Tuesday, August 27, 2013

God is a Liberal Democrat?


From Mr Alexander Boot:

Whenever complacency sets in and one begins to think one has heard everything, our politicians provide an instant cure. Especially when God Almighty comes up in conversation.

Exponents of vile political creeds have always tried to co-opt the deity to their cause. For example, in1794, having murdered hundreds of thousands, France’s Committee of Public Safety decreed worship of a Supreme Being.

This wasn’t the personal God of the Christians, you understand, but the Cartesian clock-winder, the hands-off chap who got the world going and then lost all interest. He then regained some of it when, according to Robespierre, the time came to do mass murder:

“Is it not he whose immortal hand, engraving on the heart of man the code of justice and equality, has written there the death sentence of tyrants?” Of course it is. Who else could have possibly inspired Robespierre and his friends to drown the Vendée in blood and wipe out whole social classes?

Then back in the ‘60s we were told that Jesus was a revolutionary, a sort of Che Guevara of Galilee. Didn’t Jesus say, “I came not to send peace, but a sword”? There you go then: Jesus came with a sword, so did Che. What other proof do you need? They are both revolutionaries.

Yet the contemporaneous flower children disagreed. Jesus, according to them, taught making not war, but love. God is love, isn’t he? So is sex. Ergo, syllogistically speaking, God is sex. Every time we go at it like rabbits we assert our faith.

Hopeless reactionaries among you may feel that such lines of thought are somewhat remiss in theological subtlety. But that only goes to show that you (and, regretfully, I) are fossils who don’t belong in the modern world.

If you have doubts on that score, the point was made abundantly clear by Minister of State for Pensions Steve Webb. In his introduction to the book Liberal Democrats Do God, Steve claimed God is a fully paid-up member of his party.

“The most fundamental reason why Christians should feel at home in the Liberal Democrats is that the character of God, as revealed in the Christian Gospel, would suggest that God must be a liberal,” wrote Steve. “This assertion will shock or offend some, but I believe that there is no other conclusion that can be drawn from a reading of the New Testament.”

Much as I hate to disappoint any of our rulers, I feel neither shocked nor offended. My feeling is more akin to that of stepping into something disgusting on a pavement, especially on a hot day.

The stench became even stronger when the Tory MP Jacob Rees-Mogg countered that “God is a Somerset Conservative”. At least some of his tongue was in cheek, which wasn’t the case with Steve Webb.

What’s really worrying is that he was dead serious when writing this drivel: “Those who recognise in the Gospel a deep reverence for human freedom and self-determination will find a natural home in the Liberal Democrats.”

Supporting this vulgarity even on its own terms would require all the mental agility for which our politicians are so justly famous. Even that faculty would come up short without the help of another one with which they are so richly endowed: mendacity.

The LibDems are, not to cut too fine a point, socialists. As such, they support and preach the very opposite of “human freedom and self-determination”.

The defining urge of all socialists is to increase the power of the state over the individual. To that end the LibDems have always come out in favour of extortionist redistributive taxation and ad infinitum growth of government bureaucracy (Steve Webb, for example, voted for increasing the rate of VAT).

At the same time the LibDems are doctrinally committed to undermining England’s ancient constitution, the time-proven guarantor of the very freedom Webb extols. Thus he voted for removing hereditary peers from the House of Lords and making that chamber wholly elected.

While they are at it, the LibDems seek to destroy every institution on which our liberties and “self-determination” rest. The family, for example, is the traditional first line of defence against tyranny. Hence our champions of the Christian notion of freedom (including Steve Webb!) supported the anti-family homomarriage bill with unrelenting enthusiasm.

At the same time, the LibDems express their commitment to national self-determination by scheming to turn Britain into a province of the European Union. Given half the chance, they’d draw us into the euro even now, when the calamitous consequences of this are clear to anyone without obvious learning difficulties.

It’s no wonder that the party is led by a proud, self-proclaimed atheist. What is somewhat surprising is Steve Webb’s sheer bold-faced effrontery.

Do what you must, chaps, go on destroying everything that makes England England. You have the power to do so, and no one who reads the papers will deny you have the inclination.

But please, please leave God alone. He operates in a realm infinitely higher than the one in which you play your silly little games.

