Friday, February 01, 2013

Church of England still the Tory Party at prayer; Roman Catholics 'preferred Gordon Brown'


Theos have an interesting and insightful booklet out today: Is there a 'Religious Right' Emerging in Britain? (PDF download). Of particular interest is the enduring apparent correlation between denomination and party affiliation:
According to political scientist Ben Clements who has analysed the BES (British Election Survey) results, the data showed that Anglicans were more likely to vote for the Conservative Party than any other religious group (45% said they did), whereas Roman Catholics were, along with the nonreligious, least likely (29%). Catholics were more likely to vote Labour (40%), and the non-religious group was reasonably evenly split between the three parties, with a slight preponderance of support for the Liberal Democrats. The ‘other Christian denomination’ group (i.e. non-conformists, free and independent churches) were also evenly split between the three main parties, with a slight preference towards Conservative (33%).

The UKIP earned between 2.7% (other Christian denomination) and 4.9% (Anglican) of votes, whilst the BNP got between 0.2% (other Christian denomination) and 1.2% (no religion) of votes. The BES asked respondents about more than their voting record. The 2009/10 wave asked opinions of the main party leaders. Reflecting the direction of the political wind, David Cameron was most popular among four of the five groups, the exception being Roman Catholics, who preferred Gordon Brown.

The BES also asked respondents for their general opinion of parties, scoring each on a scale of 0 to 10. On this measure, Anglicans preferred the Conservatives (5.3) and Liberal Democrats (5.2) over Labour (4), whereas Roman Catholics preferred Liberal Democrats (5.1) and Labour (4.9) over Conservatives (4). The ‘other Christian denomination’ group preferred Liberal Democrats (5.4) over Labour (4.8) and Conservatives (4.4), which was also the order in which the non-religious group ranked the parties.

...Only one of the five BES categories – Roman Catholics – corresponds, in any way, to the groups that comprise the US Religious Right. It is noteworthy, therefore, that this category is also the most consistently left-of-centre of all the five surveyed in Britain. It is perhaps not surprising, therefore, that the accusations of a British Religious Right quoted in the introduction focus on Protestant (evangelical) groups rather than Catholic ones, a fact that is reflected in the choice of interviewees in chapter 3.

Although the BES ‘Anglican’ category was the most consistently Conservative of the five analysed, the alignment between Anglicanism and Conservatism was not comparable to that between evangelicals and Republicans in the US. More Anglicans voted for the two other mainstream parties than they did the Conservatives, and Anglicans were generally as positive about the Liberal Democrats as they were the Tories.
All such research gives a useful snapshot of the socio-religio-political state of affairs of Britain. It would be interesting to know if Roman Catholics find atheist Ed Miliband as attractive as Scottish Presbyterian Gordon Brown. It would be equally interesting to discover how the imminent appointment of Justin Welby as Archbishop of Canterbury might change the Anglican-Conservative dynamic. Conservatives do not equate to Republicans any more than Pat Robertson finds counterpart in Nicky Gumbel. But this is a welcome report, not least because it hands to David Cameron and Lynton Crosby a wealth of strategic information which may be used to 'target' Christian voters (however they might be defined) on the diverse and often conflicting issues which concern them. CCHQ won't listen, of course: the obsession remains with BME and LGBTQ groups.  Focusing on 'Christian concerns' will only prolong the contamination of the Conservative brand. 

His Grace has just one quibble - the utterly disproportionate profile given to Stephen Green (17 mentions) and 'Christian Voice' (19 mentions). When the Evangelical Alliance, which represents two million Christians, manages only 20 references, it is bizarre that a one-man outfit with a few hundred followers should feature so prominently, and that the authors' justification is 'the level of media exposure he has been given'.

Such media exposure feeds his prominence in reports such as this, and reports such as this then justify an even greater media exposure. Not until Christians have moved beyond cultic behaviour and denominational dogmatism will there be anything like a coherent 'Christian Right' in the UK. And, even then, the Anglicans will mostly be Tory, and the Roman Catholics will tend to prefer Gordon Brown.

103 Comments:

Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace

This is indeed an accurate description of CCHQ’s strategic thinking:

‘CCHQ won't listen, of course: the obsession remains with BME’.

Asians and blacks in their late forties and early fifties won’t vote for the Conservative Party as they recall their negative experiences of life in the slums of Britain (the rhetoric of EP, the criminal assaults and damage caused by the NF, police indifference leading to the 1979 Southall and 1981 Brixton disorders finally culminating in Lawrence (1999)).

Their experiences, when it comes to general elections, trump their religious and socially conservative values.

BMEs tend to have higher rates of unemployment (compared to whites) and therefore they tend to reside in the poorer urban areas and their children are channelled into schools where left-wing teachers, teach left-wing values through a left-wing curriculum and if some of them are successful they are likely to attend the new universities where they will be indoctrinated by left-wing lecturers.

The minority within the BME who are concerned about SSM only know (because of the great publicity) that it is a Conservative idea – and to vote against the Conservatives will make them feel morally superior to Conservatives.

1 February 2013 11:00  
Blogger John Thomas said...

Of couse, you might expect Roman Catholics to oppose abortion (and other C. D. projects), which is often seen to be a central plank in Left-wing party ideologies. Also, you might expect the very Biblical-literalist churches to be Right Wing in as far as they would be likely to reject homosexuality, a central plank of Leftism (but also, in these confusing latter days, the "Modern" Conservative party).
If all RC voters simply stayed at home on election day (thus rejecting abortionist parties (ie. all parties)) then Labour (and maybe other parties too) would be consigned to the dustbin of history.

