Friday, June 07, 2013

"There is a problem within Roman Catholicism.."

“There is a problem within Roman Catholicism – from the adherents of an ideology which is a strain within Roman Catholicism… We have to put it on the table and be honest about it. Of course there are Muslim extremists and Jewish, Buddhist and Hindu ones. But I am afraid this strain is not the province of a few extremists. It has at its heart a view about religion and about the interaction between religion and politics that is not compatible with pluralistic, liberal, open-minded societies.”
There are Roman Catholic extremists and terrorists (denied, of course). Is it offensive to say so? Is it prejudiced, or bigoted? Then consider how Muslims might justifiably respond to Tony Blair's recent assertion:
“There is a problem within Islam – from the adherents of an ideology which is a strain within Islam… We have to put it on the table and be honest about it. Of course there are Christian extremists and Jewish, Buddhist and Hindu ones. But I am afraid this strain is not the province of a few extremists. It has at its heart a view about religion and about the interaction between religion and politics that is not compatible with pluralistic, liberal, open-minded societies.”
Of course, Roman Catholics will leap to the defence of their religion, insisting that IRA terrorism is not inspired by Roman Catholicism, and that Jesus never exhorted his followers to behead infidels and apostates, and that the Catechism repudiates the actions and activities of people like Gerry Adams. And others may counter respond that we're not talking about Jesus, but the Roman Catholic Church, which is most certainly stained with the blood of thousands (in recent history, too - don't forget we're talking about a 'strain'). According to Professor Richard Dawkins, it is 'surely up there among the leaders' of those which contend for the title of 'greatest force for evil in the world'. And he's not alone: the criticisms are legion (even The Telegraph has chipped in).

But Muslims repudiate utterly that the 'strain' to which Tony Blair refers has anything to do with Islam. Some (naturally) call Blair 'Islamophobic', which is no different to calling those who highlight the religio-political agendas of Roman Catholicism 'bigot' or 'conspiracy theorist' - all such terms are designed simply to isolate the speaker and silence debate.

There is no profound point to be made here: it is simply an observation. Blair, a convert to Rome, is happy to tarnish spiritual Islam with an unpalatable political strain. Motes and beams; motes and beams. But that's bigotry, of course.

171 Comments:

Blogger Bob said...

We live in a globalised world. For good or ill, Islam (and other religions) are our neighbours so we're all going to have to learn to get along. I think one of the best ways to do that is to concentrate on our similarities instead of our differences, and to avoid inflammatory rhetoric and apocalyptic pronouncements wherever possible.

Sometimes the comments section on this blog can be an echo chamber where from time to time His Grace's communicants will work themselves up into a frenzy of self-righteousness, but doing so isn't good for the body or the soul. Remember, anger is like grasping onto a hot coal, and will only burn you. Let us practise the virtues of compassion and forgiveness.

There. The future's looking brighter already isn't it?

:)

Peace.

7 June 2013 at 10:24  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Dear Bob

The world is now smaller than we think, indeed.

Islam is NOT our regional neighbour, thankfully and to learn to get on is NOT our problem but THEIRS. They are not persecuted in our tolerant country as our fellow christians are in theirs and you know its bad when the buddhists have said they have had enough of Islam in their countries!

"frenzy of self-righteousness" surely you meant to say 'bigoted slurring' as is the norm when the tolerant disagree with tolerant free speech and opinion.

" Let us practice the virtues of compassion and forgiveness." Indeed but doesn't that need to be qualified because we have shown compassion by letting them become citizens here away from 'supposed' persecution BY THEIR OWN' and if the 'moderate Muslims' have done nothing reprehensible what is there to forgive. However, if they have complied with the extremist elements by covering it up, because 'these are our brothers, not kaffirs' then they must take responsibility and ask for OUR forgiveness for betraying our compassion for them.

"There. The future's looking brighter already isn't it?"
The future is looking distinctly overcast and with further trouble looming from the east, my lad.

Blofeld

7 June 2013 at 10:40  
Blogger Nicolas Doye said...

Anglicanism can not have extremists as that would involve falling off the fence.

7 June 2013 at 10:43  
Blogger Nick said...

To Tony Blairs list of extremists I would add "Atheists". They are not always the cuddly philanthropic people they like us to think they are. In fact, I would say that with the exception of Islam, not many atrocities nowadays are committed solely on the basis of religious beliefs. There always seems to be a more immediate motive such as politics, ideology, power, pride, history, greed, ignorance, etc...

Just someone may wear the badge of one religion or the other does not mean they are true believers, nor does it mean that their actions are prescribed by their religion

7 June 2013 at 10:52  
Blogger Bob said...

@Blofeld (and Tiddles)

To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Perspective is everything. Let me share with you a story from the Buddhist tradition:

The situation we always live in is like that of the wise Chinese farmer whose horse ran off. When his neighbour came to console him the farmer said "Who knows what's good or bad?" When his horse returned the next day with a herd of horses following her, the foolish neighbour came to congratulate him on his good fortune. "Who knows what's good or bad?" said the farmer. Then, when the farmer's son broke his leg trying to ride one of the new horses, the foolish neighbour came to console him again. "Who knows what's good or bad?" said the wise farmer. When the army passed through, conscripting men for war, they passed over the farmer's son because of his broken leg. When the foolish man came to congratulate the farmer that his son would be spared, again the wise farmer said "Who knows what's good or bad?"

You're welcome ;)

Peace.

7 June 2013 at 10:54  
Blogger William Lewis said...

Bob

"To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail"

As your story demonstrates!

"Perspective is everything."

Indeed, if you cannot distinguish between good and bad, then perspective is all you have.

Peace, or as someone once put it:

"Turn off your mind, relax and float downstream. It is not dying. It is not dying." - It might as well be.

;)

7 June 2013 at 11:18  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Nick: "To Tony Blairs list of extremists I would add "Atheists". They are not always the cuddly philanthropic people they like us to think they are."

I'm lovely.

More to the point, I'm amenable to rational arguments unlike the extreme religionist who deals in absolutes.

7 June 2013 at 11:21  
Blogger Corrigan said...

What the Hell was that all about? Is Cranmer taking a dig at us or the Muslims? Does he distinguish between the two? Was it an example of the muscular Protestant Christianity we hear so much about? Or of the Anglican sense of humour we hear so little about? He does realize, doesn't he, that Gubuwire is a humourous website? Or has he finally lost the plot?

7 June 2013 at 11:26  
Blogger Corrigan said...

I'm amenable to rational arguments unlike the extreme religionist who deals in absolutes.

No, you're not. Yes, I know you think you are, but you're not. Trust me. If you doubt that, consider your definition of "extreme religionist". It's all of us, isn't it?

7 June 2013 at 11:28  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

I think we all have our absolutes, religionists, extreme or not, as well as atheist liberals of the John Stuart Mill school.

7 June 2013 at 11:36  
Blogger Nick said...

DanJ0

If rationalism is the opposite of absolutism then how can it be rational? If "Big Bang" and Evolution are rational deductions then to those who believe in them they are absolutes. Perhaps they aren't absolutes after all? If they are not (and even scientists are starting to doubt Big Bang) then the process of deduction was not rational.

7 June 2013 at 11:37  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Bob,

Yeah, perhaps you can tell your message of peace to Hamas and Hezbollah or perhaps in your view they are already peaceful, but they are showing that in their different cultural context?.

I mean, look at the evidence- everyday my Israeli relatives get sweet messages of peace from the religion of peace and their friendly neighbours in Gaza. Often by way of a couple of hundred rockets and missiles...

Now I am sure that lobbing off missiles is a clearly a metaphor for peace & is all oozing love and peace no doubt, as it is just their way of being peaceful, which we have to take on the chin and accept as a key difference?

7 June 2013 at 11:43  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Is this article a dig at Blair, or what ? I'm mystified. What is the point of it ?
My readings indicate that Sharia recognizes two classes of people, 1st Class, believers, 2nd Class. everyone else. Then there's the man/woman system too. . This would not matter if it were purely theological but if it is applied in everyday life you have a problem. Widdecombe was right, obviously. A country can have only ONE system of law operating within it. Rowan Williams is wrong, very wrong.

7 June 2013 at 11:44  
Blogger Jim McLean said...

I'm confused...if His Grace would care to illustrate the extremism he attributes to Catholicism, or which he believes is attributed to Catholicism - or Christianity in general.

And would he also care to comment on how this compares to Islamic extremism?

