Thursday, June 13, 2013

Pickles flies the Flag of England


Brandon Lewis is Parliamentary Under Secretary of State at the Department for Communities and Local Government, working under Eric Pickles. Yesterday he tweeted on a matter upon which His Grace has previously written - the EU’s deep sense of insecurity when it comes to flag-flying. Here's the relevant bit of Monday's Hansard:
Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government if his Department will encourage local authorities to follow the example of Cumberland in raising awareness of their county flags and coats of arms. [158347]

Brandon Lewis: Since May 2010, my Department has taken a series of steps to champion the flying of local and national flags across the United Kingdom.

We have regularly flown county flags from outside our offices in Victoria to mark county days or those of their patron saints, and we have explicitly recognised England 's traditional counties such as Cumberland and Middlesex. We have also recognised wider localities, such as the kingdom of Wessex , which was the foundation of the English nation.

Previously, many parts of Whitehall and municipal officialdom have shunned our traditional and historic identities, many of which date back over a thousand years of English history. Our moves to champion local identities complements this Government's abolition of unelected regional government in England which was based on European Union's artificial “NUTS1” administrative boundaries.

My Department has amended the law to make it easier to fly flags without a permit from the council. A plain English guide, which provides a brief summary of the simplified rules over flag flying, is available online: www.gov.uk/government/publications/flying-flags-a-plain-english-guide

We have encouraged councils to fly the Cross of St George with pride and we have challenged the tiny minority who have foolishly tried to ban the flying of our national flags for the misplaced fear of “giving offence”. Community cohesion is strengthened—not undermined—by flying the flag.

We have not undertaken an explicit programme to raise awareness of coats of arms, but I would welcome suggestions from my hon. Friend and other hon. Members. I am also keen to support local communities, be they a county, district, borough, city, town, village, burgh, parish or riding, in establishing and flying their own local flags.

Of course, flying a flag should be a pleasure, not a chore. Our actions in supporting local people in flying their flags with pride are in contrast with the draconian actions of the European Commission, which has sought to bully Britons into flying the EU flag under the threat of fines through Article 7(2) of EC Regulation 1828/2006. Any institution which seeks to coerce people into flying its flag is one with a deep sense of insecurity about the lack of its public affection and support.
It is good to have the thrust of Eric Pickles' 2011 speech on the parliamentary record. It might make it a bit harder for councils to harass (or the police to arrest) those who dare to display the St George Cross. Isn't it time Mr Pickles was promoted?

82 Comments:

Blogger Richard Watterson said...

Yes, an obsession with the flying of flags clearly marks him out as suitable for a higher office.

13 June 2013 at 09:55  
Blogger Bob said...

Why bother to fly flags? Humanity is all one nation. There's the Western categorising mind at work again ;)

:)

Peace and love, dudes.

The sky in Europe is no different from the sky at home.

-Yukichi Fukuzawa

13 June 2013 at 10:08  
Blogger Roy said...

Richard Watterson said...

Yes, an obsession with the flying of flags clearly marks him out as suitable for a higher office.

Pickles is in no way obsessed with flying flags. It is the left-wing morons who regard displays of patriotism as racist who are obsessed with such things. Pickles is simply displaying common sense in encouraging people to stand up to the bullying quislings.

Why have leading Labour and Lib Dem MPs failed to condemn the quislings in their parties who were responsible for trying to ban the flag of St George in the first place? It the the patriotically-deficient left who have allowed the far right to use that flag as their symbol.

By the way, I am not an Englishman and so would not fly the St George's flag, but I am all in favour of English people doing so.

13 June 2013 at 10:15  
Blogger Richard Watterson said...

Right. In the same way as it's the left, not the right, that's obsessed with homosexuality, but it is the right that constantly bangs on about it, I guess. Personally I see nothing wrong in English people flying English flags in England. It's just the idea that going on about flags makes him suitable for promotion that tickled me.

13 June 2013 at 10:25  
Blogger ukFred said...

Your Grace, has your mind left on its annual holidays?


What Eric Pickles has said is common sense. In any government since Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister, that puts him in line for an early exit.

