Monday, May 06, 2013

Church of Scotland report denies Jesus was the promised Messiah

Christians should not believe those parts of Scripture where God promised that a virgin would conceive: Isaiah 7:14 didn't really refer to a promised messiah: it was just about a general plan of salvation. And he wasn't born in the long-promised Bethlehem either - that's just a metaphor for anywhere, like Slough. And he didn't have to be a 'he' either - that's just a metaphor for all humankind. And his name didn't have to be Jesus (Mt 2:21) - meaning 'The Lord saves', because it could have been Brian or Steve: there's no real promise that the Lord will save us from our sins (Zech 3:9). He is not 'God with us' (Mt 1:23), and he didn't need to suffer (Is 53:7) because there's no real reward for obeying the word of God (Lk 11:27). Jesus isn't the visible image of the invisible God through whom all things were created (Col 1:15f) - that's just silly. He didn't reconcile us to himself through the cross (v20), and he's not the glory of the nations (Ps 96:3; 39:21). And when God promises that nothing shall separate us from the love of Christ (Rom 8:35), he didn't really mean 'nothing' - he meant God's love is completely dependent on the which side of the bed he gets out of in a morning. 

Oh, hang on. His Grace has got it wrong.


It's only the Jews who shouldn't take God's promises literally. 

That's alright, then.

And neither should Christians when they relate to Jews and Israel. Ah, now it's becoming clearer.

If God makes a promise to Jews, it's a metaphor. If He makes a promise to Christians, it's literal except where it refers to the Jews and Israel.

Yes, that's right. According to a report by the Church of Scotland, 'Israel' and the 'Promised Land' is all just one big mushy metaphor for... well, something like the fuzziness of promises that aren't promises. God's promises are just pictures, without precise meaning, and certainly could never apply to matters of geography. The 'Promised Land' in Scripture is not a literal land - it's more 'a metaphor of how things ought to be among the people of God. This "promised land" can be found, or built, anywhere'.

Except, of course, in Israel.

This astonishing Church of Scotland report is entitled The Inheritance of Abraham? The 'Promised Land', and the scare quotes say it all. It is supposed to be a 'discussion document' for debate, but its tone is consistent with the anti-Israel pro-Palestine narrative we have come to expect from some quarters. This once fervently Zionist Church of Scotland - which enthusiastically supported the right of Jews to return to their ancient homeland - now says Israel does not belong to the Jewish people. If it is adopted later this month by the 700 Church members who constitute the General Assembly, it may become the official position of the Church. Unsurprisingly, Jewish leaders are somewhat irked by this.

Quoted in the Jewish Chronicle, Ephraim Borowski, Scottish Council of Jewish Communities director, said: "The document is an outrage to everything that interfaith dialogue stands for. It is biased, weak on sources, and contradictory, and closes the door on meaningful dialogue. On behalf of the Jewish community of Scotland, we call upon the Church to withdraw it from the forthcoming general assembly. If the Church cannot build bridges, can it at least refrain from burning them?"

In the same newspaper, the Board of Deputies vice-president Jonathan Arkush said: “I am at a loss for words that the Church of Scotland should have delivered such a slap in the face to the Jewish community. The document is deeply troubling on many levels. It appears to have been produced with no consultation with the Scottish or national Jewish community. It is littered with misrepresentations of Jewish history, values and beliefs as well as basic factual errors.

“It is an ignorant and tendentious document masquerading as a theological statement. The Church has done a deep disservice to itself by producing a document without any regard to the trust, respect and dialogue on which interfaith relations should be based.”

Please read the report for yourselves (hyperlink above), but its reasoning essentially turns on: 'Would the Jewish people today have a fairer claim to the land if they dealt justly with the Palestinians?' It adds that from some Christian perspectives 'the desire of many in the state of Israel to acquire the land of Palestine for the Jewish people is wrong'.

And the report urges the Church to consider backing 'economic and political measures involving boycotts, disinvestment and sanctions against the state of Israel focused on illegal settlements'.

The chief executive of the Council of Christians and Jews the Reverend David Gifford said the report was ill-considered, regressive and insensitive to Jewish anxieties and the range of Israeli public opinion: “The at times unfortunate words and phrases reflect sadly on the authors and smacks of Christian superiority over Judaism,” he said. “While few would disagree that serious issues need to be addressed by the state of Israel, instead of offering fresh opportunities and an openness to engage with the Jewish community in a joint response to the worrying trends in the Israel/Palestine conflict, this report runs the risk of further alienating our own Jewish community and increasing its fear and anxiety.”

He's not wrong. The assertion that God's promises to Christians are somehow of a different theological order to those He made to Jews is verging on the anti-Semitic. If the Church of Scotland wants some facts, here are a few:

Israel is central to Jewish religious and national identity. It is the one piece of land historically promised to the Jewish people as recorded in Genesis. It is the only land where the Jewish nation has ever experienced self rule. In contrast, there has never been an autonomous Palestinian state in the area. It was ruled by a succession of empires until the Ottoman Empire fell in 1917 and the League of Nations granted the British a Mandate in 1920.

Archaeology confirms the Bible record of a land promised to the Jews, who spoke and wrote Hebrew, and worshiped Israel’s God in what is now Israel at least 1,000 years before Jesus was born. Jews are the only people who have ever had an autonomous state on this tiny piece of land. They governed themselves as a national entity,producing kings, visionary prophets and writers from whose pens flowed some of the most treasured writings in the history of the world. Archaeological support for these claims includes:
✡ an ancient Hebrew alphabet, from 10th century BC discovered at Tel Zayit in 2005;
✡ Israel is named in ancient Hebrew on the 9th Century BC ‘Moabite Stone’;
✡ An inscription at Tel Dan dating from the time of King Ahab names the ‘House of David’ and ‘Israel’.

Jews have inhabited the Holy Land continuously for 3000 years. Despite attempts by successive occupying powers to expel them, communities of Jews have lived in the Holy Land continuously since the time of Abraham until the present in, for example, Safed, Tiberias and Hebron. Jews returned to the Holy Land throughout the Diaspora period, notably from Spain and other Mediterranean countries in the late 13th and 14th Century.

In Jerusalem Jews have been the largest ethnic group since the 1840s. During the Mandate many Jewish communities in Arab towns such as Nazareth and Gaza were forced out by Arab neighbours and their members joined kibbutzim or moved to predominantly Jewish towns. Since the Babylonian exile, the Jewish diaspora has spread as far as South America, China and Australia. But Jewish ethnic identity, recognised by the countries in which they lived as minority communities, was based on Jewish affinity with the land of Israel and the Jews living there.

At the 1920 San Remo conference, the League of Nations granted Britain a Mandate over Palestine. It committed Britain to the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine west of the Jordan River. Recognition of ancient Jewish links with the land was foundational to the Mandate. A Palestinian state was to be established east of the Jordan River (present day Jordan). Jews could not settle or buy land there.

The assertion that the Jewish homeland was stolen from Palestinians is false. In the early 19th century more than 10,000 Jews lived throughout what is today Israel. In 1880 Jews made up about 6 per cent of Palestine’s population. The land was then a run-down colonial outpost of the Ottoman Empire. Jews purchased much land from Arab owners legally during the late 19th and early 20th century and by dint of huge effort, turned it from rocky hillsides and malarial swamps into productive and profitable land.

By World War One, the Jewish population of Palestine was around 85,000 out of 700,000 (roughly 12 per cent). It rapidly became the most dynamic economic centre in the Middle East attracting people from all over the region eager for a share in the growing prosperity of Palestine. In contrast, no independent Palestinian entity or identity has existed until the 20th Century.

On 29 November 1947, the United Nations voted to create an Arab and a Jewish State alongside each other in what is now Israel and the West Bank. It was accepted that Israel would have a sizeable Arab minority. The Jewish State was allotted 56 per cent of Mandate Palestine, since the UN correctly predicted heavy Jewish immigration from Europe after the creation of the Jewish State. Perhaps they also guessed that large numbers of Jewish refugees from Arab nations would also need a home.

The Jewish Agency, led by David Ben Gurion, accepted the plan. Arab leaders rejected it, and Arab attacks on Jewish communities began at once. Britain announced that her troops would be withdrawn from Palestine on 15 May 1948. Aware that Arab countries had vowed to destroy any Jewish state, David Ben Gurion declared the independence of the State of Israel on 14 May 1948, with borders as stipulated in the UN Partition Plan.

Significantly, the Declaration of Independence stated: 'We appeal ... to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions..' Within days of the British withdrawal, 35,000 Iraqi, Lebanese, Syrian and Egyptian troops (led by British officers) invaded Israel. Despite overwhelming odds, and the loss of 1 per cent of the population of Israel, Israeli forces decisively defeated the Arab armies. Israel took territory beyond the UN allocated borders because their territory could not be defended against further Arab attacks. 

Some 6-800,000 Palestinian Arabs were displaced as a result of the Arab war on Israel in 1948. Some were compelled to leave their homes by IDF forces. But many left voluntarily before the 1948 war because local and national leaders advised or compelled them to do so. Palestinians who heeded this advice could not return to their homes after the Arabs lost the war. Unsurprisingly, given repeated Arab threats to annihilate Israel, Israeli leaders feared an Arab ‘fifth column’. However, most Arabs who had remained in Israel became Israeli citizens. Jews were also expelled from their homes by Arab forces, for example from Gush Etzion and K’far Darom in Gaza, all built on land purchased legally. And of course Jews were expelled from the Old City of Jerusalem. In addition, 800,000 Jews were forced to abandon homes and businesses in Arab countries. They arrived in Israel with nothing.

