the significance of Christian action is essentially non-existent in your theology.


DanJ0

You seriously think men get a rise, so to speak, out of simply looking at a naked woman's mammillary glands? What an odd creature you are!

13 January 2013 at 22:09  
Blogger Kinderling said...

The son of an absent father who was justified in the world (and did not turn the other way to be justified into serving one of the many Gods), could only think a person going weak at the knees with a piece of flesh, rather than a representation of a piece of wood.

13 January 2013 at 22:19  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Except, for those with the gift of faith its what the "piece of wood" signifies.

13 January 2013 at 22:49  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Then the son of an 'absent father' (who was made female to serve God), ended up imprinted to worship the sky too.

If you saw your father upending himself five times a day, your rage would boil too to see him unworthy as a 'slave to his master' and look elsewhere.

And if the son does not inherit his manhood from his father, he inherits not his mantle of manhood, but a beast for fish or fowl, or becomes dedicated and loyalest servant of the strongest God.

A real man would have seen life in neither.

13 January 2013 at 23:12  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Things don't "represent" anything unless you give power for to them too.

13 January 2013 at 23:13  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "You seriously think men get a rise, so to speak, out of simply looking at a naked woman's mammillary glands? What an odd creature you are!"

I doubt an old fart like you gets much of a rise from anything these days to be honest. I expect your trouble-making is some sort of reminder that you can still have some sort of impact on the world. Poor, ineffectual little man.

13 January 2013 at 23:41  
Blogger Martin Sewell said...

I am at least pleased that you feel able to stay in contact with the Church through Anglicanism's broad welcome. By affording that welcome we retain the hope that what you see and experience may ignite a thought, a hope or an interest that enables you to deepen that commitment and bring you closer into a relationship with the Lord Jesus.

I do not much worry if you find that via the biblical text, the music or the Christlike service of a Christian follower.

You would not be the first to tumble unexpectedly into faith when they least expect it - least of all plan or study towards it.

May you always find a warm response from the Church in your occasional interactions.

13 January 2013 at 23:53  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

I see I touched a nerve, DanJ0 and you reverted to repressed, spiteful child mode.

You're so easy to read these days. Perhaps a quick refresher course at the 'School for Forum Plonkers' is called for.

And what is this *issue* you have with age? Does it scare you, what with you and your 'types' being so focused on the body beautiful?

14 January 2013 at 00:11  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Oh, meant to say that you can always pay to have your cheeks lift when needed i.e. if it isn't too late already.

14 January 2013 at 00:16  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

14 January 2013 at 00:28  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Dodo

Why did you feel the need to preface you comments at 13 January 2013 02:41 with "But I am a Calvinist, you see."?

Because everything I wrote is predicated upon the Decretive Will of God. From God's perspective, there is no such thing as contingency. That's what people recognize in what I say, and that's why no less than two people (OIG & Phil) immediately reacted against it. They wish to place human choice outside the Decretive will of God. Why? Because they demand contingency as a necessary condition of significance. They demand libertarian freedom for themselves. Only God has libertarian freedom. Men do not. And people hate that idea. The source of my confidence is exactly that God allows for no contingency in the outworking of His will.

There are no random molecules in the Universe. That is what it means to say God is sovereign.

carl

14 January 2013 at 00:31  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Carl

Now square that with free will?

Like you, I am entirely confident all is in in God's Hand and His will is supreme. It can be no other way.

However, I also understand that God permits people to accept or accept or reject cooperating with Him and His Grace. Naturally, He knows what choices we make but He does not predetermine our responses. Because eternity is outside of time, for God His plan is already fully worked out and completed. For us, in time, it is still unfolding.

14 January 2013 at 00:47  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Dodo and Danjo,

There are six billion different people sexually-identified in one way or another, each one thinking it is their GOD GIVEN GIFT.

His Grace has entreated us to learn from each other, in civil understanding and enquiry. I still await my proof for Homoroticism as a wholesome practice as there are no BODY PARTS evolved for the cause; and for God, as there are no MENTAL TELEPATHY parts evolved for the cause.

One makes Jesus a Love-God when they have no love, the other a Truth-God when they have no truth. I see that, that they need the pride of justification to fill a hole in their hearts that they can draw some comfort from a man who made it as a successful human being.

But to bitch about to each other has no respect to anyone else looking for a glimps of what it is to become a whole person.

Ladies, please keep it down.

14 January 2013 at 01:16  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Kinderling

Lol ... and I thought you had no sense of humour!

14 January 2013 at 01:49  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Dodo

Now square that with free will?

Since you define 'free will' in terms of libertarian freedom, then I will state again what I have previously said. Your conception of free will does not exist in man. I have told you at least twice before. Free will does not require contingency. Man's freedom is constrained. He cannot violate the Decretive Will of God.

Consider this, Dodo - good Arminian that you are. Assume God (being omniscient) knows that tomorrow you will order a salad with Ranch dressing. Are you therefore free to order Thousand Island dressing instead? If you say 'Yes' - even according to your conception of free will - you have falsified God's omniscience. There is a whole sideshow of theology developed around this question. It's called 'Open Theism' ... otherwise known as consistent Arminianism. It postulates that God deliberately enters into time and sacrifices His omniscience in order to protect the Libertarian freedom of the creature. A man, you see, cannot be truly free unless God doesn't know beforehand what that man will choose. This makes God into the 'Grand Chess Player' who does not decree but instead constantly learns from his creation and adapts accordingly. He becomes a sovereign where God is the analog of man instead of the other way around.