13 June 2013 at 10:46  
Blogger bluedog said...

Bob the Buddhist @ 10.08, but didn't your lot invent prayer-flags, and, God help us, wind-chimes?

13 June 2013 at 10:47  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

Pickles isn't "going on" about flags he is merely putting the anti-English bigots in their place.

The denial of a peoples ethnicity and nationhood, and their ability to express them, is a hate crime.

I have a St Georges Cross. I WILL be flying it.

If any left wing/multiculturalist retard objects they will be told to go and swivel.

13 June 2013 at 11:02  
Blogger Gareth said...

I love to see people from all over the world express their patriotism. It is absolutely right and natural for anyone to have love and affection for the place they call home, the ways and customs which they adhere to, and the people they share their home with.

How else can you hope to understand a foreigner's love for their country?

13 June 2013 at 11:12  
Blogger Bob said...

@bluedog

Prayer wheels too!

:D

Peace.

13 June 2013 at 11:22  
Blogger Richard Watterson said...

Harry-ca-Nab

Wow. What a hero.

13 June 2013 at 11:25  
Blogger Peter D said...

Is it okay for Roman Catholics to fly the Papal flag? Or is this showing loyalty to a foreign power?

Let's remember Northern Ireland where the flying of flags is deeply significant. Flags can be a symbol of national or local pride and identity. They can also be used inappropriately to highlight difference and cause division.

13 June 2013 at 11:27  
Blogger Nick said...

I've never been a fan of any flag-waving, but what Eric Pickles says about national and regional identity is a wider and quite serious issue.

we are rapidly losing any sense of nationhood, not least because of our Government being psychologically enslaved to the Brussels zeitgeist.

To lose our identity would reduce us to politically correct euro-drones. We should not delude ourselves about the EU's aspirations. It DOES want Europe to be a culturally homogenous super-state with its identity defined by faceless eurocrats. The march towards United States of Europe is slow but relentless

Should Mr Pickels be promoted? Probably not. his conservative credentials are not impresive: He voted for SSM for example.

13 June 2013 at 11:33  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Cranmer has got this one just about right. I mean, whatever else England is, it is England, and why shouldn't people be able to fly the flag of St George if they want to? Hell, even here in Ireland, it's not at all uncommon to see that flag flying outside pubs at Six Nations time, and I've never heard of anyone having a problem with it. It's simply an identifying emblem, and unless you have a problem with people being who they are - with their very existence, you might say - then why should anyone complain? These reports of people getting arrested for flying their own flags in their own countries are just getting worse and worse.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=586213

13 June 2013 at 11:50  
Blogger IanCad said...

Peter D @ 11:27

As the Papal Flag is an ensign of a foreign power it would seem to me discourteous at the least to fly it in this realm. That is, unless it were displayed beneath the Union Jack.

Flag etiquette is a bit complicated and it is easy to ruffle feathers if protocol is not closely followed.

13 June 2013 at 11:55  
Blogger bluedog said...

Bob @ 11.22,it must require a categorising mind to paint prayers on to a wheel.

:)

Banzai!

13 June 2013 at 12:02  
Blogger JohnH said...

Bob said...

The sky in Europe is no different from the sky at home.

-Yukichi Fukuzawa


Good; then do us a favour and go home.

13 June 2013 at 12:10  
Blogger richardhj said...

Richard Watterson (10:25) ,

To merge your two subjects into one comment, if the left are not obsessed with homosexuality then why do they keep flying the gay flag? It is certainly flown far more in my town than the flag of St George ever is. Outside parks, on public buildings, and it would appear to be on every occasion that they possibly find an excuse to fly it.


It's a pity of course that there isn't a photograph of Mr Pickles with the English flag in the article.

13 June 2013 at 12:12  
Blogger bluedog said...

IanCad @ 11.55 said, 'Flag etiquette is a bit complicated and it is easy to ruffle feathers if protocol is not closely followed.'

Indeed. Some years ago this communicant was crewing a well-found ketch somewhere off Spithead in the Solent. An illustrious naval figure was aboard as a guest, and for several hours he never uttered a word. Suddenly an RN warship emerged from Portsmouth and headed west, passing the ketch. There was a well modulated explosion, 'Good God, he's flying his ensign from the fore!'.