These are the forgotten refugees of 1948. Both sides committed atrocities. Women and children were murdered by Jewish fighters of the Stern gang and Irgun in the peaceful Arab village of Deir Yassin. Arab fighters took revenge by murdering Jewish women and children in K’far Etzion and members of a convoy taking medical supplies to Jerusalem’s Hadassah hospital.

Modern Israel combines the best ideals of the west – democracy, openness to debate and criticism as well as new ideas in technology and the arts. Such ideals are much needed in the region. Given the ferocity of comment in the Israeli press and the intensity of debate and moral self-criticism which so characterises discussion in Israel – so rare in public life today – the attacks on Israel are profoundly depressing and disturbing.

God promised Abraham that his descendents would have a land, and would be a blessing to all the nations of the earth. Israel is a fulfilment of that promise. We thank the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for the restoration of the Jewish people to their land, because it was a promise that He would so. And if that was not a promise, then Jesus is not the long-promised Messiah, and our promised salvation is nullified in a myriad of meaningless metaphors.


Blogger Albert said...

Dr C,

The assertion that God's promises to Christians are somehow of a different theological order to those He made to Jews is verging on the anti-Semitic.

Really? I thought the whole point about the Old Testament is that it is provisional from a Christian point of view. When it speaks for example of David's throne, it is taken by Christians as referring to Christ.

6 May 2013 at 09:00  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Christ is a descendent of King David: the lineage is neither nullified nor remotely challenged. God's promises of salvation were fulfilled in Christ; not negated.

6 May 2013 at 09:03  
Blogger David B said...

"Archaeology confirms the Bible record of a land promised to the Jews, who spoke and wrote Hebrew, and worshiped Israel’s God in what is now Israel at least 1,000 years before Jesus was born"

Where is the Archaeological evidence for Moses, for the putative promise, and the putative god who did the promising?

To me it looks conspicuous by its absence.

Surely, too, any paternal line from David is contradicted elsewhere in the New Testament.

David (B not R)

6 May 2013 at 09:10  
Blogger Albert said...

Exactly. So that raises a range of exegetical difficulties when dealing with OT promises. I don't expect the task of exegesis is helped by calling people anti-Semites when the task is already difficult enough.

6 May 2013 at 09:11  
Blogger Albert said...

My last post was directed to Dr C, not David.

6 May 2013 at 09:12  
Blogger john in cheshire said...

YG, well said. It's unfortunate that these truism have forever to be repeated, but necessary because of the forces of darkness levelled against Israel.

6 May 2013 at 09:13  
Blogger Seashell said...

It's a very strange God don't you think that would promise everything to a select few. Bit like Hitlers supreme aryan race. The chosen.

6 May 2013 at 09:30  
Blogger Graham Morgan said...

What does his Grace think about Christian Zionism, which in my very humble opinion, is unbiblical and has led to persecution on Palestinian Christians?

6 May 2013 at 09:41  
Blogger graham wood said...

According to the OT book of Leviticus the "land" is God's land, 'for the land is mine. . . . Lev.25:23.
God chose to give the land to Abraham's descendants as a gift, not as something that they should possess by right.
It was intended to be the scene of God's gradual revelation of himself, which would lead to the coming of Jesus Christ, and so to blessing for all the peoples of the world.

If Israel forsook the covenant then God affirmed repeatedly that most surely they would be cast out of the land.
In AD 70 this was effected finally and completely via the armies of Imperial Rome for collectively they rejected their Messiah.
Modern Jews therefore have no "right" to the geographical area known as Israel today.

6 May 2013 at 09:49  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Your Grace you are absolutely right and the Church of Scotland is absolutely wrong

When you carry the Bible, Satan gets a headache..... When you open it, he collapses..... When he sees you reading it, he faints..... When he sees that you are living what you read, he flees...... And when you are about to preach this message.... He will try and discourage you..

6 May 2013 at 10:44  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Seashell :

Surface area of the Earth 510,072,000 KM squared.

Surface area of Israel: 20,772 KM squared.

Hardly a deity that gives 'everything' to a select few...

The comparison with Jews and Nazis is quite strange and downright disgusting; there is a difference between a 'master race' and a chosen people.

I cannot see Jewish people putting non-Jews into gas chambers in a desire to wipe groups of people from the face of this earth or planning to conquer the globe. But that's the joy of the internet. It brings out all the cranks and loons.

6 May 2013 at 10:50  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

On the subject of chosen people etc -
Isn't that what Christianity is all about - the 'select few' who believe in Jesus as a deity go to heaven and the non-believers to hell? There are about 2 billion Christians out of a world wide population of 7 billion. The other 70% of the world population goes to hell I guess.

If that isn't Christians seeing themselves as chosen in some way then I don't know what is, but I would suggest this is in a different way to the Jewish religion called, for Christians have replacement theology (along with the nice stuff about Jews being deity killers etc) which justified the abuses of Christians at the hands of Jews over the past 2,000 years.

We see that already in this thread with Christians such as Graham Wood interpreting Jewish scriptures for us(the Christian interpretation being the 'correct' one, naturally).

6 May 2013 at 10:52  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Hannah: "re are about 2 billion Christians out of a world wide population of 7 billion. The other 70% of the world population goes to hell I guess."

A large number of those will probably be cultural, too. That is, self-identifying but without a belief which changes lives.

6 May 2013 at 11:06  
Blogger Naomi King said...

With events in Syria we are on the eve of the Isaiah 17, Psalm 83 war.

These are the people groups mentioned in Psalm 83 who will invade Israel following on from the destruction of Damascus.

It is reasonable to conclude that the armies of Isaiah 17:12 are the same nations who sign a treaty against the Lord in Psalm 83:5-8. Below is a list of those nations and their modern geographical equivalents:

Edomites = Jordan / Parts of the West Bank
Ishmaelites = The Arab people
Moabites = Jordan / Parts of the West Bank
Hagrites = Jordan / The Arab people
Gebalites = Lebanon
Ammonites = Jordan
Amalekites = Southern Israel / Gaza
Philistia = Gaza
Tyre = Lebanon
Assyria = Syria / Parts of Turkey and Iraq
The Descendants of Lot = Jordan

By studying the geographical history of these ancient people and places, we can uncover which nations they currently compose. According to Psalm 83, in the aftermath of the destruction of northern Israel and Damascus, Israel will be invaded by armies from Jordan, the West Bank, Lebanon, Syria, and Gaza. All of these locations are heavily populated by the enemies of Israel today.

6 May 2013 at 11:22  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Jews have inhabited the Holy Land continuously for 3000 years

Compared to the British, who have inhabited their blessed plot since the last Ice Age ended, the Jews are mere johnny-come-latelies. But, whereas the British must yield up their homeland to the Third World or be demonized as racist, the Jews—on the back of Holy Scripture (or fairy story, depending on your point of view)—have a divine claim to their homeland. Suggest otherwise and, hey presto, you’re anti-Semitic as well as racist.

6 May 2013 at 12:03  
Blogger James Hamilton said...

Is there a middle ground between being a Zionist and being an anti Semite? Perhaps acknowledging that both Jews and Palestinians have been, and continue to be victims. We might perhaps draw attention to the Christian Palestinians and conclude that this isn't some kind of football match where you have to choose which side you are on.

6 May 2013 at 12:10  
Blogger bluedog said...

Your Grace, the Church of Scotland is guilty of the narcissism of slight differences.

Your communicant sees this report in the context of Scottish nationalism, which is all about making political capital out of slight diffrences between various demographics within the UK. That the Church of Scotland is taking such a politically charged position is all part of nationalist Scots saying, 'Look how different we are'. They're probably falling over themselves to be first to report a riposte from the stuffy Sassenachs in the CofE.

It's kids stuff.

Where's Corrigan when you need him to reinforce the point.

6 May 2013 at 12:12  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Johnny,

Of course as a people the English have been around since the year dot and naturally they have a divine claim to this Island, unlike the fairy tale religion that is Judaism. Jesus was English- not a Jew of Johnny foreign land - don't you know!

Never mind that the word England is derived from a tribe of Germans who settled here or that Britain comes from the Roman Latin of Britannia.

Let's not mention the Vikings, Normans, Irish Roman Catholics, French and Dutch Protestants, Jews who have settled here. over the past 300 years....

6 May 2013 at 12:16  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

I was thinking about the Christians in Israel. If people think they are mistreated by that state then perhaps :

1. We should let them come over to the UK to escape such a foul regime.

2. Get the other bastions of freedom and democracy in the middle east to grand them political asylum from the terrors of the Jewish state.

I am betting that the 'Palastinian' Christians are desperately trying to get into Iran ,Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and other countries noted for their civilized approach to religious freedom...

6 May 2013 at 12:19  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

The church of Scotland gets into bed with Islam !

6 May 2013 at 12:29  
Blogger Tony B said...

If everyone demanded a right to return to their ancestral homeland as described in ancient history books, the world would soon descend into utter chaos.