7 June 2013 at 11:47  
Blogger Bob said...

@David Kavanagh

What we think, we become. For this reason it is important to maintain positivity. We can't force others to do this, but we can and should do it for ourselves. You're focusing on the wrong thing - only love can conquer hatred and bitterness. What you should be asking is, "how can I live a better life, for myself and for others?"

:)

Peace.

7 June 2013 at 11:52  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Blair’s observation about Islam combining religion and politics is supported by the apostate Wafa Sultan, to whom Islam is ‘a political ideology that is packaged as a religious ideology’, and by Discover Islam:

Islam is a religion, but not in the western meaning of religion. The western connotation of the term ‘religion’ is something between the believer and God. Islam is a religion that organizes all aspects of life on both the individual and national levels … how to govern, the laws of war and peace, when to go to war, when to make peace … Islam is a complete code of life.

7 June 2013 at 12:11  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Your Grace

Old Ernst is hoping for great things of this post..possibly in the region of 250 comments but none addressing the content of the post as above, anything but. * Humungous chortling*

E S Blofeld

7 June 2013 at 12:12  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hooray, Ernsty and his Tiddles are back posting! Hope you are OK?

7 June 2013 at 12:22  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

7 June 2013 at 12:42  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Bob says (11:52) what we think we become.

Let's think we're all lottery winners, and hope that his prognosis is accurate.

7 June 2013 at 12:43  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

7 June 2013 at 12:44  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Bob,

If that 'love' isn't returned you end up dead, which is the situation David describes, as it isn't suburban middle class england we're talking about here.

If the Israelis ended up dead, I'd guess you'd want to organize a group hug with the Jihadists who did it, as there is no point in crying over spilt milk and they need love to realize the wicked error their ways etc..

7 June 2013 at 12:45  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Apparantly, there's no problem about organizing a group hug with the Israelis when the Jihadis end up dead.

7 June 2013 at 12:48  
Blogger richardhj said...

You quote Dorkins as saying the Catholic Church is evil.

If I wasn't already a member, I would be joining this very afternoon.


It would appear to me that the purpose of the article is to suggest that every organisation has its extremists and that Blair is wrong to single out Muslims. Of course he has failed to name any Catholic extremists, but attacking Catholics would on this blog of course attract the greatest outcry.

Admittedly I am struggling to name any Anglican extremists. But then, I am also struggling to know what an Anglican extremist would believe.

7 June 2013 at 12:52  
Blogger Bob said...

Hi Hannah,

Consider the example of the recent EDL protests that were defused when the Muslim community offered the protesters a cup of tea. They could have responded instead with a counter-protest, or even violence, but they chose the righteous path. Of course suburban England is different from the situation David mentioned, but the underlying principle is the same - love conquers hatred every time.

"If you want to make peace, don't talk to your friends, talk to your enemies". -Desmond Tutu

:)

Peace.

7 June 2013 at 12:56  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Bob,

I see what you mean, but alas things don't work like that in the real world. True a bit of self reflection is OK from time to time, but if others around you are trying to kill you, then an internal makeover is not exactly going to be the top of the priority list.

7 June 2013 at 12:57  
Blogger Youthpasta said...

I'm with Ernst on this.
Love how the content has been distorted already by some and the final comment completely ignored!

"There is no profound point to be made here: it is simply an observation"

7 June 2013 at 12:58  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Corrigan,

Quite right. A group hug over the death of a terrorist is quite inappropriate.

Forgive me, then, whilst I compose myself, get a box of tissues and dab my moist tearful eyes, mourning the loss of a suicide bomber/terrorist and religious fanatic...

7 June 2013 at 13:00  
Blogger Jay Bee said...

Extremist threats ebb and flow. What was a threat in the past is superceded in the present and we fear for the future.

Recent sectarian strife between Catholics and Protestants was localised. A Republican v Unionist struggle about Northern Ireland. Anyway, it doesn't seem likely that militant Catholics will start bombing us back to Rome.

Islamic extremism is causing havoc in many parts of the world and its track record of intolerance towards other beliefs is causing suspicion and tension between communities everywhere else.

It used to be said that the Antichrist would be either the Pope or the Turk. One day the world will find out.

7 June 2013 at 13:03  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Youthpasta,

I would just like to add to yours and Ernsty's comments in full agreement. It is totally outrageous that people are posting off topic, going off onto related tangents or not about the thread. In fact, I think we could have a thread devoted to a thread about not being totally on topic and expressing our upset at this fact, whilst at the same time congratulating one another on this fact...

PS- What's your view on Antidisestablishmentarianism in the context of gay marriage and women vicars?

7 June 2013 at 13:04  
Blogger Bob said...

@David, 12:57

"Be the change you wish to see in the world".

:)

Peace.

7 June 2013 at 13:08  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Bob,

If there was someone to actually talk to in the middle east peace process then that would be start. Alas when your opponents have a fanatical zeal and a charter which explicitly states you want to kill all Jews in Israel, it isn't promising.

I think when Israel gave Gaza back and evicted the Jewish population from there, is a point in question. Rather than trying to govern this new territory and, say, turn it into a tax haven, all they did was loot the place to build rockets and then decided to lob them over the border...

7 June 2013 at 13:10  
Blogger Bob said...

@ David Kavanagh, 13:10

What are you on about - Teflon Tone's on the case!

But seriously, there will always be people who aren't interested in making peace. This is why it's more important than ever to avoid retaliation and respond with love and kindness. Every journey starts with a single step.

:)

Peace.

7 June 2013 at 13:20  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Youthpasta

Easier than normal to go off topic this time. What IS the topic?

I, for one, haven't a clue what this thread is actually about.

7 June 2013 at 13:23  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Bob,

OK, I appreciate your laid back approach to life...

This conversation reminds me of a time I went to San Fran in the 1980's, the last bastion of hippydom, where it was all about 'peace and harmony'(without, of course, any Acapulco gold).

So indeed, Peace man.

Or as we say in Judaism 'Shalom'.

7 June 2013 at 13:28  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

'Every journey starts with a single step.'

Wasn't that the tag line to Star Wars Episode I 'The Phantom Menace'?

7 June 2013 at 13:34  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Explorer,

I have to admit I am not sure what the topic is, so I'll try and guess :

Could be an observation that if ALL religions have the extremes, then it is a bit hypocritical of Blair, as a Catholic, to berate Islam for being 'more extreme' than others?

Although of course Blair is one to talk, given it was his government was the one that brought in all the 'religious hate crime' laws?

7 June 2013 at 13:36  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Ok, David. On a point of interest, when Israeli warplanes bomb Arab towns, do the bombs only fall on "terrorists" or do they become "terrorists" after the bombs fall on them?

7 June 2013 at 13:40  
Blogger Thomas Wood said...

@Bob
Being laid back is not an option, precisely because there are evil people. An organized, determined minority will always triumph against an apathetic majority.

Your "all you need is love" attitude represents the quintessential, decadent treachery of our way of life which is holding the door wide open to the Barbarian hordes as we speak.

Thanks to you and your kind, we are likely to be swamped with the foul depravities of Islam, and our society completely atomized. Your weakness emboldens them, and the blood of those as yet unborn is on your hands.

7 June 2013 at 13:45  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Corrigan wrote:

Apparantly, there's no problem about organizing a group hug with the Israelis when the Jihadis end up dead.

We should all remember that Corrigan's preferred and openly-stated solution to the problem of 'Palestine' is for all the Jews to leave. Feet first or head first. It makes no difference to him.

carl

7 June 2013 at 13:45  
Blogger Youthpasta said...

Umm, when did I say anything about this thread going off topic?
My only comment, which I believe is similar to that of Ernst earlier on, is that people have taken some of what Cranmer has written and put it in a context of their own creation and then taken aim with both barrels. I believe that, if ever, the term "straw man" is appropriate here (regardless of how much I hate the term) as the pot shots being taken are not at anything His Grace has said, but what they have misconstrued (whether deliberately or not) His Grace to have said.

As I quoted before:
"There is no profound point to be made here: it is simply an observation"

7 June 2013 at 13:50  
Blogger Bob said...

@ Thomas Wood

To be kind and loving is not a weakness. Indeed it is often difficult to turn the other cheek. We should bear in mind that in forgiveness and compassion lies the world's true strength.

:)

Peace.

7 June 2013 at 13:55  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Bob

"If you want to make peace, don't talk to your friends, talk to your enemies".