After which silenced reigned again for the rest of the afternoon. It seems a great crime had been committed and no doubt a thunderous broadside would shortly be received by OIC Portsmouth. At the very least.

13 June 2013 at 12:16  
Blogger Peter D said...

Iancad

"As the Papal Flag is an ensign of a foreign power it would seem to me discourteous at the least to fly it in this realm. That is, unless it were displayed beneath the Union Jack."

True, the Vatican City flag is the legal flag of an independent state - hardly a "foreign power". For Catholics, this is an emblem of allegiance to God rather than to a nation state.

The Vatican and Holy See flags consists of two squares, symbolic of the Vatican following God's rules and not man's. The crossed keys represent the keys to Heaven, given by Jesus to Peter. The gold key represents spiritual power; the silver key represents worldly power.

My actual point was that flags are symbols of allegiance and I doubt if it were flown anywhere, for example during Papal visits, that it would be placed below any national flag.

13 June 2013 at 12:33  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Bob

Why bother to fly flags? Humanity is all one nation. There's the Western categorising mind at work again ;)

You should attempt to raise a mixed-race child in Japan if you think this is true. You will be quickly disabused of your notion.

carl

13 June 2013 at 13:23  
Blogger Anglican said...

I do not fly flags, but (in England) the Union Flag and St George's Cross should be flown on suitable occasions - it might also make certain immigrant groups - and even some ignorant English - know which country they are living in.

I support traditional county flags and emblems, but have no feelings whatever for my county flag, which was only invented some 15 years ago.

13 June 2013 at 13:35  
Blogger Richard Watterson said...

Richardhj. How do you attribute its being flown to "the left"? I could be wrong, but I don't think all gays are lefties.

My comment about homosexuality derives from an observation of mine. For some time I have entertained the notion of becoming a Christian, and being interested in Anglicanism had subscribed to the RSS feed of a site called "Anglican Mainstream". Unfortunately I learned very little about Anglicanism from this site, and nothing at all about Jesus, since the site offered nothing but a relentless stream of anti-gay hatred, interspersed with the odd article opposing women bishops. Amusingly one author stated in one such anti-gay article that it was "not the right, but the left, that was obsessed with homosexuality". The irony of this on a site containing virtually nothing but (negative) articles about homosexuality was obviously lost on the author. I quickly unsubscribed, I can't think why.

13 June 2013 at 13:45  
Blogger graham wood said...

The EU rag should not exist. It is not a State, a country, or representative of a people.
But as it is symbolic of a corrupt, arrogant and useless bureaucracy it should never be flown.

However, When it is displayed it should always be placed in a position of subservience, UNDER the national flag.

13 June 2013 at 13:47  
Blogger IanCad said...

Good story bluedog, just one of the many pitfalls for those who nail their colours to the mast!

There is nothing that will get an American more bent out of shape than flying Old Glory upside down.
It is however, perfectly legal to burn it or deface it or even to use it as toilet paper.

13 June 2013 at 14:19  
Blogger The Judicious Hooker said...

Peter D:

Anyone with any knowledge of how the Papal states were so incompetently governed until unified with the Italian nation in 1870 would not endow its flag with such significance.

After 59 years of papal petulance at the loss of territory, the Lateran Treaty in 1929 finally freed the popes from their self-imposed 'prisoner in the Vatican' status. Papal blessings could now be conducted from St Peter's Square, looking out on Italian territory, rather than from the inner courtyard, facing away from Italy!

Emblem of allegiance to God or emblem of the lust for temporal power? A lust which is out of step with the march of history and incompatible with the essence of the Petrine ministry of unity for the sake of the churches.

13 June 2013 at 15:28  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

Richard Watterson

I know. Its a burden I carry lightly though.

13 June 2013 at 15:39  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Graham Wood,
Well said. The EU flag should not be flown, anywhere at anytime, as it represents a corrupt, uncaring political fiction.
If it is ever flown, it's rightful position is below all other national flags that have been hoisted.
I look forward to the day when the EU is found only in history books and the nations have liberated themselves.

