Tuesday, February 12, 2013

Film footage of the lightning strike on St Peter's



Further to His Grace's theo-scientific observations on yesterday's lightning bolt descending on the dome of St Peter's Basilica, the BBC have done us proud with this stunning capture of the event.

His Grace will give his thoughts on the papal succession over the coming days. He is loath to irritate or upset Fr Xander Lucie-Smith at the Catholic Herald with tedious Anglican pontifications, but surely when a man claims to be Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, and that church purports to be the One True Church, claiming universal jurisdiction in succession of the Prince of the Apostles, then the Roman Catholic experts (of which Fr Xander is undoubtedly one) must be prepared to put up with 'all and sundry pontificating on all matters Papal and religious', not least because the next pope will be Pope of all and sundry, will he not?

115 Comments:

Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace

According to one news report:

'POPE Benedict's shock resignation came like "like a lightning bolt in a clear blue sky'' according to one of his senior cardinals.

'Then, just hours after the Pontiff dropped the bombshell that he no longer had the health and vigour to carry out his duties as leader of the world's 1.1 billion Catholics, a freak thunderstorm swept over Rome and a lighting bolt struck the basilica of St.Peter's dome.'

Just what is going on in the vatican?

12 February 2013 12:52  
Blogger John Chater said...

"The challenge will be in having to watch the airwaves fill with a whole load of people who are very marginal to Church life, and yet who will be invited to pontificate on all matters Papal and religious, giving it their own particular slant, which they will advance as a mainstream view."

For example, envious Anglicans who poorly Photoshop pictures of the Pope or ramble on about lightning bolts…

(D. Singh - it's not a 'freak thunderstorm'. They are not uncommon at this time of the year in Italy. St Peter's is the tallest building in the vicinity, with a great deal of protected ironwork. It's not too difficult to figure it out.)


12 February 2013 13:02  
Blogger MFH said...

Is Peters pretender giving the job up for ever or just for lent... we should be told.

12 February 2013 14:20  
Blogger Demetrius said...

Will Cherie Blair be Pope Joan II?

12 February 2013 15:00  
Blogger John Chater said...

Nope, she will be Pope Tony the First.

12 February 2013 15:06  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

The grandeur that is Rome rather makes the women bishop campaigning homosexual advocating today people in the Sect of England look damn silly with their plans for eight lovelies to rule over men, what !

12 February 2013 15:24  
Blogger John Chater said...

There's a thought Inspector. Next Pope will probably be an Italian peacock or an old-school African, which should set the 'progressives' back about 500 years. Shame.

12 February 2013 15:51  
Blogger David B said...

"...but surely when a man claims to be Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, and that church purports to be the One True Church, claiming universal jurisdiction in succession of the Prince of the Apostles, then the Roman Catholic experts (of which Fr Xander is undoubtedly one) must be prepared to put up with 'all and sundry pontificating on all matters Papal and religious', not least because the next pope will be Pope of all and sundry, will he not?"

Only if the claims regarding universality etc are true.

Else not.

However, I rather hope that Father Xander's annoyance at watching others pontificate regarding the succession is put in the shade by his annoyance at seeing more and more exposure of Ratzinger's role in preventing the abuse scandal coming to light, at enormous cost to the victims, and I see signs that there might be further financial scandals in which Ratzinger has played a role emerging as time elapses.

Further I hope that the princes of the church are further annoyed at their declining influence on their flocks, including politicians, in areas where they previously held sway, like the Philippines.

David B

12 February 2013 16:05  
Blogger Jon said...

The Pope has assumed the right to "pontificate" on the very lives of others with his role in covering up sexual abuse of children, and his position on condoms.

Catholics complaining about people speculating about some random old man's mere job is rich indeed.

Let the whinging of the entitled commence.

12 February 2013 16:45  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Seems to me most of the whinging is being done by the Tim-haters. And would you people at least have the decency to stop hiding behind the victims of abuse, as though you cared; at least len is honest about what he hates.

12 February 2013 17:13  
Blogger David B said...

Tim?

Some of us, in contrast to the princes of the church and some of its minions, do care not only about the fate of the abused, but the enormity of the cover up, and the claims that the church has concerns with eternal verities when its powers that be have lost their moral compass to the point that they cannot see that shunting criminals around to repeat offences against young, vulnerable kids is wrong.

Corrigan, could you at least have the decency to stop defending the indefensible.

David

12 February 2013 17:40  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Hear hear Corrigan !

What particularly galls this man regarding the abuse issue is the biggest broadcasters of their disgust are the very type of people who committed the damned offences. Have we a correlation here that stands up, one wonders...

12 February 2013 17:41  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

...And then we have the evangelical atheists cashing in too. How damn low can people get ?

12 February 2013 17:44  
Blogger John Chater said...

Even the ungrateful dead are being recruited to have a go at the Pope. Below I quote from the redoubtable Bill Donohue, of the Catholic League, whose observations on the ghoul Christopher Hitchens are worth repeating, clarifying as they do the truth about what the Pope may or may not have known. Should stick in the throat of a few of you.

“Hitchens has been brought back from the dead by Slate and Andrew Sullivan, but it won’t do them any good. Yesterday, they republished a hit piece by the atheist from 2010 that was vintage Hitchens: the man was a great polemicist but a third-class scholar. Facts never mattered to him.

“Hitchens said the scandal “has only just begun.” Wrong. It began in the mid-60s and ended in the mid-80s. Current reports are almost all about old cases.

“Hitchens said Munich Archbishop Joseph Ratzinger (the pope) transferred an offending cleric to another parish. Wrong. Ratzinger’s deputy placed the priest in a new parish after he received therapy (the tonic loved by those pushing rehabilitation), and even the New York Times admitted there was no evidence that Ratzinger knew about it. By the way, there were 1,717 priests serving under him at the time.