1 February 2013 11:04  
Blogger Katie said...

This piece is a time waster. Why don't you write about the appalling interview given by the wet Wellies at Trent Vineyard (embedded at Titusonenine). Am i missing something or are we stuck with a joke? One of 3 things will surely happen: Wet Welly will turn out to be Primate Schori cross dressed; he might omega the alphas; but perhaps we will all have to jump ship or be larfed at by the Global South. PS it's a bad sign when an incoming ABC goes to the Jesuits for spiritual guidance. Worse than Rowan and Enzo Bianchi at Bose.

1 February 2013 11:10  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

Oh do give it a rest 'bish.

There will be many reasons why Roman Catholics vote Labour.

Exclusion from jobs affected my parents generation and many before them, as did the ensuing lower social status.

That the CofE was the Tory party at prayer says it all. Why would a Catholic vote for that lot?

Why vote to be a Dhimmi.

You are blaming us for a situation you have created.

Only now is there a slight crack appearing over the Act of Settlement - and then too little.

When Catholics can see a government tearing up the estate of marriage whilst still maintaining legislative discrimination against us I am surprised Catholics vote at all.

Apparently we make up 9% of the population. I guess 1/3 of us vote(d) Tory. That's a loss of approx 3% points compared to a gain of around 6% if Cameron had treated us right.

We are a socially conservative group. Unfortunately the Tory Party no longer is.

By chasing around after gays and recent immigrants they stand to lose not just us but a swathe of Middle England.

1 February 2013 11:28  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

"Oh do give it a rest 'bish."

And out they come again - the self-appointed Cyber Swiss Guard; the tedious Opus Dei of the Blogosphere.

Give what a rest, precisely?

This is a report - a report on a report, which includes certain facts, researched with a credible methodology to give credence to their validity. Yet, once again, we see the same professing Roman Catholics leap to criticise and harass. It is incessant attrition; an attempt to bully into silence. Their task is seemingly to render any mention of the Pope of Rome or any critique of the Roman Catholic Church subject to their particular interpretation of theology, history and ecclesiology. The drip-drip-drip of barbed snipes is a strategy of intimidation: it is a manifest and well-known method of bullying.

This in an Anglican blog: His Grace is Anglican. He will (often) express Anglican perspectives on theological and political issues. If, Harry-ca-Nab, you do not like what is posted, please, just go to the Telegraph Blogs, where your perspectives are catered for daily in abundance.

1 February 2013 12:00  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Most British - or at least English - people seem to vote for their grandparents party, as though they were still living in an AJ Cronin novel. Catholics in the past would naturally have voted for Labour since most of them would have been immigrants. Quite why a £100,000 per year company executive would continue doing that today is a mystery. Oh, no, wait, it isn't: since there's no actual difference between Labour and the Tories, you might as well go with family inertia.

1 February 2013 12:01  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Mr Cranmer said ...

"And out they come again - the self-appointed Cyber Swiss Guard; the tedious Opus Dei of the Blogosphere."

Sorry but is Harry-ca-Nab a verified member of said group? So far as I'm concerned the opinions he expressed were his own.

You ask:
"It would be interesting to know if Roman Catholics find atheist Ed Miliband as attractive as Scottish Presbyterian Gordon Brown."

Personally speaking, both are equally unattractive regardless of their faith or lack of it. If the issue came down to choosing a Party opposed to abortion and homosexual marriage, then I would vote according to my faith.

You will know that political party tends to be 'tribal' and inter-generational in Britain and there are many socio-economic-political reasons for this. The concentration of Irish immigrants in certain parts of the country - 'up North' - being one and the traditional identification of the Labour Party classes and the left in general with the working class and Catholic emmancipation.

If I may make one observation, the header to the article:

"Church of England still the Tory Party at prayer; Roman Catholics 'preferred Gordon Brown'"

was a tad annoying. Does the report cited actually indicate that Catholics preferred Brown to Cameron - or the reasons for this? I'd also suggest the Conservative Party may need to improve its image as the 'Tory Party at Prayer', possibly an explanation for Cameron's support of homosexual marriage. Rwecently I cancelled my membership of the Conservative Party because of this.

Interesting article but not surprising.

1 February 2013 12:27  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

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1 February 2013 12:42  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Your Grace,

I am not sure if I'd particularly want a politics of 'Christian right' verses 'secular left', besides which in our country, any movement which created a popular mainstream Christian party, with MP's etc, would automatically create a space for an Islamic party to be formed and get elected.

Tribal politics, look at Northern Ireland, where the sole voting inclinations are whether or not you are a Protestant and Catholic.

Better a plural system in which people of faith can be a part of the main parties and make their mark that way.

1 February 2013 13:03  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

"Tribal politics, look at Northern Ireland, where the sole voting inclinations are whether or not you are a Protestant and Catholic."

So long as "Protestant" and "Catholic" are understood as principally ethnic terms (where religious affiliation is a key marker of ethnicity) rather than their usual religious identities used elsewhere, then yes, you are quite correct, and certainly correct that you don't want to import NI politics to England.

You could stick a Union Jack on a donkey and get it elected on the Shankill, and a balaclava on a donkey and get it elected on the Falls, as we sometimes say. Course, some might say that's not hypothetical: we've been electing donkeys for years.