6 May 2013 at 12:30  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Good heavens, Your Grace, what a magnificent tour de force of a post; you put my feeble attempts at apologetics to shame. Oatmeal and fruit juices for breakfast? Know that I have copied your piece into my note files to look at on those days when the spirit flags or when the mind gropes feebly for coherent arguments. Blessings, Your Grace.

6 May 2013 at 12:48  
Blogger Emlyn Uwch Cych said...

Oy vey! Knox and Calvin must be spinning in their graves.

I've heard a few ripe relativist arguments in my time, but this one really takes the shortbread.

6 May 2013 at 12:53  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

If everyone demanded a right to return to their ancestral homeland as described in ancient history books, the world would soon descend into utter chaos. (Tony B)

What utter silliness. Everyone doesn't demand a return to his homeland for the simple reason that everyone doesn't care beyond the next paycheck and the upcoming date at the new club. Nor does everyone pour over ancient history books and pine for ancient homelands. You are of course entitled to interpret the world as you see fit, but to us, Tony, the Torah is not just an ancient book, but a living guide and a valid contract, a Covenant. Jews didn't just demand their homeland, they laid their lives for it and still do. Who knows what if everyone suddenly decided to demand their ancient homeland, we'll deal with this unlikely possibility if it happens.

6 May 2013 at 13:01  
Blogger James Hamilton said...

I think they are mostly trying to get into the West. The point is they are trying to get out, out of land they have lived on for centuries because life there has become intolerable.

6 May 2013 at 13:31  
Blogger non mouse said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

6 May 2013 at 13:40  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Hannah Kavanagh (12:16)—Thank you for putting so many words in my mouth. It is odd that Jews who demand their own homeland as a God-given right are so eager to belittle the desire of the British to live peaceably in the land built by their ancestors.

6 May 2013 at 13:48  
Blogger non mouse said...

Outstanding, Your Grace!

May I observe that your alliteration informs some pretty points: I love that "myriad of meaningless metaphors"! I think they teach the children "myriad" to help them develop vocab. It gives them word-power....

Beyond that: Mr. Barzel is right -- "everyone doesn't demand a return to his homeland." And now we see how well rootlessness works for the Global Government. It means that migrants tend not to care about their origins, and since we flooded out indigenes have no right to our own lands: well, why should the Jews be different!

Even in secular/physical terms, then, "Death by Destruction" must ensue - be that destruction of nations, cultures, or civilisation. But... how will those idealising secular powers realise that death involves the migration of souls from bodies? Oh my. Where is Geffrey's Eagle when you want him?

6 May 2013 at 13:51  
Blogger Tony B said...

Avi. Obviously I don't expect it to happen. I'll give you credit enough to assume you miss the point on purpose.

6 May 2013 at 13:58  
Blogger IanCad said...

Stop panicking Naomi @ 11:22.

The Israelis and Islamists understand each other perfectly well. They both know exactly how things stack up militarily.

It is well understood that one Jewish soldier is the equal of one thousand Sons of Ishmael.
Witness the recent, most amicable, prisoner exchange negotiations.

As, fitting for their expansive and generous nature, the Arabs averred that one of their boys was worth two thousand Sons of Isaac.

The Israelis, in their humble and self-effacing way, basically stated that, "No, No, No. Were not that much superior, one Good Jewish Boy is only equal to seven hundred of yours."

After several weeks good natured banter it was finally settled that a ratio of one thousand to one was a suitable rate of exchange. Thus confirming the brutal fact that, whereas a soldier of the caliber of one of Gideons Band could kill his opponent with every shot, it would take his enemy one thousand bullets to achieve the same.

As Israel can field an army of half a million it would take an Islamist rabble of twenty million to overcome them.

They just don't have the numbers.

6 May 2013 at 14:01  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Tony B, I'm a shallow fellow, so perhaps I missed a deeper point you tried to make. As I read your comment, you put down a hypothetical situation with which you suggest we judge a reality.

Johnny Rottenborough uttered: It is odd that Jews who demand their own homeland as a God-given right are so eager to belittle the desire of the British to live peaceably in the land built by their ancestors. That would be odd indeed, Johnny, if it were actually true. 'Tis a day for abstract hypotheticals and outright whoppers, I see.

6 May 2013 at 14:27  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi johnny this jew lives in england and loves it actually.... I think jewish people here as said before have contributed well above the tiny percent we have made of the population...

6 May 2013 at 14:40  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Ps johnny,given your website's views on islam i am surprised you take a dim view of Israel...

6 May 2013 at 14:44  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Ian,

Don't forget that Israeli women also serve in the IDF, as military service is compulsory in Israel for those 18 and over.

6 May 2013 at 14:58  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

IanCad, interesting calculation; I suck at math, so I'm much obliged. The exchage rates do fluctuate though, and make coming up with firm formulas a nightmare, especially when one includes exchange of dead soldiers for living terrorists. You'd need a good scientific calculator for that, I wager.

6 May 2013 at 15:06  
Blogger IanCad said...


I thought that they had stopped that, or at least, disallowed women from serving on frontlines.
I may well be wrong.
Sure was yesterday.

6 May 2013 at 15:07  
Blogger IanCad said...


Our dead boys are better than your live ones!
Israel has little to fear.

6 May 2013 at 15:10  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Ian,

This link to the IDF English version page might help :

6 May 2013 at 15:11  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Hannah Kavanagh (14:44)—On the contrary. I take a dim view of the British for not doing more to protect their homeland from mass immigration, cowed as they are by the fear of being labelled racist. What part Jewish intellectuals have played in promoting the taboo of racism may eventually become clear; I understand that Jews were not unknown in the Frankfurt School.

6 May 2013 at 15:13  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Ian

And also look up the 'Nachshol Reconnaissance Company' of the IDF.

6 May 2013 at 15:14  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Johnny,

There's a book I am sure you'll warm to, which was written by a former Austrian painter about his struggle; I don't think he liked 'Jewish intellectuals' either... now what is it called again?

6 May 2013 at 15:19  
Blogger Young Mr. Brown said...

"I don't expect the task of exegesis is helped by calling people anti-Semites when the task is already difficult enough."

I'm with you on this one, Albert.

Tossing around accusations of anti-Semitism, racism, homophobia, etc. may be a common practice these days, but I take the view that it usually says more about the accuser than it does about the accused.

6 May 2013 at 15:21  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Your Grace,

Well said!

6 May 2013 at 15:48  
Blogger michael north said...

I was under the impression that modern archeology undermines some of the key points of the Jewish narrative, particularly the supposed extermination of the Canaanites.If it were a true account of Israel's arrival in the Promised Land,the Book of Joshua could be cited as the manual for
genocide.(And wasn't the reason for Saul's fall from favour with God due to his neglecting to exterminate his enemies completely?)

It constantly surprises me how commentators on this site go off on tangents.In this case, a piece exemplifying the intellectual exhaustion of liberal Protestantism provokes a furious demolition from our host (sledgehammer and nut) and that in turn unleashes accusations of "anti-Semitism" and so on.

It's only the Church of Scotland. What relevance has that in an age of aggressive secularisation and militant Islam?

6 May 2013 at 15:48  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

6 May 2013 at 16:03  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

The topic of numbers gets weirder, IadCad. Israel's agreement to such exchange rates have earned it the accusation that Jews consider Arabs worthless. On a similar theme a while back some leftie wingnut penned a Master's thesis, no less, where she set out to prove that Jews are racists because Israeli soldiers don't rape. I kid thee not.

I note here that Johnnie Rottenborough and Young Mr Brown are doing a bit of preemptive work by engaging in head-bobbing discussion over what they see is the imminent appearance of the "a" word. They've started with the pathetic passive-aggressive potshots and if further ignored, next comes the pushing of the proverbial envelope and the moaning that any objection to their deep thoughts is a tyrannical Jew-inspired attempt to stifle their free expression. What's your opinion? Do I toy with them, or do I toss them the badge of honour they covet by calling them bloody antisemites?

6 May 2013 at 16:15  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Michael North,

Given your concern over secularist aggressiveness, it is ironic that you and your 'genocide' thesis of the 'OT' is shared by you and Prof. Richard Dawkins :

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

And here :

6 May 2013 at 16:18  
Blogger Jumbo Driver said...

Fear not for Israel, Your Grace. The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob will have his way.

Against all the odds the Almighty has started the return of his people to his land, as prophesied numerous times in the OT. It is coming to pass before our eyes.

We are seeing prophesy fulfilled in our lifetime. We should watch in awe and wonder. However, there are none so blind as those who will not see.

6 May 2013 at 16:25  
Blogger David Lindsay said...

On Christian Zionism, you need to read the views of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, which has the staunchly Cranmerian Professor Gerald Bray on its Council.

You also need to attend to the large Anglican community in Jerusalem, who are the descendants, in every sense, of Orthodox who were Reformed by Anglican missionaries minded to do such a thing; they are at the heart of the contemporary Confessing Anglican movement.

6 May 2013 at 16:28  
Blogger Young Mr. Brown said...

"I was under the impression that modern archeology undermines some of the key points of the Jewish narrative, particularly the supposed extermination of the Canaanites."

Mr. North, it has been alleged for generations that archaelogy undermined (and even disproved) the Old Testament. In fact, there are considerable limits to what archaelogy can prove.

Professor Alan Millard of the University of Liverpool, is fairly confident that archaeology does not undermine the Old Testament.

