Friday, August 23, 2013

Greenbelt launches anti-Israel 'Kairos Britain' - and stifles counter debate

Greenbelt - where faith, arts and justice meet. Unless, of course, you happen to be Israeli or Jewish or sympathetic to Zionism or cognisant of the historical quest for a Jewish homeland. Greenbelt used to be primarily an arts festival: it has become acutely political, and those politics obsessed with demonising Israel - even to the point of getting young children to 'Embrace the Middle East' and play an interactive floor game called Occupation! - A Game of Life "to give a glimpse of the challenges faced by ordinary Palestinians living under Israeli occupation... Roll the dice and make your way through checkpoints and challenges, permit denials and poverty".

It is insidious propaganda - quite outrageous indoctrination-by-play - which poisons the mind of young Christians and delegitimises the State of Israel. And this year the Festival also hosts the launch of Kairos Britain - an anti-Semitic/anti-Israel mis-information and propaganda network which condemns Israel at every turn as oppressive and racist - with no mention of its right to self-defence against acts of terrorism and rocket bombardment, or even of its right to exist at all.

According to reports, Greenbelt has refused to allow any speakers - Jewish or Christian - to challenge the premises of Kairos. Young Christians will leave the Festival believing that Israel is a pariah state. This appears to accord with policies and agendas of previous years, which have been variously described as 'Israel bashing', 'Israel-hating' and portraying 'an awful image of Israel'.

Thousands of UK Christians leave Bible Weeks and Christian festivals fired up with a resolution to campaign for justice and human rights. This is a good thing. Sadly, at Greenbelt, much of what they hear targets the Middle East’s only democracy and the world’s only Jewish homeland. Since Greenbelt is unlikely to invite His Grace to redress the imbalance, by way of response, here follows a guest post from Fran Waddams of Anglican Friends of Israel:

When Revisionism leads to Rejectionism

This week’s Greenbelt festival sees the launch of yet another group hostile to Israel, Kairos Britain. Kairos Britain is the latest offshoot of Kairos Palestine, whose replacement theology is widely criticised as bordering on anti-Semitic and whose polemic has aroused concerns that delegitimising the Jewish state is as high on its agenda as support for Palestinians.

In fact it seems to many Christians broadly supportive of Israel, that the focus of opposition to Israel, is shifting from criticising Israeli policies and actions to questioning the very existence of a Jewish state in the Middle East. For example, a friend told me that a volunteer on Embrace the Middle East’s stall at a recent New Wine festival admitted in conversation, to wondering whether Israel’s creation had not been a mistake.

And at New Wine in Newark earlier this month Embrace the Middle East’s CEO Jeremy Moodey, who has welcomed the formation of Kairos Britain, said “I affirm the right of the Jewish people to self-determination, but that right cannot come at the expense of another nation’s equivalent right, which is what has happened in Israel/Palestine since 1948.”

Whilst Moodey affirms the Jewish right to self determination, the rest of his statement raises a serious question. As Israel only became a state in 1948 (having accepted the 1947 UN Partition Plan when Arab leaders rejected it) are we to infer that from its very inception, Israel has in some way compromised Palestinian rights?

A reading of the contributions and linked articles on the Kairos Palestine website might lead an uninformed reader towards such a conclusion. One is left with the impression that Kairos views Israel as a colonial insertion in the region and her Jewish citizens as alien interlopers.

Yet this narrative in which thousands of years of Jewish history in the Middle East is airbrushed out and the circumstances surrounding the birth of the modern State of Israel are fudged is not just skewed but revisionist. Israel’s friends believe that history demonstrates that Jews have a right to self-determination on their ancient homeland.

There has been a continuous Jewish presence in the Middle East and North Africa, including the Holy Land, for thousands of years. Most Jews were expelled from Jerusalem by waves of persecution - an injustice that Israel’s critics, Christian and otherwise, tend to skim over. Even the more distant Diaspora communities of Europe and Russia retained powerful links to the Holy Land through the scriptures and daily worship.

The Old City of Jerusalem had a majority Jewish population from the 1840s until 1948, a fact that might surprise Christians who have only heard a narrative that erases the Jewish presence in the city prior to 1967.

From the late 19th Century on, Jews began arriving in Ottoman Palestine from Russia and Europe, buying land from Arab landlords to build new lives far from persecution. The region began to prosper and that prosperity attracted other immigrants from all over the region and beyond - Arab, Armenian, Egyptian and others.

After the Ottoman Empire collapsed at the end of WWI, the 1920 League of Nations conference at San Remo laid the foundations of the Middle Eastern nations we recognise today –Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq etc were founded. Delegates recognised that Jews too were indigenous to the region and had a right to national self-determination alongside other ethnic groups.

Using the Balfour Declaration for guidance, the Conference set aside some of the territory on which Jews created a nation state and penned the scriptures, for a Jewish national home. The rights of others living in that land were to be protected, and Britain was granted a Mandate to oversee the League of Nations’ provisions.

Outdated as this process may appear today, no one questions the right of, say, Syria or Jordan, also conceived then, to exist. Why then should we not call objections to Jewish national self-determination alone, ‘racist’?

Under the Mandate, Britain committed herself to facilitating a Jewish homeland, and Jewish immigration. But many British officials opposed it because Arab opposition. Some British officials even encouraged Arabs to demonstrate against the Jews, resulting in violence, for example, the attack in 1929 on the 4000 year old Jewish community of Hebron where 67 Jews were slaughtered by their Arab neighbours, many other maimed and the community ethnically cleansed from the town.

Throughout the Mandate years the British severely limited Jewish immigration to Palestine before and during the war – resulting in millions of Jews being trapped in Europe to be slaughtered by the Nazis. After WWII Britain’s inhumane treatment of thousands of holocaust survivors, now homeless refugees, turned away in old, rusting ships from Haifa and Jaffa in full view of the world’s press made sickening viewing and reading worldwide.

The Mandate years were shameful, and ought to make any British Christian think twice before lecturing Jews about justice and human rights.

Jewish people needed a home in which they could live safely. That much was clear from the Holocaust and subsequent mistreatment by the British Government. In 1947 the newly created UN took up the provisions of the San Remo conference and made a partition plan that divided up the land allotted for Jewish settlement by the League of Nations Mandate (again) into a Jewish and an Arab state.

Jewish leaders accepted the Partition, whilst Arab leaders vowed that there would be no Jewish state (and no Jews) permitted in the region. So began a pattern which continues to this day of Arab leaders rejecting any plan which would acknowledge the right of the Jewish state to exist.

Arab attacks on Jews began after the Resolution was passed and the day after the British slunk out of Mandate Palestine on 14 May 1948, 5 Arab armies invading the new state of Israel.

Prior to the Arab attack, many Arab community and national leaders urged Palestinians to leave their homes and villages just until the Jews had been expelled and their property taken. Many thousands took their advice despite being begged to stay by Jewish community leaders.

When Arab invasion began it seemed to spell the end of Jewish hopes for a homeland. The world looked on, expecting the Jewish forces to be overwhelmed by vastly superior numbers and weaponry. The Jordanian Arab Legion was even led and trained by British officers.

Miraculously the Arab nations failed. Jewish forces triumphed, even taking some of the land that had been allocated to the Arabs by the Partition Plan. The ensuing 1949 ceasefire line (Green Line) is often wrongly termed ‘the 1967 borders’. But they were not borders. Those have never been worked out, and can never be until Palestinian and other Arab leaders recognise the right of Jews to a national home on part of ancient Jewish lands.

About 700,000 Palestinians were displaced as a result of the conflict. Some had left on the advice of their leaders, expecting to return after the defeat of the Jewish forces and some were forcibly displaced because their continuation in Israel was perceived to be a threat to Israeli security. Arab nations refused to absorb them, preferring instead to use them as leverage against the Jewish state.

Many of Israel’s critics now clamour for the right of not only these displaced people but also of their descendants to return and reclaim houses and land. The ensuing Arab majority would mean the end of Israel as a Jewish national home; and given the endemic anti-semitism in the region, the suggestion by some Christians that the resulting ‘One State’ with Arab and Jew living side by side in a peaceful democratic state seem irresponsibly naïve at best.