My father didn't talk to German soldoers in 1944. He killed them. Should he have done otherwise?

carl

7 June 2013 at 14:00  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Corrigan,

As I'm sure you are aware, the Jihadists launch missiles all the time at Israel and her civilian population. Given that it is the first job of any state to protect her citizens, Israel has every right to respond as appropriate, including lethal force. I'm sure you'd feel the same if terrorists operating from Wales started to bomb Dublin with missiles all the time.

I think that the difference is that the IDF does not deliberately seek to target civilians (unlike the terrorists or indeed regimes such as, um, Syria).

Alas because the terrorists operate from within civilian centres, civilians could unfortunately be caught up in this crossfire. That is the sad reality of war and the consequence of the Jihadists actions who proclaim themselves to be 'the liberators of Palastine'.

7 June 2013 at 14:01  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Bob,

Assuming you are coming from a pacifist viewpoint, don't forget to say thank you to those who have, when it has been necessary in the past, to take up arms to defend this country in times of peril and war.

We've just celebrated the anniversary of D-Day. Perhaps Churchill should have instead done what the appeasers wanted, done an Ireland and remained neutral, whilst the rest of the world went to hell?

7 June 2013 at 14:10  
Blogger The Explorer said...

David K/Youthpasta

David. Thank you; that does sort of clarify it.

YP. Sorry that I misunderstood you.
Initial incomprehension led to more.

I have nothing to contribute to this particular thread; hopefully encounter you both on another.

Regards.

7 June 2013 at 14:11  
Blogger bluedog said...

His Grace reports, '“There is a problem within Roman Catholicism'

Not 'alf there ain't.

Some Australian heretics (all Catholic bishops) are recommending a raft of reform: http://voicefaithful.wordpress.com/2013/06/05/three-australian-catholic-bishops-call-for-end-to-clergy-sexual-abuse-of-children-for-good/

And the key recommendations? An end to celibacy, married clergy and the ordination of women.

Enjoy!

7 June 2013 at 14:13  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

And the key recommendations? An end to celibacy, married clergy and the ordination of women.

An "interesting" recommendation since most of the abusers by far were homosexual men.

carl

7 June 2013 at 14:17  
Blogger Nick said...

David kavanagh

"..terrorists operating from Wales .."

I'm English, but I live in Wales, and I assure everyone in England we don't have terrorists here. If we did, they probably wouldn't find enough time off from the rugby and the pubs to do anything harmful to the English

7 June 2013 at 14:18  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Nick,

I'm actually married to a Welsh woman...'Twas an example for our Corrigan to understand the feelings of Israelis.

7 June 2013 at 14:20  
Blogger Bob said...

@Carl, @David Kavanagh

It isn't wrong to defend one's country from direct attack. However it is wrong to harbour hatred for others, and to rationalise that hatred as some contributors to this thread have done. Nothing is ever black and white - or should I say brown and white. An angry and fearful mind can never be at peace.

:)

Peace.

7 June 2013 at 14:29  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Syria is in desperate need of a peacemaker, Bob. Muster your smiliest smiley faces and head out there asap. Vanquished by your message of love, fluffy kittens and kindness, the guns will fall silent.

7 June 2013 at 14:30  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Thanks for clearing that up, David. I'm sure Israelis cry themselves to sleep at night when they hear of a dead Arab.

7 June 2013 at 14:42  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Corrigan,

Alas, that is what happens when you are trying to deal with Jihadists extremists...

7 June 2013 at 14:44  
Blogger David Hussell said...

In my silence I've been working on the question from Richardj , as to what an Anglican extremist would be like. Well that's quite a tough one, and the best I can come up with is a guy or gal, who just can't cope without at least one traditional Evensong service every day, as a liturgical fix. Sorry, I know it's not very scary is it , so I'll keep thinking.......there must be something scarier ! Got iT, EUREKA ! Threatening to bring Rowan Williams, the Welsh Bard , round for tea and, wait for it, conversation !

7 June 2013 at 14:47  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Bob,

Exactly. Israel is defending herself in a war. No, I don't have hate here and I'm not twisting any logic. The logic and facts don't need to be as they are as obvious as Avi Barzel's beard.

7 June 2013 at 14:48  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

David Hussell,

I never really get the split personality of our Roman friends here when it comes to the Anglican Church. On the one hand it is decried as being a monster, a pawn of the state, having stolen their churches property and them being under the protestant jackboot, but in the same breath the C of E isn't the rock or the true Church or whatever, as it is a wishy -wash liberal type which isn't as firm or as ruthless as Rome (although taking property was?).

As much as the C of E is very liberal, theologically, I'd rather have that as a state church than some militant version of the inquisition poking into things or as Corrigan smugly said yesterday 'before Vatican II'. Yessss, a good plan.

Alas it won't work as I just don't think the average English chap takes religion too seriously. They like it for weddings, funerals and Christmas carols and that's about it, rather than being something which sets the standard for their lives. The C of E is perfect, therefore,for its customer base.

7 June 2013 at 14:57  
Blogger Bob said...

@David Kavanagh

Israel and Palestine are both aggressors in an endless tit-for-tat. It is ego and pride that keeps both sides from reaching peace. As the Buddha says, "however many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act upon them?"

Love is all you need guys.

Peace.

7 June 2013 at 14:57  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Bob,

True. If only we followed the teaching of Bhudda. That'll solve everything. Unless you are in Sri Lanka or Burma.

7 June 2013 at 15:05  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi David,

Didn't you just hint at what the article was getting at?

7 June 2013 at 15:19  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Bob,

'All you need is love'. And someone willing to want to have peace, which isn't at the expense of expelling all Jews from Israel... I won't hold my breath for too long.

7 June 2013 at 15:20  
Blogger David Hussell said...

David Kavanagh,
We shall never know how seriously your average English chap took their religion centuries ago, but what you say does have a ring of authenticity about it now. Frowning on harmful (to others) extremism is generally held to be a good thing, and probably has been for a long time now. However personally speaking I think that the Anglican Church could do with more ardour. The orthodox ones are still there, but the liberals have dominated for quite a while. However things will not stay the same for ever, as the new, growing, burgeoning even, churches stuffed full of the young are all seriously evangelical. So though I am in a small minority for my age group, the future looks as if it may well be for the seriously committed, and very much evangelical. This is not surprising, as to be a Christian now, of any denomination, is so counter cultural you have to be keen and serious. Bring it on I say.

7 June 2013 at 15:31  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Dear All

It appears crystal clear what HG is referring to but un(knowingly) denied by RC's commenting here by the use of Blair the Traitor in the post inferring to us his biased opinions on what confers as extremism/terrorism and his hilarious double standards by not declaring at the time his interests in Roman Catholicism (Wheres Panorama or Telegraph when you need a decent 'sting'....perhaps a register of foreign interests might have helped in more ways than one.

In 2005 he stated here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4718223.stm his opinion that the IRA was not like that 'strain' of Islam called Al Qaeda which makes for us the case that Extremism is OK for some but not for others ("I don't think you can compare the political demands of republicanism with the political demands of this terrorist ideology we're facing now." ).
Change the 'fight to establish republicanism from The Head of Anglicanism and her government' etc, for 'fight to establish Islamism against west colonialism and what is the real difference.

That Romanism via the IRA banner, defied the rule of the state of the sovereign as the head of the people they took their bloodthirsty fight against NI or mainland UK, her government and peoples, only highlights what the Religious/Political struggle was all about and anything else is a denial of history.

Think HG is pointing to Blair's hypocrisy in "creating double standards between terrorists".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/mar/17/northernireland.peaceprocess1

I had to listen to a Sinn Féin spokesman on BBC Question time state the EDL were extremists that had to be fought...Has EDL murdered, bombed or kneecapped innocent people and demanded political recognition by whatever means necessary. Oh the bitter irony of life in the UK today.

Blofeld.

Ps

We now have to look at the faces of Adams and MCGuiness on our TV screens declaring who won that war on terrorism.

7 June 2013 at 15:33  
Blogger A.K.A. Damo Mackerel said...

The greatest evil of all is statism.

7 June 2013 at 15:40  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Which reminds me ...

A chap goes to a Roman Catholic church for the first time, and later is asked what he thought of the service. "Very odd," he replied. "The only time I heard the name of Jesus Christ was when the caretaker fell down the stairs." ;-) *HUZZAH*

Ernst

7 June 2013 at 15:40  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Hannah

Thank you, my dear.

The back is a tad better but can only do short spells at PC.