See, for example, his article "The Bible and Archaeology; Friends or Foes?" at

6 May 2013 at 16:29  
Blogger michael north said...

Hannah Kavanagh

I have no "thesis" about the OT. I simply made what I consider a sensible comment on what the written record claims. I don't believe the account in Joshua. Those who do have to hold their noses while reading it.

Thanks for the Dawkins stuff, but I execrate him.

6 May 2013 at 16:35  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Michael North,

Oh that's quite alright. It's not for me to get into a discussion on Biblical criticism. I mean, I don't believe the New Testament, but others do. I can respect that, just as I am free to say I don't agree with the narrative there.

6 May 2013 at 16:48  
Blogger Thomas Keningley said...

Isn't supercessionism an inherent part of covenant theology, the bedrock of the Reformation up until the appearance of dispensationalism in the 19th C.?

6 May 2013 at 17:02  
Blogger Young Mr. Brown said...

"Isn't supercessionism an inherent part of covenant theology,...?"

Mr Keningley, some of us would take the view that supercessionism is not just an inherent part of covenant theology; it is simply Biblical orthodoxy - held to by the apostles, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic Church, and the Reformers - in fact, pretty well everybody up until, as you say, some people in the 19th century came up with some novel ideas.

6 May 2013 at 17:14  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

6 May 2013 at 17:27  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Forgot to address my comment.

Mr Keningley: Without being anything close to a Christian theologian, and while I don't accept the claim, of course, I don't have philosophical conniptions over supercessionism as long as it doesn't lead to persecuted or dead Jews. We are of competing religions, but the competition need not be deadly and as recent history has shown, it can even be amicable. Secularism, with its emerging neo-paganism and a militant Islam have left us floating, cold, wet and scared, on the same rickety coracle and we better bail in unison before we head into the drink. That's my take on it in a nutshell.

6 May 2013 at 17:29  
Blogger IanCad said...


Weird, weird, weird.
After every one of those prisoner swaps the Islamists celebrate wildy and pronounce it a great victory.
The Arabs would exchange their brothers @ five thousand to one if Israel would consent to allow them to demean themselves at so frightful a rate.
No, to me it seems that the Israelis hold the Arabs in far higher esteem than they themselves expect.

Thomas Keningley.


6 May 2013 at 17:32  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


It is well understood that one Jewish soldier is the equal of one thousand Sons of Ishmael.

You shouldn't despise the enemy. That's the kind of thinking that led to unforseen slaughter at Little Big Horn and Isandlwana. It's also the kind of thinking that led to Israeli compacency in 1973 - when the existence of the state of Israel actually did hang in the balance for a few short hours.


6 May 2013 at 17:36  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Perhaps so, Ian, which comes to show that value and price are flexible, perception-based cultural constructs. Which is why economics will always be closer to knuckle bone divination than to an empirical science.

6 May 2013 at 17:37  
Blogger IanCad said...


Although you have quoted me somewhat out of context I should say that in no wise do I hold the Arabs (enemy?) in contempt.
They are children of Abraham.

I do try to counter the hysteria and dodgy eschatology of the Dispensationalists who hang their hats on the notion that prophecy is entirely centered on the re-establishment of the Jewish State.

6 May 2013 at 17:50  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

The right of Israel to possess the land which it occupies has nothing to do with Biblical promises. It is predicated upon the power of sovereign nations to exercise authority as they see fit. It is predicated upon the blood and sweat of Jews who went to Israel. They came bearing plowshares - which under compulsion of threat they found necessary to beat into swords. The Jews stole nothing. They came to a wasteland and converted it into a garden. When attacked, they defended themselves, and had the temerity to win. Woe to them if they had lost. There would have been a second Shoah to commemorate.

But they did not lose.


6 May 2013 at 17:51  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

And on the back of Carl's post, I would like to ask those that don't want Israel to exist is this - what exactly would you do with the 6 or 7 million Israeli Jews (and possibly Christians and Druze) who do NOT want to live in a state dominated by Islamic fanatics and would doubtless be slaughtered in rivers of blood (Hamas Charter is to abolish the state of Israel and expel all Jews). So the people here who talk about 'human rights' and the 'concern for their christian brothers', might want to wake up and smell the coffee in the event that Israel is either defeated in battle or forced to dismantle itself at the behest of the 'great powers' pandering to Islamic terrorism.

Israel is here to stay and I think they'd rather die fighting than surrender and live-regardless of whether or not the terrorists, Arab governments, 'international community', right wing fascists, liberal Guardian readers and the rest like it .

'Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori '

6 May 2013 at 18:00  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Well, you and our Hareidi (ultra-Orthodox), would agree, Carl. Me, of the religious Zionist persuasion, sees the rebirth of Israel as a divine miracle, an event which would have been unlikely without Almighty's mercy and assistance. We are weak and faulty humans like the rest of you, not supermen, you know. The question of whether it presages the messianic promise or not I will leave to my more theologically talented betters.

6 May 2013 at 18:04  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


Although you have quoted me somewhat out of context...

Yes, I knew there was a risk of that. But I decided to make the comment for the sake of the general reader because I think that attitude does exist way down deep in the hearts of many people. It's an exceptionally dangerous attitude.

The Israelis will only be defeated once. They can't afford to be complacent. That's the perspective that is missing in silly reports such as the subject of this thread. They take Israeli survival for granted.


6 May 2013 at 18:08  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Politely advancing the argument that the Jewish contribution to Western civilization may not have been 100 per cent beneficial makes me a Nazi sympathizer (thank you, Hannah) and an anti-Semite (thank you, Avi). I’d be quite cross if I could stop laughing.

6 May 2013 at 18:09  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
A good article. Those heathens in the Church of Scotland should be ashamed of themselves.
As to genocide in the OT, the destruction of their enemies is an ensample to us. When dealing with the influence of the Devil in our own lives, we are to totally eradicate his influence, otherwise, if anything is not dealt with, he has a foothold to destroy us.

6 May 2013 at 18:14  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

"Politely advancing the argument that the Jewish contribution to Western civilization may not have been 100 per cent beneficial"

But you haven't actually argued politely or otherwise, arguments about Jewish contribution to 'western civilisation', just giving us a link about how the English have been here since the ice age (even though the actual word England comes from a title of a German tribe) saying that the Torah is a fairy tale excuse for immigration to Israel. Then you start suggesting Jews are behind the current immigration policy of the UK via the frankfurt school or whatever.

Furthermore you then went onto complain that you are called racist if you disagree with said UK policy, but somehow that is mixed in with Israel, which allows Jews to go to said country....

As for the Nazi bit. Well I merely pointed out you'd like the book written by an insane former Austrian painter. I think he didn't quite think that Jewish contribution to civilization was any good either.

6 May 2013 at 18:24  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


Yes, that difference is found in the religious divide between us. I hold that OT Judaism ended irrevocably with the destruction of the Temple by the Romans - when the Aaronic Preisthood was lost without possibility of re-establishment. The Mosaic covenant was revoked for disobedience and all promises yet to be fulfilled would be realized through the Church. I recognize a legitmate Jewish state in Israel, but I do not attach any eschatological significance to that state.

That as you say is of the important subject of Theology. We can argue about that without killing each other. But this thread is about the more temporal concern of Israeli security and survival. I think we would both agree that we would rather not see a live broadcast from CNN of Jewish infants being impaled on pitchforks. I wish the more muddled-headed among us (you know, the kinds of people who write "even-handed" reports on Palestine) would understand just how real that outcome could be.


6 May 2013 at 18:24  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...


Herein is a link to a list of British Jews who have contributed to Britain and therefore 'Western Civilisation'. Not bad for a group which has never been more than 1% of the population :

6 May 2013 at 18:26  
Blogger IanCad said...

I'm glad you did that Carl.
So very important and quite right.

"They take Israeli survival for granted."

You've got it.

6 May 2013 at 18:28  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

There you go, Johnny, that's the spirit. It's all about having a good laugh. I haven't called you an antisemite yet, though; you must do a little better than this polite hemming and hawing, even if you brought up and waved about the charge yourself. ISO 9000 standards, you know.

6 May 2013 at 18:29  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

I'm familiar with your theology on Jews and Israel, Carl. You must excuse my difficulty in believing that your philo-Semitic, pro-Israel positions are purely secular in origin, though. Not that I doubt you or think that such positions are impossible, just that they disappeared with bell bottoms and Beatles hair cuts.

6 May 2013 at 18:37  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Well I am not a bloody theologian, but Judaism is in the blood. Therefore, I support the existence of Israel to the last ditch. No idea about what Revelation and supercessionism ,the theology of says or whatever. It's personal. Love thy neighbour and all that. That is good enough for this old man.

6 May 2013 at 18:41  
Blogger Thomas Keningley said...

Young Mr Brown: I quite agree, the reason I referenced the Reformation in particular was because this is an Anglican (hence part of the reformation) blog.

Avi: Indeed, I support the continued existence of the state of Israel, just not for theological reasons.

6 May 2013 at 18:41  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...


Quite right.Those who wish to smash Israel never tell us what they will do with the Jewish population of that country. They will be 'wringing' their hands when the slaughter starts, if Israel were ever defeated. Swines! I think that Israel and Jewish people have given us an excellent contribution to our country and civilisation. And the religion is sound and wise,even if I am not of that religion myself.