13 June 2013 at 15:49  
Blogger IanCad said...

Peter D,

To quote you:

"True, the Vatican City flag is the legal flag of an independent state - hardly a "foreign power".

What, with observer status at the United Nations, the exchange of ambassadors with nearly one hundred and fifty countries and full diplomatic relations with the EU, it seems a stretch for you to assert that the Holy See is not a foreign power.

13 June 2013 at 15:50  
Blogger David Hussell said...

The Vatican City flag. To fly or not to fly ?

I don't feel desperately strongly about this either way, but surely, The Vatican is purely a spiritual power, and a distinctly Christian one, pointing back to our Catholic heritage. It is hardly comparable to the anti-Christian political power of the EU, and with ever more being sought, all pointing to the ultimate aim of abolishing the nations and creating a cultural alphabet soup dominated by its bureaucracy. I note that Muslim symbols are becoming increasingly common in some parts of the country, and I know which one I would prefer.

13 June 2013 at 16:38  
Blogger Richard Watterson said...

Harry-ca-Nab

Touché!

13 June 2013 at 16:56  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
Yes, promote Pickles to obscurity.
He has been a right pain in the neck to his constuents over SSM.

13 June 2013 at 17:18  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Mr Pickles gets some good ideas, at a tactical level, but a strategist, he's certainly not. He doesn't have a clue about his main area of responsibility, Town and Country Planning, seeing only simplistic answers to complex, highly inter-related problems. But what's new ? Gummer, bless his little beefburgers, is so far, the only politician on the right who has displayed an aptitude for what is, in these crowded islands, a necessary area of Government activity.

13 June 2013 at 17:31  
Blogger IanCad said...

David Hussel,

"---The Vatican is purely a spiritual power---"

I have to suggest that even a casual study of the history of the Roman Church would convince you otherwise.

Incidentally, the founders of the EU were all strong Catholics. At one time Robert Schuman was being promoted for sainthood.

The first, and current full term President of the European Council, Herman Van Rompuy is also a strong Catholic.
Thus, I am having some difficulty reconciling your contention that the Vatican and the EU are mortal foes with the facts.

13 June 2013 at 17:53  
Blogger Bob said...

For shame, you negative thinkers! "Those who are free of resentful thoughts surely find peace."

:)

Peace.

13 June 2013 at 18:28  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...



The flying of British / English national flags in this part of the EU is nothing short of rebellion. Those who do so will be severely punished.

By Order, EU Occupation Forces.




13 June 2013 at 18:48  
Blogger Richard Watterson said...

"Mr Integrity"


"He has been a right pain in the neck to his constuents over SSM."


What, all of them?

13 June 2013 at 18:50  
Blogger Corrigan said...

I love the way Ian Cad seems to think that all Catholics, even the purely nominal ones, are part of some vast army being directed from the Vatican. If only it were so, Ian, if only it were so.

13 June 2013 at 19:36  
Blogger David Hussell said...

IanCad,
Historically, yes the Papal States were, I grant you, political powers, but that was then, and this is now. True it has retained some vestiges of a nation state, with a bank, courts and even cells for prisoners, but I see no physical army or other expression of political power, but perhaps you see otherwise. It can not impose legislation on us, only offer advice, and personally , I am happy to listen to that, although I may not agree with it. Are you perhaps suggesting that the Vatican has plans afoot to regain it's territories, in which case I may agree with you.

I accept that strong Catholics are involved in the EU but what does that prove? There are probably strong atheists, strong Protestants and strong what have you.
I am not by the way pro-EU, being a Ukip activist, but I am merely questioning whether we need to be as suspicious about flying the Vatican flag as we are,quite rightly, with the real threat, the EU and its symbols. I don't want to be seen as a little Englander, as I am not.

13 June 2013 at 19:44  
Blogger Peter D said...

I live in Scotland (I know, I know, ... its a cross I chose to bear). Is it wrong of me to display the Cross of St George or the Irish tricolour during sporting tournaments?

13 June 2013 at 19:52  
Blogger IanCad said...

Come off it Corrigan, I'm not talking about the cultural Catholics or the foot soldiers who, in keeping with the highest ideals of Christianity, labour to help the poor, the sick and the untouchables.

