Thursday, May 30, 2013

Are 'Power Christians' taking over the City of London?

Well this is curious.

On the one hand, we have the Rev'd George Pitcher in the New Statesman, persuaded that 'Power Christians' are taking over the City of London. And on the other, we have Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali in the Daily Telegraph telling us that the Faith has collapsed and capitulated to a toxic synthesis of political correctness and ascendant Islam. The Daily Mail today features empty church pews juxtaposed with overflowing mosques, which rather lends credence to the Bishop's view.

The only way of reconciling these apparently mutually-exclusive views is to reason that 'Power Christians' are an elite group of believers, strategically positioned by God in the temples of power, patiently awaiting the Parousia in eschatological fulfilment of Pauline prophecy. They are a kind of prosperity-preaching Bullingdon Christian - a savvy, wealthy, charismatic and cultured charism, perched somewhere between Boris and Billy Graham. They are 'taking over' not so much after the fashion of the Cameroon coup in the Conservative Party, but gently, incrementally under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, in accordance with the precepts of an Alpha Course.

Or else George Pitcher is a misguided and deluded fantasist - which isn't an unreasonable assertion, given that it was he who advised Rowan Williams back in 2011 to guest-edit the New Statesman and launch a quite unprecedented attack on the Coalition - curiously singling out education! Of all this Government's inadequacies and faults, education reform was a bizarre target for the Church of England to take a shot at. Indeed, 'Power Christians' would support Academies and Free Schools, not least because it gives them even more power than they already have with 26 bishops in the House of Lords, a Monarch who is Supreme Governor, and an Archbishop of Canterbury who is also a member of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards.

If God is taking over the City of London, it isn't YHWH or Jehovah, the named God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who is also the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. No, the god who is taking over is the one who has no name. He might call himself 'the God', but that is not a name; it is a job title. This god is not the one worshipped by Abraham or Moses, but an ancient pagan moon-god of fertility. It demands that it is prayed to several times a day, in accordance with rites which were practised long before the sixth century. There cannot be two mutually-exclusive revealed and historical faiths: there cannot be two 'straight paths' to salvation. And neither can there be a Christian 'take-over' of the City of London when the pews are empty and the sermons are as weak as milk. His Grace would believe Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali over the Rev'd George Pitcher any day of the week. We are in the post-Christian era. Prepare for tribulation.


Blogger Jay Bee said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

30 May 2013 at 10:59  
Blogger Jay Bee said...

So its not the Joos after all. Is anyone seriously going to believe that Christians are infiltrating the temple of mammon? Follow the money trail and I reckon you will end up in a hot region with lots of oil and gas but a severe shortage of stability.

30 May 2013 at 11:12  
Blogger John Wrake said...

There is a current trend abroad, which describes Judaism, Christianity and Islam as 'the Abrahamic faiths'. While this may be acceptable to the ignorant or those seeking the decay of all faiths, it posits a false equivalence.

Judaism and Christianity are founded, not on a family connection with Abraham, even though such a connection exists, but on God's revelation of Himself as it is made clear in the library of books that we call the Old and New Testaments.

Islam, on the other hand, is founded on one book, written by one man, which, though it contains passing references to Abraham and others who feature in the Old Testament, as well as Jesus of Nazareth, propagates a philosophy totally alien to both Judaism and Christianity.

The unknown God of this book, though long worshipped by some, is not the Ancient of Days or the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

John Wrake

30 May 2013 at 11:20  
Blogger non mouse said...

Yes, Your Grace. These are the Dark Ages.

30 May 2013 at 11:33  
Blogger Philip said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

30 May 2013 at 11:42  
Blogger Elwin Cockett said...

The Daily Mail story is utter rubbish, of course. The reporter deliberately selected a large, popular mosque in Spitalfields and two small churches, some distance away. Had he gone to Christ Church Spitalfields or to nearby St Helen's Bishopsgate it would have been a very different story - but not one that the DM would have been interested in telling.

30 May 2013 at 11:54  
Blogger Flossie said...

George Pitcher is frightened of the overflowing conservative evangelical churches such as St Helen's Bishopsgate and Holy Trinity Brompton, and their various plants which are springing up all over the place. He doesn't like the fact that the bible-based morally conservative churches are succeeding where the liberal ones espoused by him are in terminal decline. He is trying to scaremonger.

As for Elwin Cockett's post above, yes of course this is a bit sensationalist, but the general trajectory is quite accurate.