1 February 2013 13:15  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

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1 February 2013 13:37  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1 February 2013 13:38  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Mr Belfast,

Exactly my point, although I'd agree that the political parties here have roots in Christian tradition- the Tory party at prayer and the other adage the the labour party'owes more to Methodism than Marxism...' today a balkanisation of politics, on religious grounds, doesn't seem very healthy.

I am not sure if the political right in this country could remould itself into the American version. It would require a reasonably large cohesive electoral bloc, which doesn't seem to exist in this country, at least not at present.

1 February 2013 13:44  
Blogger Owl said...

Interesting discussion.

My father came to England from southern Ireland during the war. He was very conservative in his outlook but, to the best of my knowledge, he never voted for the Conservatives in his life.

For him, they represented the "English" that repressed Ireland and continued to support unionist repression in NI.

His outlook was, in my opinion, fairly well on a par with most Irish immigrants.

It had nothing to do with religion and nothing to do with English people as such.

Since the (shaky) peace in NI became a reality, Dave could have won over a majority of these people and their offspring but he chose to "renege" on his caste iron promise which lost him this oppotunity. We knew, once again, that we could not trust the Conservatives.

No, the RC's do not want Gordon Brown or the Lib Dims.

We would have liked a bit more honesty and moral courage and I can imagine that many of this group of people will be moving now to UKIP.

This report is a bit shallow in the why's and wherefore's.


1 February 2013 13:51  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace

May I add a thought to Owl's contribution?

People tell me that most supporters of UKIP are former Conservatives I believe that is true.

However, I have noticed something new Labour voters are drifting towards UKIP.

I think if there were to be a televised debate between Miliband and Farage that would benefit the Conservatives and UKIP.

1 February 2013 14:13  
Blogger Jon said...

AIB - a very sad LOL to your comment.

Mind you, they say you can stick a red rosette on a pig in Lancashire....

1 February 2013 17:12  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...



Opinion polls ??? Hah ! {SNORTS LOUDLY}

Something horrible happened in 1997. The election of Blair with a landslide majority. How did that happen ? Well, it was the ladies no less. And it’s quite easy to see the awfulness of what occurred, you know. They did what ladies tend to do, they abandoned long held principles and allegiances, threw caution to the wind and turned out in droves to give themselves to a very handsome and intelligent man. Women eh !

One does smile at the thought of hundreds of man hours laboured by pollsters determining voting patterns in the run up to that election, all wrecked by sex of all things. The best part of the weaker 51% of the population voted in a man they would quite happily surrender themselves to in the bedroom…

And it’s going to happen again ! This time with Milli-thing, apparently. One joshes you not - it’s on the cards, so they say… {AHEM}

Oh, come on, a nice Jewish boy, with a charming pronunciation problem which does not irritate the listener one iota, surely ? They’ll want to mother him, probably…





1 February 2013 17:54  
Blogger non mouse said...

I luvvit, Your Grace; especially Not until Christians have moved beyond cultic behaviour and denominational dogmatism will there be anything like a coherent 'Christian Right' in the UK. And, even then, the Anglicans will mostly be Tory, and the Roman Catholics will tend to prefer Gordon Brown.

Lordy! However could I reach any consensus with an already authoritarian RC who liked Brown? And I daren't imagine what they must be like if they support Millipede.

But then again -- I can't think of any politicians to support; not even if they adopt blue rosettes.
None of them seem to respect my Christian Rights (or rites) - they're all too busy writing as marxwrights.

1 February 2013 17:58  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace

There may be one section of blacks that the Conservative Party could appeal to and doesn't carry upon its collective back the baggage of racism.

I think it was The Spectator's James Delingpole when eating in an African cafe in Leicester and conversing wrote an interesting remark: they don't have the resentment of British blacks.

Why not?

They are recent immigrants who find themselves in a society where racism is not as bad compared to the 70s and 80s.

However, the oligarchy has decided to implement an affront to God - and given that the new blacks are evangelical Christians - they won't vote Tory.

1 February 2013 17:59  
Blogger non mouse said...

Oh dear, Inspector @ 17:54. I agree with you utterly about the opinion polls. I even half agree with you about women.

Still though -- I think it's all a six of one and half-a-dozen of the other problem. It works this way: Most men are absolute fools when it comes to assessing women; Most women are absolute fools when it comes to assessing men.

And I say at least half of the reason is that women have fathers, and men have mothers.

Still. As time goes on, some of us develop better skills of character judgement -- we even do it without polarising.

And further still, animus or anima, it doesn't have to be hostility all round. For example, I'd say soul mates are thus simply because they are: no human judgement informs the unity. Perhaps that means their 'characters' are already united, empirical life being merely God's purification programme. As that life is, of course for all members of any polarity. Unfortunately, the marxists have tried to play God: by uniting Left and Right.

I hope UKIP won't do the same.

1 February 2013 18:27  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Goodness! What times we live in! Here in Barchester the clergy are all behind Archdeacon Grantly, who is leading the 'Hands off Marriage' campaign (though I do wish he wouldn't keep referring to it as the 'Unhand my wife' campaign - most disconcerting!), so one can imagine we are rather at sea when it comes to political allegiance. Whilst Barchester has remained fixed in its principles, the Tory Party has moved into the stratosphere of WTF (as Mr. Slope refers to it, which I presume means 'Where theology falters'). We have very little to do with Father O'Hooligan OSBw who ministers to the navvies down at St. Fabian's, other than a shared belief in the sanctity of marriage and a mutual distrust of anything galvanised or cast-iron...perhaps there is common ground to explore?