“Hitchens said Ratzinger wrote a 2001 letter to the bishops telling them it was a crime to report sexual abuse. Wrong. The letter dealt with desecrating the Eucharist, and the sexual solicitation by a priest in the confessional (the letter cited a 1962 document detailing harsh sanctions).

“Hitchens said Ratzinger was obstructing justice when he crafted new norms on sexual abuse in 2001. Wrong. He actually added new sanctions and extended the statute of limitations for such offenses.

“Hitchens says Ratzinger ignored accusations against Father Marcial Maciel. Wrong. It was Benedict who got him removed from ministry (he was too infirm to put on trial) and put his religious order in receivership.

“In short, Hitchens’ hatred of Catholicism allowed him to swing wildly. That he should be resurrected by Slate and Andrew Sullivan makes them all look incompetent, as well as vicious.”


12 February 2013 18:41  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Brothers and sisters of the Cyber Swiss Guard

"The challenge will be in having to watch the airwaves fill with a whole load of people who are very marginal to Church life, and yet who will be invited to pontificate on all matters Papal and religious, giving it their own particular slant, which they will advance as a mainstream view."

No mention of Anglicans - they are not marginal to Catholic life; they're just not a part of it; let them and atheists sneer away. They probably feel excluded from one of the most significant events on earth.

Indeed, Fr Xander Lucie-Smith was concerned with Roman Catholics (such as our friend Tiberias?):

"I haven’t yet seen Hans Küng grace our screens, but he is just the sort of person I mean: a man whose theology is greatly at variance with what Catholics believe, and yet who will perhaps pop up as a Catholic expert."

And the opportunity:

" ... some excellent Catholics who get the call to appear on Newsnight and other programmes will have the opportunity to put the case for the Church – to let the Church appear as it really is, not as the professional Pope-haters would love it to be. We must wish them well in their task – for many of them it will be a descent into the lions’ den – and pray unrelentingly for them."

Chins up, man the web and be considered in our posts, what!.

12 February 2013 18:41  
Blogger John Chater said...

Well said Dodo - fight the good fight and, wherever possible, follow the good advice to avoid anyone who describes their profession as 'ex-nun'.

12 February 2013 18:49  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

The new Pope, St Peters descendant, will be the leader of the universal church.

He will need no "pontification" from the empty vessels of deficient organisations.

12 February 2013 19:31  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Well said, that John Chater. One is now well used to anti Catholic artillery being wheeled out during a papal election. A rather unpleasant mix of Protestantism and atheism. Bring it on detractors, we are ready for you...

12 February 2013 19:31  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

John, Henry and Inspector

Yes, we can certainly expect some *interesting* articles and *erudite* commentary over the next few weeks. I see from Twitter the blog owner is warming up nicely.

As my good mother would say, "These things are sent to try us." Somehow it seems fitting that Lent begins tomorrow.

12 February 2013 20:01  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Do you think the newly appointed (by diverse Committee selection and political recommendation) is a tad peeved? His enthronement on March 21, 2013, is being a tad upstaged by events in Rome just 7 days later?

12 February 2013 20:11  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

i.e.
newly appointed Archbishop of Canterbury, the spiritual leader of the Anglican Communion, Primate of All England, and bishop of the Diocese of Canterbury.

12 February 2013 20:29  
Blogger len said...

The Pope is a frail old man without the energy to carry out his duties.This man is[supposedly] the head of 'the church' on Earth.

A lightning bolt produces about 10,000 amps but some bolts have measured well over 100,000 amps which is a lot on energy if it could be harnessed.

Can God be telling us something?



12 February 2013 20:55  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Dunno len, what ya reckon? You're the one supposedly give to prophetic insight.

12 February 2013 21:09  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Corrigan, could you at least have the decency to stop defending the indefensible.

This from David B.

You'll notice that he's now accusing me of supporting child sexual abuse. Would that be because I'm a Catholic or because I don't apologize for it?

12 February 2013 21:32  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Jon

"Catholics complaining about people speculating about some random old man's mere job is rich indeed"

As a non-Catholic and a non-Christian, I would say that the position of Pope is important to read about, because there at a billion plus Roman Catholics who look to that person as a spiritual and moral leader, greater than the population of the USA and as much as China's, so the position of Pope- like it or not- is something more than "an old man's job".

(Although of course when the discussion numbers game and conspiracy theories are looked that, they are not necessarily in correlation, thus Judaism has 0.171% of the planet's religious affiliation, yet nearly 99% of the conspiracy theories attached to it...).

12 February 2013 21:36  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Hannah,

It would have been ironic if Cardinal Sin, Archbishop of Milan, was still around to be elected...

12 February 2013 21:50  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Sorry Archbishop of Manila !

12 February 2013 21:51  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Len,

"The Pope is a frail old man without the energy to carry out his duties.This man is[supposedly] the head of 'the church' on Earth"


I say this will all due respect, as a non Christian, but for all we know the Pope could be suffering from an illness such as dementia and decided it was the best thing, in terms of human dignity, to step aside. I think the man was in his eighties, so fair dues to the guy for going on as long as he did.

12 February 2013 21:56  
Blogger David B said...

Corrigan 21.32

What I said was 'Corrigan, could you at least have the decency to stop defending the indefensible.'

Even now senior RCC officials are fighting kicking and screaming against passing their records concerning abuse, and the actions taken (or not) against the abusers, over to civil authorities.

I find that indefensible. You?

I could go on of course. The treatment of Law, a senior coverer upper etc etc

David

12 February 2013 21:59  
Blogger Callum Lane said...

It's not his position on condoms, it's the Church's.
As to any purported cover up, the general presumption used to be innocent until proven guilty.

12 February 2013 22:13  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

David: "I say this will all due respect, as a non Christian, but for all we know the Pope could be suffering from an illness such as dementia and decided it was the best thing, in terms of human dignity, to step aside."