This isn’t something you can understand, so concentrate on things that come naturally. Like talking gibberish on every subject in His creation.

Alexander Boot is a writer on political, cultural and religious themes

45 Comments:

Blogger The Explorer said...

A classic case of recreating God in one's own image, and leaving out the messy bits that don't fit.

27 August 2013 at 10:08  
Blogger David B said...

This Liberal Democrat doesn't do God.

But then I am a secularist as well as an atheist and a liberal democrat, and with that all parties would stop favouring any particular God over any other Gods or none, or Gods in general above no God. Or, indeed, No God over God.

Leave religion out of politics!

David

David

27 August 2013 at 10:17  
Blogger JohnH said...

Funny thing; I missed the bit about "human freedom and self-determination" in my reading of the New Testament.

Another funny thing is that in his letter to the Colossians, Paul explicitly instructs slaves to obey their earthly masters. I wonder how that ties up with human freedom and self-determination?

27 August 2013 at 10:42  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

God and politics - isn't this that is driving the unrest in the middle-east? Leave it out.

27 August 2013 at 11:05  
Blogger Nick said...

I am neither shocked nor offended. What the story highlights for me is the sheer ignorance some people have of Christian beliefs. Being Christian isn't just about "knowing things". It isn't just about reading the Bible. It is also very much about attitude. Read the Bible with a secualr mindset, like some commentators on this blog, and you are guaranteed to misunderstand it. This seems to be one way God seperates the sheep from the goats: "Whoever has ears, let them hear."

Steve Webb is of course talking out of his posterior orifice. He does not know God, so he is inventing his own idol based on political ideas. It's a kind of intellectual golden calf. There will sadly be some idiots who will believe him and share in his enslavement to idolatry.



27 August 2013 at 11:12  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Excellent article Alexander Boot, so many thanks for it.

Shall we all change the altar cloths to yellow, do you think ? Such twisting of the truth, amazing ! It is so sad it is also amusing, in a sick sort of way. Anything for a vote or a new party member, eh ?

I am no longer young but even so the lows that politicians stoop to continue to surprise me. It is no wonder that few bother to vote even in GE, especially amongst the young who have only see politics at its current low ebb.

It is the attacks from the socialist ideas, now embedded in all three main parties, on freedom, family, faith and nationhood that are eating the heart out of our once great country. I weep but also do what little I can.


27 August 2013 at 11:13  
Blogger IanCad said...

Good one Mr. Boot

The madness never ends.
I was raised in a Marxist home. We attended C of E services on a more or less regular basis.
The justification for which, was, that the teachings of Jesus significantly reflected those of Marx!!

27 August 2013 at 11:15  
Blogger David B said...

I'd like to visit one piece of particularly arrant nonsense from the OP.

"The LibDems are, not to cut too fine a point, socialists. As such, they support and preach the very opposite of “human freedom and self-determination”.

The defining urge of all socialists is to increase the power of the state over the individual."

Very much an absolutist POV, with no shades of grey.

To illustrate my point let us use the same logic but change some variables.

"The Conservatives are, not to cut too fine a point, libertarians. As such, they support and preach the very opposite of social concern and fellowship

The defining urge of all libertarians is to increase the power of the individual to the point that there is no room for the state."

Actually, of course, as someone who remembers One Nation Conservatism, there are shades of grey in the world, and as such all the major political parties in this country, and indeed most countries in the Western world, have political systems which support some sort of balance between enterprise and tax, between social considerations and the individual, between economic freedom and political freedom. With discussion and election results in no small part being concerned with where the balance of conflicting desiderata lies.

One can only wonder whether the painting of the Lib Dems in such black terms is the result of stupidity or disingenuousness.

David

27 August 2013 at 11:39  
Blogger David Hussell said...

As Nick and IanCad have brought out, revisionists are now interpreting Scripture and Christian experiences generally, with a secular mindset and surprise, surprise, see reflected back their own world view. I think that this distortion of the message is more dangerous for Christianity, in the west, than open, honest opposition. Previous articles have pointed to similar confusions at famous summer "Christian" festivals. And so it goes on.
Jesus was not the Labour (or LibDem) member for Parliament for south Galilee.