Ernst

ps

I've got a friend who's suddenly fallen in love with two school bags. He's declared himself a Bisatchel. ;-O

7 June 2013 at 17:13  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

7 June 2013 at 17:18  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Ernsty,

LOL! Now if you are feeling parched and they let you have it, you might find a coke bottle 'share a coke with Hannah'. Although I haven't seen one which says 'share a coke with Mohammed' yet. Wonder why?

7 June 2013 at 17:19  
Blogger Bob said...

@Hannah,

Mohammed is more of a Dr. Pepper kind of guy.

Peace.

7 June 2013 at 17:24  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

richardhj asked

"But then, I am also struggling to know what an Anglican extremist would believe."

How do you identify an Anglican extremist group?

They burn a question mark on your lawn whilst offering tea and toasted marshmallows to onlookers!

Blofeld, my boy.

7 June 2013 at 17:30  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Hannah,

We could help David Hussell in his Ministry, by floating the idea of 'sharing a coke with Jesus', in the same way that the C of E did a 'Che Jesus' a couple of years ago- and make it free of course. But is it trendy enough?

Perhaps we could do one for Judaism 'share a coke with the Torah'. In brackets and small words is this Kosher- sod it, it's free!!

7 June 2013 at 17:42  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

David Hussell,

I guess this pertains more to the thread below, but the question is: what kind of C of E (established) Church do you want?

One which is in line with your younger Evangelical/Orthodox Christianity or a reflection of society as a national church?

I think that is the problem with the C of E, because as you say to be Christian or religious is counter cultural... a dilemma indeed.

Personally I do think the idea of a 'national church' does mean it will be tempted to bend towards popular zietgiest, even if the regular devout don't like it- so do you follow your belief or what the politicians tell you? Ever the rub.

Perhaps not having an established Church will do you folks good? Let the liberals wither on the vine and the Orthodox be Orthodox? That's better surely than the constant compromise and the bailing out of the liberal sections with your orthodox money? (as you say the orthodox have bigger congregations and therefore, by assumption the bigger purse strings).

America is far more 'religious' in terms of church attendance and it does not have an established church.

7 June 2013 at 17:47  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Bob,

Well Shabbat Shalom (the peace of the Sabbath) to you and everyone else here. See you sunday!

7 June 2013 at 17:48  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Well, Archbishop, allow the Inspector to remind you that you cannot have a meaningful comparison between Islam and Roman Catholicism without taking into account race. One finds that the peoples who are Roman Catholics are fairly easy going types. For them, their religion is part of their identity. And as their identity is inherently of a friendly nature, their religion causes no one else any harm.

Not so with most, though not all of Islam. Here, the lesser achieving peoples that gladly embrace the poison view their religion as their master. They seem incapable of independent thought without running it past that devilish faith. A faith that has a lot to say about non muslims. Hence, we have bombing muslims, suicide bombing muslims, muslims who rape or kill infidel children, muslims who even kill their own family. We have to ask ourselves, is it Islam who demands your unruly daughter’s death, or your own racial makeup.

The Northern Irish situation is a red herring. Rather simple situation of an immigrant people taking over a part of the island and running it for their benefit at the expense of the indigenous population. Does anybody not see the irony ? England in 100 years time. An immigrant people take over a part of the island and run it for their benefit at the expense of the indigenous population. Then of course, the English who fight back will be celebrated freedom fighters in the Robin Hood / Nelson Mandela style. Nothing at all like nasty Paddy the papist, a hundred years earlier…







7 June 2013 at 17:53  
Blogger Peter D said...

Surely the question is: whether within Catholic doctrine, and Christian Scripture, acts of violence against others is positively promoted - even demanded?

It appears that this is the case with the Koran; not so in the Christian Bible or in Catholic teaching.

7 June 2013 at 17:59  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...



The Inspector would like to take this opportunity to welcome Bob to this site. His far eastern hardly applicable philosophy and associated allied bullshit is a most refreshing text to read of a day. And he managed to get Blofeld going, which is absolutely priceless…

Here’s one for you, that man…

“There is none so blind as the smug fool who thinks he has all the answers and does not see the truth, or his pocket being picked, or his wife being raped, what !“

Toodlepip, old chap !





7 June 2013 at 18:00  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Inspector

I wasn't going to say anything else on this thread, but then I saw your change of appearance, and felt I should compliment you on it.

Since you've mentioned Bob, I have two theories about him.

1. He's Pat Condell, having fun with us.

2. He's one of those wibbly-wobbly men I remember from my childhood. Knock it over, and it would come back up smiling. (But without Bob's preachiness, which made it more fun)..

7 June 2013 at 18:16  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Dearest OIG and Peter D

Well lads, that took some time.

Thought you were doing some strange silent blog protest?. (HG wishes, eh)

Now that would be truly miraculous.

The silence was deafening while it lasted. *Sniggers*

Blowers

ps

Do RC's have some signal dispersed from HG Blog when the mention of things Romish pierce the blogosphere like a dog whistle to canines. *ppphhh*

7 June 2013 at 18:43  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Greetings Explorer. One is glad you appreciate the Inspector’s latest passport photo.

Our man seems to be a slippers and socks type, and not to be trusted bringing a cow to market lest he return with a handful of magic beans. Delightfully trusting fool that he is.

Rather splendid to find you still around Blowers. Must admit one spent 90 minutes trying to fathom out the offering today. Still none the wiser, you know.

What you need is Cressida walking over your back in her stilettos, while you whimper. Can picture it now...

pip pip, that reprobate...





7 June 2013 at 18:57  
Blogger ardenjm said...

So why on EARTH would Cranmer want to receive Communion in such a Church - is the question I find myself asking.

Again.

I didn't get a satisfactory answer the last time - just lofty verbal hand waving and outré disdain at being called to account.
So I doubt very much whether I'll get one this time.

But please, try and be consistent with your own views, Cranmer. There's only one of you, after all. It shouldn't be THAT complicated.
I mean, I know you take as your exemplar one of the founding heresiarchs of Anglicanism and that, like him, your head turns and turns about. But at least he, like the good Thomist moral theology he'd have been formed in would have followed his conscience and rejected the Catholic Church once and for all.
You, however, are the same person who writes this kind of stuff and then also sneak in to St Peter's and steal Holy Communion during a Mass which your hero would most certainly have held to be a "blasphemous" insult to Christ.

You're conflicted, me old china.
Get yourself a spiritual director and sort it out, for pity's sake.

7 June 2013 at 18:58  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...


A spiritual director?

Whom do you suggest? Is this a mandatory undertaking in Roman Catholicism?

Who is the Pope's spiritual director?

7 June 2013 at 19:05  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

Whilst not myself a fundamentalist nor an extremist, I find both tags unhelpful in discerning those strains of any religious or revelatory belief which cannot get on with its neighbour. It may seem obvious, but is infrequently acknowledged that the problem is belief in which VIOLENCE is tolerated as a proper expression. Few people have problems with non-violent strongly held beliefs e.g the Quakers, the Amish, and pacifist forms of Islam. Why this commonsense is often ignored is that it is frequently criticism by violent people themselves, which takes us neatly back to Tony Blair and the Iraq war.

7 June 2013 at 19:15  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Oh Lord. Listen up types. Cranmer went to St Peters to commune with our God. Let this Catholic tell the rest of you this, HE DOESN’T NEED YOUR PERMISSION TO DO THAT !

So he slipped into Catholic Club without being signed in by a member. Bring the damn book here and this man will do the honours. You do realise the Christ being a Jew would have a similar obstacle placed before him here today if he was to commune similar with God the Father ?


7 June 2013 at 19:21  
Blogger ardenjm said...

The Pope most certainly has a Spiritual Director - probably the same one as he had when he was a Cardinal. Every Pope will have had one. Though they can be called a Spiritual Father or a Father Confessor or whatever.

And, Inspector General - you've missed the point (again). My question wasn't "Where is Cranmer's membership card" but how ODD to take Communion in a Church he is so manifestly conflicted about. Deeply, profoundly conflicted about.

7 June 2013 at 19:33  
Blogger ardenjm said...

ps
It's not mandatory - just wise.

7 June 2013 at 19:36  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


ardenjm. If Cranmer is so manifestly conflicted, then he has the intellect to work through it. Maybe Cranmer regrets the split from Rome. A split that may very well have been healed if Henry VIII had lived longer. One is quite sure middle ages Cranmer would have found a way to square that one with his conscience.

The Inspector was about to say you have no idea how the man made mechanics imposed upon a simple faith really irritates him – but then if you follow this site and you take notice of this man’s humble submissions, you will already know that...