For all the levity on social media, I think there's something to be said for that. It was painful to watch his predecessor decline in the public eye like he did.

12 February 2013 22:17  
Blogger Callum Lane said...

Well let's be equal in this and direct the same amount of vitriol and airtime to demanding all the secular establishments and other denominations release their records. The New York Education authorities have refused to release their records, the Welsh authorities have a fine line in being at best transluscent as opposed to transparent, the BBC has only just been found out.
The crimes were terrible, but they were the exception not the norm and were the exception and not the norm in every child welfare and care facility and organisation. It is a societal problem, not a Catholic problem, the bitter failure is that the abuse was carried out by the very people we entrusted with the care of our children.

12 February 2013 22:25  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Well let's be equal in this and direct the same amount of vitriol and airtime to demanding all the secular establishments and other denominations release their records. The New York Education authorities have refused to release their records, the Welsh authorities have a fine line in being at best transluscent as opposed to transparent, the BBC has only just been found out.

None of them are the Catholic Church. While we're on the subject, perhaps it's time somebody pointed out the elephant in the room; most of the victims of abuse within Catholicism were boys, not girls. So how come it's never referred to as homosexual clerical abuse?

12 February 2013 23:18  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Corrigan

Abuse is still abuse no matter the sexual proclivity of the abuser.

Maybe sexual abuse on teenage boys by homosexual clerics would be a better description. However, it is a bit long winded and doesn't make for a good sound bite.

12 February 2013 23:27  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

12 February 2013 23:57  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

12 February 2013 23:58  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Corrigan,

I think that abuse in any religious organisation needs to be tackled, be reported to the secular authorities and not covered up. I would have no compunction in reporting suspected abuse myself, if it had happened in my own religious community.

But to tackle your post -

This is because gays and straight people adhere to the view that sexual contact is about consent and within the legal limit for intercourse in the UK is 16.

Pedophiles, by contrast, act in a different way, by raping and abusing minors, without consent and below the limit- in any case I think by your own rules Priests are NOT supposed to have any sexual contact at all. I think that by trying to shift responsibility from the Church to gays is quite disgraceful.

And when you say..."he's now accusing me of supporting child sexual abuse. Would that be because I'm a Catholic or because I don't apologize for it?"

Well your Church should, at the very least, acknowledge and apologize for sexual abuse; if you don't want to apologise for the abuse then that is a poor reflection on you, isn't it?

It is ironic that you get on your high horse about how terrible Israel is as a state, but you cannot see the massive, colossal, plank in your own eye when it comes to past abuses in your own Church. WTF, springs to mind.

13 February 2013 00:01  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Hannah

Point of information - the Catholic Church has apologised, repeatedly, for the sexual misconduct of it Priests and for the harm inflicted on those abused.

13 February 2013 00:26  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Dodo,

My remarks were more directed at Corrigan's remarks, than your faith per se .

13 February 2013 00:30  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Hannah

I know.

13 February 2013 00:50  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Hannah

Desire does not transmute into homosexual desire by the mere addition of consent. Desire does not require consent or even consummation. It only requires an object. When a 30 year-old man experiences sexual desire for a 15 year-old post-pubescent boy, that is homosexual desire. When that man has sex with the boy, that is homosexual behavior. Indeed, homosexuality may only be identified by a self-report of homosexual desire or the observation of homosexual behavior.

The abuse crisis in the RCC was overwhelmingly a crisis of men seducing vulnerable teenaged boys. That by definition implies homosexual desire on the part of the offending priests. There are many people who want to suppress that fact. It leads to uncomfortable questions that people don't want to answer. Like:

1. Why did so many homosexual priests in the RCC decide to seduce teenaged boys?

2. Would there have been a crisis if the RCC had prevented ordination of homosexual men?

carl

13 February 2013 01:05  
Blogger David B said...

Dodo

"Point of information - the Catholic Church has apologised, repeatedly, for the sexual misconduct of it Priests and for the harm inflicted on those abused."

While at the same time resisting making its records over to civil authorities, and trying hard, in many cases, which still continue, to save itself for paying out compensation to the abused.

Has it apologised to those it made swear oaths of silence on pain of excommunication yet?

Or acknowledged the further damage that that sort of thing and the questioning of its internal enquiries have done to the vulnerable?

Or made those responsible have any personal consequences at all, other than sometimes being given cushy, prestigious jobs in the Vatican to get them away from civil authorities?

Please stop defending the indefensible. Apologies are cheap, and in many cases worse than useless.

David

13 February 2013 08:53  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

David

I am defending nobody. You have such a bitter outlook on all things religious.

13 February 2013 09:42  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

***************Latest News From The Blofeld Bugle******************

JOB OF THE WEEK

Listed on Jobcentre pIus

An unforeseen vacancy has arisen in the Vatican and candidates are cordially
invited to submit their Curriculum Vitae.


Full Time Pontiff
Contract: Permanent
Location: Vatican City, Rome


An historical universally authorised Church is seeking a Full-time Male to fill the Chair of St Peter, to lead and take forward a growing but problematic church with a single minded attitude serving the Roman Catholic worldwide diocese.

Sharing the Good News that Rome is supreme and infallible.
Community Serving Rome
Growing as Roman Catholics by blind obedience
Matthew 16:18

As key-holder to the Kingdom of Heaven, must be able to show that he will never misplace them as the normal male is prone to. Must enjoy human contact as much kissing and worshiping of the personage by others is obligatory from the faithful in this role. For in virtue of his office, that is as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he can always exercise this power freely....interested?

The job envisages much worldwide travel (with the opportunity to gain a massive amount of air-miles that are redeemable on Roman Catholic certified internet sites) and the need to build one way bridges with leaders of other Christian denominations and leaders of Sister Churches.