30 May 2013 at 12:01  
Blogger Philip said...

While Islam could fill the vacuum left by the rejection of our Christian culture and values, it seems that the god which is currently being most successful in seeking to take us over is the one that insists we must have sex with whoever and whenever we want. And which gets the Big State to encourage allegiance to it and to marginalise those who worship YHWH, Jehovah, the named God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who is also the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

But it is bit annoying the Mail seems to highlight churches with empty pews while ignoring the full and growing churches, including those in central London, who are faithful to the God of the Bible by faithfully preaching the Bible as His unchanging word, and the true gospel of Christ

30 May 2013 at 12:02  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

The petrodollar-bloated OIC (Organisation for Islamic Conversion) could buy up the entire City of London and all that it owns, together with all the politicians at Westminster.

Maybe they already have.

30 May 2013 at 12:23  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Although I am a passionate believer in a free press and freedom of speech I feel that almost all of the media, including the papers, are determined to spotlight those churches that are struggling to maintain numbers. They never point to churches that are successful. One of the better things said by Rowan Williams was that the BBC was only interested in portraying Christianity by pointing to , not the mainstream Trinitarian churches and practices, Catholic or Protestant, but the slightly weird, quirky, eccentric or downright out and out heretical. We have no friends in the media which is explains to a considerable degree, I believe, the struggle that all the denominations have in attracting and holding worshippers. We live in a strange age, one in which even the so called public service broadcasters, are allowed to attack or at least cast doubt upon the very foundations of our society. One day the whole edifice of western society will collapse I fear. It will take some time yet, but the moral and spiritual decay is well advanced.

30 May 2013 at 12:25  
Blogger bradypus said...

I would go with the Good Bishop Micael Nazir Ali any time. He is a man who talks an awful lot of sense!

30 May 2013 at 12:58  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Goodness! Well, here in Barset we have a plethora of Christian churches which cause my Lord some vexation I can tell you. Silverbridge we have the Flower Christians, inspired by the text 'Behold, the Lilies of the Field' and the works of the Blessed Alan Titchmarsh. Then there are The Strict and Peculiars at Allington and the Very Peculiars Indeed at Midsummer Floggem. Why, in Barchester itself there are Anchorbutterites, Eastendians, Good Newsweekians, Epilogians and The Community of the Seventh Day Bathnightians. None of them Anglicans, I grant you, but indicative of the vibrancy of modern day Christianity I think - don't you?

30 May 2013 at 13:43  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

That should of course say 'At Silverbridge...' Oh dear oh dear!

30 May 2013 at 14:03  
Blogger Owl said...

Much as I respect Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali, I find I have to disagree with him on this.

Listening to my own children and their peers, there is an evident striving for common sense in a confusing world and a rather strong search for guidance on matters religious and political (which appear inseperable).

I do not see any "power Christians", whatever that may be, but very many young people looking for values that they can hold on to.

The liberal churches do not interest them whatsoever.

Jesus does.

If anything, there seems to be a very strong sense of conservatism amongst the young which will influence the future more than any lost politician of the present ilk.

I am glad to say.

30 May 2013 at 14:24  
Blogger Preacher said...

The problem I believe is that most Churches Do not preach the gospel, basically we have somewhere lost Christianity & replaced it with a comfortable non challenging creature that breast feeds communicants & rocks the cradle of comfort until they sleep like babes.
The alternative being a New Age rave that is attributed (wrongly) to the Holy Spirit, or a powerless philosophy of universal salvation.

None of the above are the Church that Jesus Christ founded & commissioned to carry the gospel to lost humanity.
We need men of the calibre of John
Wesley, who are not afraid to carry their Cross as well as preach about it. A revival, sent by God carried by Holy Spirit filled disciples who are not afraid of men. Whose main purpose is to call the people to repentance & salvation through the Cross of Christ. Men who will warn of God's judgement on those who reject His offer of mercy.
Men who are prepared to suffer hardship & rejection, anger & hatred, yes, even death for their Lord.
Are there any heroes still left? I believe there are. They wait & pray for the Lord to send His Holy Spirit as a flame that will ignite revivals fire once more. Please add your prayers with ours.


