Tuesday, August 20, 2013

Board of Deputies of British Jews vs. Rev'd Dr Stephen Sizer


In October 2012 the Board of Deputies of British Jews filed a formal complaint with the Church of England against the Rev'd Dr Stephen Sizer, under the Clergy Discipline Measure. Almost a year on, there has still been no final ruling.

The Board summarised its complaint as follows:
The matters complained of disclose a clear and consistent pattern of activity on the part of Rev Sizer. The evidence indicates that he spends time trawling dark and extreme corners of the internet for material to add to his website. Rev Sizer re-publishes such items to support the target of his polemical writing, while at the same introducing his readers to the racist and antisemitic websites from where he draws his material. As the evidence demonstrates, there are five instances of this over the 11 month period from July 2011 to June 2012.
The Clergy Discipline Measure can lead to the loss of a minister's licence. With that possibility looming, one might expect Dr Sizer to manifest a degree of heightened objectivity if not scrupulous fairness when writing further about Israel. Surely a Christian minister would be so concerned about the possibility of losing his licence to minister that he would avoid saying anything that could possibly be construed as anti-Semitic? He knows, by now, that Jewish people may well interpret slanderous demonisation of the world's only Jewish state as an expressions of anti-Semitism. And yet it seems he just can't help himself.

In an article published this month titled 'Christian Zionism: The New Heresy that Undermines Middle East Peace', Dr Sizer writes of 'Israel's apartheid colonialist agenda' and 'Israel's racist and apartheid policies.' Such statements might be excusable if they emanated from the mind of a secondary school politics student or a Liberal Democrat MP, but in Dr Sizer's case we cannot assume that he is simply poorly informed because, as he says in the article, he has carried out '10 years of postgraduate research' in this area.

So there can be little doubt that he is fully aware that Arab citizens in Israel (20 per cent of the population) have the vote, and can be represented by Arab parties. He is fully aware that Israeli Arabs have freedom of movement and can do all the things alongside Israeli Jews that black people in South Africa were forbidden to do alongside the white - such as use public transport and public libraries; eat in restaurants; and visit cinemas, theatres, swimming pools and public beaches.

There is in fact no basis whatsoever to Dr Sizer's 'apartheid' slander, as the CAMERA website patiently and meticulously demonstrates (and His Grace addressed some years ago). It would be perfectly understandable if Jewish observers suspected an anti-Semitic motive behind Dr Sizer's promotion of a claim that he knows to be untrue. After all, in addition to the internet trawling identified by the Board of Deputies, he has in the past made anti-Semitic comments regarding Monica Lewinsky and Muammar Gaddafi. His one-sidedness is so extreme that he once called for the release of an anti-Semitic hate preacher and convicted Hamas fundraiser (held in Britain after passing through border control despite a ban on his entry), while simultaneously campaigning for the arrest of Tzipi Livni, the democratically elected leader of the moderate opposition party in the Israeli Parliament (who was visiting Britain at the invitation of the UK government).

Perhaps worst of all, he once accused Israel of perpetuating the Holocaust by its treatment of the Palestinians, a statement for which he has never apologised. Where Jews are concerned, Dr Sizer's heart is cauterised.

He leads an Evangelical church - Christ Church Virginia Water. The group that is best placed to show the Jewish community that such extremism has no place in Christianity is the South East Gospel Partnership, the Evangelical network to which Christ Church Virginia Water belongs. This group is chaired by Rev'd William Taylor of St Helen’s Bishopsgate, and its Committee is made up of Rev'd Iain Broomfield of Christ Church Bromley, Rev'd Richard Coekin of the Co-Mission network of churches, Rev'd Charles Dobbie of Holy Trinity Lyonsdown, Nick McQuaker of Christ Church Haywards Heath, Brian O’Donoghue of St Helen’s Bishopsgate, Rev'd John Ross of Farnham Baptist Church, and Rev'd Simon Smallwood of St George’s Dagenham.

Everyone knows how quickly this group would have broken ties with a partner church which had begun to teach that gay sex was acceptable to God. But how have they reacted to Dr Sizer's incessant slandering of the only Jewish state in the world? How have they responded to his anti-Semitic quips and conspiracy theories; to the extremism of his campaigning; to his trawling of anti-Semitic internet sites?

They have said that they see ‘no justifiable grounds for breaking gospel partnership with Stephen or Christ Church Virginia Water.'

In recent years there have been numerous cases of people in public life facing discipline for making precisely the same kind of comments as Dr Sizer: Liberal Democrat Baroness Jenny Tonge; the journalist Helen Thomas; Liberal Democrat David Ward MP; and a pro-Palestinian campaigner named Kenneth O'Keefe. A Greek athlete was even banned from the London 2012 Olympics for making a racist joke comparable to Dr Sizer's remark about Monica Lewinsky. So the South East Gospel Partnership has taken a position toward anti-Semitism that is seemingly more lax than the world's.

It's true that sometimes the world can go into a McCarthyite moral overdrive. Someone might choose to argue that the same has happened in the area of anti-Semitism. But if that is why the Committee of the South East Gospel Partnership is taking no action, the Jewish community deserves to hear that explanation. Otherwise the Committee's unwillingness to act in accordance with widely-accepted precedents will be viewed as apathy toward the concerns of British Jews, or even as approval of what Dr Sizer has said and done.

It is not every day that an ethnic minority's representative organisation seeks legal redress regarding an Evangelical vicar. The SEGP Committee needs to rise to the occasion.

When did Evangelicals forget Jesus' warning in the Sermon on the Mount about false prophets? 'Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them'. If readers and communicants will permit His Grace to quote himself: the Form and Manner of Ordering of Priests bids those admitted to the Order of Priesthood:
Forasmuch then as your office is both of so great excellency and of so great difficulty, ye see with how great care and study ye ought to apply yourselves, as well that ye may show yourselves dutiful and thankful unto that Lord, who hath placed you in so high a dignity; as also to beware that neither you yourselves offend, nor be occasion that others offend.
How Stephen Sizer has trampled over that exhortation!

So why have Evangelical leaders done nothing - absolutely nothing - to rein in and rebuke one of their own?

106 Comments:

Blogger Corrigan said...

"World's only Jewish state", eh Cranmer? Not the state of its citizens, but that of Jews worldwide. Special rules for special people, I suppose.

20 August 2013 10:15  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Just checked out the Rev's weblog (OK an hour of my time). The conclusion : what a wonderful place of ecumenical Christian -Jewish understanding, which is no way shape or form biased, one sided or theologically challenged.

But there won't be any discipline of this Priest, as the evangelicals control the money of the C of E and that organisation is adopting the "Palestinian" narrative more and more.

Sad really.

20 August 2013 11:11  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

PS, you can bet if a Vicar was running a site against, sorry, 'posing legitimate criticism' of Islam, gays or women Vicars, they'd be excommunicated in 2 minutes, not 12 months...

20 August 2013 11:12  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

It's beyond my comprehension how any Christian, or indeed any non-Moslem, can aid and abet the global jihadist agenda.

Israel is their number one target - the Sudetenland of our time.

Once the Moslems conquer Israel, they'll be so emboldened that there'll be no stopping them short of World War III

20 August 2013 11:14  
Blogger Corrigan said...

I presume, David, that your post at 11:11 was meant in irony. As we know, any criticism of any Israeli, or indeed any Jew, for any reason by any person at any time is, of course, the most vicious anti-Semitism and the critic is worse than Hitler.