Closing date: Noon on 28 February 2013

For application pack please contact: neropontifexmaximus@tiberonthe7hills.666.it
Interviews: 13-27 February 2013

Candidates must be Roman Catholic, fluent in Latin, expect to become intrinsically infallible (being a Marian helps to make the completed application a shoe-in) and enjoy being carried around or pushed along on a moving platform. Nausea/motion sickness maybe an issue for some candidates..Dramamine can be supplied for the successful candidate from the Sistine pharmacy. Being versed in theology is not something that would be detrimental to your application but we believe ignorance is bliss!

*Please, NO Pensioners need apply!*.

Appointment will be subject to international Enhanced DBS checks, so please have a good alibi ready if needs be.

PS

You will also be head of state on behalf of the smallest nation on earth, with all the usual guaranteed immunities so being obtuse would be viewed as a virtue by the selecting conclave.

13 February 2013 09:46  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Ernsty

A reasonable person specification for potential applicants for the Seat of St. Peter.

However, one or two errors are manifest, old boy.

" ... expect to become intrinsically infallible".

The Pope is not intrinsically infallible and Catholic teaching does not teach this. Do swat up on the doctrine.

"Being versed in theology is not something that would be detrimental to your application but we believe ignorance is bliss!

Any future Pope will be expected to represent the message of Christ to the world. He will, of course, be guided by the Holy Spirit and have extremely knowledgeable and competent advisers. However, ignorance in this situation is not considered a virtue.

*Please, NO Pensioners need apply!*.

Age is no barrier at all. The Vatican is not an ageist organisation. The only effective *discrimination* would be women, acting homosexuals, those with confused sexual identity or with deep rooted homosexual tendencies.
Appointment will be subject to international

"Enhanced DBS checks, so please have a good alibi ready if needs be."

No alibi for gross misconduct damaging the Christian Church would be acceptable.

Any applicant would have to be willing to accept ordination into the Catholic priesthood if successful and faithfully make and keep all the sacred vows. So, for example, a married man might not be excluded if he was prepared to leave his wife and children and enter the priesthood - just like the first Prince of the Apostles.

And one final observation. Something really should be said about the position being filled by private voting of Cardinals, using their consciences and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The recruitment process is not subject to earthly equal opportunity safeguards, being spiritual in nature, and will be taking place in a Sovereign State, unfettered by EU and Human Rights civil law Regulation.

Not an entirely bad first draft but more work needed before publication.

5 out of 10.



13 February 2013 11:11  
Blogger Corrigan said...

If I am "on my high horse" about Israel, it's because Israel, unlike the Catholic Church, is completely unrepentant, completely unapologetic about what it has done to the Palestinians; as a matter of fact, it is actually proud of it. Whatever it suits people like David B to believe, the Catholic Church has made huge efforts to improve itself; what has Israel done besides lying louder each time it's challanged?

At this point, the sex abuse scandal within Catholicism is historical; accusations coming to light today are invariably from twenty or thirty years ago at the latest, and while that's small comfort for the victims, it at least indicates a sea change within the Church.

Catholics like me are aware of all of this, yet we still have to listen to the likes of David B bleeding all over the carpet about this; a more cynical mind than mine might suspect he's scraping the side of the barrel because the Catholic Church won't always tell people what they want to hear. If you're doing wrong, they'll tell you so, and Liberals don't like that. That's the reason why people like him don't care about, for example, the scandal of the Hasidim in Brooklyn; the Hasidim don't care what the Goyim do, which gives the Liberals a free pass. It doesn't matter that the Hasidic scandal is far from being historical; they can abuse their own till the cows come home, so long as they leave the Liberals to live like pigs. That's the reason you hear little or nothing about it in the media, and the reason you never hear the end of the Catholic scandals from three decades ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/10/nyregion/ultra-orthodox-jews-shun-their-own-for-reporting-child-sexual-abuse.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

13 February 2013 11:18  
Blogger David B said...

Some no doubt will find The Onion's report of the Pope's resignation amusing and apposite.

Others no doubt will not.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/resigning-pope-no-longer-has-strength-to-lead-chur,31248/?ref=auto

David

13 February 2013 12:38  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

David B

Even amongst lies there is great truth.

"I doubt we’ll ever find another leader so committed to reversing society’s natural progression of post-Enlightenment values. He will truly be missed."

I'm confident the Holy Spirit will find a leader more than capable of withstanding the atheistic, secular and hedonistic pressures being placed on the Church to "modernise" and "adapt" to the world.

13 February 2013 12:47  
Blogger David B said...

Corrigan, if you look back through the past threads here you will notice that I do not confine my criticism to the Catholics.

I have been rather outspoken on the ills of circumcision, whether done by Jews or Muslims, and I have also posted in a manner very sympathetic to your position regarding the plight of the Palestinians.

You are right, though, to point out that sexual abuse and cover ups are far from confined to the Catholics, though the scale of the issue in the RCC coupled with the resignation of the Pope has rather led some of us to concentrate on the issue of Catholic abuses and cover-ups.

I shall endeavour to rectify my failings by omission in future, by bringing to the congregation's attention the further exposure of abuse and cover up of abuse from non-catholic Christian sects, and from Jews, Muslims and any other groups where such events are exposed, including secular ones.

Please note that in this context I use the term 'Jew' to refer to followers of the Jewish religion.

I deplore any attempt to pick on any group on grounds of ethnicity, but reserve the right to criticise what I perceive as the ills performed of any group, and consequent attempts to cover up, on the basis of their own superstitions.

David

13 February 2013 13:20  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

David B said...

Trust you will have plenty to say on the abuses of humanity, past and present, of your atheistic adherent states around the world? or are British atheists unique in that they see nor hear no wrong from their own followers?

Blofeld

13 February 2013 13:39  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

David B,

I think Dodo summed up things well when he said of you

"You have such a bitter outlook on all things religious".

And you are supposed to be the enlightened liberal amongst us.