In any case, where is the precedent for people displaced by a war started by their own leaders to return en masse to a country governed by those whom they treat as enemies? 8 million people were displaced during the partition of India and Pakistan 1948. No one seriously suggests that India or Pakistan should give these refugees and their descendants the right to reclaim land and property lost during Partition. Yet in some eyes, the Jewish state should be held to a different standard. Where is the justice in this?

150,000 Arabs did remain within Israel after the War of Independence, were granted Israeli citizenship and today enjoy far superior human rights than their brothers and sisters in Arab lands. On the other hand, no Jews were permitted to remain within areas taken by the Jordanian forces including the Old City of Jerusalem.

Jews were forced from land they had owned for generations or had purchased from Arab landlords was expropriated, for example, in Gush Etzion, and were denied access to Jewish holy sites in Jerusalem and Hebron during the entire questionable Jordanian annexation of the West Bank.

Then, there were the ‘Silent Refugees’, the 800,000 Jews forced out of ancient communities across the region by pogroms and forced expulsion. Their losses in money and property far outweigh Palestinian losses. Where is Kairos’ or their UK supporters’ concern for their rights of return or calls for compensation for their huge losses?

Then there is the question of the circumstances leading to Israel’s taking of the West Bank in 1967. Again, it would be hard to understand from reading Kairos Palestines’s website along, that this would never have happened had Arab nations once again believed that they could oust the Jewish state by force.

Arab aggression continued after 1949. In 1964, 3 years before the 6 Day War, Yassir Arafat launched the Palestine Liberation Organisation whose Charter states that "Palestine with its boundaries that existed at the time of the British mandate is an integral regional unit" and sought to eradicate ".. the existence and activity" of Zionism.’ In other words, Arafat wanted the whole of the Holy Land - including Israel.

In 1967 Egypt’s President Nasser precipitated war against Israel as he expelled UN peace keeping forces in the Sinai and closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping. The circumstances leading up to this war are usually glossed over by Christian critics of Israel. And desperate attempts at revisionism have tried to shift the blame for the War onto Israel.

But there was no question of such revisionism during the Spring and Summer of 1967. I well remember newspaper, radio and TV reports of Nasser’s belligerent, anti Jewish rhetoric, and the build up of troops in the Sinai newspapers throughout May of that year. There was no doubt then in anyone’s mind what Nasser intended and what would happen to Israel if he were to succeed.

Once again aggression from Israel’s neighbours backfired spectacularly, as Israel outmanoeuvred Egypt, Jordan and Syria, defeating them in the 6 Day War of June 1967. After the 6 Day War, Israel offered to return all lands captured in return for recognition, The answer from her warlike neighbours came in the Khartoum Declaration of September 1967 – No recognition of Israel, no conciliation with Israel, and no negotiations with Israel. So another chance to build a Palestinian state was lost.

Israel therefore gained land in the West Bank in a war of self-defence in 1967, and is entitled to retain ultimate control over that land until its inhabitants stop waging war against Israel from it. Which they have not.

So why isn’t there a State of Palestine? There’s been plenty of opportunity, beginning with the Peel plan of 1937, any time between 1949 and 1967, post 6 Day War, and again in 2000 and 2008. Palestinian leaders ‘never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity’ to have their own state. Why?

Maybe there was no will to create another Arab state for Palestinians prior to 1967? Or perhaps – as statements from Arab leaders suggest – the price – which would be to accept the existence of a Jewish state in the Middle East - is a step too far? Neither Kairos Palestine nor her UK supporters seem to want to address this question, particularly as it applies before 1967. One wonders why.

History shows that heaping blame on Israel alone for the failure of the Palestinians and their allies to create a viable state prior to 1967, with all the ensuing consequences, while ignoring Arab aggression and rejectionism is grossly unjust. Yet this is exactly what Kairos Palestine and its Christian UK supporters do.

Revision of Middle East history is leading to a gradual ‘creep’ of Christian thinking on Israel towards a position way beyond criticism of Israel’s actions towards undermining the very legitimacy of her existence - drawing ever nearer to the position of some of Israel’s and the Church’s most vicious enemies. This is deeply worrying.

This creep has the potential to go far beyond the much vaunted position of Christians being ‘critical friends’ of Israel into unjustly singling out Israel’s Jews as perpetrators of a unique sin against justice and human rights. Such Christians are part of the problem, not the solution.


Blogger Anke Links said...

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23 August 2013 at 09:25  
Blogger Tom Wateracre said...

We have released a statement on our Israel-Palestine programming:

Tom Davies

23 August 2013 at 09:28  
Blogger Nick said...

I find it sad that young Christians should be subjected to this kind of propaganda. They are being indoctrinated with the typical secular view of Israel as the Mjddle East villain. As many people on this nlog have stated, Israel is the only democracy in the region and a bulwark against radical Islam which of course seeks the annihilation of both Israel and Christendom.

Utterly shameful propaganda, probably the result of too much BBC and Channel 4 news, and a consequent inability to view the situation in any other way

23 August 2013 at 09:44  
Blogger Unknown said...

Is there a book on the recent history of Israel, including its formation, which can be recommended?

23 August 2013 at 09:51  
Blogger IanCad said...

A picture is worth a thousand words.

That demographic map needs to be sent to every school, church and MP. Stick one on any available lampost.

Better yet; direct mailing to every home in the country.

I'll give a tenner.

Anybody else?

23 August 2013 at 09:56  
Blogger graham wood said...

Unknown asks:
"Is there a book on the recent history of Israel, including its formation, which can be recommended? "

The best of which I am aware is the classic treatment of the whole subject and the history involved,
is Christian commentator Colin Chapman's:
"Whose Promised Land - Israel or Palestine"?
It is a small but powerfully argued book from a biblical perspective and centres on ownership of "the land" (i.e. the physical boundaries of what is now Israel).

23 August 2013 at 09:57  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

An excellent and balanced article. Outstanding and thanks (:

23 August 2013 at 10:16  
Blogger graham wood said...

I am puzzled by Fran Waddam's comment:
"Kairos Britain is the latest offshoot of Kairos Palestine, whose replacement theology is widely criticised as bordering on anti-Semitic"

Having looked at both KB and KP's websites the movement appears to be entirely political.
Whatever the rights or wrongs of past decisions re the formation of modern Israel in 1948, what has this, or indeed current political discussion, to do with "replacement theology", however that is defined?

Incidentally, Colin Chapman makes the supremely important point:
"According to the Old Testament the land is God's land"!
Indeed so.... "He chose to give it to Abraham's descendants as a gift, not as something that they should possess by right".
We must not conflate current controversies about Israel (a modern, secular, but generally democratic state) with Old Testament national Israel whose covenant status found fulfillment in Jesus Christ.

23 August 2013 at 10:26  
Blogger Jeremy Moodey said...

We shall have to agree to differ on the historical narrative (read James Barr's 'The Line in the Sand' to understand the moral bankruptcy of the Balfour Declaration), but Kairos Britain is not anti-Israel and this blog suggests you have not read the document (which you can do here). Kairos Britain is simply a response to the cries for justice from Palestinian Christians. But thanks for acknowledging my comments at New Wine, especially that I affirmed the right of the Jewish people to self-determination. Quite a statement from someone who is regularly and shamefully pilloried by Christian Zionists for his alleged anti-Semitism, an accusation I utterly refute.

23 August 2013 at 10:35  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

I did find it strange that the sites, in the rants against 'Israeli occupation', fail to note that between 1947 to 1967, the territories in question were 'occupied' by Jordan and Egypt. I wonder why there wasn't any cry at the time for these places to be liberated from those oppressors.

Finally, if Israel looses once, she looses for all time. There won't be any peace plan, or process, just a militant Islamic government (then, with the Jewish scapegoat out of the way, the Christians will have something to worry about -see Egypt,Iran, Iraq etc for proof of that), but what is certain is that there will be 7 million plus Jews either dead or refugees (again). Where will the cries of international law, justice be then?