7 June 2013 at 19:42  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Inspector,

'Paddy the papist'

LOL!

I must be 'Paddess the Jew' then (:

And my girlfriend reckons all the straight girls will like you with your improved photo. I'll add some extra prayers for you over the Kiddush wine tonight!

7 June 2013 at 19:44  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

ardenjm,

Bully for you. Cranmer would be welcome in one of our Synagogues even if he is not Jewish.

We like him (:

7 June 2013 at 19:45  
Blogger Peter D said...

ardenjm

Welcome back. One agrees, you do have some valid points.

Receiving Holy Communion knowing it was against Catholic Canon Law, whilst (presumably) internally rejecting the doctrine of transubstantiation and the sacrificial nature of the Mass. And to be harbouring not entirely positive views about the "religio-political agendas of Roman Catholicism" too. Indeed, basically rejecting the very Ecclesia one was feigning communion with.

'Tis a mystery!

7 June 2013 at 20:03  
Blogger Peter D said...

Inspector
" ... the man made mechanics imposed upon a simple faith"

You are becoming a fine protestant. Len will be eagerly waiting the moment you are "born again".

Now if you're to use private judgement and develop this new faith, you really will need to read the Bible.

7 June 2013 at 20:12  
Blogger ardenjm said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

7 June 2013 at 20:15  
Blogger ardenjm said...

All I meant to say was that it's ODD for Cranmer to be writing this kind of thing and then go and do what he did in Rome. It's contradictory, conflicted behaviour.
Hold something in contempt and then participate in their most solemn action in one of their most sacred places...
Why would anyone want to do that?
It would make more sense if it was all being done ironically - Sacha Baron Cohen-like - but Cranmer's fans are quite convinced that he did so with sincerity.
This makes these kinds of posts doubly strange, then. A bit like a man hitting his Mother saying, "it's YOUR fault I'm doing this! It's YOUR fault!"

Which, of course, in a way, is exactly what the Protestant Reformation was doing: Children hitting their Mother.

7 June 2013 at 20:20  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Peter D, you might find it beneficial if you were to go into a church and prostrate yourself before God. Nothing like proving your thoughts when at ground level.

ardenjm. Are we possibly witnessing the start of Cranmer’s reconciliation with Roman Catholicism. A long difficult journey, but started ?


7 June 2013 at 20:52  
Blogger Owl said...

A very complex posting today plus some strange comments.

A couple of points:

1. Blair's conversion had more to do with his ambitions within the EU and very little to do with his convictions. We would gladly give him back.

2. The IRA were only one side of the coin. When condemning the IRA (or their politicians) you would also have to equally condemn the DUP, RUC, Paisley, B-Specials (depending on how far you want to go back) etc. We could also go back to the Black and Tans but what's the point!

3. Said Paisley, Adams and McGuiness did actually work together for a peace agreement. I, for one, did not think it would be possible but they proved me wrong.

4. The references in the article to the report from Gubuwire that Irish Catholic priests were leading members of the IRA (and that Gerry Adams is/was also a priest) gave me a good laugh. I am not sure how serious HG was about this, maybe he was just pulling our virtual legs.

5. The Irish form of catholicism is, in practice, not very Roman.

6. Irish Whiskey is not as good as the highland brew but our music is better.

7 June 2013 at 21:01  
Blogger ardenjm said...

Inspector:
Don't be naive.
Haven't you got it yet?
Cranmer thinks he's Catholic already.
And, more importantly, there are times - such as in this latest blog - when he doesn't believe the Roman Catholic Church remains very Catholic - at least, not in the "right" way - which, surprise surprise, is his own way.
And then there are times when he recognises that perhaps there are Catholics within the Catholic Church: and guess what! that happens when those Catholics agree with him! Amazing eh!

The Roman Catholic Church is most "Catholic" as far as Cranmer is concerned when it's being Cranmerian.

So he does what the hell he wants, where he wants and when he wants - as his experience in Rome proves.

It's called pride: thinking you're bigger than the whole and refusing to recognise that perhaps you can't include all of the goodness of the whole in your own limited part.

Spiritual Directors help you to detect it....

7 June 2013 at 21:16  
Blogger Peter D said...

Owl

"Irish Whiskey is not as good as the highland brew"

What treason is this?!

7 June 2013 at 21:22  
Blogger William Lewis said...

I must say I quite like the new Acting Inspector. He has something of the debonair about him.

Excellent comment at 19:21 Acting Inspector. You seem to be getting the hang of this inspecting lark. Carry on that er ... plastic, monocled thing.

toodles.

7 June 2013 at 21:23  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dive for cover lads, the Tans are around. The blighters machined gunned a Galway city pub in 1920, simply for the crime of having Gaelic sign writing. A few years before Al Capone and James Cagney did the same in Chicago.

Another case of the British being there first, what !

7 June 2013 at 21:29  
Blogger Peter D said...

Inspector said ...

"Peter D, you might find it beneficial if you were to go into a church and prostrate yourself before God."

My good man, why bother with a church - a mere human invention; a building. And prostrating oneself? Surely an unnecessary and terribly superstitious practice.

Come on, get with your new found protestant mind set.

7 June 2013 at 21:39  
Blogger Peter D said...

Inspector said ...

"Peter D, you might find it beneficial if you were to go into a church and prostrate yourself before God."

My good man, why bother with a church - a mere human invention; a building. And prostrating oneself? Surely an unnecessary and terribly superstitious practice.

Come on, get with your new found protestant mind set.

7 June 2013 at 21:39  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

Even the self admiring warmonger poppinjay Blair can in theory say something true. There is a violent strain within Islam. It's called Islam and it comes from the core teaching and example of Muhummad, as anyone who reads the Quran (as I have) can easily discover tor themselves.

Its such a pity Blair didn't realise this before he and Bush 'opened the gates of hell' (as the Saudi foreign minister warned them) by invading Iraq in 2003. Would the sunni versus shia bloodbath in Syria be occuring today but for that criminal insanity?

7 June 2013 at 21:57  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Peter D / ardnejm. What do you two think Roman Catholicism is all about if it is not in bringing people closer to their God. Does it matter a damn if Cranmer digs the soil with his foot on the right side of the spade ? So there are doctrinal differences between the Christian churches. We are talking of the CoE here, not Hottentot ancestor worship...


7 June 2013 at 22:12  
Blogger Albert said...

Nice touch to put the linked reference to child abuse in the Catholic Church in. How's the CofE doing on that one? Are you still refusing to suspend clerics reasonably accused of abuse (as you were I think as recently as last October)?

And while you're on the subject of violence, let us not forget that the greatest single act of religious violence was perpetrated by Good Queen Bess on behalf against Catholicism. Killing in one act more people than Mary did in the whole of her reign.

7 June 2013 at 22:22  
Blogger Albert said...

Religious violence in England, I mean.

7 June 2013 at 22:22  
Blogger bluedog said...

Inspector @ 17.53. Two things to remember, Wolf Tone was a Protestant and Gerry Adams is of Scottish (immigrant) descent, but Catholic. Of course there are many, many Irish who are of Nordic descent, as is also the case in western Scotland. Where do the Nordics fit in to the Romano-Celtic nirvana, or are they honorary proddies (sassenachs in Scottish Gaelic)?

The problem with Irish nationalism being defined as a Romano-Celtic phenomenon is that the Irish are by no means exclusively Celtic.

PS. This communicant once found himself standing next to Gerry Adams at a urinal. Got out with both kneecaps intact.

7 June 2013 at 22:28  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

...ah, the reverse of "no true Scotsman... " Alas, Israel doesn't bomb Arab towns. The politically oversensitized fools in the government insist on near total target certainty, difficult precision strikes and zero or low "collateral" damage... an unfortunate policy, easily taken advantage of by the baddies who hide behind civilians and one that endangers our own citizen soldiers and civilians. Good thing I'm not in charge, eh? I'd be responding with a hefty and sloppy artillery barrage roughly along the reverse trajectory of every Grad rocket out of Gaza.

7 June 2013 at 22:46  
Blogger Jay Bee said...

Bluedog

How did you manage to miss both his kneecaps?

7 June 2013 at 22:46  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Agreed Bluedog, the Inspector is not long back from his hereditary seat, Wexford. The Wexford coat of arms is interesting as it depicts 3 longboats burning. When the Vikings landed there in the 9th century to settle, they were not going back. And they burnt their own boats in Wexford bay to prove it. Now, the Vikings assimilated into the local society. There was no Viking kingdom at Wexford or any another sea front where they arrived, and they did do so in numbers up and down the east Irish coast, and also at Waterford.