20 August 2013 11:15  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Corrigan,

Obtuse as usual I see. You know and this Rev would get on well together as you are singing from the same hymn sheet when it comes to Jews/Israel/the middle east. (ironic, that you are not following the Vatican party whip here). Perhaps you are more an evangelical than you think eh?

20 August 2013 11:16  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Corrigan,

Judge for yourself. But I suspect you'd be nodding like a good donkey at almost every post there.... in summary *Israeli (Joo) bad, Palestinian good Muslims*

20 August 2013 11:20  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Sean,

'It's beyond my comprehension how any Christian, or indeed any non-Moslem, can aid and abet the global jihadist agenda. '

The phrase 'useful idiots' spring to mind ?

20 August 2013 11:24  
Blogger Rich said...

As if to further prove the point, MEMO, the web site Sizer wrote that article for, is a Hamas linked site!

Here is another interesting commentary on Sizer's MEMO article http://roshpinaproject.com/2013/08/09/stephen-sizer-heresy-and-hypocrisy/

20 August 2013 11:26  
Blogger David Anderson said...

The comparison between promoting homosexual intercourse and promoting erroneous political doctrines as obvious moral equivalents is over-egging the pudding.

But, since Cranmer raises the subject, I'll say: I can't help noticing the vehemency with which Cranmer promotes this particular campaign and seeing Dr. Sizer disciplined, with his lack of interest in seeing the promoters of sexual immorality disciplined. Cranmer seems to have succumbed to the spirit of the age here.

20 August 2013 11:27  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Not all "Joos" (as you call them) are Zionists, still less are they Israelis. The Vatican, by the way, does not have a "party whip" on the middle east. It's a common fallacy among non-Catholics to assume that the voice of the Vatican is that of Catholicism. In fact, on moral and religioius issues, the Magisterium is the only voice of Catholicism, and the Magisterium has never spoken on middle eastern affairs.

20 August 2013 11:28  
Blogger Corrigan said...

I think David Anderson must be new here. He obviously doesn't realize our genial host is King Crank when it comes to Christian Zionism. For myself, I am, of course, the model of detached calculation on the issue and base my position purely on the facts, which is why I have a zero tolerance approach to Zionist apologetics.

20 August 2013 11:32  
Blogger David Anderson said...

" This group is chaired by Rev'd William Taylor of St Helen’s Bishopsgate, and its Committee is made up of Rev'd Iain Broomfield of Christ Church Bromley, Rev'd Richard Coekin of the Co-Mission network of churches, Rev'd Charles Dobbie of Holy Trinity Lyonsdown, Nick McQuaker of Christ Church Haywards Heath, Brian O’Donoghue of St Helen’s Bishopsgate, Rev'd John Ross of Farnham Baptist Church, and Rev'd Simon Smallwood of St George’s Dagenham."

I wonder whether Cranmer sees himself as bold and courageous for listing long lists of names... but always omitting his own?

Those names are mostly Anglicans, and I can't understand how gospel-loving men can choose to be joined to the Anglican church. But I do recognise that it's easy to speak big words when you don't have to put your own name to them.

20 August 2013 11:34  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Well I for one distance myself from any anti-Semitism. The Jewish OT is after all the bedrock of the NT and the Christian faith.

As for Zionism well the politics and history of that small, contested area land is so complex it is all too easy to jump to prejudiced, one sided conclusions, I think. I read a number of histories of The Holy Land and it was so convoluted I decided at the end that taking a stance backing just one side was simplistic, so uncharacteristically I am fence perching at present. However I note that Israel is a democratic state and have a natural affinity for that.

20 August 2013 11:39  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Corrigan,

Seriously it is weblog (despite being written by an evangelical), that you would prefer to be on as every other post about Israel, you could have written. Much more than this 'King Crank' site. As for Zionist/Jews. Tell that to some of your supporters in the anti-Zionist camp.

20 August 2013 11:39  
Blogger Corrigan said...

But I do recognise that it's easy to speak big words when you don't have to put your own name to them

Dismiss the thought, David Anderson, and wash your mouth out with carbolic. I prefer to think of Cranmer as the Batman of Anglicanism, complete with Avi Barzel as his Robin and Carl Jacobs as his Chief Gordon. Hidden in a cave somewhere, he is ever ready to spring forth to the defence of the King James whenever Papal minions like myself remind the world that there are 73 books in the Bible. You will allow that for such an important mission, anonymity is vital. But you don't have to take my word for it, you can ask him yourself. Just go up to the roof and flash the Cranmer signal.

20 August 2013 11:42  
Blogger bluedog said...

Heavens, Your Grace, it seems communicant Corrigan is swimming back-stroke across the Tiber in the general direction of Dr Sizer; birds of a feather, no doubt.

In the matter of Monica Lewinsky, your communicant occasionally fantasises about open a chain of dry-cleaning establishments called 'Lewinsky's - no stain too hard', but his heart isn't really in it.

20 August 2013 11:43  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Come off it, David Kavanagh (damn this modern mania for naming children "Dave"); where's the fun in being on a site where everyone agrees with you?

20 August 2013 11:44  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Hey, Dog, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, and as any theologian will tell you, heresy is about having some of the truth.

20 August 2013 11:46  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Corrigan,

Indeed it is and I do dislike the modern name 'dave'.

20 August 2013 11:47  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

A seemingly sound appraisal of the situation Archbishop. Rather reminiscent of Bruce Kent and his predicament, don’t you think ? Can’t serve two demanding masters together. The needs of the flock competing over the needs of a distant and extremely unreasonable Islamic rabble.

And then we come to that darling word racism. A trigger happy violent approach to others not exactly as yourself with a corresponding derision of their right to live in your wonderful Islamic peace is a racial trait as far as yours truly is concerned. Call it something else if you like. Call it “just us theory”. Call it anything but on no account pretend it doesn’t or shouldn’t exist….

20 August 2013 12:17  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Corrigan

No, see, you have changed my mind. I have decided that I cannot fight no more against such logic, and so I have decided to give myself up. A wise decision, I am sure you will agree, that spares me a fate much worse than the frying pan.

So I now believe that Jew and Palestinian should be happily mixed into a unitary state occupying ... is it OK to say 'occupying'? ... the land of the original mandate. With full right of return of course for all those Palestinian refugees. That way peace and order and harmony can be restored. You know. Like in Egypt. And Libya. And Syria.

Now of course there is a small risk that Hamas might take a while to trust the Jews - what with all those years of oppression by Zionists. So we will have to be tolerant of any residual trouble. But the Jews have killed waaaaay more Palestinians so the Jews still have lives to 'give' for the sake of peace.

But I also understand that Zionism is deeply rooted in Isreali life and might prove impossible to remove. Jewish stubbornness has blocked peace so far and might continue to do so. If so, the righteous Palestinian struggle will continue and this might necessitate a reduction in the Zionist population. Many might have to leave. It will be a tragedy to see the suffering these Jews will have brought on themselves.

You know, all things considered, it would have been much better if after WWII he Jews had just all went back to their respective countries of origin. I am sure they could have found vacant fields somewhere to put up houses. I am sure their former neighbors would have accepted them back. And the world would have been spared all the trauma of the Zionist state.