30 May 2013 at 14:39  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Well said Preacher.

30 May 2013 at 14:41  
Blogger Tanfield said...

I believe that the 2 churches and the mosque are all situated in the London Borough of Tower Hamlets which is, I believe, to all intents and purposes, a muslim area. So these pictures can be explained by this. Friday prayers for Muslims are compulsory whereas Christian Church attendance is not. Nevertheless I am more inclined to agree with Bishop Nazir-Ali

30 May 2013 at 15:10  
Blogger Nick said...

"Power Christians are taking over the City" sounds like the title of 1950s B-Movie (and about as credible)

30 May 2013 at 15:17  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

sounds like the title of 1950s B-Movie

Heh. "Night of the Living Christians."

They're coming to get you, Barbara. They're coming to get you.

who knows very well that NotLD was made in the 60s and is far better than a B movie.

30 May 2013 at 15:42  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali is right; faith has collapsed because faith comes from hearing and who is there for them to hear from.

The general decline of our moral standards in this country and Government will continue to fall until the church as a whole turns it's face towards God and believes in his commandments and obeys his call to preach to all the Gospel of salvation.

30 May 2013 at 15:49  
Blogger Roy said...

Today's Daily Telegraph has an article in which the Bishop of Salisbury, the Rt Rev Nicholas Holtam is quoted as saying "Christians should rethink their interpretation of Scripture in light of changing attitudes towards homosexuality in society."

Gay marriage opponents like supporters of apartheid, says senior bishop

If I thought that God really needed some good advice from newspaper columnists (whether they were writing for the Guardian, the Telegraph or the Daily Mail), I wouldn't bother going to church. Instead I would inform my thinking by going straight to the horse's mouth and read the Gospel According to Polly Toynbee or Delingpole or whoever was currently the voice of the bien pensant class.

Bishop Holtam also likened opponents of gay marriage to Christians who used the Bible to justify slavery and apartheid. Those Christians would have had to explain away the whole of the Book of Exodus. In the light of society's attitudes "Let my people go" probably really meant "Do not let my people go."

I could re-write the Bible just as easily as Bishop Holtam and could probably do it for him since his views would be perfectly predictable.

No wonder the Church of England has empty pews. How long will it be before the "liberal" churches disband themselves because they have no members left?

30 May 2013 at 16:22  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

A chap would tend to side with Flossie and others after her. The only thing worse than an empty pew is a pew with a religious conservative sat on it, or so goes the modern Protestant enlightenment thought, don’t you think ?

From today’s Pink News…The Bishop of Salisbury has likened opponents of equal marriage to Christians who used the Bible to justify slavery and apartheid. The Rt Rev Nicholas Holtam previously opposed marriage rights for same-sex couples, but is now the only Anglican diocesan bishop in the country to publicly favour the reform. Last year he said he was “no longer convinced” marriage should be between a man and a woman.

++Welby, old chap, now is the time for forgiveness of your rogue cleric. After you’ve sacked him first, that is…

+Holtham, you may also have read this today in the disease spreading concerns part of Pink News. It’s a homosexual orgy, witnessed by ‘Eddy’. One wonders if there were any future ‘volunteers’ prepared to visit schools to {AHEM} educate children about their new gay rights that wonderful night.

1. As a number of PN posters have vehemently denied that unsafe sex is rife in London sex-on-site clubs, I visited one last week.

Between 10 and 11pm I observed 60 to 70 naked men indulging in an orgy.

There was a large bowl offering condoms & lube near the entrance, but it contained no more than about 20 sachets in total, and I saw only 1 person visit it.

In the darker corners of the club, I observed about 95% of the guests screwing without condoms.

I saw men screwing one person, withdrawing, and then immediately going into another person, and then another.

I saw men being screwed, then turning around and entering the person who had screwed them.

There was much use of poppers, and most of the men had a pint of beer close at hand.

I believe that the beer and the poppers causes people to lose their inhibitions and to indulged in the dangerous behaviour.

30 May 2013 at 17:51  
Blogger Peter D said...

Tanfield said ...
"Friday prayers for Muslims are compulsory whereas Christian Church attendance is not"

Well it is really, isn't it? Why would Christians choose not attend Church on the Lord's Day to worship together as a community? For Catholics such attendance is compulsory - but then we are a rather different Church to the protestant ones.

Generally, I don't find this requirement to attend Mass too much of a 'hardship' or an 'imposition'. On those days that I do, and its mainly for selfish reasons, I reflect on the responsibility we all have as Christians to God and to one another as His Body, to thank Him individually and collectively.

"Power Christians" taking over the City - indeed! What stuff and nonsense. And, in the name of Christ, why aren't heretical 'Bishops' in the established church booted out?