13 February 2013 13:39  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Corrigan,

So basically you are inferring 'our abuse wasn't was bad as your abuse'. That is a pathetic argument. Abuse is abuse and is wrong and should be reported to the appropriate secular authorities and let the law take its course. That goes for Jews, Catholics Christians or even atheists.

13 February 2013 13:47  
Blogger David B said...

I do think religion does a lot of net harm in the world, which is not to say that in some instances it does not have some mitigating features.

That being my view, I see it as some sort of duty not to let what I perceive as its evils pass in silence.

David

13 February 2013 13:56  
Blogger Corrigan said...

No, I'm saying that "our abuse" has stopped. The point is that "our abuse" is a stick repeatedly used to beat the Catholic Church not because Liberals hate child abusers (they couldn't care less because Liberals don't actually care about anything except having more sex in interesting positions), but because they don't like having it put to them that they are pigs. The Hasidim don't do that because they consider the Goyim to be pigs anyway and therefore don't bother labouring the point, so as far as Liberals are concerned, it's "grab yourself a cherry, rabbi."

13 February 2013 13:58  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

So, for example, a married man might not be excluded if he was prepared to leave his wife and children and enter the priesthood - just like the first Prince of the Apostles."
Really, St Paul, who knew Peter pretty well, more than we, says otherwise .
1 Cor 9:1-8
1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?
2 If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this:
4 Do we not have a right to eat and drink?
{5 Do we not have a right to TAKE ALONG a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas (St Peter)?}
6 Or do only Barnabas and I not have a right to refrain from working?
7 Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock?
8 I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things?"

This letter was written when St Peter, according to Roman fable, was already sitting on a seat in Rome? but what would St Paul know, hmm.
Ernst

13 February 2013 14:01  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

David B said ...
" ... the scale of the issue, that is sexual abuse within the Catholic Church, in the RCC coupled with the resignation of the Pope has rather led some of us to concentrate on the issue of Catholic abuses and cover-ups."

Now that says far more about the noble "us" (that is the anti-atheists, atheists, agnostics, secularists and God alone knows what else) than it does about ether of these quite distinct matters.

Ernsty
Well said, that upstanding and fine old codger!

Such noble expressions of care and concern for humanity trip from David's fingers as he types his message of godlessness.

He boldly declares:

"I deplore any attempt to pick on any group on grounds of ethnicity, but reserve the right to criticise what I perceive as the ills performed of any group, and consequent attempts to cover up, on the basis of their own superstitions."

It would help, of course, if he defined how "suspicions" and how he intends to measure this phenomenon, objectively, or there again, maybe subjectively, speaking.

While I'm on, Ernsty please include the following in the second draft of the Pope's person spec. you're preparing:

The ability to lead Christ's sheep in the midst of wolves and capable of discerning and responding to the signs of these times. The applicant must be endowed with special gifts from the Holy Spirit to be wise as a serpent and pure as a dove.

13 February 2013 14:09  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

David Kavanagh

There are many people who view the RCC abuse crisis not just in terms of the abused victims. They see it as confirmation of their preset opinion of the RCC. It becomes the ultimate apologetic argument: "You are as false as we thought you were. The abuse crisis proves it" That is the difference.

carl

13 February 2013 14:09  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Corrigan,

Sorry completely lost the point you are trying to make with your argument. I think I got lost with the bit about how Jews think gentiles are pigs, which doesn't seem to have much to do with the topic, but a lot to do with your own outlook towards people?

13 February 2013 14:12  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Carl,

Correct. This is in essence where David B is coming from re the Catholic faith or his attacks on all of the other faiths; perhaps Corrigan is doing that as well with his opinions on the Jewish faith?.

And this logic can be applied to anything you want to- soviet russia under Stalin means all socialists will act like stalin, once in power, for example.

13 February 2013 14:19  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Dangerous thing for me to say in my position but one has some understanding and sympathy with the Ultra-Orthodox Hasidim in New York surrounded by hostile Goyim.

I think the liberal press will attack any group or body it sees as important in maintaining values to which it is opposed. It simply waits until those institutions or group place themselves in a vulnerable position.

And I say this as someone who has for 30 years has been a part of an advancing State apparatus spreading and enforcing a secular orthodoxy on families and communities. It is done in the name of protecting the vulnerable and advancing the common good.

This is not too say that abuse should ever be covered up. It must be reported to the civil authorities. Full stop. What it does mean is that the barriers preventing such reporting by some groups and by some institutions must be properly understood and overcome. The Hasidim Jew will have to accept this reality and their leaders will need to come to terms with their otherwise private family and religious lives being examined.

13 February 2013 14:26  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Dodo,

I think the liberal press will attack any group or body it sees as important in maintaining values to which it is opposed.

No, only those which actually oppose it; the Catholic Church does, but the Hasidim don't care what non-Jews do to each other, therefore the "liberal press" will generally ignore what they might get up to in their own enclaves.

David Kavanagh,

I was referring specifically to the Hasidic community in Brooklyn, not "about how Jews think gentiles are pigs". But I think you probably knew that before you pulled out the "anti-Semite" tar-brush.

13 February 2013 14:33  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Dikkie

"While I'm on, Ernsty please include the following in the second draft of the Pope's person spec. you're preparing:

The ability to lead Christ's sheep in the midst of wolves and capable of discerning and responding to the signs of these times. The applicant must be endowed with special gifts from the Holy Spirit to be wise as a serpent and pure as a dove. " This is just between my sweet bird and old Ernst..It was a spoof, a jest, a play on parodies perceived or not.

Blowers

13 February 2013 15:03  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

I know, numpty, and I was playing along with you. A parody of a parody, containing a message.

13 February 2013 15:14  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

You may have a point Corrigan. But why are the liberals now questioning circumcision amongst Jews? What's to be gained? I think there is a wider attack on all theistic religions with a belief in a God given morality.

13 February 2013 15:19  
Blogger David B said...

Some of us may see an allegedly God given morality that involves the mutilation of kiddies genitalia as more child abuse than morality.