There! How did I do?

carl

20 August 2013 12:47  
Blogger Brian Gould said...

Is Sizer the only Anglican cleric spouting these propaganda lies? I don’t think so. On Jan. 4 last year Harry’s Place ran a post criticising the Bishop of Guildford for his continued support of Sizer. The post included this quote:

“I believe the Christian Churches must remain indebted to Stephen Sizer for his serious and scholarly analysis of Christian Zionism and the origins of uncritical support for the policies of the present day Israeli state.” Right Revd Christopher Hill, Bishop of Guildford.

So the rot has affected a much bigger chunk of the Anglican Church. Your Grace cannot have forgotten that a year or two ago the then Bishop of Durham, N. T. Wright, used to erupt in an ecstasy of hatred of Israel from time to time. Wright has now retired but that doesn’t mean the Anglican Church has redeemed itself from that particular sin.

20 August 2013 12:52  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Valid point seanrobsville. Should Israel fall, what will the committed muslim terror outfits do with all the spare time on their hands. This of course would be AFTER they’ve bloodied themselves taking revenge on every former Israeli Jew they can get their hands on. By then, they’ll be frothing at the mouth, and wild eyed as they fire their rifles in the air…

20 August 2013 12:55  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

20 August 2013 12:55  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Everybody's sooooo concerned about Israel "falling" aren't they? Here's a thought, just a throwaway kind of notion, really, but has anybody thought of about the idea of "the west" standing up for it's own values (such as remain, that is, after decades of secularization) and guarding their own borders with their own manpower? You see, that way, you wouldn't have to degrade yourselves by relying on tinpot dictatorships like the Israelis to do it for you, and, moreover, the Israelis wouldn't be as contemptuous of "the west" as they (admittedly, with some justification) are now? How 'bout it, guys; sound like a plan?

20 August 2013 13:21  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

20 August 2013 13:45  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Corrigan,

You mean in the same way the Irish government 'stood up' for 'western values' in 1939-1945, by being courageously neutral, praying that Great Britain and America would win then?

20 August 2013 13:46  
Blogger IanCad said...

YG,

I think it unwise that the Board of Deputies of British Jews have filed this complaint. Granted, Rev. Sizer is a twit, and a dangerous one at that, but for the BoD to attempt to silence him or censure him through the revocation of his license can only lead the disinterested to surmise that British Jews are reluctant to articulate their own position regarding the State of Israel. Thus, the assumption will be that their argument is weak and their position wrong.
Jewish people do not serve themselves well when they appeal to others to help them in their battles. History will attest to that.
They have the right on their side. Shout it from the rooftops!

Neither YG, do I believe it helpful to cite those upon whom discipline has been attempted or applied. To silence lies is to silence truth.

We all need to fight this wretched tendency to limit the right of absolute free speech. It may hurt it, may influence the impressionable but it must be free for all.

20 August 2013 14:10  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Nobody stood up for "western values" in 1939; those who fought did so because they couldn't find a way off the battlefield. Let's not romanticize history. We're not Zionists, after all.

20 August 2013 14:12  
Blogger The Judicious Hooker said...

Corrigan at 11:42: HEAR HEAR! In moments of doubt and dismay I'll flash the Cranmer signal - BCP in hand!

Sizer does need to be rebuked and disciplined but Anglicans just can't find it in them to throw the book at clerics over these matters. Illegal act, yes. But opinions on the morality of nation states? It's a grey area.

Anglican polity prefers to let one bad egg rot slowly rather than create a sub-zero environment for us all where no putrefaction were ever possible. I'd rather be a member of a Communion which permits enquiry and discussion, than one which dictates what its members may think on issues of the day.

Israel as a state is problematic as it so often falls short of the high morality of the Law and the Prophets. That said, it is an oasis of freedom and the rule of law in a region dominated by disorder and tyranny.

Sizer's venom will poison others only for so long. Those who read Sacred Scripture realise that God's blessing extends to those who bless Israel as a people. Sizer is ultimately his own worst enemy.

20 August 2013 14:24  
Blogger Corrigan said...

By the way, David, I notice you don't contradict me on the point about Israelis having utter contempt for their western sponsors and paymasters.

20 August 2013 14:26  
Blogger Naomi King said...


Brain Gould, well said @ 12:52. I have been at lectures at St Mellitus Anglican Theological College in London where very anti Israeli words were spoken by a certain member of the staff and when challenged by the students both orally and by email he refused to answer. That sin of replacement theology is alive and well in the training schools of the Anglican Church I fear. The LORD will have the last word of course.

20 August 2013 14:42  
Blogger IanCad said...

Naomi King wrote:

"---That sin of replacement theology is alive and well in the training schools of the Anglican Church I fear---"

So, those who do not accept that Jerusalem will be the at centre of end times events. Do not believe that the temple will be rebuilt,and cast doubt on the inventions of the Dispensationalists are now held as sinners?

That's a bit harsh. I will merely respond that, to my mind, your eschatology is built upon some mighty rickety foundations.

20 August 2013 15:23  
Blogger Ivan said...


Sizer may or may not be an ass. But who gave the BOD the authority to decide what he may or may not read? If he was inciting hatred of Jews in the UK that is properly their concern, the state of Israel should however be able to care of itself.

20 August 2013 15:24  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Corrigan. …don’t contradict me on the point about Israelis having utter contempt for their western sponsors and paymasters.

Come on that man. Since when did ingratitude play a part in anything …

20 August 2013 15:48  
Blogger Ivan said...


And if some Islamists take the cue from the success of the BOD - as they always do - and shut down an Evangelist site, for in their eyes promoting hatred of Muslims, by merely telling the truth about Mahomet, who in fairness can blame them for emulating the successful?

20 August 2013 15:54  
Blogger Jesuestomihi said...

Once again the virtual archbishop
gives me a reason for staying in the Anglican church. Christian Zionism was, is and ever shall be true orthodoxy. That the Rev Sizer still peddles his poison is as shameful as the tripe allowed to be put out by the former Bishop of Durham David Jenkins. When will bible believing evangelicals retake the church and rescue it from those who do not belive or trust in the Word?

20 August 2013 16:16  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Corrigan,

Although, I think it was only Ireland saw it fit to offer condolences on the death of Mr A Hitler... so we can see the kind of leadership you were really everyone for in your post above.

As for you being upset about me not rebuking the crap about 'tin pot dictatorships', I really cannot be bothered, as that was such a lame comment it wasn't worth responding to. I look at Egypt, Syria, Iran, Saudi, 'Palestine' itself, none of which are tinpot dictatorships, which means tiny Israel with an elected Parliament and a PR electoral system in which everyone can vote needs to be singled out...

20 August 2013 16:19  
Blogger Owl said...


Corrigan,

You're not, perhaps, a secret greenie by any chance?

Just trying to figure out where you're coming from.

20 August 2013 16:19  
Blogger Owl said...


David,

I think you will find that the offering of condolences was only on the part of a certain Mr. de Valera. This Cuban gentleman did not seem to know his arse from his elbow. The Irish supported the allies in many ways, e.g. many served in the British army or the rescue teams during the bombings etc.

Please don't take Mr. Corrigan as an example of Irish (non)thinking.