6 May 2013 at 18:44  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Thomas, the theology bit is between you and our common Maker. Your support for our bumbling little state's existence, even by sentiment alone, is enough for me.

6 May 2013 at 18:52  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Just a passing ghost here (as the Kav BBQ starts in 30 minutes- after the 'one show' naturally)... same old, same old. The threads of Judaism and Israel do seem to drag out the anti-semities, loons and conspiracy theorists from the far corners of the web. I agree with his Grace of the substance of the matter at hand (but then I would).

I can't see the point in debating Israel. She exists. That's enough for me. The theology can be debated by the Rabbis and Rebbes et al. But to this humble Jew, the fact is that Israel is a legitimate state and fanatics are trying to destroy it. A strange coalition of Arab governments, left-liberal polemics, far right shit and sometimes secularists who can't stand the idea of a state belonging to Joos.

Tough! Is my initial though.

Now, back to the barbie. Have I got enough salted herring, Scotch,Cobra beer, Arak and beef?!

6 May 2013 at 19:08  
Blogger IanCad said...

I was going to respond comprehensively to your post @ 18:04 but Carl has said it all for me.

However, allow me to offer a different perspective on your statement:

"--sees the rebirth of Israel as a divine miracle, an event which would have been unlikely without Almighty's mercy and assistance--"

The survival of the Jewish race is a living witness to the existence of God. Only through Divine intervention and protection could they have overcome persecution, chastisement, scattering, attempted genocides and all the evils which, unless under the wing of The Creator, would have caused the disappearence of any other peoples.

Not only has Israel survived, it has thrived with all the vigor, distinction and creativity that is a hallmark of the favor and benevolence of God.

6 May 2013 at 19:10  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

6 May 2013 at 19:14  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Um, watching the 'one show' is OK, but the wife and kids (my helpers for the BBQ) are now watching the quiz show 'pointless'.... ahhhh!!! Thankfully our uncles are there to provide a hand! (more Scotch for them).

6 May 2013 at 19:16  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

David, you had to mention scotch and herring, knowing I'm around. I'm in a forgiving mood, though, having just days ago survived a lavish shabbat kiddush featuring both. The surprising liquid winner was a costly, smooth as melted butter Irish whiskey in a bulbous clear bottle. My fingerprints are etched onto its surface, which is probably why I never saw the label.

Ian, I'm familiar with the Exhibit A theorem of Jewish existence as well. There is the nice version, yours, and the darker, late medieval one, which saw the Jew as the personification of Cain, doomed to suffer and survive as killers of G-d and a living warning, a bugaboo to scare children with, to Christians. I'm ok with your version, as it treats us as children of G-d and it fits with our perceived assignment to bear witness to G-d's dominion and serve as light onto the Nations, but do worry about the reappearance of the latter in the emerging reaction against Christian Zionism. If you only knew how preciously few and brief the sweet moments of peace, amity and tolerance are in our history, you'd understand my paranoia.

6 May 2013 at 20:10  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

David Kavanagh

Have I got enough salted herring

I think 'None' should be about the right amount. Maybe we have discovered one of those less-than-100%-positive Jewish contributions to western civilization.


7 May 2013 at 01:07  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


... are purely secular in origin, though.

My statement was deliberately more narrow than that. There is a spiritual and cultural kinship that influences my outlook.

... bell bottoms and Beatles hair cuts.

GAAAGH! MY EYES! NOW WHAT WILL I DO FOR EYES? Sure, maybe I might have mentioned (again) that time you drank Coors Light ... and liked it. But some things are just beyond the pale no matter the level of provocation.

Who believes the Beatles were little more than the whiny voice of a whiny generation.

7 May 2013 at 01:34  
Blogger Andrew Porter said...

BCE ? BCE ???
I expect the use of BCE from ghastly PC university types and Guardian readers, not a former Archbihop of Canterbury.
The use of BCE and CE instead of BC and AD is an express desire on behalf of those that use it to wipe out Christianity as a defining point in history, and should never be used unless that is one's avowed intent.

7 May 2013 at 07:21  
Blogger len said...

Anti Semitism is no stranger to 'the church'. Replacement theology'(the theory that the Church has replaced Israel has become firmly rooted within some sections of 'the church'.)
As others have remarked the very existence of the Jewish people and their re gathering is a testimony to the Word of God and the Integrity of God.
God is working out His Will within the Jewish people not because they are so deserving as such but God is doing so to uphold His Holy name and His promises to the Patriarchs.

'The Church' would do better to remain silent on matters on which it has little or no understanding.

7 May 2013 at 07:36  
Blogger Naomi King said...

God told us that the jewish people will be a blessing and that all that curse her will be cursed. From the time that Britain forsook her GOD APPOINTED mandate for the land of Israel by

1 giving 78% away to the arabs in the early 1920's, then

2 appeasing the arab hatred of the Jewish people during the following decades until the war in turning a blind eye to arab massacres of Jews in Hebron and elsewhere and

3 refusing entry to Israel of jewish people seeking to flee Hitler and his expansion in Europe and finally

4 Refusing entry to ex concentration camp survivors into the Land in the years 1945 to 1948 but instead interned them in camps

We brought odium, contempt and condemnation upon our heads from the international community and the curse of God upon this nation. It is no co-incidence that Britain lost her empire and her "Greatness" during this period. God has not been pleased with us for the duplicitous way we have failed to cared for during the mandate period and subsequently treated his Chosen People.

Shame on Britain and the British people.

7 May 2013 at 08:25  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Ah Carl,

It could be worse. We could have invented the idea of eating the puffer fish.... thankfully on a recent visit to Japan, I made some excuse about not eating shell fish (I do get confused you see).


Well, you've upped the ante with the butter -scotch Irish Whisky.

Andrew Porter,

In an ecumenical gesture, I humbly suggest that the year is really 5,773 AM.

7 May 2013 at 09:27  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Hannah (6th May 10:52)

You raise three important questions hers (apart from, is the whole thing a non-issue since the after life doesn't exist?: election, the number of the saved, and the nature of the saved.

Election - does God choose the elect, or are the Elect those who have responded to God? - is one of the most divisive issues in Christianity. I wish it didn't exist, but it does. Impossible to deal with adequately here. My own view, in a nutshell, is that of C S Lewis: whoever sincerely wants to be saved will be.

On the number of the saved, Christ refused to be drawn. So should we. Speculation on who is destined for hell (even hell in the most figurative sense) is not our prerogative).

On the nature of the saved, I would refer you to the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, and the surprise of both groups. I fully agree with DanJo about cultural Christians.

I would also refer you to Christ's words: "I have other sheep that are not of this fold." You can see this simply as Christ's words to the Jews of his day about the Gentiles, but I believe it has other, ongoing, resonances.

Lively posts: I like your style!


7 May 2013 at 09:38  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Explorer,

My comments there came about because on this thread and other threads, atheists and Christians have had a big hoo-harr about Jews claiming to be special or chosen people. The implication is either to equate this idea with being akin to a fascist master race or to say that there are no chosen people because of Jesus, which means everyone is important. Alas these two notions are far removed from the Jewish idea of a chosen people.

My counter for Christians, you see, is that given that Jesus is the only way to a decent after life- rather than hell with devils and torment, this says that Christianity is very special- the only 'chosen' religion so to speak. And of course there are Christians who say that the Church is chosen in some way- "you are Peter/The Rock" etc which is where our Roman Catholic friends argue with our Protestant friends. But regardless this mindset still suggests an idea of a 'chosen' group.

For those that wish to equate the Jewish idea of a chosen people with Nazi ideology, I would suggest they do their research again, compare and contrast. Then such people can apologise for being so ludicrous.

7 May 2013 at 10:16  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

In respect to your question on the after life, Explorer, I am not sure if you are saying you don't believe in it or if I don't (or are asking if I do). Well the thing is we covered that a while back, in February I think.

There are differing viewpoints within Judaism, but I do accept the idea of an afterlife-Olam Ha-Ba,Gan Eden and Gehinnom (called She'ol).

This is different to the Christian ideas of heaven/hell, but there isn't a defined dogma within Judaism about this, so the mystical tradition may be slightly different to the Orthodox, Conservative or Reform one.

I guess this is in part because as a religion, Judaism's focus is on what you are doing now, in this life, rather than looking beyond for a reward on the prayer cloud and the holy harp.

Secondly because Judaism is a lively, rich and diverse religion. But we just argue about these things till the cows come home...

7 May 2013 at 10:26  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Hi Hannah

I do believe in it. I was simply saying that for those who don't (not necessarily you or me) the issue of Heaven/Hell is a pointless debate.

The Benedictines in medieval Europe ran thousands of hospitals. How's that for involvement in this life? (I'm not a Catholic, so I have no axe to grind).

If you have time, I'd be interested in your take on the last verse of 'Isaiah'. (I'll be out for a while, so responding to any response on your part will be delayed).


7 May 2013 at 10:55  
Blogger Naomi King said...

The good news is that the Holy Bible tells us that the jewish people have been given the Land from the Nile to the Euphrates, so the arabs better get used to the idea that Israel is going to be MUCH bigger (and probably quite soon if the Syrian war continues as it looks like it is going to do). The arabs in the lands from the Nile to the Euphrates, are going to be under Israeli rule. They should be very glad, the Israeli's will do a MUCH better job of it then their own aka the Muslim Brotherhood et al and the Arab Winter.