David

13 February 2013 17:11  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

It's not just the child sexual abuse, of course. There's the child physical abuse and cruelty, the Magdalene Laundries and the adoption scandals too. Moreover, there's probably more to come out as the RCC loses its grip on various societies and people feel freer to speak out. The RCC, and any religious organisation to my mind, shouldn't get that sort of social power.

13 February 2013 18:11  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...



Benedict’s successor may well be the last fellow in as Pope before the ‘apocalypse’. One also predicts a rather large increase in church attendance in the not too distant future…

BBC Newsite: Health officials in the UK believe they have the strongest evidence yet that a new respiratory illness similar to the deadly Sars virus can spread from person to person

The Inspector remembers the conclusion scientists who investigated Spanish flu in the last century came to. As one microbiologist put it, we are only one or two virus mutations away from something really horrible, because it's happened before...





13 February 2013 18:12  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...



After Benedict resigning, we have another bolt out of the blue. David B being taken seriously, no less. The man has a psychosis about cults, and mind control resulting from, and the weak of mind, failures, and hopeless cases drawn in by. He sees organised Christianity of whatever flavour a mere extension of his paranoid nightmare. And he doesn’t think any better about muslims and pagans.

What is the point therefore, in exchanging thoughts with such damaged goods ?

One suggests that if you ignore him, he’ll scuttle back to Secular Café and the companionship of mockers like Tingey, and with any luck, not come back !





13 February 2013 18:13  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0. The Magdalene laundries provided a home and occupation for troubled women who otherwise may have ended up on the street. But of course, that doesn’t sit well with your liberal judgmental ill informed and somewhat ignorant take on times past...


13 February 2013 18:16  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0...and of course, we all know about the biggest adoption scandal of the lot. Nothing to do with the church though !

13 February 2013 18:18  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "But of course, that doesn’t sit well with your liberal judgmental ill informed and somewhat ignorant take on times past..."

I'm listening to the testimonies of a number of people who were actually there, and taking account of the roundabout apology the Taoiseach gave in parliment. Foolish and ignorant me, I should simply take your opinion as fact instead.

13 February 2013 18:24  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "One suggests that if you ignore him, he’ll scuttle back to Secular Café and the companionship of mockers like Tingey, and with any luck, not come back !"

You could simply invite him to leave. Afterall, that has clearly worked a treat with various other people here.

13 February 2013 18:26  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

The Way of Dodo said...

I know, numpty, and I was playing along with you. A parody of a parody, containing a message.

Playing along..Playing along would have been to introduce some wit into the parody. Your comment was (Ahem)..Wit Less. ;-O

Blowers

13 February 2013 18:50  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0. One of the testimonies came from an ingrate for which board and lodging for her work wasn’t enough. She wanted to be paid on top. They told her to leave. Hardly slavery now, was it ?

But of course, that wouldn’t sit well your liberal judgmental ill informed and somewhat ignorant take on times past..."




13 February 2013 18:55  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Move over, Iraqi Information Minister, there's a new kid on the block.

13 February 2013 19:18  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

DanJ0 said ...
"You could simply invite him to leave. Afterall, that has clearly worked a treat with various other people here."

You're time will come. For now he is too focused on an imaginary Cyber Swiss Guard. An idea you have been quick to seize on and suggest there's some orchestrated attempt to wreck this blog.

Ernsty
Fair comment but one was rather constrained in one's attempt to parody what was a witless parody in the first place.

Know wot I mean, like?

13 February 2013 19:30  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

'You're (sic) time will come. For now he is too focused on an imaginary Cyber Swiss Guard. An idea you have been quick to seize on and suggest there's some orchestrated attempt to wreck this blog.'

'Imaginary'? How sad. Another pontificated slur in a puerile attempt to cast doubt upon His Grace's mental health. For the record, following years of dialogical observation, DanJ0 is among the more reasonable, enlightened and polite communicants upon His Grace's blog.

13 February 2013 19:46  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

{GASP!} The Inspector is floored. Truly !

Which particular DanJ0 would this be, eminence. Surely not the current title holder ?

13 February 2013 20:16  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Silentium est aurum.

13 February 2013 20:48  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo, this hideous night, the Archbishop plays a devilish trick on those that adhere to Rome. Wrong is right and right is wrong, no less !

13 February 2013 21:03  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Whatever I am, what I am not is someone who deliberately goads or insults or attacks the blog owner on his own site.

13 February 2013 21:08  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Saints preserve us !

13 February 2013 21:15  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

His Grace asks “… because the next pope will be Pope of all and sundry, will he not?”

An interesting question the answer to which is complicated because we appear to be in the End Times prophesied by Our Lord. The prophecy of Daniel Chapter 9 specifically mentions that the prophecy had to be sealed away until the End Times. Jesus refers to the prophecy of Daniel when he states that when you see the disastrous abomination set up in the Holy place, then those in Judea must escape to the hills (Matthew 24). The Holy place can only refer to either the Temple in Jerusalem or to the Throne of Peter.

We know that the Communists and Freemasons have been infiltrating the Catholic Church since the 1920’s and they are in place today so before the true final Pope appears we might see a traitor on the throne of Peter. That would be a disastrous abomination because he will not be the Pope of all and sundry but the servant of satan.

“And there was a great battle in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought, and his angels ... 9 And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduces the whole world. And he was cast unto the earth … Woe to the earth and to the sea, because the devil has come down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he has but a short time”. Revelation 12

Daniel Chapter 9, states that 70 weeks are decreed for an end to transgression and the coming of the holy of holies (i.e. the second coming of Christ) measured from the going forth of the message to return and rebuild Jerusalem. The going forth of the message was in 1947 when the UN declared that that the State of Israel be set up. If we interpret the weeks to mean years we are already approaching the time, two times and half a time (Dn 7.25, 12.7 and Revelation 12.4) when the anti-christ will rule and we will see the time of great tribulation prophesied by Jesus. If the holy sacrifice of the mass is abolished the world will enter its most bitter trial.