So there you have it. The descendants of the Vikings with their blond(e) hair are there today. And they are Irish, and Catholic...


7 June 2013 at 22:48  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

"what you need is.... " Bwahahahaha.. oh, this hurts, tears, gasping for air... on this note, shabbat shalom everyone.

7 June 2013 at 22:55  
Blogger ardenjm said...

@Office Inspector
What do I think "Catholicism is all about if not bringing people closer to their God?"

Well, for starters it's about bringing them closer to God, not THEIR God.
And to get beyond your own subjective take on things, objective Truth is indispensable.
For sure, there are ways of expressing it - St Francis de Sales is right when he says, "A spoonful of honey attracts more flies than a barrel of vinegar" but St Thérèse of Lisieux is also right when she says we mustn't be complicit with people when they are deceiving themselves - because we lack courage or because we want to be "nice" or be liked.

Cranmer's post here is shoddy.
Not as shoddy as his actions in Rome - but shoddy all the same.
And more proof that not only he doesn't REALLY know what he thinks about the Catholic Church but that, being so conflicted, he doesn't seek to resolve it but wades right on in, depending on whatever it is that is affecting him that day:
Pope Francis nice - good.
Dominus Iesus nasty - bad.
Cranmer's états d'âme seem to become the measure of the truth of Church doctrine.

That's not only bad theology.

It's just daft.
Why on earth would you want me to cut him any slack over that?

7 June 2013 at 23:15  
Blogger bluedog said...

Thanks Albert @ 22.22, it took some doing but good of you to acknowledge the effort.

There's a potentially serious point behind the link. As you would be aware, Pope Francis has convened a reform commission of eight Cardinals, of whom one is the Australian Cardinal George Pell. So when a group of Australian Catholic bishops suddenly launches an extraordinarily radical set of proposals, it may be an 'off-Broadway' try out for something that may later emerge in Rome. Indeed, its hard not to see Pell's finger prints all over the initiative.

7 June 2013 at 23:17  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Inspector said ...

"Peter D / ardnejm. What do you two think Roman Catholicism is all about if it is not in bringing people closer to their God. Does it matter a damn if Cranmer digs the soil with his foot on the right side of the spade ?"

What Cranmer thinks and believes is his business. He doesn't claim to follow the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church - you do.

Despite your occasional moan about the demise the Traditional Latin Mass, you are a real child of Vatican II if the above comment to go by. The only area you seem 'conservative' on is homosexuality but really not for theological reasons.

Of course it matters to a Catholic whether one follows the teachings and doctrines of the Church!

Apparently, 84% of Irish people describe themselves as "Catholic".
However, many of her priests appear to no longer hold the Catholic faith. This was noted in the report of a recent Apostolic Visitation to Ireland, which mentioned a “certain tendency, not dominant but nevertheless fairly widespread among priests, religious, and laity, to hold theological opinions at variance with the teachings of the Magisterium.” The visitation report went on to point out that “it must be stressed that dissent from the fundamental teachings of the Church is not the authentic path towards renewal.”

A recent survey of Irish priests found that 60% of respondents wanted the Church to change its teaching to permit women priests.

In the same survey, 78% of surveyed priests said they thought Catholic clergy ought to be allowed to get married. 67% said they felt Irish bishops were too subservient to the Holy See.

The Association of Catholic Priests (ACP) — a liberal pressure group — now represents some 20% of Ireland's 4,000 priests. The group has called for opening up discussion on questions like the ordination of women and mandatory celibacy for priests. Its leader has also questioned artificial contraception.

A recent survey suggests that many Irish Catholics may be “belonging without believing” — attending Mass regularly but generally ignoring the Church’s teaching on a wide variety of issues. For example, three out of four Irish Catholics find the Church’s teaching on sexuality “irrelevant.” only 35% of Irish Catholics attend Mass once a week.

Yes, orthodoxy matters, Inspector.

7 June 2013 at 23:22  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


ardenjm, Well, for starters it's about bringing them closer to God, not THEIR God.

Astonishing. You do realise that Catholic or Protestant, it’s the same God.

Didn’t realise YOU are the Catholic church. Tell this man, when did you decide to take this onerous responsibility upon yourself ?


7 June 2013 at 23:25  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Apologies, that's me above - Peter Damian - or not!

Forgot to change my profile.

7 June 2013 at 23:25  
Blogger ardenjm said...

@Office

"Astonishing. You do realise that Catholic or Protestant, it’s the same God."

God is God.
That's all I was saying.
You're the one talking about "their God" - whatever that's supposed to mean.
Accordingly, if God is God - He can't be at the same time Vishnu, Allah, The Most Holy Trinity and Zeus.
Accordingly, if God is God - He can't at the same time be Really and Truly Present in the Holy Sacrament of the Altar AND find the blasphemous sacrifice of the Mass a monstrous superstition.

It's not rocket science.
But do carry on trying to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony.
Just excuse me if I don't join in in such nonsense.
As for the last line of your accusation:
Now you're just being silly.

7 June 2013 at 23:31  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Peter D, The Inspector is more orthodox than you would care to admit. Yes, there are problems, but this man realises that one day they will be addressed. If they are not, expect more rebellion from the ranks. The problem then being you will get calls like for women priests. Yuk !

7 June 2013 at 23:32  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

ardenjm, consider this. If you had been a temple priest around 2000 years ago, would you or would you not have given the teenage Christ a thick ear for what he was coming out with ?


7 June 2013 at 23:36  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


ardenjm. Transubstantiation is not the hurdle you think it is. If the devout wish to believe it is the actual body and blood of Christ let them. Others may just see it as a symbolic wafer, let them too. How does either diminish us as God’s human creation ?

7 June 2013 at 23:56  
Blogger Bob said...

@Office I. G., 18:00

Why thank you OIG, you are too kind. Although your humourous characterisation of my good self is sadly mistaken, I shall not bother to correct your error as true citizens of the world are humble men. I can assure you however that my magic beans are the real deal ;)

@Explorer, 18:16

I can stand to be thought of as preachy. That is a small price to pay for spreading the triple truth: "a generous heart, kind speech, and a life of service and compassion are the things which renew humanity.”

Goodnight gentlemen, I am rather elasticated after several pints of ale and I think it is time to call it a night. Shalom to you too Kavanagh-san.

:)

Peace.

8 June 2013 at 00:07  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

8 June 2013 at 00:08  
Blogger Peter D said...

Inspector
And now you've made the final leap to Anglicanism! Believe what you like, we'll all get there in the end. Its what the Act of Settlement attempted to achieve.

I know, team up with Tony Blair and form the New Catholic Church'. Be all things to all people.

The post by our host does make a serious point. There is truth in saying that Catholicism, indeed Christianity, has " ...at its heart a view about religion and about the interaction between religion and politics that is not compatible with pluralistic, liberal, open-minded societies.”

Church teaching is not open-minded about the proper role of secular authority in promoting and defending Christianity. Anglicans used to hold this view too; that's why we have an Established Church. The difference, of course, is that the Gospel doesn't condone or require 'Jihad' against infidels.

8 June 2013 at 00:13  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

PS- I did of course see the blasted spectacle of the 'house of lords' passing the homosexualist marriage act. Blasted fools! Time to get rid of them all and replace it with 100 odd hereditary peers, elected by all of the Lords of the land. Plus a few Anglicans (the conservative, non limp hand types) & Rabbis. Perhaps even a few Bhuddists.

Dam poor show, for a chap to watch at the end of his life.

8 June 2013 at 00:14  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Namaste, Bob. Can't say I see things through your lenses, but you are indeed refreshing. Stick around.

8 June 2013 at 00:16  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Peter D,

Dash it all,

It doesn't matter a fig what the gospels say about 'jihad', look at the bally Koran. Jihad or the struggle is perfectly acceptable with our friends whose religion is peace- as my relatives know first hand when the got expelled from Iraq after centuries being there- and it would help matters greatly if Papists such as Corrigan kept quiet in his 'useful idiot' apologetic for Islamic Jihadism vs Israel.

8 June 2013 at 00:17  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Avi Barzel,

Good to see that you are still alive and kicking old chap. Not so good myself, but one manages ...

Shabbat Shalom to you. Must go to bed now, I'm afraid.

8 June 2013 at 00:19  
Blogger Peter D said...

LL

You keep your pecker up, old chap. None of this despondency; it will discourage the young. Remember, the Gospel is one of hope and whatever lies ahead, and times will be tough, we can be sure God is in control and all things work out for good.