1 February 2013 18:28  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear Non Mouse,
I assure you I am not a fool when it comes to assessing men...I have assessed My Lord and Mr Slope and have indeed found them wanting. At least they tell me they are wanting...but I'm not exactly sure what...

1 February 2013 18:32  
Blogger Steropes said...

A great friend now deceased who was a Roman Catholic priest and Irish himself explained that the majority of RC congregations were of Irish descent with the few middle class members being from old English families who stayed with the faith from civil war times. This is a very different mixture cf a C of E congregation in many churches. The comments above are apposite -- regarding the influence of teachers in the state (or correctly city or county council) schools.

1 February 2013 18:32  
Blogger non mouse said...

Dear Mrs. Proudie -- I said only "most" women, of course.

You are undoubtedly one of the honorable exceptions; and you have my understanding of this issue with your Lord and Mr. Slope!

1 February 2013 18:48  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear non mouse,

Goodness! How gracious of you...I must invite you along to one of my soirees at The Palace very soon...

1 February 2013 19:05  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Mrs Proudie. One commiserates with you dear lady. Here in Gloucester, we have not seen such despondency in the diocese since Bishop Peter Ball was caught sodomising the flock. {AHEM}

1 February 2013 19:10  
Blogger Kinderling said...

One prays and hopes for God's Kingdom Come, while the other does the exact opposite and hopes and then prays for it.

Be careful what they wish for.

These selfish gulible Pagan's Doo will vote, wave and welcome an Islamic Caliphate or Socialist State before they are torn apart.

1 February 2013 19:16  
Blogger Nino said...

D. Singh

"I think it was The Spectator's James Delingpole when eating in an African cafe in Leicester and conversing wrote an interesting remark: they don't have the resentment of British blacks.

Why not?"

Because they didn't go through slavery.

1 February 2013 19:17  
Blogger non mouse said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1 February 2013 19:17  
Blogger non mouse said...

Dear Mrs. Proudie,

Thank you for your kind thoughts. If I ever get a chance to leave my Island Retreat, a visit to your Palace would be a delight. One never knows, it may even encourage the gentlemen to turn to 'de Light.'

1 February 2013 19:19  
Blogger Nino said...

Harry-ca-Nab

"We are a socially conservative group. Unfortunately the Tory Party no longer is.

By chasing around after gays and recent immigrants they stand to lose not just us but a swathe of Middle England."

All too true.

Also, a lot of those recent immigrants are Catholics from Poland and Africa.

Poles tend to be right wing due to the reaction against Communism. Brilliant idea of David Cameron to attack Catholics in this country, eh?

1 February 2013 19:22  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear Inspector General, Goodness! Isn't that taking the role of shepherd just a little too far? Is he Welsh?

1 February 2013 19:35  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Not sure old thing. Escaped p.d.q. when the townsfolk turned up with pitchforks and torches.

1 February 2013 19:44  
Blogger bluedog said...

His Grace observes, 'But this is a welcome report, not least because it hands to David Cameron and Lynton Crosby a wealth of strategic information which may be used to 'target' Christian voters'.

And this is where it gets interesting.

Crosby's standard strategy when advising notionally right wing parties is to develop policies which appeal broadly to social conservatives irrespective of class or religious affiliation. Indeed, one could argue that the most fruitful partnership could well be Crosby and UKIP, but that is not to be. Crosby is stuck with the Conservative Party and it's Marxist brainwashed leadership.

Consequently, Crosby is tasked with training Dave to swerve to the Right. In particular Crosby needs to find a way for Dave to retreat from his politically catastrophic enthusiasm for SSM. Not easy because SSM is a core position of the Lib-Dims, and the personal chemistry between Dave and the idiot Clegg still seems good.

Now this communicant is a keen observer of 'straws in the wind', being apparently insignificant indicators that point to a break in long established policies and traditions. Straws in the wind tend to emerge after an 'off the record background briefing by a highly placed official'. A frequent straw in the wind is the attribution of blame for an unsuccessful policy position to an individual other than the party leader.

Bingo.

Only the other day there were a number of one line reports to the effect, ' It's hard to say where Dave got this enthusiasm for SSM', and 'You may have to look at SamCam's politics, she's actually very Left-wing, and 'SamCam may even have voted Labour at some point'.

This sort of stuff doesn't happen by accident, it's a clear piece of re-positioning before a yet another policy back-flip.

Talk about the Religious Right is not entirely fanciful.

1 February 2013 20:34  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Goodness! Sam Cam from a left wing family? Well of course, I mean Sutton-en-le-Forest manor house is situated in a prolaterian corner of rural North Yorkshire (it won one of the best kept villages awards in recent years, clearly part of the tractor-stats great leap forward) and the Sheffields are well-known acolytes of Che Guevara and Pol Pot...

1 February 2013 22:18  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Dash it all, there is NO need to create a new 'Christian right' in the UK. What we want is OUR CONSERVATIVE AND UNIONIST PARTY back to its former self, not pandering to the lefties of the Guardian (of which there is no appeasement of anyway).

1 February 2013 22:19  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Oh dear, Signora Neroni has arrived and the Orvieto Classico is taking effect...must go before Mr Slope starts exposing his relicts...not a pretty sight.

1 February 2013 22:26  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Lavendon old fellow. Cameron has promised us an EU vote. We have to put all aside and put our trust in him. Of course, with his form, if he lets us down again, he will go down in history as the biggest liar ever to have been PM. Shallow and weak as he is, one cannot see him committing himself to history as a that.