7 May 2013 at 11:47  
Blogger bluedog said...

Carl @ 18.34, your comments prove that its a funny old world, to use a Thatcherism. If God allowed the fall of the first Israel as an expression of his disappointment over breaches of the Mosaic covenant, why did he chose the Romans as his agent?

There are two extremely significant buildings in Rome, one an arch in the Roman Forum and the other the Colisseum that were unashamedly financed by the proceeds of the destruction and looting of the Temple in Jerusalem.
Why would God seek to teach his chosen people a lesson through the agency of pagan plunder?

7 May 2013 at 13:23  
Blogger bluedog said...

Carl @ 18.34, your comments prove that its a funny old world, to use a Thatcherism. If God allowed the fall of the first Israel as an expression of his disappointment over breaches of the Mosaic covenant, why did he chose the Romans as his agent?

There are two extremely significant buildings in Rome, one an arch in the Roman Forum and the other the Colisseum that were unashamedly financed by the proceeds of the destruction and looting of the Temple in Jerusalem.
Why would God seek to teach his chosen people a lesson through the agency of pagan plunder?

7 May 2013 at 13:23  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Explorer,

As a general rule, I don't really get into 'exegesis' on The Tanakh. Although I am sure that you will be able to find some useful Rabbinic commentaries on Isaiah if you are interested in further research.

7 May 2013 at 13:33  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Bluedog,

'Looted Temple Treasure'.

The return of the Temple Menorah, would be a start.... wonder who has that stashed away in secret vault somewhere?

7 May 2013 at 13:35  
Blogger Peter D said...


Indiana Jones?

7 May 2013 at 13:57  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

CARL: My statement was deliberately more narrow than that. There is a spiritual and cultural kinship that influences my outlook.

Spiritual perhaps, but you are in danger of losing your cultural kinship and perhaps even a seat at one of the better tables in the World to Come with your vicious and uncompromising anti-Clupeidaeism, your public hatred of the Silver of the Seas, the noble herring. If the oily and salty shmaltz version (garnished with ringlets of raw Spanish onion on a Tam Tam cracker) is too masculine for your fey palate, perhaps the more anaemic variety, one fit for the genteel ladies, children and invalids, would be more to your taste? Even lox with cream cheese on a Montreal bagel will at show good intentions. However you resolve this situation, consider yourself cautioned.

DAVID, with my proletarian budget, rarely do the whiskies and single malts I test at our Shul with generous sample sizes enter Casa Barzel. Blessed be the inclination for conspicuous consumption among some of our well-off and generous congregants. May they live to 120. I make do with the more affordable Islay scotch labels, Jamesons Irish whisky and the sharp bite of freezer-chilled Canadian Crown Royal, the latter being a favourite of the old Poylishe Yid'n which they chase with.... you guessed it... shmaltz herring bits at 8 in the morning, right after shaharit.

ANDREW PORTER: BCE ? BCE ?? I expect the use of BCE from ghastly PC university types and Guardian readers, not a former Archbihop of Canterbury......The use of BCE and CE instead of BC and AD is an express desire on behalf of those that use it to wipe out Christianity as a defining point in history, and should never be used unless that is one's avowed intent.

I agree that a former archbishop should use BC/AD, and I'm baffled as to why he wouldn't, but some of us who use BCE and CE do so without the slightest ill will or disrespect for Christianity. I don't have strong opinions on the matter, as I think that such universal and commonly used terms no longer carry a religious message and will resort to either, depending who the readers are. Others, though, hold to the reasonable opinion that the use of BC/AD is in a way a statement of faith or a self-identification as a Christian. I believe the newer designation emerged in theology departments and was first used by Jewish academics to discreetly and properly identify their religious position to Christian readers, who may have otherwise been misled into thinking they are reading Christian materials, and to fellow Jews. It was much later that others, including people of other faiths, atheists and hostile liberals adopted CE and ACE. I also have no personal problems with writing "God" as opposed to "G-d," a theologically unnecessary fashion which emerged in the 70s, but now I usually use the dash to follow convention and to identify as a religious person.

7 May 2013 at 15:40  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Peter,

I think Indian Jones found the Ark of the Covenant (and of course when Fascists tried to open in they got killed!).

7 May 2013 at 16:59  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Avi,

"with my proletarian budget"

Don't put yourself down. We all like you here!

7 May 2013 at 17:00  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Also to clarify my previous remarks to Explorer, I prefer to discuss the broad sweep of themes and issues. For example science and religion, rather than a blow by blow account of passages of the Bible.

7 May 2013 at 17:01  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Avi,

With the god naming thing, I guess we should really use Hashem or Elohim perhaps? When I type G-d I refer to the 'personal', sacred name of the creator (the tetragrammaton in Christian lore).

Apparently I did read somewhere that some people think the burning bush was actually a gas leak or something. And that the parting of the red sea, was the after effects of the Tusami that destroyed the
Minoan civilization.

Atheist speak or divine intervention through natural events.

Not sure why you think?

7 May 2013 at 17:06  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Hi Hannah (17:01)

That's absolutely fine: I'll try to bear it in mind in any future interaction.


7 May 2013 at 17:18  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

HI Explorer,

Well it's because I get a few cranks and loons on my own site that I don't bother with those kind of discussions- which usually end up with a rant against the Talmud or making things up about it and how it is 'damnable heresy against the lord/and or Jesus'. Not what I want to do here or anywhere. Not that I imply at all that you'd do any ranting, but I'd rather be circumspect on these issues.

7 May 2013 at 18:36  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Miss Hanah, but I do have a proletarian budget and a proletarian occupation (my wife, an academic, makes more than I do, but I'm not about to squeeze her to fund my expensive nobility-level palate). Moreover, I'm proud, to the point of showing off, of my working class status and believe in the holiness of work, all work. Somewhere in our Talmud Bavli, perhaps in tractate Berakhot, it is taught that the man who works for his sustenance is greater than the one who fears Heaven but does not. And as you well know many of our greatest of sages were tradesmen and even plain labourers... not that I want to compare myself to them. Believe you me, I'd rather be driving my 18-wheeler than labour as a fletcher, fuller, skinner or dyer, as some of our great rabbis had to.

As for using the name, Hashem, which I do in conversation with other Jews, most folks here won't know it means "The Name" and will imagine all sorts of things.

I'm away from my books and notes and stand ready to be corrected, but I think it was the Rambam, Maimonides, who held that miracles occur in a "natural" manner, as G-d limits Himself to manifestations which are wihethin the framework of the physical universe and laws He created for our needs and pleasure. Personally I think all our miracles manifested as natural occurences; it was the timing that mattered.

7 May 2013 at 18:57  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi avi, oh i feel so ashamed. I didnt mean to attack your working class origin. I meant dont let other people put you down because of them; my mum was from iraq, so i guess i class at jonny rotternborughs third world immigrant(despite my degrees). My flatmate worked in the city and he got put down for his accent, despite being very intelligent(thankfully bro david took him under his wing). We all like you, so hope ur not upset.:)

7 May 2013 at 19:29  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi avi i agree on the issue of peoplemisunderstandings about names of g'-d

7 May 2013 at 19:45  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi avi interesting take on the miracles. I guess if g-d was quite capable of doing what he did outside of the natural world if he wanted. A god is a god is The G-d.

7 May 2013 at 20:02  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

I am surprised that the Church does not make more of the many Old Testament prophecies concerning Israel which we see being fulfilled before our eyes. The scattering, the persecution, the return and the blessing (Google Jewish Nobel prize winners) were all foretold by OT prophets, notably Isaiah but certainly as far back as Moses. This major body of fulfilled prophecy concerning Israel and Messiah Jesus constitutes evidence of a trancendent Deity who exists outside of time.

There is no other people group in world history that compares. Israel gave the world monotheism, the first codified law, and the Saviour, Jesus. And a disproportionate numbrr of Nobel laureates as even YouTube atheist Pat Condell admits. Satan's attempts to destroy her have failed. Israel's success contrasted with Islam's failure is a salutory lesson.

The west must support Israel for the reasons secular Jew Melanie Phillips set out in her book World turned upside down.

7 May 2013 at 20:14  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Good Heavens, no, Miss Hannah, I didn't read your post as an attack, but as a well intentioned, but unnecessary concern over my self esteem. But not to worry; I relish in my occupation. I left academic pursuits and eventually graphic art as well because I couldn't handle the stress and the cultures of those worlds or the fact that all was reduced to desks, papers and bullshit natter in the lunch room. I was screwing up and people were walking all over me. Then, I sat bend the wheel of a tractor trailer and the world became good. The working class hero act I can now pull provides me with unlimited entertainment in a family ofphysicians, profs and lawyers, as I boast that those who are out of shape and can't handle heavy work and bad weather are therefore condemned to sit behind desks, to fence with department politics and go comatosr in board meetings. Not too long ago I was diagnosed with having had LD... learning disabilities... all my life. Thank goodness, otherwise I wouldn't have had the life I have and delight in now.

7 May 2013 at 20:16  
Blogger Peter D said...

Purple Rain

"Personally I think all our miracles manifested as natural occurences; it was the timing that mattered."