The real question here for all committed Christians across the mainstream denominations, is how do we, with the media driven by secularists, spread the message ? Church sermons and services are attended by believers, or at least seekers, and the vast majority are still outside, constantly being given a false impression of the faith by revisionists. I think that some sort of paradigm shift is needed, as to how the message is broadcast. But I don't know to what. However without a shift of gear the future will include further decline, I fear.

27 August 2013 at 11:44  
Blogger Irene's Daughter said...

I suppose Steve Webb may have read a Gospel or two from beginning to end, but I have doubts. He certainly has not read the Old Testament otherwise he would have come across this story about Joshua. (Joshua chapter 5)

13 ¶ Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, "Are you for us or for our enemies?"
14 "Neither," he replied, "but as commander of the army of the LORD (Jehovah) I have now come."

This was a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus. The only side He took was that of Jehovah. And Jehovah's purposes are past finding out! (Romans 11:33) And neither will He take sides in political arguments. He is not a liberal Democrat. He is not a Conservative. He is not a Socialist. He is God and His purposes are indeed on a much higher plain than mere human politics and still past finding out.

27 August 2013 at 11:50  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Alexander,
David Hussell wrote; Shall we all change the altar cloths to yellow, do you think? The alter cloths in half of CofE churches are likely to become rainbow coloured with Liberal influence.
I saw this item in the paper and thought, what idiot is this?
Cameron is about the same, he calls himself a Christian and then pushed through SSM without regard to the public.
The Lib Dems are living in a past Golden Era without the blessings of a considered intelligence.

27 August 2013 at 12:04  
Blogger Irene's Daughter said...

Mr. Hussell, God has His purposes and they WILL be fulfilled. Take heart. As Isaiah said 'when God's judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.' And remember, one of His ways of judgment is to leave men to their own devices and learn what living without Him really means. And in the turmoil that is already coming, He will raise His banner (Jesus)to a height that all may see and be able to rally to.

All we, as His followers, have to do is stand firm, keep looking up for the banner and never, never deny Jesus as God our Lord and Saviour.

We may not know what to do but God does. Jesus' Church will be built and Jesus will have His Bride. This is certain.

27 August 2013 at 12:04  
Blogger Nick said...

Irene's Daughter

Very good illustration from Scripture.

There is a big temptation, even amongst Christians sometimes, to bring God down to our level; to bring his way of thinking down to ours. It is the failure to grasp this that leads people to "create" God in their own image. It is also why some atheists view Chrisitianity as nothing more than a kind of spiritual yoga.

"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:9

27 August 2013 at 12:17  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Hardly know where to start with this one. Whatever I say is going to make me sould like a LibDem, however -

The LibDems are, not to cut too fine a point, socialists

This is a rib, right? I mean, if Boot Boy actually thinks the LibDems are socialists, he's never seen a socialist. To be socialists, they'd actually have to stand for something more that just "it's nice to be nice".

The defining urge of all socialists is to increase the power of the state over the individual.

Well, yes, but unfortunately, that's also the defining urge of all capitalists, at least the variety spawned by Thatcher and neo-liberalism. The only significant difference is that whereas the left is dedicated to picking your pocket by directly taxing you, the right is dedicated to picking your pocket through ever greater tax-breaks for the "wealth creators". Welfare for the rich, in other words. In order to do this, they have to control the government, and hence the individual.

At the same time the LibDems are doctrinally committed to undermining England’s ancient constitution

England doesn't have a constitution, and I speak here as a graduate in English law with a specialty in the English constitution. I know, rather a surreal claim for an Irishman, but on the other hand, only an Irishman could have a speciality in something that doesn't exist. The "English constitution" protects you against nothing because its foundation is the sovereignty of Parliament, the notion that ANYTHING can be changed at any time. (By way of an aside, that is NOT the case in Scotland, nor has it ever been. There, the PEOPLE are sovereign, a concept alien to the English)

Thus he voted for removing hereditary peers from the House of Lords and making that chamber wholly elected.

And...?

While they are at it, the LibDems seek to destroy every institution on which our liberties and “self-determination” rest. The family, for example, is the traditional first line of defence against tyranny. Hence our champions of the Christian notion of freedom (including Steve Webb!) supported the anti-family homomarriage bill with unrelenting enthusiasm.