I'm talking about the system which has visited death and persecution on millions.

Sure, Rome is passing through a benign phase. It presents a fair face.
Restore to it the power it once had over Kings, Princes and the souls of men and tyranny will again rule.

13 June 2013 at 19:55  
Blogger IanCad said...

David Hussell,

I didn't see your post prior to replying to Corrigan.
It would partially serve as a response to you.
Let me add that power once tasted and then lost is always yearned for again. The Holy See is still a very powerful player on the world's stage.
Within the church there are many who have such blind faith in it that they say it hasdoneno wrong.

13 June 2013 at 20:05  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Ah, the old Roman mask is firmly back in place, is it, Ian? So, you reckon Francis and his diabolical Jesuits are plotting nefariously against the secular paradises of Europe? Let me know how that works out for them, won't you?

13 June 2013 at 20:19  
Blogger David Hussell said...

IanCad,
OK I see where you are coming from, it's the history may repeat itself idea. Well yes, maybe sometimes it does, or more likely you see an echo of it, as it goes off in a similar but different direction. But tonight anyway I feel in a more, here and now, pragmatic mood, so I'm allowing them a bit of flag flying as I don't feel threatened, politically or legally by The Pope. In fact I regard him as generally, an ally in defending the shared Christian faith. I may even buy a flag. Now that would get tongues wagging in my benefice !

13 June 2013 at 20:29  
Blogger IanCad said...

Corrigan

"--Francis and his diabolical Jesuits--"

Well, you have that right. It says a lot about the name of the order when through its equivocation, trickery and downright treachery it became a common adjective.
As in "jesuitical."

13 June 2013 at 20:37  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Somebody mention ‘nominal Catholics’ ?

Excellent types, have a special place in God’s heart, don’t you know...


13 June 2013 at 20:40  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Ian, it really shows how much you actually know about the Catholic Church that you could even, for a fraction of a second, entertain the thought that the Jesuits are plotting some kind of subversion against whatever it is liberal society thinks it stands for. The Jesuits were something to behold once, but these days they've gone so far off the reservation they barely even qualify as Catholics at all anymore. No Catholic trusts them, and the only reason we may have any faith in Francis himself is only because there is a rumour that he is not liked within the order.

13 June 2013 at 20:56  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Oh, and I suppose there's that thing about him being selected by the Holy Spirit, too, if you believe that kind of thing....

13 June 2013 at 20:57  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

I live in Scotland (I know, I know, ... its a cross I chose to bear). Is it wrong of me to display the Cross of St George or the Irish tricolour during sporting tournaments? -- Peter D

Not at all, not if you take proper and honesr measures to protect your dependents' future by updating your will and topping off your life and disibility coverage.

13 June 2013 at 21:04  
Blogger Peter D said...

Avi

Meant to say you look very avant-garde and hip in your new photo. You must be a sore trial to your synagogue and Rabbi!

13 June 2013 at 21:53  
Blogger Peter D said...

IanCad

'Jesuitical', goodness is that word still used today?

Today's brighter Jesuits may still use equivocation and oversubtle reasoning but not in defence of orthodox Catholic doctrine or promoting the authority of the Church.

As for Pope Francis, given some of his recent statements, one suspects he lacks theological clarity rather than using subtle arguments. There is a difference.

You can sleep easy in your bed free from any fear that Rome is planning temporal world domination.

13 June 2013 at 22:09  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Oh no, not another invasion Armada on it's way northwards, this is becoming repetitious.
Too dark outside for bowls, I'm off to bed, yawn.
Good night all.

13 June 2013 at 22:40  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Richard Watterson said...
"What all of them?"
Well yes, as far as I can tell. He is the nominated Conservative and up till now constituents have voted Conservative but not because of him.
Since the last election I have not come accross a single person, not even a Conservative councillor that actually likes him and thinks he is good.

13 June 2013 at 23:18  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Why, thank you, Peter. That's my square look actually; just lost the ponytail and about 4 inches of beard. Orders from wife. She's a prof and I had to attend a big faculty to-do of hers and not have people offer me change.....or their wallets and watches. Even wore a tie, if you can imagine it. And our rav doesn't shock easy and even looked a tad disappointed; every shul needs someone to make everyone feel normal and better about themselves.