20 August 2013 16:26  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Owl,

I was particular to say 'Irish government' in my first post,so yes I am aware of the contribution (often against their own government)of thousands of Irish people during the war, so that isn't an issue for me. However it is an issue for Corrigan, who I am sometimes sure would have wanted the other side to win.

You see Corrigan, he's freely admitted in the past, that he sees the Arab-Israeli dispute as Arabs (Catholic) and Israelis (Protestants) in Irish history. To him this is an extension of 'the troubles' in Ireland.

20 August 2013 16:33  
Blogger Owl said...

Thank you David for the explanation. I could not figure out where his confusion was coming from.

20 August 2013 16:43  
Blogger Naomi King said...


Thank you, Jesuestomihi @ 16:16 said...

"When will Holy Bible believing evangelicals retake the church and rescue it from those who do not belive or trust in the Word?" Christian Zionism was, is and ever shall be true orthodoxy."

Which answers IanCad beautifully. It is not at all harsh to say that replacement theology is sinful it is based on unbelief which is the greatest of all sin.

20 August 2013 17:20  
Blogger jonty said...

I have been to Israel four times, it certainly looks like Apartheid to me.

20 August 2013 17:28  
Blogger Damian said...

So why have Evangelical leaders done nothing - absolutely nothing - to rein in and rebuke one of their own?

Perhaps they believe in free speech?

20 August 2013 17:30  
Blogger The Explorer said...

jonty @ 17:28

Just as a matter of interest, did you also visit South Africa in its Apartheid days?

20 August 2013 18:05  
Blogger IanCad said...

Now, Now, Naomi, It is not sinful to understand the Word of God in a way that does not square with your interpretation.
I do not suggest that you are sinful because you reason differently. Kindly offer me the same courtesy.

20 August 2013 18:23  
Blogger Drastic Plastic said...

"The comparison between promoting homosexual intercourse and promoting erroneous political doctrines as obvious moral equivalents is over-egging the pudding.

"But, since Cranmer raises the subject, I'll say: I can't help noticing the vehemency with which Cranmer promotes this particular campaign and seeing Dr. Sizer disciplined, with his lack of interest in seeing the promoters of sexual immorality disciplined. Cranmer seems to have succumbed to the spirit of the age here."

Quite so. Is Cranmer *Jewish*, perchance? For I can think of no other reason for this strange selectivity.

Sizer's political views are daft leftism, of course. Certainly they need to be opposed, politically. But ...

... do we really believe, here, that daft political views become cause for an inquisition (other than on the political left, of course, with its ever-growing list of Thoughtcrimes)?

The Christians, reasonably, don't want to choose their friends based on a political criterion. Quite wise of them; for once they allow others to determine their membership, they are finished. Few of them can agree with Sizer's views, I'm sure; but they show admirable tolerance. I could wish Cranmer did the same. Equally I could wish that many a leftie who shares Sizer's loathing for Israel showed some tolerance for the rest of us.

So ... I don't agree for an instant with Sizer's political views; but I defend to the last his right to express them.

Whether he is wise to do so; whether any Christian should put his political opinions ahead of promoting the gospel; whether encouraging attacks on Israel is something anybody is wise to do; that's another matter.

But to launch a witchhunt over politics? Ew. Leave that the left, and their bully-boys. Let's confront these kinds of tactics, not emulate them.

20 August 2013 18:25  
Blogger Drastic Plastic said...

"Once the Moslems conquer Israel, they'll be so emboldened that there'll be no stopping them short of World War III"

Agreed. Although the real problem is the Left importing hordes of them here. The idea of WW3 with Islam doesn't trouble me -- we can manufacture enough bullets for that -- but the leftie fifth-columnists among us, undermining our will to fight, demanding that we don't even criticise Islam; plus, of course, the enemies they have brought in to hide among us. But if we could deal with the treacherous left, the rest would pose no problems.

20 August 2013 18:28  
Blogger John Wrake said...

Your Grace,
Many comments on this post home in on the matter of free speech, which is all very healthy, but no-one, it seems to me, wishes to comment on the matter of Church discipline in the Church of England.

It would appear that the sole source of discipline these days is confined to the quasi-civil servants who operate on the Synods or in Dioscesan offices, usually on the legal side.

It's O.K. for Bishops, Deans and parish clergy to ignore their oaths of office, or promulgate heresy of all sorts and sizes, ignore the Bible but issue portentous statements on foreign policy or the merits of fracking, but try doing something without the necessary faculty and see how you get on.

we are very clear of the dangers which result when parents fail to teach their children the necessity of discipline. Isn't it time the shepherds began to exercise a bit of discipline, themselves.

20 August 2013 19:09  
Blogger Peter D said...

Ummmm ..... I think there are separate issues here.

Naomi King said ...
"That sin of replacement theology is alive and well in the training schools of the Anglican Church I fear."

IanCad said ...
"So, those who do not accept that Jerusalem will be the at centre of end times events. Do not believe that the temple will be rebuilt,and cast doubt on the inventions of the Dispensationalists are now held as sinners?"

Jesuestomihi said...
"Christian Zionism was, is and ever shall be true orthodoxy."

I support the state of Israel defending itself and securing its future safety. I also believe Islam at its core is destructive and needs halting in its tracks - worldwide.

However, I reject the notions of 'Christian Zionism' or 'Messianic Jews' and the idea that the secular state of Israel will eventually result in a Third Temple and all that this entails; then, miraculously, the Jews convert to Christianity - before or after or coterminous with Christ's return. In its own dishonest way this is, if not anti-Semitic, certainly anti-Jewish to me.

20 August 2013 19:15  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Well, I'm sure glad David Kavanagh couldn't be bothered to respond to me. Otherwise he might have said something stupid and banal like "the west should give even more of its money to prop up us Zionists because the Palestinians, Syrians, Egyptians etc are even worse than we are". Oh, wait a minute.....

20 August 2013 19:56  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Corrigan, how did you end up in Islam’s pocket ? You never did say…

Malcolm Muggeridge was a great man for the fledgling Soviet Union. Then he went there…

20 August 2013 20:08  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Feel free to join us back on Planet Earth, Inspector. I don't distinguish between Israel and the Muslims. Each is as dangerous to what's left of the west as the other. I just don't see why we're propping it up over and above the Arab kleptocracies. Ditch 'em both. If you weren't worrying about Israel, you might have more time to spend baiting the ploughmen over at Pink News.

20 August 2013 20:16  
Blogger Peter D said...

Corrigan

"We are where we are ..." and its pointless banging on about how we got here.

Bottom-line - if your only choice of where to live is: Iran, Syria, Libya, Egypt or Israel where would you go?

Suicide is not an option.

20 August 2013 20:17  
Blogger Peter D said...

Corrigan
"baiting the ploughmen over at Pink News."

Do not besmirch the GOOD name of ploughmen. Ireland's future was secured by young and merry (not *gay*) ploughboys!

And the Inspector is on a strict PN free diet.

20 August 2013 20:26  
Blogger IanCad said...

OIG,

Funny you should mention Muggeridge. I also re-read his "Confessions of a Twentieth Century Pilgrim" on my recent dull voyage.