23 August 2013 at 10:35  
Blogger IanCad said...

I am going to revise my previous comment @ 09:56.

On second thoughts it may be wiser to discourage the distribution of it.

Were all the Islamists to see it they would conclude that with one last great effort that pesky tribe will be driven into the sea.

They're all in one place now. Half the battle's won.

23 August 2013 at 10:52  
Blogger Huldah said...

Tom Davies

It has been alleged that Greenbelt has been approached with the request that speakers who are concerned that Kairos' narrative be permitted to speak at the Festival, but have been refused.

Care to comment? I for one would be relieved to hear that this is not the case.

23 August 2013 at 11:07  
Blogger Jeremy Moodey said...

I should add that our interactive 'Occupation' floor game at Greenbelt does not delegitimise the State of Israel, but it does get people to think about the daily realities of living under military occupation: checkpoints, separation barriers, ID and residency permits etc.

23 August 2013 at 11:09  
Blogger Tom Wateracre said...


The statement on our website has more on this. See the Endnotes section "Refusal of ‘other voices’?".


23 August 2013 at 11:11  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

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23 August 2013 at 11:14  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

I did read Jeremy's link and it seems somewhat contradictory, in one sentence it says Britain should apologise for giving some-one's country to someone else and in the next says Israel should have the right to self determination and have secure borders. Then it discusses the security fence, but that is why the security fence was built, because of suicide bombings against civilian Israelis. Now that has been built, it has actually stopped that. Would Britain have stood idle if she had been repeatedly bombed by others?

The proposal - the good old boycott and comparisons to South Africa. That's just plain stupid. Israel has elections and has Christian/Arab parties as well as many, many Jewish parties on a proportional system that the Lib dems in our country can only dream of. Furthermore, Hebrew and Arabic are the official languages of the state and the various religions are given control over their own religious laws (e.g. marriage); the holiest site of Judaism, what is left of the Temple, a Mosque was built all over it.. this is still controlled by Islam and I think that Christians and Jews are not actually allowed to take their holy books into the place and prior to 1967 Jews were not allowed to go anywhere near it (so much for religious discrimination!).

I think also Palestine & Gaza also hold elections. I think in South Africa, non white people couldn't vote or have any rights at all? And what exactly is a boycott going to do, to help improve the lot of the people of the west bank and Gaza?

Perhaps a call for a cession of terrorist attacks, a call for Syria and Iran to reign in their proxies and a commitment to peace, by those who want to see Israel utterly destroyed, would be a better way forward?

23 August 2013 at 11:15  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Also good article, it was especially good to see some-one actually notes the issue of the Jewish refugee problem when Arab and North African states expelled their Jewish populations. Again, something which is rarely mentioned in these discussions.

23 August 2013 at 11:25  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Perhaps it's the curmudgeonly manner of the posters on this site, but it seems every time I log on, I think of the rabbi in that old Jewish joke:

A modern, Orthodox, Jewish couple, preparing for a religious wedding, meets with their rabbi for counseling.

The rabbi asks if they have any last questions before they leave.

The man asks, "Rabbi, we realize
it's tradition for men to dance with men, and women to dance with women at the reception. But, we'd like your permission to dance together."

"Absolutely not," says the rabbi. "It's immodest.Men and women always dance separately."

''So after the ceremony I can't even dance with my own wife?"

"No," answered the rabbi. "It's forbidden."

"Well, okay," says the man, "what about sex?

Can we finally have sex?"

"Of course!" replies the rabbi. "Sex is a mitzvah (good thing) within marriage, to have children!"

"What about different positions?" asks the man.

"No problem," says the rabbi. "It's a mitzvah!"

"Woman on top?" the man asks.
"Sure," says the rabbi. "Go for it! It's a mitzvah!"

"Doggy style?"

"Sure! Another mitzvah!"

"On the kitchen table?"

"Yes, yes! A mitzvah!"

"Can we do it on rubber sheets with a bottle of hot oil, a couple of vibrators, a leather harness, a bucket of honey and a porno video?"

"You may indeed. It's all a mitzvah!"

"Can we do it standing up?"

"No." says the rabbi."

"Why not?" asks the man.

"It could lead to dancing!"

Maybe it's it assumption on Cranmer's part that, now that the white people have successfully attacked and displaced the brown types, we should just forget about the past and let bygones be bygones, because after all, What Would Jesus Do? Presumably, He would ignore the unprovoked assault upon these people; He would quietly agree with His fellows, in the secure confines of whatever golf club He is a member of, that Arabs don't feel pain, humiliation and rage as we white people do, and that therefore what's been done to them is not really an assault at all. The philosopher Peter Singer, after all, holds that what can't feel pain cannot really claim the same rights as the fully human. He uses this arguement in support of abortion, but it holds just as well with Palestinians, doesn't it?

And after all, there are another forty-odd Arab states, surely they can clean up Israel's mess for it, and if they don't, you really can't blame the white people, can you. And then there's the "whataboutery" argument, concerning displaced Jews. Why, surely THAT justifies what Israel has not only done, but what it continues to do to this day?

Now, of course, we could put the blame for all of this on the people who actually did it, and continue to do it. Or we could blame Greenbelt. Guess which option Cranmer would choose.

23 August 2013 at 11:30  
Blogger David Richards said...

Having lived out there for a wee while, I can understand some conflicted feelings about the Israeli-Palestinian situation - Amoz Oz believed part of the problem was that the central dilemma isn't between a clear right and wrong, but two rights. I don't think you have to fully agree with him (I don't), to see where that's coming from.

However, what is disturbing is when people look at the modern Middle East and *only* get worked up about Israel. Christians have been effectively expelled from Iraq over the last decade, and are now being so from Syria (while Egypt doesn't look too great). Countless Muslims have lost their lives in Sectarian violence in the same period, which also sees the atrocities in Darfur. Syria, at the moment, is a bleeding wound. Palestinians are far from being the worst off people in the Middle East - their far from being the worst off Arab Muslims in the middle east, economically or in terms of physical safety. So criticism of Israeli policies - ok, understandable. But when someone looks at the Middle East, ignores current atrocities dwarfing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and can only find criticism for those who happen to be Jews... well other motives appear to be involved.

23 August 2013 at 11:31  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Thank you Your Grace for a concise historical overview.

I had considered attending Greenbelt, as I would have been able to visit a distant friend at the same time, but this confirms my feeling that it is yet another organ of the left leaning forces that will, if unchecked, dilute orthodox Christian belief to vanishing point. It's not for me.

However I wholeheartedly agree with comments above and it is more than sad when young, probably politically naive Christians are fed unbalanced propaganda. Christian parents have heavy responsibilities nowadays.

23 August 2013 at 11:31  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Also regarding that 'game'. I wonder if there is going to be a square which notes the aid and material Israel sends to Gaza and the west bank? Will there also be a sections to land on which say 'bomb the Jewish wedding/bus/city/have a good Jihad'?

23 August 2013 at 11:32  
Blogger Andy said...

Hi Unknown, 'Is there a book on the recent history of Israel..'Try Martin Gilbert’s Israel - A History, is excellent, easy to read, packed with detail and objective.
Alan Dershowitz - The Case for Israel is good.
For sheer pleasure try the novels of Daniel Silva. The ‘Gabriel Allon' series explores many of the issues of modern Israel and her struggle for survival in a hostile world.

23 August 2013 at 11:35  
Blogger Corrigan said...

David, I think people "only" get worked up over Israel because their intelligence is being insulted, and while most people can forgive a physical assault, patronizing them is something which is not easily forgiven. The difference between the Arab dictatorships and the attitude to Israel from people like Cranmer is that while we might all accept that in the world as it is we may have to deal with unsavoury regimes, in the case of Israel, we are having our noses shoved into the pee and told to actually like it.