1 February 2013 22:58  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1 February 2013 22:59  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Inspector,

Old chap, one cannot trust Cameron with a barge pole.

1 February 2013 23:01  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

The ten point plan for Cameron to get back to the moderate Conservative, centre right fold :

1. Withdraw from the EU on the basis of a free trade agreement and a general free trade alliance with our kith and kin in American and the Commonwealth. As an addition we shall repeal the human rights act.

2. A united Ireland with the UK; ask Israel to join the UK.Home Rule all round for the various countries of the UK- Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England.

3. To solve the future energy crisis a building of nuclear thorium reactors and an increase in research of nuclear fusion. And ending to the god foresaken 'climate change' guff and the plans to turn Great Britain into a giant wind turbine and a Maoist peasant commune by the socialist-greens.

4. A rebuilding of the Royal Navy and the end to the constant cuts to the RAF and Army.

5. An end to the fractional reserve banking of the current era and a return to Biblical lending.

6. Allow the patriotic Briton to Fox hunt once again.

7. A government commitment to focus on job creation.

8. A reform of the welfare payments and culture of the current times.

9. Free university education, on which the system is based upon MERIT alone, not on whether you are poor or not.

10. Parliamentary reform- reduce the number of MP's to about 400 and reduce their salary to the minimum wage (thus making them get a proper job in addition to being a politician) . An elected house of Lords of 120 temporal members on a list PR basis and 30 members drawn from the religions, universities and business. The Temporal members shall be members of the hereditary Peerage and be elected by all hereditary peers.

Also allow the 'law lords' to return.

End of the disgusting patronage of the politicians and a return to the times in which problems and the Lords would be resolved over a bottle of fine wine, whiskey or brandy and a smoke of pipe, cigar or cigarette.

1 February 2013 23:01  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mrs Proudie @ 22.18, there is no suggestion that the Sheffields are a left-wing family per se, indeed they take themselves very seriously and are undoubtedly creatures of the High Tory Right. However Samcam went to Bristol and worked at Symthsons of Bond Street. Bumped in to a few amusing queers there and started to see things differently?

1 February 2013 23:01  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
Lord Lavendon is right at above. But how to do it? How does one get to the Central Office and blow them all away so that decent sorts can be selected as candidates? The students nearly managed it but we need a little more finesse.
BTW. I am waiting in anticipation as whether the Lord will intervene miraculously in the SSM vote.

1 February 2013 23:05  
Blogger bluedog said...

Not bad, Milord @ 23.01, but incorporating the State of Israel in the UK will be vetoed by the State of New York, to name but one opponent of the proposal.

As to item 6 on the agenda, the correct approach in this communicant's view is to talk a bout the reintroduction of hunting with dogs. As we know, Jack's as good as his master but can't afford a stable of hunters and a bouncy little girl groom or two, which leads to Envy. In order to side-step Envy it is important to widen the appeal to include coursing, rabbiting etc. What's the point of having a lurcher, as so many country-folk do, if you can't use it for its God-given purpose?

Indeed, it is ecologically sound to eradicate vermin with dogs - absolute control, no chemical residue and no risk of a stray shot peppering a rambler.

These arguments need to be made.

1 February 2013 23:14  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Blue dog,

Correct- the so-called animal rights lobby forgets about the animal rights of our hunting hounds. And that is what I meant anyway.

1 February 2013 23:19  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Also, New York could rejoin the UK as well... thus combining the two great global centres of finance into one place.

1 February 2013 23:19  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

LL

Speaking for Flyover Country, you can have New York City. Just be careful what you ask for. Buyer's Remorse is a real thing.

carl

1 February 2013 23:27  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Sorry, did someone suggest Eire becomes part of a United Kingdom!

A Nation Once Again
When boyhood's fire was in my blood
I read of ancient freemen,
For Greece and Rome who bravely stood,
Three hundred men and three men;
And then I prayed I yet might see
Our fetters rent in twain,
And Ireland, long a province, be.
A Nation once again!

A Nation once again,
A Nation once again,
And lreland, long a province, be
A Nation once again!

And from that time, through wildest woe,
That hope has shone a far light,
Nor could love's brightest summer glow
Outshine that solemn starlight;
It seemed to watch above my head
In forum, field and fane,
Its angel voice sang round my bed,
A Nation once again!

It whisper'd too, that freedom's ark
And service high and holy,
Would be profaned by feelings dark
And passions vain or lowly;
For, Freedom comes from God's right hand,
And needs a Godly train;
And righteous men must make our land
A Nation once again!

So, as I grew from boy to man,
I bent me to that bidding
My spirit of each selfish plan
And cruel passion ridding;
For, thus I hoped some day to aid,
Oh, can such hope be vain ?
When my dear country shall be made
A Nation once again!

1 February 2013 23:36  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

I think the Conservatives had incorrectly interpreted advice given them to change. I'm sure the advice didn't mean become a socialist/communist by adopting Labour policies, but rather meant re-marketing of the conservative package using a more modern language that promotes their proper and traditional values with an original appealing wrapper.

Do as the Labour have done when they cast off the old Labour and became New Labour, re-brand but still maintain the Tory culture underneath it.

Inspector I was one of those ladies you mentioned who was duped with the new speak rhetoric in 97. things then weren't bad under the Tories but Teflon Tony's charismatic clap trap made out that life could only get better under New Labour. He tapped into

2 February 2013 01:22  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Lavendon: "Correct- the so-called animal rights lobby forgets about the animal rights of our hunting hounds."