30 May 2013 at 17:53  
Blogger Matt A said...

Golly, Inspector! That was quite close to the knuckle! You couldn't make it up...

30 May 2013 at 18:17  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Peter D

but then we are a rather different Church to the protestant ones.

Yes, you certainly are.

And, in the name of Christ, why aren't heretical 'Bishops' in the established church booted out?

Yes, we Americans have been wondering about that for a while. It was after all the bishops who allowed the US RCC to become a haven of homosexual abusive priests. Why, one bishop even fled to Rome one step ahead of the Law.

Oh, wait. You said "established" church. You must have been referring to some other bishops.


30 May 2013 at 18:20  
Blogger Albert said...


It was after all the bishops who allowed the US RCC to become a haven of homosexual abusive priests.

Just a minute. The complacency of the bishops on this is breath-taking(to say the least), but there is one key difference. When they failed to act, they were going against the clear teaching and clear canonical position of the Church. That is to say, in many cases things were mishandled because they failed to uphold Catholic teaching. They were acting outside their authority and contrary to their office. The trouble with the CofE bishop is that he's just expressing his opinion, and ultimately, it's every man for himself in that regard.

30 May 2013 at 18:37  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Well Matt A, one wonders if those awfully nice people, including churchmen, who cannot do enough for our gay folk are fully aware of what they cannot do enough to accept.

30 May 2013 at 18:42  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

The first part of your earlier comment was right on the button.
As to the seccond, too much informantion. What did you say to your priest at confession?

30 May 2013 at 18:56  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


They were acting outside their authority and contrary to their office.

And yet they weren't removed. Imagine that. Neither for heresy (and there was heresy) nor complacency. The corruption indicated by not removing said bishops was of course the not-so-subtle point of Peter's haughty question about bishops in the CoE. Now of course his point is valid. But he was by implication juxtaposing the purity of the RCC with the corruption of the CoE in that post. And that as they say was a bridge too far.

Stones. Glass houses. It will be awhile before the RCC will have standing to criticize another church about disciplining its leadership.


30 May 2013 at 19:03  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Salutations Integrity. The forthcoming SSM second reading in the Lords is soon. One would not have normally soiled this site but for that good reason. Let those who would vote for the damn thing be fully aware of the social consequences of what they are doing. To wit, placing homosexuality on the map and the governments stamp of approval. And of course, how can it possibly be ignored by those who decide on the national curriculum.

We might even see a certain bishop retract his words. Haven’t heard of that happening for a while, what !

30 May 2013 at 19:08  
Blogger Peter D said...

Albert answered it far better than I would have.

Now, care to return to the actual point about heretical bishops and where this leaves sola scriptura in the absence of authorative leadership? Just who defines and preserves orthodoxy in the face of genuine division? That such authority was given to the Church and, in particular, to the Apostles is in scripture, wouldn't you agree?

And Sunday worship? Why aren't protestants obliged to attend church? Wait ... I know ... its not in scripture. The Sabbath is Saturday and Sunday the Lord's Day. Presumably, keeping one or both of these days 'Holy' depends on one's ... preference ... interpretation ... or ... denomination?

30 May 2013 at 19:09  
Blogger Jay Bee said...

May I gently point you in the direction of Ephesians 5:10-12
It is one thing to expose the fruitless deeds of darkness but quite another to revel in the detail, for it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.

30 May 2013 at 19:10  
Blogger Peter D said...


I agree; the responsible Cardinals, Bishops and Priests should have been publically rebuked and removed from office. So should those leaders currently opposed to Church teaching on a range of issues.

Pope Benedict couldn't handle what has been termed the 'homo-mafia' in the Church - and the feminist liberals. Time will tell whether Pope Francis is up to it.

If he isn't up to the task and the Catholic Church goes 'modern', then maybe the tribulation is upon us! However, I doubt it is just yet.

30 May 2013 at 19:16  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Jay Bee, don’t think the Inspector isn’t suffering for his actions. Had to reach for the bottle bloody early on I can tell you.

Bottoms up {AHEM} !

30 May 2013 at 19:19  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "London sex-on-site clubs"

What on earth are those? :O

30 May 2013 at 19:35  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Peter D

Now, care to return to the actual point about heretical bishops and where this leaves sola scriptura in the absence of authorative leadership?