23 August 2013 at 11:40  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

23 August 2013 at 11:40  
Blogger David Richards said...

Corrigan, you're both uninformed (spend any time in Israel and you'll realise that many Israelis are far browner than some Palestinians), and an example of what I was talking about. I don't see any concern for those killed in Syria, or Egypt or whereever. You don't seem to object to Arabs killing Arabs. Or Arabs killing Kurds. Or Kurds killing Arabs. Or Arabs killing Jews. Only Jews killing Arabs. You don't care for Arabs at all, except as an instrument to hate Jews.

23 August 2013 at 11:42  
Blogger David Richards said...

Ah, so it's your intelligence being insulted that's the real crime, not people dying?

23 August 2013 at 11:43  
Blogger Preacher said...

I am saddened & ashamed. But not really surprised that this propaganda is being promoted at a 'Christian' music festival.
As the Middle East rips itself apart, how can anyone who claims to follow Jesus Christ & read their Bibles be ignorant of the spiritual forces at work here?.
Many of our Western Churches have lost their way & openly embrace undisguised error & in attempting to present the Lord Jesus as a soft easy going, cuddly saviour they are guilty of making a god that they like,one who winks at all their iniquity, made in their own image. & if followed to the ultimate conclusion a powerless puppet who is without authority.

This is not the true Jesus of the Bible. Not the Messiah of Israel & founder of the Christian faith, the Lion of Judah.

Christ was a Jew, His incarnation was prophesied in the Books of the Old Testament. The O.T law still stands & condemns those that reject Him, but guide those that are truly 'saved' by His sacrificial death & the proof of His resurrection.
The full force of the enemy is & always has been arraigned against Him, Israel & His Church. It's the devil's rearguard action, the spite of a defeated enemy, a dying snake, writhing & biting at everything it hates.
We who proclaim ourselves Christian should reject the false teachers & prophets that have infiltrated the Church before it's too late & the true Christ proclaims, "Depart from me, I never knew you!".

The organisers of Greenbelt should be ashamed & repent of this stance. The Media bears testimony to the spirit at work in the Middle East every day.

23 August 2013 at 11:49  
Blogger Corrigan said...

D.Richards, what makes you think I haven't spent time in Israel? I'm aware of the complexions of many Israelis, but both of us understand the point being made, and both of us know it's valid. And no, I don't care about Arabs, at least (like you) any more than people care about those with whom they have little familarity. For that matter, I don't care about Jews either; the difference is that nobody is beating me around the head demanding that I care about Arabs.

23 August 2013 at 12:01  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

.. that right cannot come at the expense of another nation’s equivalent right, which is what has happened in Israel/Palestine since 1948...

What Nation?

Jeremy Moodey makes use of the worn-out red-herring that Palestine was ever a 'Nation'. It was never a nation until Yasser Arafat employed the expression after the war of 1967. A lie repeated often enough assumes after time the legitimacy of truth eventually.

What disturbs me is that the generations that bore witness to these times are now less inclined to challenge this propaganda lie through intimidation by the aggressive pro-Palestinian lobby. The are becoming tired and are getting thin on the ground, while the left-wing history revisionists seem to proliferate and continue to misrepresent the facts for political expediency.

The Arabs of Palestine-cum-Greater Syria were not demanding nationhood from within the Ottomans ruling period and rejected a twin nation state proposal when it was on offer when Trans-Jordan was established and the pre 1948 boundaries were drawn.

The Israelis have tried surrendering land for peace and failed. The Arabs/'Palestinians' don't want peace on any terms as long as Israel survives.

23 August 2013 at 12:01  
Blogger Unknown said...

Thank you Andy and Graham Wood. I have ordered two of them. I expect enlightenment shortly.

23 August 2013 at 12:09  
Blogger jonty said...

The turmoil in the Middle East will eventually engulf Israel. Perhaps then they will realise they should have been on better terms with their neighbours, but I wouldn't bet on it.

23 August 2013 at 12:15  
Blogger Martin said...

Since when has Greenbelt been a Christian festival?

23 August 2013 at 12:17  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

David Richards,

A couple of good responses to our Corrigan there.

Corrigan, if you don't mind me noting if you simply don't care, why bother to post at length about the issue, from a one sided viewpoint?

Jonty, please expand on that further, as I think the other states in the middle east have never really wanted to be on good terms with Israel(except Egypt and Jordan, the only 2 countries with peace treaties).

23 August 2013 at 12:20  
Blogger Ariadne said...

A very good article and I note that in the linked Greenbelt article the UN's duplicitous statements on Israel are taken as a starting point. Like "Palestine" itself the whole hate movement is built on lies. Our taxes go to support them and the slaughter engendered by believing and perpetuating the lies. Even Hamas will tell you that there are no Palestinians:

More than 3/4 of the land intended as the Jewish national home was given to Bedouin (Arabs) whose roots are in Mecca. Is anyone but King Abdullah bothered about that?

The next two links explain respectively what legal rights to land Israel has and how the seeds of the present situation were sown by the time Britain quite improperly gave most of the land away:

This is a great resource to dip into:

Doreen Ingrams was an Arabist and the other two authors were respectively a Christian supporter of Israel and an Israeli. RIP all and the modern Jew-hunters should hang their heads in shame.

23 August 2013 at 12:22  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Oh goody, we can all go and play the occupation floor game at Greenbelt. I wonder if Peter Tatchell is on show this year?

Corrigan, you'll love it. It's all emerging church stuff - you know, question dogmatic tradition, let's all have women priests, Satan's probably just misunderstood indigestion.

23 August 2013 at 12:29  
Blogger Owl said...

The following two lines from the link that Tom Wateracre gave us bother me a lot (but that's not all that bothered me on their website):

"As a Christian organisation with a global vision"


"as Greenbelt seeks always to offer a prophetic voice"

This is purely an ill disguised socialist political stance with pseudo-religion thrown in.

They also only mention the Arab influenced UN statements condemning Israel without offering any historical facts or balanced views.

I am not quite sure who this left wing stooge is trying to fool.

This has nothing to do with Christianity and only a Corrigan type would be taken in (or feel supported in their preconceived anti jewish sentiments).

An excellent article YG. A voice of reason once again.

23 August 2013 at 12:32  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Israel’s friends believe that history demonstrates that Jews have a right to self-determination on their ancient homeland

I am not exactly sure what you mean by ‘self-determination on their ancient homeland’ but I assume you’re arguing for the right of Jews to have a homeland and to live there as a nation.

Do you make the same argument for the British? I ask because I get the impression that Christians are the first to condemn as racist any political party that campaigns for Britain to remain the homeland of the native British; Synod called in 2004 for ‘all Christians in England to nurture a loathing of the sin of racism’ and the C of E bans its priests from joining the BNP. The British are set to become a minority this century and from next century will be at the mercy of whichever alien community becomes the majority but there will be no Anglican Friends of the British because that would be racist.

Similar demographic changes in America will produce an Hispanic majority that will probably have no interest in continuing the United States’ economic and military support for Israel. Unless another major power came to Israel’s aid, Israel would cease to exist. The British a persecuted minority and Israel wiped from the map. Well done, Christians, well done.

23 August 2013 at 12:35  
Blogger Huldah said...

Sorry if this appears twice - gmail playing up a little.


Thanks for response - and I have followed your links.

I'm not sure that my question was sufficiently focused so I'll try again.

Did Greenbelt receive a request from either the Jewish or Christian community that a speaker be permitted to challenge the Kairos narrative at this year's Greenbelt?

If so, what was Greenbelt's response.

(I sneaked in a second question there ...)

23 August 2013 at 12:36  
Blogger Ariadne said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

23 August 2013 at 12:43  
Blogger Ariadne said...

This is at a tangent to the article above but if people don't know the history they may be interested.

Tomorrow is the 84th anniversary of the slaughter of Jews in Hebron.

Information on that time is here

This is a particularly heartrending account concerning a young man murdered on that day.

23 August 2013 at 12:43  
Blogger Mr Grumpy said...

Tom Wateracre,

I have gone to your link and read the statement. The takeaway from this remarkably weaselly text is that propaganda is "prophetic", balanced debate is not.

So I am quite the reverse of reassured.