14 June 2013 at 03:33  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Carl 13:23
"Why bother to fly flags? Humanity is all one nation. There's the Western categorising mind at work again ;)

You should attempt to raise a mixed-race child in Japan if you think this is true. You will be quickly disabused of your notion."

Plenty of miwed race children in Thailand and most are good looking.
I have met Thai-Japanese ones too.
Only the national flag can be flown in Thailand.Foreign flags not allowed although the Asean flags are flying outside some schools. I like the Thai Navy flag myself.
The skies are a bit cloudy now its the rainy season-thats Thailand not England!
Lord Green in Bangkok yesterday trying to increase British-Thai trade saying Thailand should be seen as a gateway to the Asean Economic Community.


14 June 2013 at 05:21  
Blogger LEN said...

(remember I didn`t start this)
'

The Papal flag' should more correctly show 'the skull and crossbones 'to symbolize what they have stolen from True Christianity.

'The Keys' belong to all true followers of Jesus Christ the Catholics allege these were given to Peter(who was the FIRST to publicly recognize Christ but countless millions have done so since) and [somehow?]the Catholic Church stole/took these from Peter and now have sole possession of them?.

IF Catholics followed the teachings of Jesus Christ instead of their' made up' religious organization perhaps they would have the authority to show some sort of flag relating to Jesus Christ rather than trying to prove their' authority?'.

All Believers were given authority to use 'the keys' and to have direct access to God but this doesn`t suit the purposes of the 'Catholic religious system' who prefer to keep their [false] position as' middle man' and dispense 'salvation' as a reward for following the teachings of the Catholic religious system.

'Skull and crossbones' would cover that false religious system nicely.


14 June 2013 at 07:44  
Blogger LEN said...

'National identity' or indeed even National sovereignty have no place in the plans of those behind the EU.

The EU flag blowing in the wind to the strains of "Ode an die Freude" is all that is required thank you very much.

14 June 2013 at 07:50  
Blogger Manfarang said...

National Identity
Prince William's Indian ancestry link.

14 June 2013 at 09:09  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

Manfarang

If you worked out that that his Armenian Great, Great, Great, Great, Great grandmother carried an Indian mitochondrial DNA (which could have come from many, many, generations before her) then the Indian link is insignificant.

What the papers fail to do is say what the other 99.99% of Williams DNA ancestry is.

14 June 2013 at 12:20  
Blogger Darter Noster said...

Richard Watterson,

"My comment about homosexuality derives from an observation of mine. For some time I have entertained the notion of becoming a Christian, and being interested in Anglicanism had subscribed to the RSS feed of a site called "Anglican Mainstream". Unfortunately I learned very little about Anglicanism from this site, and nothing at all about Jesus, since the site offered nothing but a relentless stream of anti-gay hatred, interspersed with the odd article opposing women bishops."

Well, what would you expect to find on the website of a group dedicated to opposing any alteration in the Church's teaching on marriage and Scriptural authority? It's like going to the website of Modern Church and being shocked that they think Jesus was just a groovy guy in sandals and the Roman Empire's answer to Gandhi.

Most people who wanted to find out more about the Church of England would have gone to, say, the Church of England website, or Wikipedia as a first port of call. Or read what Anglican Mainstream actually was, before subscribing to its RSS feed.

Would I be right in thinking that your reasons for signing up to Anglican Mainstream had more to do with wishing to confirm an existing perception, than they did with seeking a beginner's guide to Anglicanism, which any more than about a minute on the Anglican Mainstream webiste would have told you was not what they do...?

14 June 2013 at 13:01  
Blogger Darter Noster said...

Manfarang and Harry-ca-Nab,

Aren't you both rather proving the point, from different ends, that English or British national identity is nothing to do with DNA?

There are plenty of people whose ancestral DNA is entirely from the Indian subcontinent, or Africa, or anywhere else, who nevertheless take pride in English or British identity. The point at stake here is more about the view of some people that any assertion of pride in English identity is tantamount to racism, which is cobblers as those people prove.