That notion is as antipathetic to modern capitalism as it is to socialism. At least in its Thatcherite form, capitalism needs endless amounts of factory/office/Tesco-shelf-stacker fodder, and where is it to get them? By forcing any women out of the home which feminism has not already turned into gender traitors for wishing to stay home and look after their children. While I'm against homosexual marriage, that has little or nothing to do with the problem at its core.

27 August 2013 at 12:42  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Con't

At the same time, the LibDems express their commitment to national self-determination by scheming to turn Britain into a province of the European Union.

I think that ship has well and truly sailed. Don't get me wrong; the same is true of every other European country, with the possible exception of Germany. However, it's a bit rich blaming the LibDems for what one right winger called the "Impire".

Given half the chance, they’d draw us into the euro even now, when the calamitous consequences of this are clear to anyone without obvious learning difficulties.

Well, we've been expecting the collapse of the Euro for about five years now, and we're still waiting. Possibly, the reason why the Euro zone's economy has lifted in the last quarter is because everyone is starting to get tired of waiting. When everyone in Britain starts getting tired of the Mount Everest of debt you're carrying, maybe Britain's econcomy will start lifting too.

Do what you must, chaps, go on destroying everything that makes England England.

Well, I don't think Margaret Thatcher left much meat on that particular carcase, but if she did, I think Call-Me-Dave gets first bite.

But please, please leave God alone.

Finally, something we can agree about. God, as we all know, is a Catholic, and Catholic social teaching is about solidarity and subsidiarity. Boot Boy has got the subsidarity bit down pat (capitalists always get that bit), but completely misses the solidarity part (as capitalists always do). Incorporating yourself as a limited liability company does not release you from the loyalty you owe to your country and society, as Thatcherism holds. Controlling the government which makes the laws and having it exempt you from responsibilities towards your fellows does not sever the bonds of association. You are still answerable for your conduct because your responsibilities (like your rights) come from a higher source than government.

27 August 2013 at 12:43  
Blogger Preacher said...

Perhaps we should mention that the German army went as far as having the motto "Got Mitt Uns" on their belt buckles. And Bob Dylan asked the question "Did Judas Iscariot have God on his side?".
Irene's Daughter.
Right on target. God doesn't take sides. His IS the side. We join or reject.
David Hussell.
We need to nail our Christian colours to the mast & stand as our predecessors did before us.
Pray for a Holy Spirit revival, then actively engage the enemy & take back what he has stolen.
As Alexander Boot says & we agree, many claim to have God on their side. But it's more a question of 'Who's on God's side?'. Recent events in Westminster bear mute testimony to the flags that different individuals march under & the 'god' they serve.

Blessings Preacher.

27 August 2013 at 12:55  
Blogger bluedog said...

Corrigan @ 12.43, ermmm, Thatcher's dead.

No need to go on, and on, and on.

27 August 2013 at 13:00  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Yeah, the old sow is dead, but her evil shade possesses the body of Alexander Boot. And Cranmer. And Brother Ivo. How do I know YOU'RE not possessed, Dog? I see dead people. They're EVERYWHERE!

27 August 2013 at 14:03  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

God is a sovereign King. He doesn't do democratic politics. He doesn't have a Prime Minister or a President. He doesn't consult a Congress or a Parliament. He reigns. This idea of the sovereign individual ala John Locke is found nowhere in Scripture.

The Christian faith should inform your politics. It should provide the presuppositions that allow you to make decisions. This is all independent of party. The idea that a Christian must be of one party or another is simply self serving opportunism.

carl

27 August 2013 at 14:51  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

I haven't read Jacob Rees-Mogg's comment: "God is a Somerset Conservative" in context, but have a strong suspicion that his tongue was more than partly in his cheek given his usual style.

A witty rejoinder.

I had heard of the "bar at the end of the Universe"- the alcohol that supposedly flows on the edges of space, but had never considered it might be a sea of cider. Perhaps RamblingSteveAppleseed knows the place

27 August 2013 at 15:36  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

There is a shed in my orchard where cider does flow freely and with zero drink miles.

Cider has a far lower carbon footprint than beer.