23 August 2013 at 12:45  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

A top notch post, Your Grace. Glad to see it's having an effect on those who are used to monopolizing the discussion. As an amusing aside, Kairos Canada lost federal government funding in 2009on account of some "irregularities." Kairos and the usual suspects have been keening the usual jeremiads and whispering about old conspiracies, but as one of our MP explained, even though the government has very liberal funding policies for all sorts of cooky and murky organizations, Kairos' antisemisemitism was just getting a little too boisterous and nauseating for his government to stomach. I suspect Dave's government has a stronger intestinal constitution than our's has, though.

23 August 2013 at 12:49  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

If you haven't read the Greenbelt statement, you haven't missed anything. Summarized: "We are a prophetic organization working tirelessly for peace and justice in the Middle East through non-violent action. We seek to give voice to those who aren't heard." How nice. I am sure the people on whose behalf they act will encourage them in their illusions. And I am sure the Good participants of Greenbelt would be shocked SHOCKED at the slaughter that would attend an Arab victory over Israel. But like Corrigan they would find a way to blame the Israelis for their own annihilation.

What was that phrase Lenin used? Useful idiots.


23 August 2013 at 12:49  
Blogger Ivan said...

May I ask when the bleeding-heart Christians will put up a play or game on the world-wide trade in sex, the forced prostitution and exploitation of children. The denial of rights to domestics in so many countries. The horrific conditions of prisons in Brazil, Russia, China and India. Or maybe show the slave labour conditions in factories producing their latest iPad and Galaxy. Or bring them to an abortion clinic? Why are you so obsessed with Israel - where there are already thousands to take up any cause - to the exclusion of far more serious violations of human rights elsewhere?

23 August 2013 at 12:52  
Blogger Martin said...

Hmm. If Greenbelt want to be thought 'prophetic' perhaps they should take note of the OT command:

“But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.” (Deuteronomy 18:20 NKJV)

Tom Wateracre, think on these things.

23 August 2013 at 12:55  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Ah, sadly Mr Tatchell will not be performing this year - but I do see Claire Balding in the lineup. Crumbs, she gets about a bit doesn't she?

I say, this "Battle of the Visions" sounds like a ripping good time. Debate the tricky questions of our time - what a great idea - and invite liberal speakers to each position being debated - absolutely perfect! All the experience of having grappled with something difficult without ever having to be challenged!

Let's hope they manage to keep Amos and Jeremiah out this year. Party poopers.

23 August 2013 at 12:56  
Blogger David Hussell said...


Well said !

23 August 2013 at 13:00  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

I went to Greenbelt once and felt quite uncomfortable at all the pro homo and anti Israel propaganda. When I later approached them on behalf of Creation Science Movement asking to rent a stall I was told in no uncertain terms that sort of thing was not welcome.

Greenbelt = Guardian readers at prayer. Or more likely Yoga.

23 August 2013 at 13:01  
Blogger Brian Gould said...

Unknown (today at 09:51)]

Yes, there are a number of well-researched and well-written books. I would recommend one in particular, Palestine Betrayed by Efraim Karsh, who is a professor at King's College London. First published in 2010, there is a 2011 paperback edition from Yale University Press.

Here's a snippet: "As far back as 1978, he [Yasser Arafat] told his close friend and collaboraror the Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceausescu that the Palestinians lacked the tradition, unity, and discipline to become a formal state, and that a Palestinian state would be a failure fom the first day." Karsh attributes the quote to a post-Ceausescu Romanian source.

23 August 2013 at 13:02  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

From Jeremy Moodey: I should add that our interactive 'Occupation' floor game at Greenbelt does not delegitimise the State of Israel, but it does get people to think about the daily realities of living under military occupation: checkpoints, separation barriers, ID and residency permits etc.

What it gets me to think is, thank God for our brave IDF border brigades who risk their lives to keep the bombers and baby-killers at bay with the checkpoints and barriers. But that's me being biased, I guess.

I affirmed the right of the Jewish people to self-determination. Quite a statement from someone who is regularly and shamefully pilloried by Christian Zionists for his alleged anti-Semitism, an accusation I utterly refute.

A "self-determination" not including the right to keep murderers away and rockets from targeting schools and shopping centres? Ugh. What a disgusting little creep you are; the "Christian Zionists" you moan about are just being polite.

23 August 2013 at 13:06  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Avi,

It seems like you have such a better government than ours - perhaps the UK such apply for membership of the Canadian Federation? I think your PM even looks like a Canadian bloke (sadly,without the lumberjack outfit); i.e. deep voice, manly broad shoulders and plain speaking!

23 August 2013 at 13:10  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Rambling Steve

I have often wondered what would happen if someone persisted in standing in the middle of Greenbelt just reading Scripture. It's a few days, so you could cover quite a bit, all the way from Genesis to Revelation.

No interpretation or anything - just Scripture. I'd be fascinated to see how long it would take - and which verse would be the final straw - before you got chucked out.

23 August 2013 at 13:10  
Blogger Ivan said...

In fairness the Greenbelt people should also put up a play where in exchange for one sadly emaciated young soldier, the Israelis released a thousand prisoners cheeks rolling with fat from falafel, and equipped with useful technical skills. After all this too should promote understanding and sympathy between peoples. Or maybe show the reality of life in Southern Israel, when the Gazans fired indiscriminately especially during school-going hours, in order to show the terror felt on the Israeli side. Isn't it the duty of Christians to have compassion for everyone?

23 August 2013 at 13:12  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

The actual logic in play is this:

1. The root of the problem is oppression caused by Israeli power.

2. To achieve peace the Israelis must make themselves vulnerable.

3. Eventually the Arabs will stop feeling threatened and everyone will live in peace and harmony.

4. The Israelis as the stronger power (and unstated) because their oppressive behavior is the proximate cause of the problem, should ensure the residual death inflicted upon them until the Palestinians come around.

The Middle East conflict is a lab experiment for Left wing non-violent conflict resolution. Their world view is tied into the success of their efforts. They want it to succeed because their world view tells them it must succeed. That's why they would be shocked at the slaughter attendant to Arab victory. Their world view won't allow them to predict it.


23 August 2013 at 13:14  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

PS, Avi @ 13.06, well said!

Also, Ivan well said too- there are many other causes to be worried about- abortion, poverty, secularisation. Why is Israel put at the top of the list?

23 August 2013 at 13:15  
Blogger Corrigan said...

David Kavanagh wants to know why, if I don't care about Arabs any more than Jews, I should be so exercised about the question. It's really simple David, and the answer appears in my first post on the issue above - I will not have people pee down my back and then tell me it's raining. What's right is right.

23 August 2013 at 13:16  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

endure the residual death. Not ensure.

Grumble grumble. Autocorrect


23 August 2013 at 13:16  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

HI Johnny,

Well I'm a Jewish friend and proud to be British! I am sure I read somewhere that the labour government's policy was to allow anyone into the UK, so that they'd never have a conservative/right wing government?

23 August 2013 at 13:17  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Carl,

A couple of insightful posts there, with a focus like a laserbeam, you penetrate to the reality of the situation. I'd also add that Israelis have time after time, wanted and offered peace (often with a cost and lives, such as when Rabin was murdered, for his desire for peace), but have nothing but slaps in the face- .i.e. terrorism, death, slaughter, in return.

23 August 2013 at 13:23  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

23 August 2013 at 13:36  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Hannah, our government is an anomaly in a Canadian tradition of leftist liberalism, kowtowing to the UN and Islamic regimes. Its currently friendly stance on Israel is decried by the other parties as a shocking abandonment of the great Canadian tradition of mewling and purring to the worst killers out there, peddled as the role of the "honest broker." The Liberals might win at the next election, and there is a chance of that, for as spectacular as their economic policies have been...keeping Canada ahead of the US and EU...we have our own entitlement-conscious mendicants and a massive Muslim immigration nourished with generous welfare policies as well. So, things might be back to "normal" again in a couple of years from now...more likely worse than "normal." The retirement ranch I've been eyeing in the Golan, not far away from the Syrian border, is beginning to look safer by the day.