Sleep well.

8 June 2013 at 00:25  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

BRAVO Inspector General!

As you were, old chap!

So ardenjm believes any Christian who isn't a Roman doesn't follow the same God? How ecumenical- and bally disgraceful of the chap! Is Jesus, not Jesus because he is worshiped in a Protestant/Anglican Church? We worship Zeus instead, rather than the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob?!

Ridiculous tosh, that man!

I see what our fair lady the non- Mouse speaks of, although I understand from dispatches the Sister Tibs is more lucid with these matters?

8 June 2013 at 00:25  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

8 June 2013 at 00:27  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Peter Damian/peter D/Dodo

"Keep your pecker up"

One tries, even at my old age! Now one must get some kip, least I engage in a conversation with bob the peace man chap.

8 June 2013 at 00:28  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Feel and be well, Lord L, refuah shlemah. All's well on this end, just swamped with events. Back to my chicken in the oven now and the fat fires that keep errupting with one of the pans dripping.

8 June 2013 at 00:48  
Blogger Peter D said...

Inspector said ...

"ardenjm, consider this. If you had been a temple priest around 2000 years ago, would you or would you not have given the teenage Christ a thick ear for what he was coming out with ?"

See what I mean? If you're going to be a good protestant you really must read your Bible - if you have one.

We know from Scripture the learned Temple rabbis were amazed at the knowledge of the young Jesus of Nazareth. No thick ears at all concerning His understanding of Judaism. It was only when He made it clear He wasn't the Messiah they expected that the trouble really started.

8 June 2013 at 01:49  
Blogger Nick said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

8 June 2013 at 02:35  
Blogger Nick said...

Gentlemen, while this theological discussion about Roman Catholicism vs Protestantism is interesting, I've just read on Christian Concern's site that the Anglican bishops are officially giving up their opposition to SSM. This is disheartening to say the least, and makes me think that we (Anglicans) are increasingly beoming Chrisitians without a Church.

I would say this should be a time for putting aside doctrinal differences as far as possible and uniting on common ground where we find it. We are effectively on our own now, though I have no doubt God is on the side his faithful followers.

Our religious leaders are buckling at the knees over issues of sexual immorality, and the institution itself is likely to crumble eventually.

I feel unable to consider myself an Anglican anymore as it has no leadership based on God's teachings. Perhaps it would be better for the CoE to become disestablished. It has become too much a part of the state, to the extent it is a follower not a leader. A seperated church could be more independant of secular thinking.

What demoralising times we live in.

8 June 2013 at 02:38  
Blogger Manfarang said...

David K
"True. If only we followed the teaching of Bhudda. That'll solve everything. Unless you are in Sri Lanka or Burma."
Sri Lankan and Burmese monks politicised during the British colonial period.

8 June 2013 at 06:26  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Inspector
The Scots came from Ireland.

8 June 2013 at 06:28  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Carl


My father didn't talk to German soldoers in 1944. He killed them. Should he have done otherwise?

No but more of an effort should have been made to negotiate with Hitler, especially in 1944.

Unconditional surrender was all that was offered.

Phil

8 June 2013 at 06:36  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Bob/Everyone Else (00:07)

Belated welcome, Bob.

Others: Bob can stand to be thought of as preachy. That suggests he isn't really, but I have mistakenly taken him to be so.

But he then proceeds to preach at me. I take that as evidence that he might be preachy after all.

8 June 2013 at 07:21  
Blogger bluedog said...

Jay Bee @ 22.46 asks, 'How did you manage to miss both his kneecaps?'

The partition got in the way.

8 June 2013 at 09:06  
Blogger Bob said...

Good morning, greetings Avi and thanks to all for your kind messages. Explorer, well, perhaps I am a little preachy. And in that spirit I would like to draw the attention of His Grace and his communicants to the following parable, "The Old Man and the Scorpion":

One morning, after he had finished his meditation, the old man opened his eyes and saw a scorpion floating helplessly in
the water. As the scorpion was washed closer to the tree, the old man quickly stretched himself out on one of the long roots that branched out into the river and reached out to rescue the drowning creature. As soon as he touched it, the scorpion stung him.

Instinctively the man withdrew his hand. A minute later, after he had regained his balance, he stretched himself out again on the roots to save the scorpion. This time the scorpion stung him so badly with its
poisonous tail that his hand became swollen and bloody and his face contorted with pain.

At that moment, a passerby saw the old man stretched out on the roots struggling with the scorpion and shouted: "Hey, stupid old man, what's wrong with you? Only a fool would risk his life for the sake of an ugly, evil creature. Don't you
know you could kill yourself trying to save that ungrateful scorpion?"

The old man turned his head. Looking into the stranger's eyes he said calmly, "My friend, just because it is the scorpion's
nature to sting, that does not change my nature to save."

8 June 2013 at 09:14  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Bob,

That's a great post!

Metaphysical issues there. Will ponder them: can't respond now, as am on my way out.

Maybe later on this one, or on another thread.

Regards.

8 June 2013 at 09:38  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Apologizing for Jihadists, Lord Lavendon? I think not. But nor will I apologize for a naked land grab by people who have no entitlement to that land. That I leave to your kind in the Church of England. If Zionists believe that they are entitled to a sunny land by the sea where they can grow citrus fruit and have brown types doing their domestic chores, such a place already exists: it's called Florida, and I would dearly love to see the likes of Carl Jacobs' reaction to your and Cressida's "special pleadings" for the dislocation at gunpoint of the indigenous poplulation to make room for the Pieds Noir.

8 June 2013 at 09:59  
Blogger Julia Gasper said...

Banjo says he is "lovely" and "amenable to rational arguments". (Many titters heard all round.)
Thanks for giving us a good laugh in our Saturday morning lie-in. Modesty is such an appealing characteristic isn't it?
Banjo will nominate himself for the Nobel Peace Prize very soon.
On the main subject of RC and the IRA, it should be observed that Irish Nationalism is not necessarily connected with Roman Catholicism. Some of the greatest Irish Nationalists were Protestant and the movement's origins are non-denominational.




8 June 2013 at 10:16  
Blogger Julia Gasper said...

Corrigan's outburst above suggests that he has never heard of the Balfour Agreement or the British mandate in Palestine.
There was an international agreement after World War I that the former dominions of the defeated Turkish Empire should be re-allocated. Yes, a small part of it was allocated to refugees and asylum seekers who had suffered terribly and been displaced during World War 2. It was the least the international community could in decency do for them, and it was done by treaty. All the best parts, including the vastly lucrative oilfields, were given to the Arabs.
His accusation that Israelis use "brown people" as slaves might be more appropriate aimed at some of the oil-rich states of the Gulf.
Is Corrigan another name for Banjo?

8 June 2013 at 10:31  
Blogger Julia Gasper said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

8 June 2013 at 10:31  
Blogger Julia Gasper said...

@ Corrigan. I think you find that the word dislocation" does not mean to forcibly re-locate people.

8 June 2013 at 10:35  
Blogger Corrigan said...

And were the Palestinians party to this treaty?

8 June 2013 at 10:52  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Grasper: "Thanks for giving us a good laugh in our Saturday morning lie-in. Modesty is such an appealing characteristic isn't it?"

There's a hint of irony in it, you mad old bat.

8 June 2013 at 11:04  
Blogger Julia Gasper said...

Spiteful little mutterings from the vain and self-vaunting clown Banjo!!!!
You know as much about irony as you do about women - nil. Abuse is just your level.
@ Corrigan. Were the far larger numbers of Jewish people who were expelled from all the surrounding countries when they declared war on Israel ever party to any treaty?Were they consulted? Were they ever given compensation or offered their homes and land back? They were refugees and asylum seekers too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMh-vlQwrmU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Here is a video about real slavery.
Your education is overdue.

8 June 2013 at 11:50  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

8 June 2013 at 12:00  
Blogger Jay Bee said...

bluedog@9:06

Brilliant!

8 June 2013 at 12:34  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Corrigan,

Alas for you Israel is fully sovereign state- has been since 1948, when the Arabs tried to smash it by force and refused to accept the peace plan of the UN.

Prior to that Jews have always lived in that area and bought land (often desert and swamp) from the Ottoman regime and turned it into towns, arable farmland and generally improved the place. But hardly illegal.

Then there is also the biblical claim to the land, as we all know.

3 good reasons as to why the Jewish people do have claim to Israel.

Jews were also forced out of Arab lands at gunpoint, often with just a suite case, perhaps you would like to spare a thought for them?