Regarding those who then, as now, worship at the throne of all things progressive allow me to share this lengthy quote:

"They are unquestionably one of the marvels of the age; the spectacle is unforgettable of them travelling with radiant optimism through a famished countryside, wandering in happy bands about squalid, overcrowded towns, listening with unshakeable faith to the outpourings of carefully trained Intourist guides, repeating, like school children their multiplication tables, the bogus statistics and monotonous slogans that are fed interminably to Soviet citizens. There, no doubt, some office-holder in the League of Nations; there a godly Quaker who once had tea with Ghandi; there an inveigher against the Blasphemy Laws; there a staunch upholder of free-speech and free-trade; there a preventer of cruelty to animals; there scarred and worthy veterans of a hundred battles for truth, peace and freedom, all chanting the virtues of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, and of Stalin as its most gracious and beloved figurehead. It was as though a Salvation Army contingent had turned out with bands and banners in honour of some ferocious tribal deity, or as though a vegetarian society had issued a passionate plea for cannibalism"

Splendid writing. Nothing changes. They are with us yet.

20 August 2013 20:40  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Corrigan, so you’re a freebooter, a privateer then. To dish out disdain to both interested parties. In roughly equal measure, at least in theory. It was roughly equal measure, the original intention, wasn’t it ?

This august blog will have to do without a sentinel keeping an eye on Big Gay as it all became a bit too much for this Christian Crusader. (Am recovering in one's beloved Lake District, on a PC held together with string amd sticky tape). Vacancy there for a correspondent to be filled, if you want a rest from rubbishing the west’s firewall in the middle east…

20 August 2013 20:50  
Blogger IanCad said...

Peter D,

You make a very good point @19:15.
The Dispensationalist theology is, in a way, anti-semetic. If their particular interpretation of prophecy fails to soon measure up who will the gnashing of teeth be practised on?

20 August 2013 20:58  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Carl. The excellent Muggeridge made such a massive impression on this then schoolboy in the 1970s. Frequently on British television in quality debates at a time when there was only the three channels to choose from. He became a national figure through that.

It was so easy then, to be introduced to such intellect at an early age. Pity the young of today. What have they other than ghastly celebs. One weeps for them in their albeit happy ignorance…

20 August 2013 21:28  
Blogger Peter D said...

IanCad
I have to say, what with your posts and David Hussell's contributions on the thread below, my opinion on world wide Anglicans is changing - albeit slowly.

Pope Francis would be proud of me!

Are you an Anglican? I do get confused about this and really it ought not matter as when we get down to brass tacks you're all heretics really ;O)!

Cue: Martin, Carl, Len or Ernsty - where is that old chap?

20 August 2013 21:31  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

I am astounded at the mainstream Church's apparent ignorance of biblical prophecy concerning Israel. Also, the not unrelated refusal to preach about the return of Christ and the Judgment.

Do the liberal softies in the Church think that if we can stop climate change and introduce equality and diversity regulations globally that the decreed End will be averted? Mercy me, some of them seem more concerned about fracking and badgers than the hourly murders of our brothers and sisters in Christ and the growing hate against Israel. I can't remember the last time I heard a sermon about the return of the Lord apart from Hal Lindsay videos on YouTube. When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies......

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

20 August 2013 21:58  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

Agreed sir.

20 August 2013 22:00  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr IanCad, some excellent posts @ 14.10 & 20.40. You may have been bored silly by your Nordic ordeal but you have survived to return refreshed and invigorated!

20 August 2013 22:04  
Blogger Naomi King said...

IanCad said...@18:23
"Now, Now, Naomi, It is not sinful to understand the Word of God in a way that does not square with your interpretation. I do not suggest that you are sinful because you reason differently. Kindly offer me the same courtesy."

IanCad it is not a case of "interpretation" or "different reasoning" at all. The New Testament is entirely clear that God has not finished with the Jewish people and they are the wild olive root onto which the gentile Church is grafted.

"But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. I say then, HATH GOD CAST AWAY HIS PEOPLE ? GOD FORBID. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. GOD HATH NOT CAST AWAY HIS PEOPLE WHICH HE FOREKNEW. ... Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. ... What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, HAVE THEY STUMBLED THAT THEY SHOULD FALL ? GOD FORBID: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; HOW MUCH MORE THEIR FULNESS ?

Cont...

20 August 2013 22:40  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Cont

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. BE NOT HIGHMINDED, BUT FEAR: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. AND IF THEY ALSO IF THEY ABIDE NOT STILL IN UNBELIEF, SHALL BE GRAFTED IN: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? FOR I WOULD NOT, BRETHREN, THAT YE SHOULD BE IGNORANCE OF THIS MYSTERY, LEST YE SHOULD WISE IN YOUR OWN CONCEITS; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. AND SO ALL SO ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: AS IT IS WRITTEN, THERE SHALL COME OUT OF ZION THE DELIVERER AND SHALL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but AS TOUCHING THE ELECTION, THEY ARE BELOVED FOR THE FATHER'S SAKES. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."

Roman's Chapter's 10 and 11.

As Rambling Steve Appleseed says "I am astounded at the mainstream Church's apparent ignorance of biblical prophecy concerning Israel. Also, the not unrelated refusal to preach about the return of Christ and the Judgment."

20 August 2013 22:40  
Blogger Peter D said...

Naomi
"I am astounded at the mainstream Church's apparent ignorance of biblical prophecy concerning Israel. Also, the not unrelated refusal to preach about the return of Christ and the Judgment."

Yes but some "mainstream churches" and Christians interpret things rather differently.

No one disputes the Jews have a place in future salvation history. Every passage you cite supporting your particular interpretation of Scripture can be disputed and countered by passages offering a different understanding.

Tell me, do the Jews know Christian Zionists support them because they believe their conversion to Christianity is considered a prerequisite of Christ's return?

20 August 2013 23:56  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

Peter, you may have read something into my post that I didn't intend, and I don't think your assessment of the motives of Christian Zionists is entirely accurate.

I support the state of Israel (without necessarily approving all of its deeds) because I am certain that God intended the re-establishment of Israel as part of his plan for the world. I do not want to be found opposing God.

I also support Israel because I note the unholy alliance of secularists and Muhammadans against her.

21 August 2013 06:35  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

There is a link between Israel and Christ's return. As a minimum, the rebirth of Israel had to happen before the Second Coming, as it is prophecied.

Israel is a sign to the nations of the world that God knows the end from the beginning. No other people group in the world's history has been scattered from its ancient homeland, maintsined their identity and prospered despite persecution, then after two millennia to return to their homeland against sll odds. And all of this was clearly prophecied, notably in Isaiah but triangulated in many other OT prophets, and happened with the whole world watching.

The history of Israel provides unparralelled evidence for the God of Abraham, Moses, Isaiah and Jesus. No wonder that the enemies of the Gospel hate Israel.

21 August 2013 06:48  
Blogger Nick said...

It is deplorable that the CofE is procrastinating over the Stephen Sizer case. I haven't had much time to check his website as I'm on holiday right now, but what I am hearing confirms my suspicion that the CoE is going rotten from the inside.