23 August 2013 at 13:37  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Avi,

'thank God for our brave IDF border brigades',

That is right. Also a little plug for our IDF women (who, unlike certain 'you-Tube' vids do not pole dance around sub-machine guns, near naked)...

Like the Caracal Battalion, made up of women commandos, including Arab-Israelis, whose tasks include 'securing the Egyptian
border from smugglers, infiltrators, and terrorists'.

23 August 2013 at 13:37  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Avi,

Oh..That sounds more like the UK then ):

I hope you enjoy your retirement ranch in the Golan, though. Hope you have enough guns and swords... (:

23 August 2013 at 13:39  
Blogger david kavanagh said...


Quite right, the IDF women; the Queen Esther's and Judge Deborah's of modern Israel... and don't go too hard on the pole dancing vid... it's nothing compared to the pranks we used to get up to the navy... (as Carl Jacobs will agree, 'unit cohesion' and esprit de corps are crucial to any credible armed forces).

23 August 2013 at 13:47  
Blogger david kavanagh said...


Sorry, that just doesn't wash with me. I don't buy the bit about rain and wee, besides which none of that explains your 99.9999999% vitriol against Israel. At least if you seemed to support a cause (however misguided), I could appreciate that. But you just seem to be in this to trash Israel.

So if you don't care and have as much contempt for Arabs as you do Jews, why constantly go on the attack against Israel here?

Just admit, you like a bit of Israel bashing because it is a Jewish state... if it were a Catholic one, you'd all for 'sticking it to the Mussies', wouldn't you?

23 August 2013 at 13:51  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Anonymous Belfast,

I like the reading of plain Scripture bit at Greenbelt, preferably King James, to give it gravity.

All you need is a soapbox and a rota system and some pals.

Presumably there's a beer tent to lubricate speakers throats ?

Now if you'd organize a shift system you could recruit volunteers from here, perhaps. I'm up for John's Gospel ! Who is up for Roman chp 1 + 2 ?
Someone would need to stand shotgun, one facing outwards each direction, three is the minimum to give 360 degree cover.

23 August 2013 at 13:52  
Blogger Ivan said...

Hannah my theory, gelled sometime ago is that Israel is the modern scapegoat. I am an Indian, in India truth be told there are far more violations of human rights in a single day than in Israel in a whole year. Yet no one seem exercised by it to the same extent. The truth is Israel is a whipping-dog, to be bear the burden for everything under the sun. So that if you a conference say on racism as in Durban in 2000, the problems of the Dalits in India, or Tibetans in China, or Koreans in Japan, or of anyone who suffers from it can always be ignored as they go on about the Palestinians. You can see this type of misdirection, in any conference from water resources to the sex-trade. The saddest results are that the genuinely needy are ignored, and the Israelis who care about these things become further disillusioned.

23 August 2013 at 13:52  
Blogger david kavanagh said...


I do like Canada (being an American version of Britain, with the exception you can't buy booze other than a government shop- except in the French bit-very socialist that).

I once thought, in my youth, of settling in Nunavut, where there would be nothing but a few tribes of Native Canadians, polar bears and fish. That was when I was a widower and feeling a bit grumpy, but sometimes, I do yearn for the great outdoors.

23 August 2013 at 13:56  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Again, another Zionist deflection from David Kavanagh. I know this is difficult for you to understand; I know you've been trained from birth that if you scream "AAAAGGHH!!!! ANTI-SEMITE!!!!!" loud enough, the critic will withdraw; I know it must be terrifyingly confusing for you that this is not happening here. However, If you read what I wrote (not what you've been trained to expect from us "anti-Semites", but what I actually wrote) you'll see it says that my problem is that I object to the demand that I support Israel. Start from that, then come back when you've got your mind around why people might object to the notion of entitlement.

23 August 2013 at 13:59  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Hope you have enough guns and swords

Ya bet yer bonnet, Miss Hanna. A 1912 model Winchester repeater and an 1850s US Navy Colt, both wonderfully restored by a hobbyist friend and wrapped in oil cloth in a storage locker. A good pair of riding boots and a fine selection of Stetsons. Never thought about a sword, but now that you mention it, I should start saving for a genuine US Light Cavalry Sabre too. Retirement won't happen for another ten years or so, though...gotta pay for too many things...but doesn't hurt to dream and to start collecting the toys.

23 August 2013 at 14:03  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Gosh, how thick of us, Corrigan. You're just a hard-to get kind of a boy. Momma taught you good; you need to blush and hiss cuz you don't wanna seem to easy to those pushy Zionists. We'll bring chocolates and start saying "purty-please" from now on.

23 August 2013 at 14:08  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Ivan,

That is actually quite an interesting theory and funnily enough I think you are right that Israel is a modern day scapegoat for all the middle east's problems. Alas, if there were a peace treaty with the Arabs, they would be the first to benefit from Israeli technology re water, land reclamation and agri tech. Sadly Jihad is more important.

Ps- I've always liked India, especially Sikhs and Hindus; I understand that India is actually the most pro-Jewish/Israeli country in the world (:

I also like the fact you write under a non-sounding Indian 'name'. Which is good, because I have the same problemo as a Jew- i.e. I should be Kavstein or whatever.

PS- My uncle's family was stationed in India, during the Raj & my Iraqi side were Merchants so had a lot of contact with India. Apparently India has a small, but hard working Jewish minority (another slap in the face of Corrigan's 'white man's burden' tosh).

23 August 2013 at 14:08  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

23 August 2013 at 14:16  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


"Demand you support Israel?" Please. You have previously stated that Israel was illegitimate at its birth. This is about far more than what people demand you support. You think Israel should never have existed. Your 'solution' of a unitary state is simply eyewash. That's why you can't describe how it would work. It just allows you to say something besides "The Jews should never have been there in the first place so they should leave - one way or the other." The unitary state you support will achieve exactly that outcome.

And you know it.


23 August 2013 at 14:18  
Blogger Ariadne said...

Hannah, I haven't heard of devils in skirts but in WWI the Germans called the kilted regiments "ladies from Hell".

23 August 2013 at 14:20  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Avi,

As you are married to a Scottish lass, you should consider the Claymore,which is quite a sturdy weapon.. or for slashing a good old Katana*..

My sister wanted to ask (a very personal question)..if you dressed in a kilt at your wedding? On the Irish side of our family, we have kilts too, but I've never asked if they follow the Scottish tradition of being 'the devils in skirts'** (so to speak).

*one of my 'hobbies' is sword fighting and fencing, my personal favorite is the English longsword- uncle was quite clear we needed to be able to defend ourselves when he was 'dead and buried' and like Johnny R, is convinced they'll be a civil war one day or something.

** i.e. no underwear- for further info, watch this historical documentary(Lol!) :

23 August 2013 at 14:21  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

David,for a tamer taste of our North, try the First Nations reserve on Factory Island at James Bay. Stay at the hotel there, because even in the summer the nights are chilly when that wind blows unobstructed from the Arctic. For camping, Wikwemikong Reserve on Manitoulin Island firther south, where you can feast on daily catches of fresh fish at a quaint...but quite pricey little restaurant.

23 August 2013 at 14:29  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Airnade,

'The devil's in skirts' is the name of the fictional 3rd foot and mouth regiment Highland infantry, a bit of British humour from the 'carry on series' (which tickles, my childish sense of humour).

They are known as "the Devils in Skirts" for their tradition of not wearing anything under the kilt -as per the well known Scottish Highland tradition- (:

And of course we all love our 'braveheart' Scottish friends and relatives; Scotland being one of the places which has been most friendly and welcoming to Jews for centuries past (:

23 August 2013 at 14:30  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

23 August 2013 at 14:39  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Re the personal question, no, eventhough my wife converted on her own before we met, things with inlaws were a tad chilly, her being a dughter of a lay Anglican minister and a Presbyterian mom and I wasn't about to ask her Dad to borrow his Anderson kilt, the sporran et al. She is connected to the Camerons too and I got the hunting tartan which I wear with an Anderson kippa at some formal occasions. Bit of a colour clash, but good politics.