13 February 2013 21:29  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Shacklefree, when it comes to ‘the end’, put your money on a virus. As we have seen, the end has already come to the promiscuous male homosexual community...


13 February 2013 21:45  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Spot the difference inn approach.

Inspector said ...
"Dodo, this hideous night, the Archbishop plays a devilish trick on those that adhere to Rome. Wrong is right and right is wrong, no less !"

DanJ0 said...
"Whatever I am, what I am not is someone who deliberately goads or insults or attacks the blog owner on his own site."

13 February 2013 21:51  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Before I earn another (sic) that is in.

13 February 2013 21:52  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Can we have a debate please instead of personal attacks?

13 February 2013 21:54  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Shacklefree said ...

"If we interpret the weeks to mean years we are already approaching the time, two times and half a time (Dn 7.25, 12.7 and Revelation 12.4) when the anti-christ will rule and we will see the time of great tribulation prophesied by Jesus."

And if we don't interpret the weeks as years? All this speculation about the "end times" is pointless and Jesus Himself tells us only His Father knows the day and the hour. As if the Bible is to be read an almanac in search of dates and times.

13 February 2013 22:24  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

It's true we are told no-one knows the hour but we are also told to read the signs of the times. Also Luke says nothing will happen which will not be made manifest (Luke 8.17).

Jesus says that when we see the fig tree blossom we know the time is near. The Fig tree is often interpreted as Israel and it has been blossoming but now is under serious threat. The Israelis have been trying to solve their problems by military might instead of trusting in God's power.

Zechariah 12 says "Behold I will make Jerusalem a lintel of surfeiting to all the people round about: and Juda also shall be in the siege against Jerusalem. 3 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone to all people: all that shall lift it up shall be rent and torn, and all the kingdoms of the earth shall be gathered together against her. 4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will strike every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open my eyes upon the house of Juda, and will strike every horse of the nations with blindness.

This is what we see before us and Zechariah goes on to say that "they will look on the one they have pierced Zechariah 12.10". That surely refers to the second coming so we can see the signs of the times appearing in front of us.

13 February 2013 23:25  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

So by your calculations - weeks being years from 1947 - when will is the great tribulation actually scheduled to begin?

14 February 2013 00:11  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Ps
Luke doesn't quite say what you have implied. Have a read of Mathew 10:26.

14 February 2013 00:23  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Dodo, like you, I’ve always been wary of times and dates but over the last couple of years I have been introduced to the mathematics which (while we have to be cautious) are significant enough to make us at least give them a second look. I’ve written about it in my book “The Time of Great Tribulation” published by Lulu .com. It’s quite short and there’s also an electronic version. Since publishing I have also come across the prophesies by the Medieval Rabbi Judah Ben Samuel who predicted in 1217 that the Turks would rule Jerusalem for 8 jubilees (from 1517to 1917), that Jerusalem would be a non-man’s land during the 9th jubilee and that the Messianic Age (second coming of Jesus) would begin in 2018. Sr. Lucia told us in 1957 that we are already in the End Times which occurs in the generation prophesied by Jesus when he said “In truth I tell you, before this generation has passed away, all these things will have taken place (Matthew 24). Christian and Jewish prophecy say the same things.

14 February 2013 10:16  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

14 February 2013 12:39  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

David B Said :

"Some of us may see an allegedly God given morality that involves the mutilation of kiddies genitalia as more child abuse than morality."

As usual Mr B, you show the typical lack of religious tolerance a 'tolerant' socialists is supposed to be tolerant of!

14 February 2013 12:41  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Shackefree,

If we are supposed to look out for the signs of the second coming, but what is the bally point? If it happens tomorrow, the world will end as we know it anyway. To my mind, I think it is better to lead a good and Christian life, rather than worrying about when the end will come.

14 February 2013 12:43  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Lord Lavendon,

You make a very good point and I do not disagree with you. Personally I find the subject of prophecy interesting but also it seems to me that it shows the signs of God's power and gives us hope. As we see events unfolding today which were prophesied 2000 and more years ago it gives us confidence that Almighty God is in control and that we can trust in His power to save us if only we are prepared to believe the Good News which is not the lies and distortions which David B always portrays. No-one claims that there have not been abuses but David B never engages with the actual teaching preferring to focus on the crimes. Convenient and also lazy. Perhaps if he saw how prophecy has actually come true he might soften his stance a little and follow where the evidence leads.

14 February 2013 16:46  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

ikkie

"'Imaginary'? How sad. Another pontificated slur in a puerile attempt to cast doubt upon His Grace's mental health. For the record, following years of dialogical observation, DanJ0 is among the more reasonable, enlightened and polite communicants upon His Grace's blog. "

Why oh why is Ernst missing in action when these ocasions happen..'ooh my Lord, Matron. Ernst has peed his pants laughing. Another quilted diaper if you wouldn't mind'.

14 February 2013 17:37  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Well there you go Ernsty. One knows not the time nor the hour, and must stay ever vigilant.

14 February 2013 21:22  
Blogger len said...

Well here`s a thought.

The statue of 'Peter' in the Vatican was previously 'Zeus'(who was known to throw a lightning bolt or two when he was displeased at something or somebody?.

16 February 2013 09:15  
Blogger Hauptmann Dodo said...

Heavens to Murgatroyd!!

The Abomination of Desolation is Revealed!!

The pagan Pontiff worships Zeus!!

16 February 2013 18:59  
Blogger len said...

I didn`t say anything about worship Dodo.

Can a bird speak like Balaam`s donkey?.

17 February 2013 09:12  
Blogger len said...

Antiochus was a type of' the Antichrist' predicted in the New Covenant. He put a statue of Zeus in the Temple.