Some mischievous people would say that doing a DNA test to prove Prince Harry's ancestry would have been more enlightening.

14 June 2013 at 13:24  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Darter Noster
There are still a lot of Anglo-Indians in the sub-continent and they take pride in their identity but they have been largely excluded from Britain.

14 June 2013 at 14:33  
Blogger Darter Noster said...

Excluded in what way? If there is one thing Britain cannot be accused of it is of (physically) excluding people from the Indian subcontinent, whatever their backgrounds. Have you ever been to Birmingham, Bradford or Whitechapel?

We may have refused to treat Anglo-Indians as 'Anglo' when we pulled out of India, but I'd like to think that most of us have different attitudes to race and identity now than we did 70 years ago.

14 June 2013 at 15:16  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Darter Noster
I grew up with Anglo-Indians but those families came to Britain shortly after Indian Indepedence.
In later years Anglo-Indians found it very difficult to get visas to migrate to Britain.
Yes it does seem strange that Christians and English speakers have been excluded (About half of the Anglo-Indians are Cstholic) while those from Pakistan were encouraged.

14 June 2013 at 15:47  
Blogger Darter Noster said...

Hmmm, that is odd.

I mean, I can imagine Anglo-Indians being treated as Indians, for immigration purposes, but being treated less favourably than other Indians is very strange.

14 June 2013 at 16:03  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Bob, this idea about the superiority of the Eastern way and assumptions about high-fallutin' peaceful thinking begs the question whether youve been to Asia or spent time with unacculturated Asians. I see quite a bit of unrestrained and nearly religious attachment to crass materialism, strict authoritarianism, mysoginy, indifference to poverty, suffering and violence all amidst a network of powerful prejudices and superstitions. The

The Buddhism you're presenting here appears to be the old 19th century Western Christian Sunday parlour pastiche based on a selection of fuzzies from Eastern doctrines and a hefty dollop of wishful thinking. Kind of like what passes for Chinese food nowadays; sweet and tasty, but mostly created for the Western palate...and a deep purse. Nothing wrong with that in our free society with its healthy spirit of competitive enyrtprise, but it would be more authentic if Western Buddhists fessed up to creating a new religion, loosely and kinda sorta based on Buddhism, but with a good dose of Christian ethical idealism for flavour and to present an illusion of age and illusion ofhHGv authenticity. It's ok, there is nothing wrong in importing and improving few good ideas; all religions are syncretistic to some degree. Even mine. People can't help being people, most of them. Only perfect, inestimably wise and intellectually elevated sages like myself float...in a full lotus position 5,eyes peering into invisible realms, with a blindingly bright auras a golden airs... high above the rest of all the folks here. I am Avi, hear my name and tremble.

14 June 2013 at 16:35  
Blogger The PrangWizard of England said...

I live in Wessex and I like the flag. I live in England and I like that flag and I want to see them both flown often. So there!

14 June 2013 at 19:47  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

Darter Noster

"Aren't you both rather proving the point, from different ends, that English or British national identity is nothing to do with DNA?"

It is a lot to do with DNA as most of us can trace our DNA back to the original inhabitants of these islands and most of the rest to near neighbouring countries. We share the common racial heritage of the indigenous peoples of North Western Europe.

It is great that some non Northern European immigrants cherish English or British culture. That doesn't make them English or British in anything other than a civic way.

I lived in France for 10 years. I love French culture, paid my taxes, lived the way of life and adore the French people.

But in itself that didn't make me French albeit, in a racial sense, it was obvious that I shared a common heritage with the native Bretons from the North West who associate genetically and culturally with our British ancestors.

We need to distinguish between cultural and racial identity.

We can share a common culture across racial lines but let us not forget who we are and where we came from - esp. the English as we have been subjected to a great deal of propaganda aimed at destroying our common identity whilst new arrivals have positively been encouraged to celebrate theirs for the ongoing multicultural experiment.