What the fox hunters don't tell people is that the dogs are just working animals and are shot in the head at about 7 years old or when they lose the fitness or drive to hunt in a pack, whichever is the sooner.

2 February 2013 02:20  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

Oh 'bish, now you don't want anyone here who disagrees with you?

I like much on this blog but the constant sniping at Catholics and the Pope is rather tedious and predictable.

You should rise above it otherwise you will increasingly sound like Ian Paisley.

I must have hit a raw nerve, but at least I may have illustrated that to ignore and even discriminate against a significant group who are naturally conservative is not good politics on Camerons part. .

You must agree that discrimination has its consequences. Catholics are by any measure conservative but when we are openly treated as second class citizens why would we support those who discriminate against us.

I do however appreciate my elevation to the Swiss Guard and Opus Dei.

Exciting.

Thanks for that.

2 February 2013 03:20  
Blogger len said...

Harry -cohab said 'I like much on this blog but the constant sniping at Catholics and the Pope is rather tedious and predictable.'

Do you actually read the comments on this blog?.The Catholic communicants are the worst, vindictive, spiteful,sniping at anyone who opposes their(strange) views.Beating up on gays... even their own 'Sister Tiberius ' because she dared to speak the truth.

Get real. Jesus said we would know His followers because of their' love'for which Catholic posters show very little even to their fellow co religionists.

2 February 2013 08:28  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

The issue is not right/left but that all of our parties have become dechristianised as they reach for a secularised ethic and economic policy.

Its about rejecting Moses and Jesus for Rousseau, Freud and Marx. And it will end very badly, because the old wisdom worked and the new 'wisdom' doesn't.

2 February 2013 08:29  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

The issue is not right/left but that all of our parties have become dechristianised as they reach for a secularised ethic and economic policy.

Its about rejecting Moses and Jesus for Rousseau, Freud and Marx. And it will end very badly, because the old wisdom worked and the new 'wisdom' doesn't.

2 February 2013 08:32  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2 February 2013 08:53  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Harry: "You must agree that discrimination has its consequences."

Well, I can vouch for that.

2 February 2013 09:29  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Harry-na-Cab,

All posts like that will be summarily deleted - please see His Grace's 'Bottom Line'. You appear to be incapable of distinguishing criticism of an institution from personal slander. Your ad hominem is gratuitous. If you cannot reason rationally, please leave. If you persist with your sniping, you will be blocked, permanently, which you will then doubtless attribute to 'anti-Catholic bigotry'. Grow up.

2 February 2013 09:44  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

"..reason rationally.."

His Grace apologises for the tautology - let's call it emphasis.

2 February 2013 09:49  
Blogger bluedog said...

DanJo @ 02.20 says, '...dogs are just working animals and are shot in the head at about 7 years old or when they lose the fitness or drive to hunt in a pack, whichever is the sooner.'

Sounds like a job for the RSPCA then.

After their recent political execution of 43 sheep on the dock side at Ramsgate in protest at live animal exports, the killing of 43 superannuated foxhounds would be a worthy sequel.

A tip-off to the kindred spirits in the BBC would not go astray either.

2 February 2013 10:07  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...


Danjo,

Nonsense my dear boy!

Fox hunting with hounds is part of the rural way of life, but as usual we see minority rights being threatened by the illiberal acts of the townie majority. In fact, most farmers, game keepers, horse riders and hound masters love their animals and go to great lengths to protect and look after them.

2 February 2013 10:29  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Lavendon: "Nonsense my dear boy!"

You're denying that the hunting dog are routinely killed when they've outlived their usefulness? That generally being about 7 years of age? What happens to them if so? Is there a home for retired hunting hounds somewhere with log fires for them to curl up near and where rural folk visit to affectionately scratch their ears and pat them?

2 February 2013 11:14  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2 February 2013 11:19  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2 February 2013 11:22  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Danjo,

As said before us rural folk understand the cycle of life and the role of nature within it. And yes we do love all of God's creatures and we are grateful for the food we have.

2 February 2013 11:50  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Mr Cranmer said ...

"If you persist with your sniping, you will be blocked, permanently, which you will then doubtless attribute to 'anti-Catholic bigotry'."

In order to avoid summary excommunication, it would if we could be clear on a definition of "sniping" and to whom this grave offence now applies.

I offer as a definition: To make a sly or petty verbal attack.

And is this an example of such sniping

"The Catholic communicants are the worst, vindictive, spiteful,sniping at anyone who opposes their(strange) views.Beating up on gays... even their own 'Sister Tiberius ' because she dared to speak the truth."

2 February 2013 12:12  
Blogger Albert said...

I think this just shows the political illiteracy of Mr Cameron. He didn't win the last election (not even against Gordon Brown), so he needs to understand how non-Tories vote.

Catholics, together with Muslims, are traditionally instinctive Labour voters. But there is one area where they are inclined to depart from the left: they are (in these broad terms) socially conservative.

What I hear from those fellow Catholics who have always voted Tory is that, as a result of gay "marriage", they will not do so again while Dave is in charge. Figures published in the Telegraph today support this. 1/5 of those who voted Dave last time say the will not vote for Dave because of this and "another fifth of Toy voters say they are unsure as to whether they would support David Cameron again if it becomes law." In other words, only just over half of Dave's voters are not considering boycotting him on these grounds alone.

And all this is before anything has gone wrong with gay "marriage". Dave will be lucky if he avoids any further fall-out.