27 August 2013 at 15:41  
Blogger mack67 said...

Jesus and the Apostles were self employed trades men -share fishermen and carpenter
They would seek a fair profit earned to support self and dependents.
Modern liberal supporters are in the main public sector people who have never had the dilemma of "can I pay the wages this month" or evencan I pay my own expenses.
They are comfortably removed from such economic pressures and comfortably pensioned

the idea that VAT should be increased supports the above assertion. Increase in VAT would enormously encourage evasion through the "cash" economy which is already well established in particular sections of our community. Also it is hazard for every "honest" tradesmann who has to quote against cash in hand trading econmy

27 August 2013 at 16:23  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Hmmm....cider. Nothing like cold cider on a warm summer day, especially pear cider.

27 August 2013 at 16:23  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Irene's Daughter, and Preacher,

I agree with you both, of course, that we should,

"Always be ready to make your defense to anyone who demands from you an account of the hope that is in you." 1 Peter 3:15. That is not in doubt. You are both right.

And we must always remember that spreading the gospel is essentially God's work, in which he invites us to labour. So he will direct us, we trust. However to ponder how it is best to achieve that purpose, is in my book, trying to fulfill our commission. Do we agree on that point?



27 August 2013 at 16:24  
Blogger Gregory Morris said...

I wonder if we need to limit our engagement with politics. In Mark 8 v 15, Jesus warns the disiples "Watch out; beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod." Doen't this mean that the politics of the secularists and modern day Saduccees is as contaminating as those of the religious establishment? The context of the warning was that having only one loaf, the disciples had enough since they had the Lord with them who could supply all their wants as in the feeding of the multitude. "Hold fast to Christ, and for the rest remain totally uncommitted." I forget which Oxonian worthy said that I may be misquoting it but it is what we all must do.

27 August 2013 at 17:12  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Gregory Morris,

If Christians withdraw from the public square, and it is in that square that politics certainly takes place, secularists will be delighted. That will give them a clear field to secularize society totally. I maintain that too few committed Christians are involved in practical politics or, if they are involved, they believe that for them to engage is just about being "nice", in a very apologetic wishy washy English sort of way.

No, with respect I believe that Christians should engage with politics, unpleasant though it may be at times. Characters such as Wilberforce come to the fore.
As I believe that the EU with its secular laws based on Voltaire type Human Rights is antithetical to Christianity, hence the refusal to even acknowledge the Christian heritage of europe in the EU's constitution, I believe that our withdrawal from it as a political entity is essential. A trading union yes, a political union no. The so called gay marriage Act was rushed through to align us with other EU states, hence its simultaneous passage into law in France as well. So I support Ukip, having stood recently as a candidate etc.

27 August 2013 at 17:29  
Blogger Gregory Morris said...

I am not suggesting that we do not engage in the market-place. Wisdom is said to stand where the busy streets meet. St Paul engaged with the Athenians where they were. Fine. But they both had a prophetic message. They were, like the Angel in Joshua, on the Lord's side. We are called to be salt and light in a perverse generation but we can do that without being politicians. "We will not have this man to reign over us" is the mantra of the establishment then as now so I am not so keen to identify myself with that establishment.

I am grateful for Christians in Parliament, but many of them are compromised with the leaven of the modern day Herods. I do believe there will be some who will be presented blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy and they need our support and prayers. But I don't pin my hopes on the system either ecclesiastical or secular which must shortly come under God's judgement having rejected the Goveernment of his Christ. It's all clearly laid out in the roadmap of Psalm 2.

27 August 2013 at 17:58  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Gregory Morris,

Understood and agreed.

Psalm 2. Yes. A few days ago I restarted my periodic rereading of that book, two psalms a day usually. The whole book is such a reservoir of uplifting wisdom and strength, I find. It's use is much neglected in current C of E services I find, although the pattern is very variable. It continues to utterly astound me that society walks away from such, to use the jargon, "accessible" wisdom, I mean it's easy to understand.
I agree that Psalm 2 is very apt indeed.