Manna from Heaven? Pillar of Fire? The Angel of Death killing the Eygpian first born?

Come now, you must agree God operates outside of nature when He chooses.

7 May 2013 at 20:28  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Peter, yes of course, the Almighty operates outside of nature in that he steps in at times of His choosing and causes natural and seemingly mundane events to appear at the proper time andand to change the course of history. Airborne honey-like fluff that appears now and again in the Sinai, electrical atmospheric events, plagues, all theze occur naturally and all these can be times and enhanced to fulfill a purpose. Not that this how it necessarily all happenned, but that none of the miracles had to violate the laws of nature we have.

7 May 2013 at 20:39  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Avi,

Cool! I am glad you found something you enjoyed doing and that's they key thing I guess. Anyways, I did a fair few strange jobs whilst going through university*, not just bar work. I even worked in a 'processed' meat/pie factory. Ugh. And people say Kosher slaughter is wrong.

*uncle has a bit of a thing about self-reliance and 'making it' on your own merits, financially, you see.

7 May 2013 at 21:52  
Blogger Peter D said...

Purple Rain

Come now that's the rationalist in you. The Bible is packed full of events without natural explanation.

Elijah, for example.

7 May 2013 at 22:29  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

PETER, I meant to remind that my view is not representative. Most orthodox rabbis today would reject my rationalism, which goes further than Maimonides' even more vehemently than you. Nevertheless my take on miracles is neither unusual,nor that radical. I don't reject miracles or G-d's actions in human affairs; I assume only that the descriptions are given in the language and within the paradigms of the times and are figurative rather than literal.

Another rationale I have is that the Almighty may have intended for his people to find the miraculous in the natural, rather than the magical, which would cause them to become credulous about every parlour trick around, and lead them to the sins of avodah zarah, the worship of magic, stars and idols. In any event, not believing literally in the descriptions of the miracles, most of which are found in agaddic and exegesrs of the cabballistic sources, may be frowned upon by some, bit do not violate halakhah.

There are many mystics in my community and among other ones who see and feel wondrous miracles all around them, many who are thought to be on higher level and even holy, yet they all eat, pay bills, squabble with their kids and spouses, form cliques, trespass and sin, get sick and like everyone since Creation, eventually die. To me this suggests that the Almighty has put us all into a very narrow and limited spectral band of physical laws and possibilities. But I could be wrong, of course.

MISS HANNAH, the weirdest job I held in university was loading frozen horse meat onto airplanes going to Switzerland under a strict cloud of secrecy. This was legal and with the assistance of our Ministry of Agriculture, but the packets and the government knew it would upset the public. By then Canada had enough of the starlets having conniptions over the seal hunts.

7 May 2013 at 23:11  
Blogger UziDan said...

What a bunch of Jokers, these Scotisch christians; but don't take that literally 'christians'. For there was no such thing: it is a metaphor for all people that want to follow any ideal......

7 May 2013 at 23:40  
Blogger Peter D said...


Funny old world! Here I am a Catholic and, in some respects, a more orthodox Jew than you!

My most vivid memories of my father was him recounting the Day of Atonement when the High Priest spoke aloud the name of God. I was also taught how God had intervened in history to protect the Jews, overcome their enemies and to establish the Promised Land. I was always in awe of the accounts of Elijah too.

Anyways, I do agree with you about the loons around today who attempt to use magic to impose man's will upon God - a pagan approach and, as a Christian, I would say Satanic.

It's not irrational to accept that God is in complete control of His creation and can do as He wills by whatever method He chooses.

Keep on trucking, as we used to say back back in the day.

8 May 2013 at 00:53  
Blogger YMedad said...

Wait. Wasn't the Land of Israel something very real for Jesus?

From Matthew:

"After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi[a] from the east came to Jerusalem 2 and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

Jews reigning in Jerusalem, Judea, Bethlehem?


"19 After Herod died, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt 20 and said, “Get up, take the child and his mother and go to the land of Israel, for those who were trying to take the child’s life are dead.”

21 So he got up, took the child and his mother and went to the land of Israel."

The Land of ... Israel?

8 May 2013 at 06:33  
Blogger Naomi King said...

The Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, GOD BLESSED FOR EVER. Amen.

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

8 May 2013 at 08:37  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...


That is because of a somewhat classical education- only wealth can destroy Sparta- I think was what your grandfather said to me.

And he was quite right. I would hope I have given you something greater than a piece of paper money- that is the collective wit, wisdom and knowledge of myself and our ancestors, as well as whatever education I could give. You know, I feel that is more precious than all the gold of the Aztecs.

Inherited wealth can corrupt or make one idle and shut off from the world, which is why we do things differently to the other cads, snobs and inheritors of wealth that corrupt our country.

8 May 2013 at 19:27  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Bravo Avi,

I quite agree that the simpler and more straightforward life is the happier route in life. Nowadays, I am content to grow my banana's and be a gentleman farmer.

I'd rather be up at 5 in the morning milking cows, tending to my sheep, feeding my tigers and watching an elephant crap everywhere, than be in some corporate boardroom of idiots and smoozshers.

Being in the countryside, with real chaps, rather than cardboard clark kent or arrogant Oxbridge types, is much better than the 'higher' living of city life, politics and conversations around- how do you chaps say- 'the water cooler'.

8 May 2013 at 19:31  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi lord lavendon, 'cause i never thought anything negative. We are kavanagh's after all.:)

8 May 2013 at 21:50  
Blogger Rasher Bacon said...

Young Mr Brown

Could you tell me why supercession is orthodoxy? Is it because it was 'held onto' or created by the RCC? And how far did Luther reform back to Sola Scriptura in his Reformation text Von den Juden und ihre Lugen? That was the pamphlet which told secular leaders that something like Kristallnacht might be a good idea. He was used by God and was a brave man, but was just a man - covenant theology's assumptions and inheritance on this point just might be open to question. The descendants of the 19th century funnies to whom you refer woke up sooner than the German theologians and saved Jews on Christian principle in the 20th. That wasn't to establish a political state, but to obey the Bible.

I still find it faintly annoying that they are cast as having innovated on God's word by people who trace orthodoxy back through reformers to the RCC, who themselves trace it to early church fathers like Irenaeus, who himself defended those 19th c funnies' reading of plain scripture. I've come across that mistake preached more than once, and that by people who have certificates showing they have studied theology.

Chambon-sur-Lignon was where these Biblical literalists came out with something rather different from the priorities of Covenant Theology. You or Cranmer may be interested in this. Avi may know about it already. Corrie Ten Boom was another example, in Holland.

We don't have all the answers and I'm not having a swing at you personally, but just registering that some people, who avoided politics like the plague, get accused of setting up the Israeli state, when that state was created more by opposition than support.

So, not just 19th century then? And given the way the tide has gone in Scotland's kirk, can we retain some queries about the idea, history and consequences of Church Replacement Theology?

9 May 2013 at 12:44  
Blogger Rasher Bacon said...

Sorry - Corrie Ten Boom was Dutch Reform if a label must be used, but her father's love of 'God's ancient people' was rather different to Luther's relationship, and her grandfather Willem Ten Boom’s ideas about Israel were more responsive to what the Bible presents. Corrie disagreed with the Darbystes of Le Chambon on future events, but I doubt she would have agreed with the Church of Scotland.

Didn't want to mention her to support dispensationalists per se, just to widen base of protest against the idea that Christianity supports writing Jews out of the past and future.

9 May 2013 at 14:40  
Blogger Fr. John+ said...

Umm, NO.

Nothing in this article is true, for it is all predicated on the fallacy that 'those who say they are Jews,' (as St. John noted in Rev. 2:8,9) are NOT the Judeans who once lived in the Levant, but left it, precisely because of the warnings Our Lord gave of the Destruction of Jerusalem.

Moreover, those who 'say they are Jews, and are not' only 'converted' to the Talmudic perversion of the Mosaic religion, some 700 years AFTER the fact

- as Nobel Laureate (and Jew) Arthur Koestler's "The 13th Tribe" made clear;
-as 1950's Jew turned Christian, Benjamin Freedman's numerous articles, including 'Jesus was NOT a Jew' made clear,
- and as modern author (and again, a JEW!) Schlomo Sand makes clear, in his book, 'The INVENTION of the Jewish People.'

As an Anglican, you should know the name and work- and what a "marvelous work in our eyes" it is!- of the Rev. Stephen Sizer, whose honest reportage clearly points out that 'those who say they are Jews, and are NOT'......


This article REEKS of antichrist philo-Deicide rhetoric of a kind I would expect on some god-forsaken Dispensationalist, American "Dallas Theological Seminary" backwater, and has NONE of the 'voice of the fathers.'

I am appalled that a man who dares invoke the name of Archbishop Cranmer, whose own Articles of Religion denied Chiliasm for the English people can posit that the Christ-killers have ANYTHING approaching LEGITIMACY in this, or any other, realm, after the last century, which (Jewish) author Slezkine said, was 'THE Jewish Century."

The lockstep adherence to the false "Hollow Cost" mthos, including (but not limited) to EU 'criminalization' of even THINKING that "the Jews and their lies" (as Dr. Martin Luther wrote) could be just that.... LIES... is no excuse for such utterly ANTICHRIST FALLACIES as this article expounds.