There is a tendency among Britons to support the pyerceived underdog. Inthis case it is the Palestinians. That support is reinforced by pro-Palestinian reporting by the BBC, C4, and others. What nobody seems to ponder is what would happen if the Palestinians got access to heavy weaponry such as tanks and aircraft. There would be no self-defence in that case. The forces of Allah would replay the holocaust. Thank God they don't have such eeapons and pray it dtays that way

Corrigan
You can pick up your AK-47 and go and fight for Allah if you wish. When they finished slaughtering every Jew on the planet, they will thank you by seperating your head from your body infront of a cheering crowd with mobile phones.

21 August 2013 07:57  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Peter @ 21:31

You ought to do your version of Dante, and assign various blog contributors to their place in the 'Inferno'.

The Inspector, I imagine (unless he stays on his diet) would be somewhere in the upper reaches; while the bad boys - Carl, Len, Martin - would be way down there, among the sowers of discord. (Not Ernsty, because he has a great cat.)

The middle-way lot would be... well, somehwere in the middle.

Where the rest would be, I leave up to you.

21 August 2013 08:40  
Blogger LEN said...

Stephen Sizer is an absolute disgrace he is one of the 'false shepherds 'Christians are warned about in Scripture.

21 August 2013 08:56  
Blogger Preacher said...

Many Wolves are prowling among the flock, Preaching a message of a soft cuddly God, who wouldn't send anyone who rejects His love to an eternal place of separation from Him.
They believe in a universal salvation which if true would not need Christ to suffer as he did. The fly in the ointment is the God of the O.T who makes it quite clear that He WILL sit in judgement on the nations. Thus they have to separate the Old from the New Testament.
This Liberal stance was summed up some time ago in the saying " A God without Wrath, calls men without sin, into a Kingdom without judgement, through Christ without a Cross".

21 August 2013 09:02  
Blogger IanCad said...

Naomi,

To C&P large portions of sripture (it reads better in the KJV) may serve as the foundation of this debate but it in no wise serves as an endorsement for Dispensationalist dogma.

A heavy day is looming and while C&P from previous discussions is generally considered bad form I will have to resort to that expedient.

Courtesy of HG's archives; from a little over a year ago:

"That the Jewish people have survived and thrived is evidence of God's miraculous protection over them.
The Abrahamic covenant was partialy fulfilled in the times of King David and King Solomon; and further confirmed in the sacrifice of Christ.
All covenants are conditional. There is no "if" in the Abrahamic, granted, but Deutronomy chap.28 clarifies the woes that will befall those who violate God's Law.
All Christian teaching should be anchored on the words of Jesus in John 14:6. "--- no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
There is no "get out of jail free card," We have the free will to accept or reject this teaching.
The Jewish people are looking for a saviour who has already come. It is a sad fact that most Jewish religious studies are based on the Talmud and not the Old Testament. This makes it very difficult to spread the Gospel message to these wonderful people. They are truly an "astonishment" and a "byword."
True, America has been a supporter of the State of Israel from its creation. However, this early support was prompted by an urgent need to redress the shameful act of turning away the MS. St. Louis in nineteen thirty nine. Most American support of Israel today that does not stem from equity is rooted in the theology of the modern dispensationalists.
There is nothing new under the sun. The teachings of John Darby and the Plymouth Bretheren are just a later iteration of an old theological theory which has been bandied about for millenia. It is from this denomination that most of the modern dispensationalists claim their roots.
Ernst, I have several times meant to respond to your many informative posts. You have greatly enlightened me with some of the hidden gems from the early church writers. Strange, I thank you now through a thread on which we hold opposing views."

"With Carl Jacobs posting so much sense on matters Spiritual and historic I can only comment on the issue of semantics.
The term "Replacement Theology" has acquired a perjorative dimension tending to stifle rational debate with those who hold that the Nation of Israel has no further role in God's plan of redemption.
Much as in academia the term "Global Warming Denier" automatically consigns the holder of such a view to neanderthal status; RT does the same in religious matters by implying that those who support the hypothesis are "Anti-Semites" or "Nascent Nazis."
The eschatological meanderings of Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye (author of the Left Behind" books) have had a toxic effect not only on American Christians but also on their foreign policy. A huge number of conservative evangelicals swallow the dispensationalist fallacy that includes an unbiblical "Rapture" and the centrality of the Nation of Israel to end time events.
It should be noted that this teaching was initially espoused by, of all people, the "Plymouth Bretheren."

Contd.

21 August 2013 09:21  
Blogger IanCad said...

Contd.

"You are a busy man and obviously spend much time researching and quoting. I am trying to digest all of your posts of today but I will respond briefly to the 13:55 one.
The Scriptures define Israel in many, many verses. In addition to the ones already cited by others on this thread let me add a few more.
Romans 11:17-24 The olive tree represents the faithful Israelites who were still true to the God of their Fathers. The unbelieving Jews (Branches) were broken off. The believing Gentiles were the wild olive shoots grafted in their place. Natural branches (The Jews) who spurned their faith could be grafted back again. "for God has the power to graft them in again"
That the Gentiles should be "--fellow heirs--" is shown in Ephesians 3:6. That they are"no longer strangers and sojourners" but "fellow citizens with saints and members of the household of God" is made plain in Ephesians 2:12, 19.
Exodus 19:5,6. is echoed in 1 Peter 2:9, 10. "A royal priesthood; A Holy nation; A peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light"

Sorry to short cut you here Naomi if the thread is still alive I will add more later.

21 August 2013 09:23  
Blogger Naomi King said...


Eminent as His Grace is I would have hoped to see citation from the Holy Scriptures to support the replacement theology argument as I am not aware of any.

As I said, in a comment on a recent post, "The Church of England has completely lost it's moral way, having taken up most if not all of the views of the world and abandoned, lost or forgotten the Holy Scriptures, it's touchstone along the way. Is it surprising she is now an object of contempt and a easy target to the Godless with her view that, "You can do as you like and we will love you" and "You can live as you like and you will go to heaven" ? I think not. The Godless might not be so loveable when they do what the Muslims are doing to Christians in Egypt these days.

And as Preacher said...@9:02
Many Wolves are prowling among the flock, Preaching a message of a soft cuddly God, who wouldn't send anyone who rejects His love to an eternal place of separation from Him. They believe in a universal salvation which if true would not need Christ to suffer as he did. The fly in the ointment is the God of the Old Testament who makes it quite clear that He WILL sit in judgement on the nations. Thus they have to separate the Old from the New Testament. This Liberal stance was summed up some time ago in the saying " A God without Wrath, calls men without sin, into a Kingdom without judgement, through Christ without a Cross".

Such a "comfortable", if going to hell world view denies that "ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: AS IT IS WRITTEN, THERE SHALL COME OUT OF ZION THE DELIVERER AND SHALL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB:" and "Ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? THIS SAME JESUS, which is taken up from you into heaven, SHALL SO COME IN LIKE MANNER AS YE HAVE SEEN HIM GO INTO HEAVEN.

Beware 'Men of God' that you have not fallen into your own conceits "FOR I WOULD NOT, BRETHREN, THAT YE SHOULD BE IGNORANCE OF THIS MYSTERY, LEST YE SHOULD WISE IN YOUR OWN CONCEITS".

21 August 2013 09:57  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Ah yes Explorer, the Inferno. A book that is crying out for update to reflect today’s sophisticate world.. One thinks we can now dispense with the just reward of wicked popes of medieval, and discuss the clergy who do a deal with God. The clergy who hide behind a vocation to guide the sheep to further their own selfish desires.