No, I think we should discuss how all those heretical bishops got appointed in the presence of that authoritative leadership. You know. The bishops you referred to when you said:

Pope Benedict couldn't handle what has been termed the 'homo-mafia' in the Church - and the feminist liberals. Time will tell whether Pope Francis is up to it.

Yes, JPII didn't seem to be able to deal with it either. That authoritative leadership you keep telling me about. It doesn't seem to be working too well.


30 May 2013 at 19:43  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Probably an answer to local councils closing public conveniences DanJ0. Don’t get me started on that. Had to go up against the wall the other night, almost hit the blue lamp....

30 May 2013 at 19:52  
Blogger Albert said...


And yet they weren't removed.

Many were removed. But what the John Jay report now shows is that the handling of abuse was rather different from how it has been presented. There were some high profile and shocking cases of bishops frankly ignoring the well-being of children. This is utterly reprehensible and such bishops ought to have been removed (if they haven't been). However, for the most part, bishops did not know about the abuse. Says the John Jay Report:

Though more than 80 percent of cases now known had already occurred by 1985, only 6 percent of those cases had been reported to the dioceses by that time.

That is not the impression you get from the media. When a list of abusing priests spills out, the impression is the bishop hid it. Often bishops did not know about the abuse until much later - not least when it started to appear in the papers, by which time the statute of limitations had passed, priest was often old and ill etc., or the matter was inevitably being dealt with by the appropriate authorities because it had become public.

I think we should discuss how all those heretical bishops got appointed in the presence of that authoritative leadership.

In terms of heretical beliefs about sexuality in the Church, I think you are dealing with a hidden and dishonest culture. It is pretty hard to crack that, when the very people you would be relying on to crack it may very well be part of that culture. That culture dates back to the '60s and the rejection of Humanae Vitae.

Then there's the confusion about what was really going on. John Jay said homosexuality was not a factor in the abuse, but I see the National Review Board chair is in the news disagreeing. So was the problem homosexuality or not? If it was, it is hard to deal with it when high-level reports say it wasn't (or is that part of a new cover-up? - it's complicated).

In the end, the authority of the Catholic Church is submitted to voluntarily. If someone misbelieves but keeps it quiet, there is not much any authority can do until the matter comes to light, and then, others of s similar mindset will do all they can to obscure the truth etc.

The solution to this is clearly that all Catholics should properly submit to the teaching authority of the Church, in addition to following some pretty basic laws and moral ideas.

30 May 2013 at 20:05  
Blogger Albert said...

Just to clarify, the "many were removed" refers to bishops who failed to handle abuse properly. My point being that it is hard to remove a bishop for failing to act on a report of abuse that he did not know about.

30 May 2013 at 20:21  
Blogger Peter D said...


There was a similar moral crisis in the 11th century .... I guess Satan is determined to bring down the Catholic Church.

The true Church will survive notwithstanding the corruption of its leaders at any given moment in history.

30 May 2013 at 20:23  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

"London sex-on-site clubs"

What on earth are those?

The natural consequence of male sexuality once removed from the constraining influence of female sexuality. For certain there would be heterosexual equivalents with men lined up down the street and around the block - if only there were women willing to participate. It's that 'created order' thing again.


30 May 2013 at 20:30  
Blogger alan baker said...

This article highlights a good point. What God do we follow? What does it mean to be a Christian? I've been taking my kids to Sunday school at the local community church in Bristol. Its full of young families and there are few available seats when we attend. Listening to the messages, from which I hope to gain some guidance, I wonder if hell, or a version of, exists anymore. Any serious guidance on important current issues like homosexual marriage is not discussed anywhere. How does one discern the truth when there are so many variants? Fortunately your grace and Brother Ivo help to provide lucidity on important and relevant religio political issues for which I am very greatful.

30 May 2013 at 20:32  
Blogger Nick said...

Hi Alan

"How does one discern the truth when there are so many variants?"

As a nation we have always been afraid of discussing awkward issues like homosexuality, especially in the Church. Thankfully, the scriptures are unequivocal on the matter, and unless the gaystapo order those passages to be removed, they will always be there for us to read and understand. Best to hang on to your Bibles in case te "Revised Tatchell" version becomes the only one allowed!

30 May 2013 at 20:56  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

The amount of Sex On Premises Venues has exploded since the legalisation of homosexuality. Once confined to a mattress in a secret back-room of a bath house, male sex orgy venues are now part of a normal nite out for homosexuals. If this appetite for danger and thrill sex is not stopped and kept in check they'll end up infecting the rest of the population with some nasty diseases.