Shame on you, sir. Even Disraeli had the sense to note that it was 'this ungrateful Christendom' that would turn her own back on her Lord and Savior, to crucify Him anew, all because of some bloody 'fear of the jews.'

You've gone down QUITE a few pegs in this cleric's estimation.

- Fr. John+

9 May 2013 at 14:52  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Father John,

Wow! That's quite a rant there. There are still bits of foam in your mouth. Calm down. I am sure that there is a pogrom against 'the Talmudic Christ killers' for you to look forward to later on. The then there's the reading from the Austrian painter about his struggle...

What a loving cleric you must be, following in the footsteps of that Christ of yours. I have to admit, you'd be the first person that I'd go to with a problem for sure and almost certainly 'converts' me to Christianity. Not!

9 May 2013 at 16:01  
Blogger Rasher Bacon said...

Wow. John - did you transform into a centipede while writing that? Not sure our host is a Chiliast, but you've kindly entered into the spirit of what I was objecting to with gusto.

Set piece - and complete with Stephen Sizer reverence. Now I wonder whether Cranmer has ever heard of him...

Do you support Luther's suggestions in his piece on the Jews then? I almost hesitate to ask.

9 May 2013 at 16:11  
Blogger Naomi King said...

The response from the Christian Friends of Israel is :-

Dear Naomi,

Many thanks for this - have downloaded and read this dreadful document. [The astonishing Church of Scotland report is entitled The Inheritance of Abraham? The 'Promised Land',]

I know from previous year's there will be those at the Scottish General Assembly who will speak against this - but sadly (bless them for their stand) they are very much a minority voice.

Warmest regards,

Head of Communication, CFI-UK

9 May 2013 at 17:08  
Blogger The Explorer said...


I can see why you might have had your reservations in regard to me.

Hope you agree re the difference.


9 May 2013 at 18:11  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Fr John+

1. Referencing Sizer doesn't much help your credibility.

2. What exactly is your position relative to the Jewish people these days? It seems ... shall we say ... hostile. I read something like this ...

... can posit that the Christ-killers have ANYTHING approaching LEGITIMACY in this, or any other, realm, after the last century

... and I wonder. Legitmacy regarding what? Do you realize how you presented yourself? Do you realize the inferences that people will have already made based upon the words you wrote? Now would be a good time to clarify your position. Or not, I suppose. And that will provide its own kind of clarity.

who is no part a Dispensationalist

9 May 2013 at 18:30  
Blogger The Explorer said...


Thank you for existing, and for contributing.

You are a model of clarity. I always read your posts with great pleasure.

9 May 2013 at 18:38  
Blogger michael north said...

I can't understand a word of the ravings immediately above.

9 May 2013 at 18:51  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Explorer,

Thanks for that post. I do appreciate the difference. I think that there is a difference between an authentic Christian voice, which by definition and by religion does not, cannot agree with Judaism and the ravings of a loon (in the same way that as a Jew, one cannot agree to the key of Christianity, i.e. Jesus himself).

I think it was said by Avi and Carl that we can disagree on theology, peacefully without the need for the silly stuff posted by 'father' John. In fact, I am surprised that Father John is in any way shape or form a part of the Church, led alone a Minister in it.

As to the specifics of Fr John, I have no time for holocaust deniers or those who would poke fun at mass extermination. I think the record shows those who were put on trial, putting aside the physical and documentary proof, never denied the holocaust, but defended themselves "We Veer only obeying Ooorders".

As for the books mentioned by Jewish authors, much of this has been latched on by the loony right as "proof" that Israel has no claim to Israel. Alas, if it were true (and it is not) that Jews were 100% descended from Khazars, it would overlook one important aspect of Judaism or at least Orthodoxy. You can be a Jew by birth (via your mum) or a Jew by conversion. We are not a racist 'master race'.

In fact my brother David's second wife is Welsh by ethnic background. But as a convert to Judaism, she is fully Jewish and so are her children.

9 May 2013 at 18:57  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Michael North

Your comment appeared immediately after mine. I hope it wasn't mine you were referring to.

There seems to be an occasional issue on this Blog about the order in which posts appear. I think it must be something to do with a mismatch between phone/ipad/computer.

I made an erroneous comment on another string about an answer not being forthcoming when it had, in fact, already been given but took time to appear.

9 May 2013 at 19:42  
Blogger david kavanagh said...


You addressed "Fr" John as "Father".
We are of course assuming "fr" stands for "Father" as in a Priest or Vicar. I think that perhaps there should be an "e" placed instead of the "r". And the a "c" and a "k" followed by another "e" and rounded off by an "r"....

9 May 2013 at 20:07  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9 May 2013 at 20:12  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

'"Hollow Cost" mthos'.

So mythological that I have an uncle who witnessed it at the liberation of a Nazi death camp. So mythological that a conservative estimate of the result of Nazi aggression is about 60,000,000 DEAD, included in that number is about 6,000,000 Jewish people who were neither combatants or civilians, but were simply treated as sub-human cattle, gassed to death by a regime that hated Jews. Put aside the wounded, dispossessed and the fact the half the world was reduced to rubble because a psyco wanted to rule the world and exterminate 'inferior' sub-human races.

Indeed the holocaust was a great cost to Jews and humanity at large.

Shame on you, if you are indeed a 'man' of the 'cloth' for your comments above.

9 May 2013 at 20:14  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi David,

I would say that our 'fr' John has the right of free speech in our liberal democracy- we all have the right to be offended- however- it is sad to see the abuse of that first hand. But that is his choice. I think that if he is really involved in a Church, then poor old him.

9 May 2013 at 21:09  
Blogger YMedad said...

and now they are stacking the deck on dialogue:

my JPost blog

9 May 2013 at 21:13  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

David Kavanagh

the false "Hollow Cost" mthos

Wait. That is a reference to the Holocaust? Oh, my. That changes things considerable. I consider myself reasonably well-informed, so it was troubling to me that I had no understanding of this "Hollow Cost" reference. Now I know why.


9 May 2013 at 21:27  
Blogger david kavanagh said...


I just put two and two together,given the context of the rant. The reply was, I guess, for American eyes understated. Anti-semites and loons like it when people get pissed with them. The faux pas outrage, of 'I'm not an anti-semite' etc, is enough to produce vomit...

9 May 2013 at 21:45  
Blogger david kavanagh said...


Yes the guy is free to express his view. But he is still on the lunatic fringe of anti-semites, holocaust deniers and general Jew haters...

Just sayin.

9 May 2013 at 21:46  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Everyone's having a go at the Fecker John character and here I am, a G-d killing pseudo-Jew Khazar barbarian with an attitude and an itch for creative trashing, but stuck here loading up on diesel on my way to Montreal and back. Unfair. Sniff, sniff.

9 May 2013 at 22:41  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

btw. Just for the record, I am not sure I ever really graspsed what Fr John+ was saying in his post. Evidently it has something to do with Khazar barbarians? I am not even sure if he was asserting or denying that Jews today have some ancestral connection to first century Palestine. Any explanation would be appreciated.


9 May 2013 at 23:02  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Poor old avi, freezing in some wilderness and barely able to post....

9 May 2013 at 23:16  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9 May 2013 at 23:34  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9 May 2013 at 23:35  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Carl,

Wiki is your friend. Google Khazars and the author cited by fr John and see what you find....

in a nutshell the thesis is that Jews were descendants from a group of people called Khazars, from what is now Russia, who converted to Judaism in the 1200s (the idea, at least from the viewpoint of far right and Arab groups, rather than the author of the book, is to suggest Jews, or at least European Jews, have no 'claim' to Israel).

Alas genetic studies suggest that 88% of European Jews (Askenazi) are actually descended from the middle east.... but the fallacy continues in the crackpot realms of the blogsphere.

Hannah 'Zionist' Kav

9 May 2013 at 23:38  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Note on the khazars: wouldn't make a difference if all Jews were. We don't identify by but by Covenant and observance ofauthentic tradition.

Hannah: cold? Got the air conditioner going now as I'm having get finding in the cab.

10 May 2013 at 01:02  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Avi,

Just concerned for your welfare as ever! And I agree with you on the khazars, as noted in my post at 18.57. Hope you get back safely.

10 May 2013 at 01:11  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


Thank you for your kind words. However, I probably shouldn't take credit for my existence. ;)


10 May 2013 at 03:51  
Blogger Rasher Bacon said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10 May 2013 at 17:03  
Blogger Fr. John+ said...

I see that the propaganda from the Deicide corner has done its work quite well among the readers of your blog. Which means, you are worshiping the devil, and not Jesus Christ.

Semites and Japhethites (if one is using the biblical division of the sons of Noah) are blood brothers. But DNA evidence clearly shows that 'those who say they are Jews, and are not' that White Europeans and the 'sons of Khazar' are not in any way genetically related.

As to the Hollow Hoax, I deny the validity of the assertion that some mythical number of supposed Jews did, just as the International Red Cross figures did, when comparing figures before WWII and after WWII... indeed, numbers of 'worldwide Jewry' INCREASED during the war.

Sorry, you need to stop worshiping Idols, and start worshiping the Lord Jesus Christ, and his Church as the ark of salvation.

12 May 2013 at 14:17  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Fr john, u can deny the mass slaughter of european jews all u want, but outside of fascist land the sky is still blue and the earth goes around the sun...

12 May 2013 at 19:16  

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