And the abortionists, and the cult of sodomy. In the latter case, we can be assured the afflicted are moaning in agony on this earth. They are huddled together at Pink News – home of the near insane and deluded. No, the judgement awaiting and the punishment thereof are the politicians who are wilfully abetting the corrupting of God’s natural order.

And the human rightists, who reward evil-doers by protecting them from prosecution. Them who argue for a right to a family life for those who destroy other men’s families.

And the pornographers, the paedophiles, the illegal drug pushers, the feminists…

And those born agains who would deny the Christ to other ‘lesser’ men…

21 August 2013 10:32  
Blogger Jesuestomihi said...

Was it Damian who said that everyone has the right to free speech?
The only freedom that Christians and especially christian leaders have is that to speak freely by the power of the Holy Spirit. THose who curse ( as in revile, insult, or slight the Jews) shall be cursed (spat- out, utterly rejected,condemned) by God- check your Hebrew bible if you do not believe me. Anyway the important thing is not to engage in futile intellectual point scoring but to understand what the Spirit is saying to the Churches in these days. We wallow around in ineffectivness and irrelevance wishing that God would show up ( as we suspect He did during the mid 19th century revival when ourchurches were built- and Zionism was Orthodoxy) in His shekinah glory to utterly convince the world of the gospel. But such a manifestations belong to the Jews - not us!( See Romans 9 v1-6). Gentile Christians can access this power only if we accept that we are younger brothers, branches of an older root stock. It is hard for Greek educated rationalists to understand but that is just the way God has made it to be. Shalom everyone

21 August 2013 10:37  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

21 August 2013 10:56  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Sorry Peter D., I didn't mean to start him off again.

I even refrained from referring to the nature of his diet!

21 August 2013 11:06  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Carl @ 20th August 12:47

Yeah, you're doin' great, Carl! Great! I'm amazed that such a self-evident solution hasn't been implemented already.

I'm disappointed Corrigan hasn't been back to you to congratulate you. It might be that he's spotted a glitch or two that we've missed, but he doesn't want to dampen your new-found convictions.

21 August 2013 13:29  
Blogger IanCad said...

Thanks for the kind words and encouragement bluedog.
I must say, I am absolutely cream crackered after the ordeal. Am I the only poerson to get jet lag on a ship in one time zone?

21 August 2013 14:15  
Blogger Gregory Morris said...

I am a dyed in the wool PB who plays the hymns on a proper organ in an Anglican Church. I was brought up on the teachings of JND(arby) and other dispensationalists. But I have to say that I never once heard any endorsement of the policies and practices of the modern State of Israel. Indeed the consensus among Brethren of all sorts and conditions is that Israel is in unbelief awaiting a period of divine judgement, revelation and salvation when she will see and believe on the one who was crucified at Calvary as her saviour.

Then I believe righteousness will flow out of Zion. Not that that will enlighten the Islamists who will doubtless gnash their teeth and redouqble their efforts against her. 'Tis not far off the hour.

21 August 2013 21:58  
Blogger Peter D said...

IanCad
"I must say, I am absolutely cream crackered after the ordeal. Am I the only poerson to get jet lag on a ship in one time zone?"

That's what being in the close, constant company of a woman will do - and on a ship too. Every man needs space away from his dearly beloved. Even Adam had his walks with God and his day job to keep him occupied.

You have my sympathies.

21 August 2013 23:14  
Blogger Naomi King said...


IanCad - I would be still be glad to learn of your Holy Scriptural authority for the false and demonic doctrine of "replacement theology" for I believe there is none.

22 August 2013 08:31  
Blogger Naomi King said...


And to follow the thread through, when you turn to the gospels you discover Jesus as a man, who we’re told was born to bring division, and who would be the cause of the destruction and salvation of many people (Luke 2:34; 12:51; Matt.10:34). You discover a man who spoke the truth and spoke up publicly against hypocrisy calling the religious leaders in his day snakes fit for hell, and decomposing corpses that stunk and polluted others (Matt.3:7; 23:27, 33). You discover a man who thought his disciples were slow and let them know about it (Matt.17:17). You discover a man who threatened judgment to those who were spiritual unfruitfulness (Luke 13:6-9). You discover a man who got physical when he saw God’s name dishonored (Mark.11:15-17). The Bible’s picture of Jesus is one of a man who openly confronted lies and deception, who spoke the truth boldly, who spoke up against hypocrisy, who spoke judgment, who wasn’t afraid to embarrass those who deserved it, who jealously acted to guard God’s honor, and who wasn’t trying to please everyone. Jesus was no milksop, he wasn’t a sensitive, "nurturing" new age guy, and he wasn’t a bearded woman. In fact, in the last book of the Bible, Jesus is portrayed as a divine warrior who initiates God’s final salvation and judgment (Rev.19:11-21)

22 August 2013 08:48  
Blogger LEN said...

The Inspector states ' And those born agains who would deny the Christ to other ‘lesser’ men…'

I assumed the Inspector to be of reasonable intelligence but I am beginning to doubt my assumption,or is it just pride which leads him to disregard or to even deny a direct command from the Lord Jesus Christ "You Must be born again"

Or perhaps the Inspector knows better than the Lord?.

22 August 2013 09:20  
Blogger Richard Armbach said...

I see that Rev Nick is now writing his Grace's scripts for him as well as for the CCJ and the BoD.
http://hurryupharriet.wordpress.com/how-it-came-about/

22 August 2013 09:38  
Blogger IanCad said...

Gregory Morris,

An excellent post if I may say so, and straight from the horse's mouth.

As you know probably know, along with PB leading light Abraham Darby, the Presbyterian Cyrus Scofeld are considered founders of the Modern Diispensationalist factions.
Of course the Reformed churches would like to disown Schofield for stirring up such a movement as the Disps have become; and I'm sure you must be dismayed at seeing your church being drawn into a controversy that is really the result of others picking up the ball and running with it to a place unintended.

22 August 2013 10:07  
Blogger Huldah said...

"Dr Sizer writes of 'Israel's apartheid colonialist agenda' and 'Israel's racist and apartheid policies.' "

Try saying that Israel is an apartheid state to, let's say Dr. Masad Barhoum, Director of the Western Galilee Hospital, or Bahij Mansour,Druze Head of Religion in the Diaspora division of the Israeli, Foreign Ministry, Ishmael Khaldi, Bedouin who has held a series of senior Israeli ambassadorial and Foreign Ministry posts or Forsan Hussein, Director of the YMCA in Jerusalem.

Dr Sizer's claims are simply untrue.

22 August 2013 10:25  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Peter D,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. Been in hospital for the last couple of days. To address your point, out of that lot, then obviously the answer has to be Israel. None of which invalidates the core of my problem with that country. Indeed, the very fact that you would so disingenuously couch your question in the terms you did indicates to me that you know exactly where I'm coming from, but as an Israeli apologist, you are following the Zionist playbook and distracting the issue.