30 May 2013 at 21:18  
Blogger Nick said...


hopefully it will not be the heterosexuals who get infected. As to the homosexuals, they know the risk and it is their responsibility if they infect / get infected. They presumably expect the scientists to find a cure for AIDs before the disease finishes them off.

Knowingly infecting someone is surely murder. But will the judges and juries see it that way? Not in the present moral climate.

30 May 2013 at 21:25  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Meanwhile, in France:

● There are more practising Muslims than practising Catholics
● The number of mosques needs to double to 4,000 to meet growing demand
● 20 new RC churches built in the last 10 years and 60 have closed

30 May 2013 at 21:26  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Nick:”Knowingly infecting someone is surely murder” Yes it should be, the concern is that judges and juries won't be allowed to see it that way.

I wish Christians here were more powerful and less woolly, more Bishop Chartres and less Rev Pitcher please. And I think the Archbishop Welby is in a good position to tackle corporate greed and to temper the expectations of those who have failed for large bonuses and pay-offs.

30 May 2013 at 22:31  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Also in France, an attack on a priest in Avignon prompted his archbishop to talk of Muslims taking control of the district: ‘Ce quartier est progressivement pris en main par des gens de religion musulmane’.

30 May 2013 at 23:20  
Blogger peggy38 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

31 May 2013 at 05:12  
Blogger peggy38 said...


Yours are wonderful and inspiring words. I pray all the time for revival and for the turning of the tide.

Let us all pray and prepare for revival!

It begins with us. Christ said "Ask and you shall receive."

31 May 2013 at 05:14  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "Once confined to a mattress in a secret back-room of a bath house, male sex orgy venues are now part of a normal nite out for homosexuals."

You don't really believe that, do you? I'd never even heard of the term (though I'd heard of gay saunas) so I googled and found the Wiki entry for the SOPC term you switched to there. You did the same, I bet. I expect there are places like that in London and Manchester but there are swingers clubs too and I don't leap to the assumption that they're "part of a normal night out for heterosexuals". That's despite my provincial newspaper reporting the local burger van owner organising swinger parties and a local brothel being closed down after the local vicar ran a campaign about it because there were a stream of truckers calling there on route.

31 May 2013 at 05:45  
Blogger DanJ0 said...


31 May 2013 at 05:46  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Nick:"Thankfully, the scriptures are unequivocal on the matter, and unless the gaystapo order those passages to be removed, they will always be there for us to read and understand."

Actually, that was one of the suggestions on one of the Islam threads below: to rewrite religious books to expunge them of violent passages which may incite terrorism.

31 May 2013 at 05:51  
Blogger Manfarang said...

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

31 May 2013 at 06:36  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Let us not forget the second beast of 'Revelation': that looks like a lamb, but speaks like a dragon, and that directs worship towards the first one (political power).

From this we may infer that false teaching (including about 'Revelation') will be ongoing and influential within the Church: until the return of the true lamb brings the reign of the false one to an end.

31 May 2013 at 06:57  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Johnny R (21;26)

The Abbey church where I worship when in France is full, including kids. But it's an area remote from PC and Muslim strongholds. And it's now; and you're talking about the future.

As HG says, prepare for tribulation.

31 May 2013 at 08:29  
Blogger david kavanagh said...


Yes and the four horses of the apoclaypse. What a depressing job that would be!

31 May 2013 at 11:19  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Also the title 'power christians'. Kinda reminds me of the show 'power rangers'... but I don't think they worried about Mammoths.

31 May 2013 at 11:26  
Blogger The Explorer said...


Depressing? Dream job for a sadist. It's the poor sode on the receiving end who have the problem.

Re the title, not my problem. I didn't invent it. My point is that nonsense-and worse - within the Church is an ongoing phenomenon which will continue for the duration of the present world order.

31 May 2013 at 13:46  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Explorer, did you notice i said horses, not horsemen? I think today the rspca might want to regulate the hours those horses work. And i guess the riders would have to opt out of the eu work directive. Mind you the whole enterprise might fall foul of equality legislation, among death, plague, war and famine, are any of them women, an ethnic minority, disabled, gay or non christian? Perhaps the final battle will be one of a thousand years of form filling?:)

31 May 2013 at 14:13  
Blogger IanCad said...

Truly excellent comment Preacher @ 14:39.

Let us hearten to assurance that there will always be a remnant.