23 August 2013 at 14:39  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Avi,

David has always had this thing about Alaska and stuff, as he went there as a student. I've been to Ottawa, Quebec, Toronto (like the nifty subway, which is only $5), and Niagra falls ;which, I'm ashamed to say, looks better on the American side.

I didn't like the ghastly security, though, as the 'Home land security' types were a bit OTT, me having darker skin and all, a bit too Arab looking, except the star of David I had around my neck made them relax a bit... but I am sure they wanted to shoot something (thankfully I have American relatives, so that calmed them down as well). The look I got when I was about to pay the border charge, when I asked if it was to be paid in Canadian or American Dollars! (And they didn't like the fact that I had 3 Kruggerands on me either- essential currency when going abroad).

The 'maid of the midst' was cool. Why did you Canadians decide to turn the bit around Niagra into a tacky version of blackpool, though? Having said that, the big tower thingy that rotates was also cool, especially the view of the illuminated falls!

23 August 2013 at 14:41  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Avi,

Sorry, you can blame my sister for that silly question! Cool to have a Tartan Kippah! And you spell Mum, Mom, which is also cool! (:

If you are related to the Camerons, do you mean like our PM (who is married to the daughter of a Viscount?). The man done well, as we say over here! I have read of your child (state) deprived upbringing in the ghastly socialist state, like having carrot shavings for food and plutonium made toys.

But you did well; an artist, academic cum truck driver... I tried to paint once but ended up producing a giant blob of blue (my second favorite colour).

23 August 2013 at 14:46  
Blogger Ariadne said...

Thank you, Hannah, I watched the clip!

Scotland is very much let down these days by a particularly toxic and utterly ignorant 'Scottish Palestinian Solidarity Campaign', some members of which are apparently not Scottish.

I'd love to see evidence of the reports that Jews exiled from England in 1290 found safe refuge in Scotland. There must be evidence somewhere.

23 August 2013 at 14:47  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Ah Avi,

Well I am apparently an 'unofficial' member of one of the tribes out there- as part of my MA degree was , well, bugger all to do with northern Canada and everything to do with history ('the french and indian wars' I think you call it- Montcalm/Wolf/last of the mohicans etc), but that didn't stop me from making an ever so slight diversion from Eastern Canada/Northern New England... Ah, them were the days, the early 1980s, the whole life ahead of me, the naive belief that I could change the world with idealism... Bah!

23 August 2013 at 14:55  
Blogger david kavanagh said...


How on earth did you get into an altercation with American border officials? I don't have any problem when I go over there...yes they take iris scans etc, but that's because we don't have "bio-metric" passports yet.

23 August 2013 at 14:59  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Anyway, better sign off now, as I'm the one doing the Shabbat dinner tonight. A bit like the old days, when I was a cook in the navy (of which my children often ask me why I have a pistol, if was a lonely old cook; the answer is everyone of the crew thought they were a food critique, ahem!).

But seriously, a Shabbat Shalom to everyone here, including Corrigan, Avi, Hannah, His Grace, the folks at green peace green belt, the faux pas Christian hippies, Yiddish Orthodox, Mormons, Roman Catholics, Evangelicals, 'OTHER' Christians and anyone else whom I've left out.

23 August 2013 at 15:04  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

David, Corrigan has a fixed position on Jews and Israel and he's just groping around hither and yon trying to cobble together and present a half-witted rationale for it. It's amusing to watch in increments, as in real time the process flows like molasses on a cold day.

And no, never thought of you as a dumb peacenik. Btw, to this day I wonder whether Barak offered the Pals almost everything while knowing it will be violently rejected, as an independent, self-supporting state is the last thing in the world they want. At least that offer, to give away Yudah and Shomron and part of Jerusalem, will, God-willing, never be brought up again.

23 August 2013 at 15:06  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

O yes, I keep on forgetting that the world is a sphere and you'll be ending your day soon; a Shabbat shalom to you and all here.

23 August 2013 at 15:08  
Blogger cityca said...

I saw the Greenbelt website this morning for the first time and was interested to see the web link, that included Israel Palestine programming in the title. I then read through the programme and was horrified to learn the approach that Greenbelt is promoting - the word 'programming' is so appropriate.

Rambling Steve Appleseed writes Greenbelt = Guardian readers at prayer. Too true.

The narrative on I/P promoted in the Guardian and its broadcasting arm, the BBC offers just such an unbalanced view and to see it being promoted by people who ostensibly claim to be Christians is incomprehensible to me.

Israel is the only country in the MIddle East where Christians and churches are perfectly safe. What part of freedom of religious expression do people like Tom Davies and Jeremy Moodey not understand?

Have they not heard from Christian Arab inhabitants of Bethlehem of the persecution, violence and intimidation suffered under the government of the Palestinian Authority? How the Christians of the aspiring Palestine are being forced out?

Why is it that of the 850,000 Jews from Arab Lands made refugees following the establishment of the Jewish state, not one single person remains a refugee? Yet all the Palestinian Arab refugees and their descendants remain stateless, without citizenship or passports or meaningful employment in any Arab state, some 65 years later?

The Arab League policy of keeping Palestinian Arabs living in squalid camps, has been to use them as a stick with which to beat Israel. The anger and resentment they undoubtably feel is directed, not at their Arab brothers who with 56 Muslim states and untold billions in oil money, and who might just have found a corner of Arabia to house what were then 650,000 refugees, but at Israel.

Constant hate education has resulted in generations of all Arab children, being taught to hate Jews, and organisations like Greenbelt, reinforce that education and what is worse, 'programme' it into our own children too.

I genuinely feel sorry for the Pallestinian Arabs. They are between a rock and a hard place. The Rock is the IDF which thankfully continues to resist their attacks on Israeli civilians. The Hard Place is every member state of the Arab League, who continue to refuse to allow them admittance but who finance munitions and hate education.

This bitter conflict could so easily have been solved decades ago had their 'brother' Arabs shown a degree of humanity.

The constant pressure to solve this appalling humanitarian crisis should rightly fall on the very people who initiated the 1948 war - the Arab League.

And Greenbelt should stick to religion and stop dabbling in what they clearly do not want to understand. Peoples' lives are at risk here - Arabs as well as Jews, or do the lives of 'the other', not count for you?

23 August 2013 at 15:16  
Blogger david kavanagh said...


I've sneaked in the laptop, so I'll just say that Corrigan is a mystery to me .. I agree that he is groping like the blind men in the old legend of the blind men feeling an elephant and getting the wrong idea of what the animal actually is...

I don't know if you sing the Lekhah Dodi at your Shabbat meal, as it is quite a Sephardi hymn,but to me it always brings a tear to my eye, every Friday night... especially as Mrs K can sing (she is Welsh) it beautifully...

'Lekhah dodi liqrat kallah
p'nei Shabbat neqabelah
Shamor v'zachor b'dibur echad
Hishmianu el ham'yuchad
Adonai echad, ush'mo echad
L'shem ul'tiferet v'lithilah'

23 August 2013 at 15:18  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

An awesome, to-the-point summary, cityca. Don't hold your breath for a reasoned reply though. At most some links to the propaganda sites and a list of activist pamphlets they call "books."

23 August 2013 at 15:23  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

One final comment from me (perhaps.... I've got a couple of hours left).

Corrigan, your Jews 'white', Arabs 'coloured' meme is crap, given that there are Jews from the med, Arab lands called Sephardi Jews (myself included), Jews from India, Jews from Ethiopia (look up 'beta Israel')... If you are trying to make a slight against Ashkenazi Jews for being "colonial" (that is ' Western-central-northern European'), then I think you'll find that the majority of Ashkenazi are, according to DNA descended from the middle east (dispelling the myth of the Khazar crap we get from raving loons). But even if the Khazar myth were truth, you can be 100% Jewish by conversion. A Martian, if converted to Judaism would be considered to be fully Jewish as Jewish (and I think it would be good that we'd have a couple of Ice Warriors on the Yiddish side anyway).