But That isn't how the Scripture describes the relationship between God and his creation. He wasn't sitting in heaven hoping the Pilate would do what was necessary. He ordained the outcome before He laid the foundations of the world. Pilate did exactly what God by His Power had beforehand determined must be done. That is what it says. And in many other places as well.

carl

14 January 2013 at 02:18  
Blogger John Magee said...

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14 January 2013 at 03:43  
Blogger John Magee said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

14 January 2013 at 04:00  
Blogger John Magee said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

14 January 2013 at 06:33  
Blogger John Magee said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

14 January 2013 at 06:42  
Blogger John Magee said...

Inspector

Here is a quote which fits our present era to perfection. It was made in 1943 by an American named H. W. Prentis president of the USA National Association of Manufacturers:

The historical cycle seems to be:

From bondage to spiritual faith;

From spiritual faith to great
courage;

From courage to liberty;

From liberty to abundance;

From abundance to complacency;

From complacency to apathy;

From apathy to dependence;

From dependence back into bondage.

Our Western societies are one step from the final stage in Mr. Prentis's observation about the life cycle of civilizations and nations. Meaning of course a possible future dictatorship for Europe (the EU) and an Obama dictatorship in the USA. Already the left are proposing the USA Constitution be changed to let him run for a 3rd term.

This terminal apathy to dependency stage was confirmed in the USA after the November 2012 Presidential election...

In my opinion massive immigration into the West by Muslims at this final stage will be part of the final step into bondage (some form of dictatorships mentioned above). We see this is the strange alliance between the left and radical Islam today.

14 January 2013 at 07:03  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Carl said ...

"Since you define 'free will' in terms of libertarian freedom, then I will state again what I have previously said. Your conception of free will does not exist in man. I have told you at least twice before. Free will does not require contingency. Man's freedom is constrained. He cannot violate the Decretive Will of God."

I'm not sure I'm referring to "libertarian freedom" as I'm not entirely clear what you mean by the use of this term.

By exercising free will we may in fact be complying with God's will. If by "contingency you mean I am constraining God's power because man's future choices cannot be seen by Him and He has to constantly intervene in history, then you are mistaken. As I've said, for God time does not exist.

"Consider this, Dodo - good Arminian that you are. Assume God (being omniscient) knows that tomorrow you will order a salad with Ranch dressing. Are you therefore free to order Thousand Island dressing instead?. Man's freedom is constrained. He cannot violate the Decretive Will of God."

But did God predetermine my choice of Ranch dressing in the first place - or just knew I would choose it? Isn't that the key? Was this my free choice or God's decision? And what was His Will and how will my choice fit His plan? By exercising free will man may in fact be complying with God's Will?

"O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? Says the Lord. Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel."
(Jeremiah 18:6)

Take this verse out of context and isolate it, and you will get a Calvinist interpretation. However, the next four verses are enlightening:

"If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will repent of the evil that I intended to do to it. And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will repent of the good which I had intended to do to it."
(Jer 18:7-10)

It's somewhat complex, wouldn't you say?

For Catholics, when God establishes his eternal plan of ‘predestination,’ he includes in it each person’s free response to his Grace. Thus, anyone who is finally saved will have been predestined by God because it was God’s predestined plan and God’s grace that went before him and enabled him to be saved.

However, this does not mean that God has predestined anyone for hell. Indeed, the Bible cannot be any plainer than to say God is not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

God wills all to be saved. To be damned, a person must wilfully reject God’s "predestined plan" for his salvation.

14 January 2013 at 13:14  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Carl

" (OIG & Phil) immediately reacted against it. They wish to place human choice outside the Decretive will of God. Why? Because they demand contingency as a necessary condition of significance. They demand libertarian freedom for themselves."

No we demand libertarian freedom for God because otherwise our worship is meaningless.

Robots cannot worship their creator.

Only if they are free does the worship have any meaning or any worth.

Phil

14 January 2013 at 18:13  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Carl

As I said before.

Watch "Stepford Wives" and you will see that the point.

How can we genuinely love God if he made it happen and we had no choice in it?

Would you still love your wife if "she" was not loving you at all, only being told to so by her programming (which would be altered at a moment's notice) and she obeys.

(If you are not sure reverse the genders and ask your wife the same question!)

If you follow this argument to the logical conclusion you become Danjo's best advocate.

Phil

14 January 2013 at 18:22  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

God man Phil. This pre-destination business is utter tosh. Look around you Carl, are school shootings pre-destined by our loving God ? Can you really not see free will when it takes a shot at you ? What about forgiveness. Hardly any point is there, forgiving the doomed.


14 January 2013 at 19:17  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Calvinists believe Christ's atonement and God's forgiveness was reserved for the predestined Elect only. If this wasn't the case their theology would fall down because God's Will would be deficient in the face of man's rejection of Grace.

They also cannot account for the Fall of Man.

14 January 2013 at 23:37  

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