15 June 2013 at 13:22  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Avi
"I see quite a bit of unrestrained and nearly religious attachment to crass materialism, strict authoritarianism, mysoginy, indifference to poverty, suffering and violence all amidst a network of powerful prejudices and superstitions."
That is very true of the West-an example of the strict authoritarianism was Franco.Given the crisis in Spain the likes of him are set to return.
In the East religion is not seen as something that is exclusive of other beliefs.
Is Thailand animist with a Buddhist overlay or folk Buddhist with an admixture of animist beliefs?
In China the mix was/is Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism.The food there is authentic Chinese(but of course these days there is McDonalds and a growing number with diabetes) and I am glad to say a long tradition of vegetarian food.
In SE Asia everyday Buddhism strongly involves ritual and ceremony but "pure" Buddhism can be found in the study of Pali texts and in the teachings of venerable monks.

Darter
A possible explanation maybe that a lot of the immigrants fom the sub-continent were recruited as cheap labour whereas the Anglo-Indians had higher aspirations.

15 June 2013 at 13:33  
Blogger Darter Noster said...

Harry-ca-Nab,

"It is a lot to do with DNA as most of us can trace our DNA back to the original inhabitants of these islands."

Which original inhabitants would they be Harry? The Celts? Oops, they came from Europe. The Romans? Oops, they came from anywhere from Syria and North Africa to Northern France and Spain. The Saxons? Germany and Denmark. The Vikings? Scandinavia. The Normans? Scandinavia via France. The Hugeunots? France. Not to mention the miscellaneous others that have trickled in throughout history.

Or are you seriously trying to tell me that you and most of the rest of the population are directly descended from the Beaker people, having never bred with immigrants at any point in 4,000 years?

I can fully take a point about wanting to preserve and take pride in English culture and heritage, I do not dispute that in recent years the pendulum has swung too far towards recent immigrants, and that the pace of immigration has been far too quick.

But trying to impose genetic limits on who is and who isn't, or indeed ever can be, "properly" English is both historically ridiculous and counterproductive. 150 years ago Britons were up in arms about the huge swathes of Eastern Europeans, many Jews, settling in Britain's industrial cities. Today, their descendents have integrated to the point where they are English through and through, and their funny foreign food, like fish fried in batter, is thought of as quintessentially English.

A mongrel nation? Damn right: mongrels are smarter, faster, healthier and longer-lived than pedigrees obsessed with false notions of genetic purity for its own sake.

15 June 2013 at 15:37  
Blogger non mouse said...

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16 June 2013 at 09:51  
Blogger non mouse said...

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16 June 2013 at 10:06  
Blogger non mouse said...

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16 June 2013 at 10:14  
Blogger Richard Watterson said...

Darter Noster

I didn't say Anglican Mainstream had been my first port of call.


Aston your last para. no, you'd be wrong.

16 June 2013 at 10:19  
Blogger Richard Watterson said...

As to... your last para. "predictive" text

16 June 2013 at 10:20  
Blogger non mouse said...

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16 June 2013 at 10:24  
Blogger non mouse said...

Time was when we had a sophisticated and intelligent approach to our own nationalist quirks and loyalties! If Your Grace will permit, Flanders and Swann show how it's done, here.

16 June 2013 at 11:14  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Coating fish with batter was an effective way of stopping them going off in the days of limited refrigeration. One wonders if Jews discovered this, or merely latched onto a profitable enterprise, to wit, serving the cooked product.

Yum !


16 June 2013 at 12:23  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Yep, there's nothing like fish n' chips and other Kosher Jewish dishes (:

16 June 2013 at 14:08  
Blogger Peter D said...

Ever tried cockels and mussels?

17 June 2013 at 02:37  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Peter,

'cockels and mussels'

I don't know if you know, but Jews are not allowed to eat shell fish, so it is a no from me! (incidentally, an Orthodox Jew should take not eating shellfish as seriously as not having gay sex... I know, I thought that would upset you!).

17 June 2013 at 21:35  
Blogger Peter D said...

Hannah

Ummmm ... did I know or did I not?

17 June 2013 at 23:44  
Blogger Peter D said...

Ps

So presumably sex with a shell fish would be even worse; especially if one consumed the creature after consummating the relationship.

17 June 2013 at 23:46  

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