'On the fifteenth day of the month, Casleu, in the hundred and forty-fifth year, king Antiochus set up the abominable idol of desolation upon the altar of God, and they built altars throughout all the cities of Juda round about.' ( I Maccabees 1:57).


It has been well reported that many centuries ago a statue of the pagan god Jupiter was found in Rome. The large bronze statue was altered and renamed St. Peter. One strong indication of this comes from John Parker: “By some writers, it is affirmed to be no other than the statue of Jupiter, with a new head and hands; others stating that this famous statue was melted down by order of Pope Leo I in the middle of the fifth century, and recast into this figure of S. Peter, holding the keys of heaven with one hand, whilst the other is raised in the act of benediction in the Roman manner, with the first and second and fingers extended” (The Archaeology of Rome, p. 38)

Ralph Woodrow, author of' Babylon Mystery Religion',: “This statue is looked upon with most profound veneration and its foot has been kissed so many times [by devotees] that the toes are nearly worn away!”

There is a strong possibility that this statue will return to Jerusalem to fulfil Bible Prophesy.

17 February 2013 09:57  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

'Brother' Len,

Regardless of your critique of Roman Catholicism, having done a quick google search, I do know that referencing "Ralph Woodrow : Babylon Mystery Religion" is not the best form of offering a critique of Dodo's religion, for I think that Ralph Woodrow wrote another book and has written since, disclaiming or at least clarifying his former views.

See :
http://www.ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/babylon-connection.html

and :

http://www.ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/babylon-mystery.html

17 February 2013 19:37  
Blogger Hauptmann Dodo said...

Why thank you, Brother David.

Brother len is, as usual, basing his views on assertion. There is no evidence for this statue being originally that of Jupiter (previously he claimed Zeus).

And I for one will not be holding my breath about his latest *predition*. For one thing, unless it grows wings and flys, I can't see it being moved.

17 February 2013 19:53  
Blogger len said...

Well actually, Zeus is a Greek god. When the Romans came along, they decided that they liked who the gods stood for. They just changed a few things. For one, they didn't want their gods to have flaws: they made them images of unattainable perfection. They also changed their names. They changed Zeus' name to Jupiter.

18 February 2013 19:37  
Blogger len said...

Much of Catholicism is straight out of Babylon, there is too much evidence to ignore the details.
When Constantine initiated the Catholic religion he incorporated many of the pagan gods and pagan practices into it( simply renaming them Zeus became 'Peter')

Catholicism is truly a 'Universal religion'in all senses of the word.To take just ONE item(there are hundreds of others) Mary the mother of Jesus has become(in Catholicism)'The Mother of God'(complete with child which she overshadows)In 1854, the Papacy declared Mary' sinless', and in 1951, they declared that she had 'ascended unto heaven', where she was crowned as the "Queen of heaven." This was called the Assumption of Mary. Since then, the complete system of Babylonian worship, with Mary taking the role of the mediatrix, has thus been established within Catholicism.

This is just one example of the way Catholicism has 'incorporated 'other (pagan) religions.

18 February 2013 20:04  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Brother Len,

Yes I studied classics too, so I am aware that the Roman Empire adopted the Greek deities as their own, but with different names.. An irony is that the planets are still named after the same Roman deities (perhaps aptly because I think that Jupiter, the head deity or Zeus in ancient Greek belief, is the biggest planet known to mankind, but my sister can correct me there).

But what does any of this have to do with the intellectual critique of Roman Christianity? I'd agree that Christianity 'Christianised' many other religious festivals of their own (Christmas being one and Passover being another), but why (as a Christian yourself) is that a bad idea ?

Or perhaps the planets should be renamed?

Any ideas on that?

18 February 2013 20:05  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi David,

Well I think that Dodo and Len could argue till the end of time about Catholicism.

There are planets bigger than Jupiter out there, but in our solar system, it is the largest planet. Interesting fact- the moon of the second largest planet, saturn, has, in one of its lakes, more liquid hydrocarbons (natural gas and potential crude oil) than the whole of earth? Trouble is that this liquid natural gas has a greater viscosity than, say, the Canadian oil sands.

18 February 2013 22:22  
Blogger len said...

Idol worship is something that God hates.Regarding the' golden calf' made by the Israelites God didn`t ask them to 'rename it' but to destroy it.Abram had to move Country to escape idol worship.
This is the problem with idolatry within the Catholic Church they have kept their pagan idols but re named them.
Would re naming the Planets change their construction?I guess it is the same with idols.

19 February 2013 08:18  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Len, I'm beginning to think your silliness is deliberate and dangerous. Yes the Roman's kept the Greek gods but changed their names. That was the Roman Empire Len - you know - the one that was throwing Catholics to the lions because they wouldn't bow down and worship the pagan gods of Rome. You are attempting to make connections where none exist and stretching credulity to the limit.

19 February 2013 19:56  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Capital post Shacklefree, but the fellow is beyond reasoning with. You see, he’s a thicko...

19 February 2013 20:43  
Blogger len said...

Shacklefree, Throwing' Catholics' to the lions?.

I assume you mean' Christians?.'.



20 February 2013 19:57  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Len, Perhaps you could enlighten us to which Protestants were thrown to the lions in ancient Rome? I think you'll find the number was a round zero. Apart from the Gnostic heretics all Christians recited the Creed which stated ".. and I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Do you not see any significance in the fact that although the Christians were an insignificant persecuted minority they regarded their religion as being Catholic (i.e. universal). Clearly this was because Christ had taught them this and the tradition was passed on in obedience to his teaching.

22 February 2013 15:26  
Blogger len said...

There was no false Church to 'protest about' pre Constantine(the first Pope)

The Church became an 'universal religion' when Constantine incorporated paganism .

24 February 2013 08:27  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

May I suggest you read Defending Constantine by Peter Leithart

25 February 2013 18:52  

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