A couple of conclusions naturally follow:

1. Dave is a very poor politician who does not know his own party and voters, let alone the country. So even people who favour gay marriage are like to doubt his ability (and his sincerity according to the poll 62% of voters just think Dave is trying to appear "trendy and modern").

2. What would have happened if Dave had waited for Labour to introduce gay "marriage"? Instead of Catholic Tories refusing to vote for Dave, he would have a large number of Labour Catholics and Muslims refusing to vote Labour.

It's obvious to anyone who's had the remotest contact with ordinary people. It's also obvious to anyone who is thinking about stated Tory policy - reach out to ethnic minorities.

2 February 2013 12:14  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

"And is this an example of such sniping.."

Dodo,

Quite clearly not: it is no different from the sort of crass insults dispensed by your co-religionists against Protestants, who, apparently, reduce everything to superficial slogans.

We're taking here about personal attacks on individuals. You know exactly what these are, because you are yourself very keen on them. Yours have been (and will be) summarily deleted. If you wish to indulge in that sort of behaviour, start your own blog.

2 February 2013 12:39  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Lavendon: "As said before us rural folk understand the cycle of life and the role of nature within it. And yes we do love all of God's creatures and we are grateful for the food we have."

So, in order to be clear, which you seem very keen not to be, I was not talking nonsense at all and the dogs are usually shot when they have outlived their usefulness. Which is often about 7 years of age. That's correct. Yes?

2 February 2013 12:41  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Danjo ,

You are talking nonsense because it is up to the dog owners what they do with said dogs when they are 'redundant', thus an owner may well shoot them, although the frequency of this is quite less. What I call nonsense is your clear desire to attack the rural folk out of your own illiberal ideology and imply that we are all savages, shooting at things for the sake of it.

We - that is the rural community-work with the government and animal welfare charities to retrain and reuse the dogs or help them find new owners when they retire.

So yes, there are

"home(s) for retired hunting hounds somewhere with log fires for them to curl up near and where rural folk visit to affectionately scratch their ears and pat them"

2 February 2013 12:56  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

Hi Dodo,

It is me who is being censored.

I have been placed on the naughty step.

Harry

2 February 2013 13:05  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Lavendon, I've done no such thing. I merely stated what happens to the dogs and pointed out that the fox hunters don't tell people that. It's not nonsense at all, it's the bald truth.

I see the Quorn Hunt most weekends when I out and about during the season. I'm not some embedded urban dweller who rarely if ever sees a field of wheat.

Dogs which hunt in a pack like that are not really suitable for pets for a number of reasons. Indeed, it's arguably a bit cruel to try to make them so.

2 February 2013 13:06  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

"What I call nonsense is your clear desire to attack the rural folk out of your own illiberal ideology and imply that we are all savages, shooting at things for the sake of it."

That's just outrageous. Talk about lashing out when in a tight corner of your own making!

2 February 2013 13:08  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Danjo,

Good. Then do not act like an urbanite and support your rural community and way of life!

2 February 2013 13:08  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Lavendon: "Then do not act like an urbanite and support your rural community and way of life!"

WHAT?

2 February 2013 13:12  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

"Man simply tells the truth" shocker.

2 February 2013 13:13  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Danjo,

No-one is lashing out at you, so please do calm down old chap. I merely defend my community with a degree of polemical robustness, as every other blogger does on these threads. Like you, I believe that minority communities, in this case the rural community, need to be considered via the majority of the urban population.

2 February 2013 13:14  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

"No-one is lashing out at you, so please do calm down old chap."

WHAT?

2 February 2013 13:19  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Danjo,

Dear fellow, you said "That's just outrageous. Talk about lashing out when in a tight corner of your own making".

I am simply reassuring you that I am not lashing out at you dear fellow.

2 February 2013 13:45  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Mr Cranmer

So the comment by len was:
" ... no different from the sort of crass insults dispensed by your co-religionists against Protestants ..."? Well, at least we are agreed it was a crass insult.

I shall endeavour to avoid responding to such insults in future, including those from those of no faith. And, for the record, very view of my comments have been deleted. Only one or two in the last year and I thought the comments, directed at you, were reasonable.

One hopes too you are able to distinguish between posters. Co-religionists, i.e. Roman Catholics, is such a loose, broad generalisation. Are all Catholics unreasonable? There are many Catholics who visit this blog who post erudite and rational comments.

2 February 2013 14:01  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

I say, what’s with the ‘hair trigger / delete process’ combo Archbishop ?

One is fortunate to tick the box that sends follow up comments to his email address, so is able to view what has been deleted. You have treated Harry in an astonishing way, by suppressing his opinion. He does have one you know, and it’s not ad hominem. In fact, following the threads as this man does, the last time you acted in accordance with your, well now apparently previous position of what IS acceptable, is when you, quite rightly, gave Cressida the slipper for vulgarity.

Let’s hope this site is NOT undergoing it’s own reformation, what !

2 February 2013 14:10  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Harry

It is already getting rather crowded on here ... another co-religionist is about to arrive, me thinks.

2 February 2013 14:17  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

You rang Dodo?

Vulgarity? Danjo is the one that expounds filth and vulgarity here inspector. I seem to recall I was giving a definition of the term 'twunt' which is what Danjo so vulgarly called you on one of the few occasions when you did not deserve it. He seems to have carte blanche on this blog to use any obscenity that he likes. Maybe he is Cranmer's idiot cousin,whose only opportunity to interact socially is on a blog site because the rest of time he has to be locked away in the attic for the protection of the public.