31 May 2013 at 15:11  
Blogger The Explorer said...


I didn't notice. I tend to skim read - too much I want to get through - and people are quite right to pick me up on it.

Officialdom can pass as many resolutions as it likes, but the real world ignores them. Conquest, civil war, famine, death: they just keep rollin' along.

A real-life example. Britain decided to fund the rebuilding of a stretch of road in western Congo. Budgets, committees, pie charts: you know the kind of thing.

When someone actually took a look -years into the project - not a metre of road had been built. But all the millions had disappeared. And there was still famine from poor transport facilities.

Incidentally, in that last sentence of yours, aren't you mixing up Armageddon with the Millenium?


PS. As I told your sister, I do have a sense of humour.

31 May 2013 at 15:12  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

For a homosexual you lead a sheltered life Danj0 :)
There are some in Cardiff and Swansea and no doubt other cities too not just Manchester & London. Whereas swingers clubs are few and far between, it's seen as all a bit seedy and laughable really. I think they are more specialist too maybe. I suppose truckers use the free sex offered at dogging sites according to Ch 4's documentary on the subject.

31 May 2013 at 15:17  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Explorer, well you i dont actually know as revelation is one of those books open to any cult, wacky religion and wotnot to say the end is coming. Was it last year some american guy was saying christians or the select were going to be raptured ? As for hannah, she is teaching my kids how to scale distances, as we arrange the planets of the solar system in the garden(having made them a couple of hours ago). And to think some here see gays as wicked or whatever... Even if the water feature is minus some rocks...

31 May 2013 at 15:28  
Blogger The Explorer said...


I'm not clear. Were are you saying I'm saying the end is coming? Where, exactly, did I say that? For Christians, only God knows that.

I thought I was saying false teaching will be ongoing for the lifespan of the Church, and we should therefore not be surprised by it.

I mentioned the second beast. You brought up the rest.

I did mention 'Revelation' in an earlier thread, but in a similar vein: that we should not be surprised by persecution. I have never dealt in other than generalities, because that seems to me the book's method.

Tolkien attracts freaks as well; so does 'The Name of the Rose'. But that's not a good reason for not reading them.

31 May 2013 at 17:02  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

31 May 2013 at 17:29  
Blogger Peter D said...


If I may, you did say @ 08:29:
"As HG says, prepare for tribulation" and this term is generally associated with the "end times".

31 May 2013 at 17:31  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

David, i wouldn't go into the depths of revelation. Alas some treat it as history and therefore get their head full of ideas. I'd just let god deal with the end of the world. More scotch?

31 May 2013 at 17:40  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "For a homosexual you lead a sheltered life Danj0 :)"

You seem to have an overactive imagination. Why on earth would gay men want to do that? Is that what you dream of doing too, only you don't have the opportunity? To me, it sounds horrible, seedy, and dangerous. As I asked earlier, surely you don't think that is a normal night out for a homosexual? I don't know any gay men who do that sort of thing. What you're doing is stereotyping wildly in the same manner as someone thinking all black men are violent thieves because some of them hit the news for doing that.

31 May 2013 at 17:56  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

I guess every thread gets back to gays... Like roads leading to rome for some here.

31 May 2013 at 18:07  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Explorer, ah, the first bit was an attempt to answer your question about confusing apocalypse with millenium what not. The answer was i dont know, as its not my tradition. I do know some get very specific about revelation and start coming to cult like conclusions. So no it wasnt directed at you. The rest was about what had been going on in the kav household...

31 May 2013 at 18:09  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Paul i agree; revelation end of world, too much for a friday afternoon. More scotch? Havent had any yet!

31 May 2013 at 18:14  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

I don't think that's a normal night out for a homosexual Danj0, but it is for a lot of homosexuals otherwise the venues wouldn't exist. It's not something I'd advocate or want to take part in personally, all rather sordid, degrading and harmful really.

31 May 2013 at 19:41  
Blogger Peter D said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

31 May 2013 at 21:06  
Blogger Peter D said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

31 May 2013 at 21:08  
Blogger Peter D said...

Trust me Marie, there are some very unsavoury, dangerous and disgusting heterosexual pursuits too. I speak here from professional and not from personal experience.

Why do you think there's a hugh demand in the West for young women sex trafficked by organised crime from East Europe, Asia and Latin America? And, speaking from professional insight here too, there's been a steady and significant growth in demand for unprotected sex and anal sex from those men paying to abuse these women. I'm led to understand another area becoming more popular is the administration of perverted acts on these men too.