27 August 2013 at 18:17  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Regarding slavery as mentioned by JohnH, Chesterton remarked that the Roman Empire was as much a slave state as South Carolina but by the Middle Ages it was gone. No laws had been passed but it was gone. Slavery in fact has a very long history in human society and would have remained so without the appearance of Christianity. The reason slavery is universally condemned today except of course by proponents of Sharia law is because of Christianity.

27 August 2013 at 21:01  
Blogger Elwin Daniels said...

Interesting discussion, and thankfully nothing so far (unless I missed it) about, THAT subject.

Decades ago at a time when I was a member of the Green Party (I'm in UKIP now), I attended a discussion day in Bristol on Christians in politics. I found it most illuminating. Wish I could remember the speaker's name.

The gist of it was that each of the three main political parties had some noble idealism at their heart which was an echo of the divine revelation. Labour supported justice for the poor, Conservatives were in favour of the traditional family, work ethic and keeping hold of the best of our ancestor's values, Liberals were in favour if individual liberty and a small state. Of course, being made up of flawed men and women, none were perfect or had a monopoly on truth or justice, but their best, honourable men and women in each of the 3 main parties could seek the common good in their own voice.

These voices, though distinct, need not be discordant, a bit like notes in a chord or voices in a choir. At least, that is a brief summary of what I recall. A bit like Paul's idea about the body where each part helped the whole.

Of course, without Christ (or some other shared true and good ideal, if there is one-which I doubt) self interest and factionalism tend to take over and things deteriorate over time. That is what I think has happened, hence my frequent references to LibLabCon, the three headed socialist/secularist beast.

Peter Hitchens has addressed this is much of his writings, particularly 'The Cameron Delusion' in which he argues that here is no real difference between the big 3 parties now as they all went to the same schools, did the same non-jobs and believe the same things.

Our Lord said we should be salt and light in a decaying and dark world. If Christians have disengaged from politics, is it any surprise that politics has decayed? But then again, there are so few of us, so weak and so tired. And the madness is so strong......Sometimes I feel like Bilbo Baggins on the slopes of Mount Doom.

PS I have no illusions about UKIP, but they give me a chance to SCREAM.

27 August 2013 at 21:29  
Blogger MFH said...

The question should then be why aren't liberal democrates christian?
And therein is the answer.

27 August 2013 at 21:34  
Blogger Peter D said...

Elwin

A good summary of how democracies without Christianity descend into a moral and cultural morass.

Ps - wasn't it Frodo who climbed Mount Doom and Gollum who jumped into the furnace with the ring?

27 August 2013 at 21:47  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Elwin Daniels,

As a Christian first, last and forever, and a Kipper ( Ukip being a flawed but useful tool ) I agree with you totally on that.

But don't feel tired because there are rather more of us than the secularists want you to know. Anyway our strength is not in ourselves, but in The Lord, and His strength is endless.
Psychologically it's not surprising if we get a bit pissed off (to use a theological term, from the apocrypha, somewhere) as we, regardless of denomination, have all experienced a sudden switch from being part of the nation's mainstream to being pushed out on a limb. As an ex-Conservative and an orthodox, conservative Anglican I feel that surprise and yes, hurt, as much as anyone. I'm still standing on roughly the same patch of ground theologically and politically as I occupied as a young man, many moons ago, but suddenly the ground itself has shot from under me, sharply leftwards ! If I hadn't jumped up the soles of my feet would have friction burns ! Just kidding, but many feel just like that too, I'm sure. The important thing is that we act, in whatever way we can, politically and through our churches, to pass on the all important flame of Truth, as well as political freedom.
And remember, Bibo beat the bastards ! Onwards Christian soldiers !

27 August 2013 at 21:54  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Gregory Morris, Elwin Daniels and David Hussell, great comments all.

It's the stick in the mud that stops the village from being washed away.

27 August 2013 at 22:53  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

David H:"If Christians withdraw from the public square, and it is in that square that politics certainly takes place, secularists will be delighted. That will give them a clear field to secularize society totally."

It's probably worth my pointing out again that an advocate of a secular State doesn't necessarily advocate a secular society at all. The liberal ones like me are quite happy for Christians, Muslims etc to manifest their religion in public. Diversity of beliefs and ideas and lifestyles is actually protected by liberalism.