2 February 2013 14:49  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I see the coven are gathering and my name crops up in their incantations yet again. Quelle surprise.

2 February 2013 14:53  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Cressida. Life is so unfair !

Dodo - how did you DO that ?

2 February 2013 14:56  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

That's the next stage of trashing forums: concerted attacks planned off-site.

2 February 2013 15:04  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

I have a magic orb brother Inspector and sister Cressida has one too. I can arrange delivery of one to you via 'Opus Dei Transporti if you wish. You will need to say the following words in impeccable Latin when it arrives to prove your credentials: "Acriter et Fideliter".

Anyone, and I do mean anyone, who posts maliciously about the intimate physical body parts of Jesus Christ is deserving of contempt DanJ0. Indeed, you are beneath contempt for that comment a few threads down. It astonishes me our host has not deleted it.

2 February 2013 15:12  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Read the comment in context DanJ0. Do stop this relentless game of feeding paranoia and stirring trouble. Anyone with sense would see I was referring to the Inspector joining Harry on the naughty step.

Prediction: len and Ernsty will now pick up this theme of a group attempting to thrash this forum.

2 February 2013 15:18  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...



Brilliant, that woman. The secret of all good comedy ... timing.

2 February 2013 15:20  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

Off the naughty step now and on my way to my Priest hole at Harvington to apply my cilice and indulge in a little light flagellation for my sins.

inspector, you are a brick. Get a magic orb and share my comments with Dodo, they really aren't ad hominem at all are they? In fact quite justified given len's little outburst.



2 February 2013 19:06  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

I say Harry, Harvington Hall, eh. Near Alcester as this man recalls, about 2 days journey by mule from where this man posts....

Don’t worry about little Len and the little thoughts coming from his little mind. The bird is onto him every time. Yet, when you look back at Cranmer’s archive, there he could be found posting his whatever, completely unopposed. Of course, there is the danger than exposure to this site might turn him Christian. But as Sir Patrick Moore would have put it, “we might never know”...

Cheery pip !

2 February 2013 19:41  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Harry

Tradition holds there is a lost orb, once in the care of Nicholas Owen, secreted away in Harvington Hall.

If you seek it, you will find it.

2 February 2013 21:25  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

Yes Inspector, Harvington http://bit.ly/WIQCg3.

Just outside my native Bromsgrove and still owned by the Catholic Archdiocese of Birmingham.
Bromsgrove was a recusant place - home to the famous Talbot family.

In fact Worcestershire and Warwickshire is full of such hidden gems including, of course, Shakespeare's old chapel adjacent to his last house where he, his parents and his recusant family maintained their allegiance to the true faith right under the noses of the authorities.

And then there is Edward Elgar who travelled to Bromsgrove to worship at my church St Peters, Rock Hill, where JRR Tolkiens dear mother is buried.

Here endeth the lesson........

3 February 2013 03:40  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

Dodo, I will seek it.

In fact as I shiver in my little hole under the stairs in fear of being "summarily deleted" by Mr Cranmer I am sure that the spirit of St Nicholas will help in my searchings.

3 February 2013 03:58  
Blogger len said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

3 February 2013 09:29  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

"Prediction: len and Ernsty will now pick up this theme of a group attempting to thrash this forum. "

It appears Ernst has been reading the wrong thread again and missed out of watching a spanking being administered to the unruly amongst us. Cobblers!

This was quiet until the usual provocation to get a 'personal' slapping down by His Grace..You RC's are the most needy bunch of religious folk I have ever come across.
A new crass Tiberian sit com appears to be unfolding ; Pope Benny's Boys.

Perhaps invoking the aid of St. Cyriacus and St. Bruno may assist the tortured RC's here.
"O glorious St. Cyriacus and St. Bruno, mighty exorcists and intercessors, powerful in the struggle against rebel spirits, servants of the pope, deliver us from all evil and danger on this blog, who turn to you with confidence and enable us by your gracious protection to serve the pope more and more faithfully every day by whatever means possible, especially bless our Benedict Medals worn in the nether regions, to ward off gays and their advances to us, which can be very tempting at times.
Pray for us, O glorious St. Cyriacus and St. Bruno, Martyrs of the Church of Rome, that we may be made worthy of it's promises by kicking the bejazzles out of others who we feel deserve it." *Cheeky Chuckles*

Blofeld

3 February 2013 09:36  
Blogger len said...

Inspector' Dodo - how did you DO that' ?

There is only one possible answer. and it `aint rocket science.

3 February 2013 09:37  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

"There are many Catholics who visit this blog who post erudite and rational comments. " Blast me eyesight..I must have missed miraculously them somehow!

Blofeld

3 February 2013 09:41  
Blogger len said...

Ernst. LOL. me too.

3 February 2013 09:49  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Prediction fulfilled!

len waited a while but sure as the Sun rises in the East he jumped on the back (Ahem...) of our little homosexual trouble maker to throw false accusations around.

You see my magic orb works with protestants too.

3 February 2013 13:57  
Blogger len said...

You are into the occult Dodo?....well I know I shouldn`t really be that surprised.. pagan origins and all that?

3 February 2013 14:07  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

len

.... look out, its behind you. The cats are gathering.

3 February 2013 16:41  
Blogger len said...

That beak is taking on a very sinister look Dodo.Also a very strange glint in that eye.?.

3 February 2013 18:08  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

That's your paranoid delusions resurfacing - time for the pill.

3 February 2013 21:42  

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