Homosexuals are not alone in having in their midst those incapable of self restraint and control.

31 May 2013 at 23:21  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

I realise this, but as we were talking about the homosexuals here.....
Sex trafficking is inexcusable and wicked. It's scary how low we are progressing down the slippery slope. Whilst I don't think we should go back to the strict Puritan age of the 40s, we need to get a grip. Where has the self respect gone? It's men that drive this decline and the debauchery I think.

Everything goes in cycles, given a few more decades of this decline and we'll all be punished by God/nature somehow.

1 June 2013 at 01:55  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "I don't think that's a normal night out for a homosexual Danj0, but it is for a lot of homosexuals otherwise the venues wouldn't exist."

What percentage is "a lot", do you think?

1 June 2013 at 08:49  
Blogger Peter D said...

Somewhere between 1% and 100%.

1 June 2013 at 10:44  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Peter D

I draw a distinction between 'tribulation' (ongoing), and 'The Tribulation': the End Time. As to that, if Christ himself didn't know (Mark), I don't presume to do so: and no Christian ought to claim the insight.

1 June 2013 at 12:17  
Blogger The Explorer said...

David/Paul/Peter D

Thanks for that. The Rapture stuff, by the way, relates to 'Thessalonians'.

I agree people come up with some creepy stuff about 'Revelation'. But after seeing the Bela Lagosi 'Dracula' film, some German guy started slashing women and drinking their blood through straws. The film's fault? The Yorkshire Ripper was apparently inspired by a Victorian waxworks display of the stages ofpregnancy, but his brother was completely unaffected.

Paul: if God didn't intend is to bother about'Revelation', why were we given it?

My own approach to it is Idealist, not Futurist: as is probably apparent from my comments.

But my comment was made in passing, and I agree with you that this discussion is best closed down. Let's all agree to end it?

Peter D.
In a rush, so previous comment was a compressed reference to the whole debate in Mark: ongoing/end/parousia all in one sentence.

1 June 2013 at 12:33  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Peter D

One last quick thought.

When I said 'tribulation'in relation to France (and meaning trouble, rather than the end) I was thinking specifically of the 2009 Llan Halimi murder trial.

Quite horrendous - check it out if you don't know of it - and worrying if any sort of harbinger of the French future.

1 June 2013 at 12:46  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Final, final thought:

David: I think your sister's great!

Peter D:

I have a bad habit of applying the wrong title to a concept. You werr absolutely right to pick me up on it.

Regards to both of you.

1 June 2013 at 14:05  
Blogger Peter D said...

It isn't too difficult to get confused about the "troubles" brought on by oppression and persecution - past, present and to come!

Amongst Dispensationalists we have:
Prewrath Tribulationists;
Seventh Trumpet Tribulationists; Midtribulationists; and

And that's not even mentioning Preterist and Historicist theories!

1 June 2013 at 18:04  
Blogger The Explorer said...


When the Eastern Orthodox tradition wanted to exclude 'Revelation' from the Canon, one feels they might have had a point! Myself, though, I love it!

Thought I knew most of the possible interpretations, but the Seventh Trumpet lot are new to me. Will have to check them out.

I have found becoming a contributor to this Blog a great experience: very horizon expanding.

You have contributed to that. Thank you.

1 June 2013 at 20:59  
Blogger Peter D said...

Yep Explorer, some of the Christian 'theories' around are better than a good science fiction novel!

I enjoy your contributions too.

1 June 2013 at 22:01  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

In excess of 50% I'd say Danj0. You see they don't have to go through the online chat and dating palaver they just gather at the club in their underpants if that's the theme, go to the cruise area and before you can say Jack Robinson, Bob's your lover.

2 June 2013 at 01:12  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie, you're weird. You're like the Daily Mail incarnated as a human being.

2 June 2013 at 05:44  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Explorer,

That's very kind of you.

2 June 2013 at 12:02  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Marie,

I really think you need to spend some time with gay people, rather than making up assumptions like you do.

2 June 2013 at 12:03  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Noooooooooo I'm sick to death of queer people Hannah.

Ha ha, well that's nice to know.

2 June 2013 at 15:25  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Marie,

If that's the case why do all this burdensome 'research' and tv documentaries about gay orgies?

Anyways, it is you who are missing out from not wanting to have anything to do with 'the queers'...

2 June 2013 at 15:52  

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