28 August 2013 at 06:14  
Blogger Gregory Morris said...

Thanks Shaklefree for the reference to GKC. It reminded that Wulfstan Bp of Worcester is credited with preaching against slavery in Bristol where kidnapped British men and women were being traded as slaves. I am not sure that he legislated against slavery however.

The Old Testament makes provision for the freeing of Hebrew slaves in the 7th year of service. All very Libdem one might say but there is a further clause:

But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,' then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever. (Ex 21:5)

Is that what we say regarding the Lord Jesus Christ? If we take up his yoke and our own cross we are enslaved to him forever and this service is said to be perfect freedom.

28 August 2013 at 08:45  
Blogger David Hussell said...

DanJ0,

Yes, you are describing what I would describe as true liberalism, which places value on tolerance towards all, but you are not in power, and that is not what we are receiving, is it ?
The so called liberalism of the current secular model is bossy, intolerant and superior, squeezing out debate. It borrows the term "liberalism", masquerading as tolerance, but haughtily condemns the traditional, having no time for Christianity. In a country with an established Church this is particularly, illogical and jarring. Moreover it is hypocritical, one sided, protecting alien faiths and customs, whilst deliberately (not as "collateral damage") bearing down hard on indigenous faith, and everything traditional. It severs us from our own culture, quite apart from brushing aside conviction. It consumes itself, destroying everything that made us England. Legal case after legal case, where the false rights of Human Rights (as it is interpreted) reigns, Christian conscience and everyones freedom are ground underfoot. It can't go on of course without serious repercussions, as is true of all utopian dreams.
That's how I see it from where I sit.

28 August 2013 at 08:47  
Blogger Nick said...

DanJ0

You might find this article on Anglicam Mainsteram interesting (if YG will permit me to attach a link)...

http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/2013/08/27/keep-it-at-home-and-hidden-in-a-closet/

It seems Quebec is going for a total ban on all manifestations of religion in public. That makes secularism look like the new tyranny. As we know, what happens over there tends to happen over here eventually.

You may have a more liberal attitude on the matter yourself, but many don't. What we are seeing is effectively a war on religion.

28 August 2013 at 09:29  
Blogger David Hussell said...

DanJ0,

Basically Liberalism is dead, as an effective political force. It has been highjacked, stolen by those who masquerade in its clothes but have the intolerance of Stalin. They hate freedom and religion. Face up to it. It's more than sad, it's desperate.

Time for a change of allegiance for you, perhaps ? The old movement is history.

28 August 2013 at 11:03  
Blogger Liberty GB said...

Your Grace

Would you permit me to reproduce this article at www.libertygb.org.uk?

Best regards

Dr George Whale
Liberty GB
g.whale@libertygb.org.uk

28 August 2013 at 11:50  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

Before we get too disheartened- and I agree about the ground shift- may I remind people about one of the good things happening that we can support, which is the campaign by the Conservative MP Nicola Blackwood called "Childhood Lost" which aims to tighten supervision of those who pose a threat to children, and make it less traumatic for the alleged victims of child sexual abuse to give evidence in court amongst its objectives.

28 August 2013 at 12:30  
Blogger LEN said...

Those who have promoted 'Liberalism' have been shown by their actions to be anything other than 'Liberal' when faced with any opposition.
One man`s 'Liberty' is another man`s 'bondage'.
So what is needed is a clearly defined moral code we can all work to which will be for the befit of the majority which will keep forces which intend destroying humanity in check. (Sound familiar?.)
What man calls 'Liberalism' today God calls 'foolishness' because it leads man onto the' broad path' that leads to destruction.

28 August 2013 at 13:57  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

29 August 2013 at 00:31  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

David H: "Time for a change of allegiance for you, perhaps ? The old movement is history."

I'm sticking with it because I think it's the best system to address our human nature. The problem seems to be that lots of people have lost the true meaning of it. I suppose it's a bit like your Christianity in the UK. It's history really but some people can't bring themselves to let go of it and move on. Perhaps the answer is the same in each case: teach new people the fundamentals and hope they buy into it.

29 August 2013 at 18:30  
Blogger Manfarang said...

David Hussell 11:03
Liberalism is far from dead.
Time maybe for a New Church which cuts out all the errors in mainsteam Christianity.

30 August 2013 at 05:07  

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