I'k like you to follow this link.

http://sig.ville.gouv.fr/Atlas/ZUS/

This is a French Government website, listing towns, locations and specific streets, complete with detailed accompanying maps, of what are known as zones urbaines sensibles, or areas of special sensitivity. Essentially, they are areas which are under Sharia law, and to all intents and purposes, they are not under the control of the French state. To an extent, the same is happening in Britain, particularly in London, where in many areas, Kuffirs are being hounded out of their homes, women not wearing veils are risking physical assault and anyone with a crucifix round their neck is asking for a kicking. Unfortunately, Islam has very bad form in this area. It advances until it is stopped, and stopping Islam is something you do with force. It stops when it is physically stopped, and if it isn't physically stopped, then it doesn't stop at all.

So why, then, have I got a problem with the Israelis? Two reasons. The first, minor reason, is because as a general rule of thumb, the Zionists are as contemptuous of the west as Muslims are, and are not minded to do us any favours. Sure, they'll take western money, western arms, western support, but having taken it, they don't feel in the least obligated to give anything in return. Why should they? Westerners, generally speaking, have peed on their culture, birthright and heritage, and dogs like that deserve nothing (more or less the same attitude as the Muslims)

The second problem is more immediate. The entire basis of western support for Israel is based on two legs: one is heretical, endtimes claptrap from our theologically challanged fundamentelist brethren, mostly in the States, but with outliers here in Europe, some of whom post on this board; the other is the dangerous, indeed cretinous, notion that "my enemy's enemy is my friend. If there is a more perilous course Europe could go than this, I don't know what it is.

As a Catholic, with the sense of culture and history which Muslims, correctly, assume is all to rare in Europeans, I make no apologies eg for the Crusades, because I know (as stated above) that Islam only stops when it is physically stopped, and only withdraws when it is physically hurled out. The problem is, in the past, Europeans - for which read "Catholics" - did it for themselves; we didn't rely on an entity whose people are as contemptuous of us as those who present the immediate danger. In short, we didn't rely on mercenaries.

The west has gone soft, and paying the bloody Israelis to fight our battles for us won't solve our problems. If anything, it will actually make it worse, since association with such a rotten entity will only strengthen Islam which, whatever else it is, is single-minded and (in the neutral sense of the word) pure. The fault, Peter, lies not in the middle-east, but in ourselves.

22 August 2013 11:59  
Blogger IanCad said...

Naomi King wrote:

"the false and demonic doctrine of replacement theology"

Goodness Me Naomi! you do like to harp on the term "Replacement Theology." You are using it as if it were a label that had some meaning. It dosen't. It is used by the Militant Dispensationalists to perjure those who do not hold to the teachings of the Hal Lindsays, Jerry Falwells and Tim Lahayes of this world.

You are slandering those (the majority) among the Reformed churches who hold to a different view of eschatology than yours.

In my two posts of yesterday @ 09:21/23 ample Biblical texts were presented. Here's another:

Ephesians 3:6--

"That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel"

Where do you get "Replacement" out of that?

Anti-Semitic? False and Demonic??!!

22 August 2013 12:42  
Blogger IanCad said...

Peter D wrote:

"--Every man needs space away from his dearly beloved. Even Adam had his walks with God and his day job to keep him occupied."

Brilliant!! But somehow I don't think Momma will buy it.

22 August 2013 14:31  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

22 August 2013 14:43  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Fascinating discussion...wish I had more time. Perhaps this evening.

Ah, Corrigan, still trying to sell us...and your own befuddled goyishe kopf... on your supposed objective, justice-inspired defense of the indefensible. In any case, hoping your stay and the veterinarian's wasn't for anything serious...or, perish the thought, a circumcision. But seriously; רפואה שלמה, a speedy and full recovery, be well and feel better.

22 August 2013 14:52  
Blogger IanCad said...

"--or, perish the thought, a circumcision.--"

Very, very funny!

All the best wishes to you Corrigan.

22 August 2013 14:54  
Blogger Peter D said...

Corrigan
Now you know full well I am not an apologist for the Israeli State nor subscribe to the ideas of the dispensationalists.

However, I do think the West should stand with Israel against Islam. Not because I agree with the way that State came into existence or because I agree with Israeli politics at home or abroad.

22 August 2013 23:08  
Blogger Peter D said...

Ps ... I hope you are in good health now.

22 August 2013 23:13  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

23 August 2013 10:03  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Corrigan,

Trust you are recovering OK.

Well, I couldn't be bothered to tackle those specific points as they- as you revealed to Peter D, to rest purely on the apologetic of the Catholicism being the bee all and end all of 'western civilisation'. If you are a supporter of the crusades, please do tell that to the Isalamists who rail against 'zionist-crusaders' etc.

However, if you are now saying you are neutral in this conflict, as opposed to seeing the Israelis as a colonial force (your prior and consistent argument here), I was wondering if you'd at least acknowledge the fact that Israel is engaged in a peace process and is indeed discussing this with the Americans and the Palastinians.

I would also note, that in 2000 there was a 99% chance of some kind of peace treaty going through, with massive concessions by the Israelis, especially on Jerusalem. Yet the Arabs decided to throw that back at the Israelis faces and decided instead to launch a terrorist campaign... is there any wonder whilst most Israelis want a peace treaty, with people like that to negotiate with that there hasn't been much achievement in 13 years?

23 August 2013 10:10  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

David, the only weakness in your post is your assumption that Corrigan gives two hoots for the Palestinians beyond their use as dumb bludgeon against the Jewish State.

23 August 2013 12:02  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Avi,

Fair point. Corrigan has admitted he doesn't care about Jews or Arabs in the latest thread. I wonder why, then, he keeps 99.9999% of his vitriol for Israeli Jews and why he even has a 'dumb bludgeon' against Israel?

23 August 2013 12:15  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

PS, Avi, least you think I am dumb peacenik, I wouldn't be in favour of surrendering Jerusalem to anyone. But it does prove to Corrigan, that Israelis have bent over backwards to meet 'Palestinian' demands over the years (met with rebuttal and more war each time, I might add).

23 August 2013 12:17  
Blogger LEN said...

It will be quite a revelation for some of those anti semitics and those 'Christians ' who actively oppose God`s plans for His Nation Israel when one day they meet the Jewish Jesus.(Yes Jesus is Jewish and will remain forever 'the Lion of Judah')
Not to mention meeting all of the Apostles and the Patriarchs.

"Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; and one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals."


Genesis 49:9-10, Amos 3:8, Revelation 5:4-5

23 August 2013 18:02  
Blogger Naomi King said...


Ian Cad your position is ridiculous the Holy Scriptures nowhere state that the congregation of believers in the Jewish Messiah Jesus Christ of which you and I are members 'replace' God's covenant to his chosen people the Hebrews. Rather we are grafted in as a fulfilment of the new covenant. I don't see that your chosen Scriptures say anything other than this.

Why anyone would choice to follow "those who hold to the teachings of the Hal Lindsays, the Jerry Falwells and the Tim Lahayes of this world" and not the clear words of our LORD and the clear teaching of both the Old and New Testament is beyond understanding. For me Chapters 10 and 11 of Roman's, very rarely preached upon, tell the whole story.

As the Middle East rips itself apart, how can anyone who claims to follow Jesus Christ and read their Bibles be ignorant of the spiritual forces at work here?. We clearly see the apostasy of much of western Christendom in this replacement theology approach, which is the work of the devil, be not deceived upon this.

And yes the "reformed church" is in error on this as it is on sodomy and on feminization and in other areas where it has ceased to believe in the clear Word of God.

24 August 2013 12:03  

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