Finally, it would seem you have a very old fashioned view on race and the deep south of America. The Florida you are thinking of belongs to the 1850s, not the 2010s.

Besides which, why should America let the Palestinians come to Florida? Better for fellow Arab states such as Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia to take care of them, don't you think?

8 June 2013 at 13:47  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

"You know as much about irony as you do about women - nil. Abuse is just your level."

Grasper, you're constantly abusive here and often without provocation, as everyone can see above. Moreover, you appear to be completely humourless as well as being full of bile and misery. I show remarkable restraint with you as it goes but I can hardly claim the high ground there because I know very well that no matter how rude I am to you, I couldn't do anything like as much damage to you as you do to yourself, and UKIP, by simply opening your own mouth.

8 June 2013 at 15:04  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Phil

No but more of an effort should have been made to negotiate with Hitler, especially in 1944.

And leave that malignant gov't in power? No, unconditional surrender was all that was offered because that was all that should have been offered. The Nazis needed to be exterminated root and branch. No mercy. No quarter. No pity. Far better to endure the cost now then to encounter the need to pay it again in the future.

carl

8 June 2013 at 15:14  
Blogger Corrigan said...

I want everybody to read what Lord Lavendon has just written and then marvel at the power of the human mind: he has actually allowed himself to rationalize this. Shocking, isn't it?

8 June 2013 at 15:17  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Corrigan

"special pleadings" for the dislocation at gunpoint of the indigenous population to make room for the Pieds Noir.

I don't have any idea what "special pleadings" you are referring to. However, I don't see much comparison between a French colony and Palestine. The French were trying to maintain French domination of a land conquered by France. All the Israelis did was move to a piece of land that was largely uninhabited and settle it. For their troubles, they were attacked. Now, you may not like the fact that the gov'ts with legal sovereignty over the land allowed this to happen. But they did. You may have preferred it if all the Jews in Palestine had been killed in 1948. But they won.

carl

8 June 2013 at 15:38  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Why do people who know - KNOW - it wasn't so and who know everyone else knows it wasn't so continue to propagate the garbage that Palestine was uninhabited?

8 June 2013 at 18:06  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Nick,
Catching up after a day away at a certain political conference. This Christian who happens to be "parked" in the Anglican Church agrees with you. I am not impressed with ++Welby performance over this. Why praise those who have undermined the clear teachings of Scripture and Traditions ? It makes it look like a less than all out defense of traditional marriage.
If they work and amend the Bill to give this new false definition of marriage more of the characteristics of the one that it is replacing will that not simply add to the confusion ? Christian Concern has expressed its disappointment.

8 June 2013 at 18:58  
Blogger Anselm Hart said...

There is a profound point to be made here: Catholic terrorists are disobeying the teaching of their spiritual leader (Jesus), while Islamic terrorists are obeying the teaching of their spiritual leader (Muhammad).

8 June 2013 at 19:01  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Corrigan

You seem happy to swallow the Arafat myth of Palestine as a State and a people; which is a bit rich as he was an Egyptian. There never has been until 1967 the concept of such a breed - Arabs yes; under Ottoman rule for centuries - yes.

Why then did they not seek to have an independent state for over 400 years? The entire map of the middle east was drawn up to accommodate several Arab states with just a tiny sliver of land that now remains as Israel. This isn't about
an independent 'Palestine State' its about the desire to murder another six million Jews.

The Arabs cant even be a peace with themselves. Arafat was kicked out of Jordan for stirring the shit. Hamas at least is honest about wanting to destroy the Jews but unsure whether to destroy Fatah before or after.

8 June 2013 at 19:53  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Corrigan

'marvel at the power of the human mind: he has actually allowed himself to rationalize this. Shocking, isn't it?'

I am uncertain as to what is so shocking actually, my dear chap, that is allowing Arabs to live in an Arab country.

But then, I have no idea what the reference 'special pleading' pertained to;it was yourself who suggested Arabs go and work in Florida, to try and portray Carl Jacobs as a racist.

Whilst on a discussion of such,I do not agree with your racialist stereotypes of the deep south. What next all black people are 'cotton pickers'? Now that view belongs to 1860, not 2013.

Regardless, you should also note that there are plenty of Jews with dark skin as well as African Jews. Some who live in South Africa, others who came from Abyssinia. So your allusions of white vs black does not add up old fellow.

8 June 2013 at 21:40  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Ah, Avi

I trust you enjoyed your chicken roast? Many thanks for your warm regards.

8 June 2013 at 21:45  
Blogger Roger Pearse said...

I always think it's easy enough to tell whether the supposedly Catholic IRA was motivated by Catholicism or politics; which did it bomb on? Did it bomb to defend Catholicism? Did it bomb Tony Blair when he ordered that Catholics couldn't run adoption agencies any more? When the BBC attacked one of his ministers purely for being Catholic?

To ask the question is to answer it. Northern Ireland was always about politics, not religion. In Semtext veritas.

8 June 2013 at 22:21  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Corrigan

Why do people who know - KNOW - it wasn't so and who know everyone else knows it wasn't so continue to propagate the garbage that Palestine was uninhabited?

You mean like when i said this?

All the Israelis did was move to a piece of land that was largely uninhabited and settle it.

Did you notice that word? Or did you just ignore it on purpose?

What I know - KNOW - is what I have told you at least twice before. One of the principle arguments made against large scale Jewish immigration to Palestine was the inability of the land to support the additional population. The land was ridiculously underpopulated relative to what the land could sustain. Palestine was an arid undeveloped sparely-populated backwater.

You make it sound like the Israelis got off the boat and forcibly evicted Arabs from their homes. What they actually did was purchase land and develop it. You know - KNOW - this. The unforgivable Israeli sin was to threaten Arab domination of the land. It had nothing to do with "stealing land." The Israelis weren't stealing it. They were buying it. The Arabs simply didn't want a bunch of Jews moving into the neighborhood. So they reacted in a perfectly normal and civilized manner and tried to kill all the Jewish immigrants up front.

Why just think how peaceful the Middle east would be if only the Arabs had succeeded. What a tragedy the Jews refused to be slaughtered in 1948.

carl

9 June 2013 at 02:40  
Blogger Ivan said...

You seem happy to swallow the Arafat myth of Palestine...Egyptian.

Dreadnaught, the fact that Arafat was born in Egypt is neither here nor there. Where was Ben-Gurion born? The terrorist Begin? There is little significance to Arafat's place of birth. What is significant is that Arafat was al-Husseini's nephew. The Arabs through al-Husseini bear some responsibility, indirectly, for some of the dead Hungarian Jews. I don't buy either side's foundational myths. But on balance it is the Israelis who had tried their best to live in peace.

9 June 2013 at 08:06  
Blogger Ivan said...

You seem happy to swallow the Arafat myth of Palestine...Egyptian.

Dreadnaught, the fact that Arafat was born in Egypt is neither here nor there. Where was Ben-Gurion born? The terrorist Begin? There is little significance to Arafat's place of birth. What is significant is that Arafat was al-Husseini's nephew. The Arabs through al-Husseini bear some responsibility, indirectly, for some of the dead Hungarian Jews. I don't buy either side's foundational myths. But on balance it is the Israelis who had tried their best to live in peace.

9 June 2013 at 08:12  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Ivan

Agreed.

9 June 2013 at 11:59  
Blogger Jimbo said...

"There is a problem within Protestantism.."

I think you will find your Grace that is was Protestant terrorists that started the Troubles by carrying out terrorist attacks on Irish businesses. These Protestant terrorists were all signed up to the Westminster Confession of Faith and carried them out in the name of the Supreme Governor of the Church of England.

9 June 2013 at 21:43  
Blogger LEN said...

Those who carry out violent acts cannot be followers of Christ?.

Protestant OR Catholic.

10 June 2013 at 11:21  
Blogger binks webelf said...

This is the oddest article I've read on your otherwise fine blog, since ever. Gunning for the Titus Oates Award, it seems.

Very odd.

11 June 2013 at 19:49  
Blogger Lepanto said...

Sinn Fein is ordering its MP's to vote for abortion and they are trying to introduce SSM into N. Ireland . They were never Christian nor Catholics they were violent Irish Nationalists whose greatest allies were the anti-Catholic, violent and vile RUC.

17 June 2013 at 23:04  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Sinn Fein have been Marxists for well over 40 years. It’s why when they say they are nothing to do with the IRA, you can believe them...

18 June 2013 at 15:25  

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