23 August 2013 at 15:29  
Blogger david kavanagh said...


'Jolly good show', as a good man once said to me.

23 August 2013 at 15:30  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Yes, David, I prefer the nusach Sefard for lecha dodi, although I daven at the shul with the guys and then head home. There I sing eyshes chail (A Woman of Valour) with my own tune; a curious thing, as I know of no religion where a husband stands respectfully before his wife and sings a song to her once a week. It's a trick of timing, though, as I usually prepare dinner too before rushing out to the shul for the kabbalat shabbat.

23 August 2013 at 15:31  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

23 August 2013 at 15:40  
Blogger david kavanagh said...


Such is the wonderful diversity of our faith. And you will have to excuse my sisters if they appear to be non gracious towards you good self. They are quite a pair. That's why they are so wonderful!

I was just thinking about tonight's Shabbat. I have two non-Jewish step children and yet they enjoy and want to join in with us. If they do or do not want to convert to our faith, I think that is where -alas -Christianity fails, because example and deed say much more than doctrine,dogma & preaching.

Just my thoughts.

Right, better get than lump of beef into the oven and cook it for a couple of hours!

Cherry pip, Avi!

23 August 2013 at 15:42  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi David,

Oh I never mean to be condescending or rude to our Avi... I guess I just don't appreciate the difficulties he went through as a child, like not having enough food and stuff, but I totally get his difficulties with learning and wanting to be a free spirit re truck driving vs academia, as I've been through similar problems myself .

I am going through the same thing at the moment, not sure whether to stop my academic career or go and run uncle's estate. I'm much happier being on the land and stuff.

But anyways, Shabbat Shalom, to you too bro!

23 August 2013 at 15:55  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi A,

I managed to find this from Wiki, not sure if it is Kosher or not :

'Evidence of Jews in medieval Scotland is scanty, but in 1190, the Bishop of Glasgow forbade churchmen to "ledge their benefices for money borrowed from Jews".[1] This was around the time of the Anti-Jewish riots in England so it is possible that Jews may have arrived in Scotland as refugees, or it may refer to English Jews from whom Scots were borrowing money. While England during the Middle Ages had state persecution of the Jews, culminating in the Edict of Expulsion of 1290 (Jews may have fled to Scotland at this time[2]) there was never a corresponding expulsion from Scotland, suggesting either greater tolerance or the simple fact that Jews may not have been resident. The eminent Scottish-Jewish scholar David Daiches wrote in his autobiographical Two Worlds: An Edinburgh Jewish Childhood that there are grounds for stating that Scotland is the only European country that has no history of state persecution of Jews.
In the Middle Ages, much of Scotland's trade was with Continental Europe, the wool of the Border abbeys being the country's main export to Flanders and the Low Countries. Aberdeen and Dundee had close links to Baltic ports in Poland and Lithuania where Scottish merchants traded.

It is possible therefore that Jews may have come to Scotland to do business with their Scottish counterparts, although no direct evidence of this exists.[3]

Like many Christian nations, medieval Scots claimed a Biblical connection. The Declaration of Arbroath (6 April 1320) appealed to Pope John XXII for recognition of Scotland's status as an independent, sovereign state and asserted its right to use military action when considered unjustly attacked. It was sealed by fifty-one magnates and nobles. It is still periodically referenced by British Israelitists, because the text asserts that in the eyes of God:
'cum non sit Pondus nec distinccio Judei et Greci, Scoti aut Anglici'

(there is neither bias nor difference between Jew or Greek, Scot or English)

Reverence for the tenets of Judaism was a hallmark of 17th century fundamentalist Protestant thinking when the National Covenant of 1638 seemed to set the seal on the belief that by returning to the "true religion" at the Reformation the Scots had become a chosen people :

'Scotland, whom our Lord took off the dunghill and out of hell and made a fair bride to Himself... He will embrace both [of] us, the little young sister, and the elder sister, the Church of the Jews. (Rev. Samuel Rutherford)[4]'

23 August 2013 at 15:58  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

An excellent article and many a good post from several communicants here.

But I would say to the lefties here -this rot has to end now! The Israelis are our friends and allies, who are trying to make peace with a bunch of delinquent thugs cum bully boys! There won't be any bally 'peace' so long as Johnny Arab wants to commit a second GENOCIDE against the Jewish people- the people chosen by God himself to be the light unto the gentiles, the people whose culture, philosophy and Scriptures have done much to shape our own western culture.

Enough said.

The Green belt etc can shove their lies and propaganda where the sun does not shine.

As the toadying,arch-appeaser Corrigan, why sir, you are a wretch, deserving of nothing less than thorough thrasing !

Proclaiming you do not 'care' about this matter, but on the other do nothing else here, except to attack Israel... forgetting perhaps that if there had been no Jews, there would be no Jesus and therefore no Christianity! And when you are not doing that the good olde C of E!

Long live Israel and may God forever bless her!

Psalm 78 vs 35-37 :

"And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth, and they lied unto him with their tongues.

For their heart was not right with him, neither were they stedfast in his covenant.

But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath!"

23 August 2013 at 16:17  
Blogger cityca said...

Thank you Avi @ David K. In truth there are some excellent posts from you two and others and I thought the article was superb.

I had very briefly considered going to the Greenbelt meeting, but to travel several hundred miles, only to be closed down the moment I stood up to speak/ask a question, seemed like a very poor return on the investment of my time and petrol.

It's very much a tactic of the left to prevent other voices to be heard - yet they're the first to demand free speech - for them.

23 August 2013 at 16:34  
Blogger Len Grates said...

An excellent article stating the truth. Funny how some people just don't like truth. That is the battle ground in the Middle East. Biblical truth is even harder to swallow if you like to promote prejudice that often leads to a funny kind of hatred.

23 August 2013 at 17:11  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

23 August 2013 at 17:12  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Airnade,

Sorry my post above was to address you. Sorry for the "A". I must be confusing our Airnade's and our Avi's!

23 August 2013 at 17:12  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Bro,

Jewish Martians/Ice Warriors would be like sooo... cool!

23 August 2013 at 17:13  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

It is interesting that Steve Appleseed notes 'green belt' is like the Guardian. I have to say, that is why I couldn't be a Christian, despite the 'liberal' Christians being so accepting of gay people, because when push comes to shove I'd rather be an observant gay Orthodox Jew, who follows the Torah and keeps Shabbat, than an Israeli/Jew bashing, liberal Christian.

23 August 2013 at 17:19  
Blogger Watchful Iris said...

Regarding the Greenbelt programming statement, until you've got something constructive to say about the following 3 issues, you all need to stop your whinging and whining.

The continued Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories as illegal

The separation wall being built since 2002 as illegal

The continued building of Israeli settlements in the West Bank as illegal

23 August 2013 at 17:26  
Blogger david kavanagh said...


Apparently Bernard Bresslaw, who was the actor who portrayed 'the first' Ice Warrior, Lord Varga, was indeed born to a Jewish family! How cool is that? So, in TV, at least, we do have Jewish Martians! He just should have aimed his sonic gun somewhere, appropriate.

23 August 2013 at 17:29  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Also, so I am told, there have been quite a few Jewish Time Lords...

23 August 2013 at 17:31  
Blogger david kavanagh said...


Just thought I'd respond to each comment you made (in caps, as I can't do the fancy stuff Avi does in black bold) :

'The continued Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories as illegal'


'The separation wall being built since 2002 as illegal'


'The continued building of Israeli settlements in the West Bank as illegal'


23 August 2013 at 17:38  
Blogger david kavanagh said...


You are much better being an observant Jew than a liberal Christian. There is something, a brilliant light, something French a 'je ne sais quoi' there.

23 August 2013 at 17:41  
Blogger Watchful Iris said...

Tell it to the FOC and just about every other equivalent in the world.

23 August 2013 at 17:44  
Blogger david kavanagh said...


I DUBSHIT, I RCUYBS, I would like you to complete the following:

FOC .... (complete sentence as I am somewhat DSUTUA).

23 August 2013 at 17:49  
Blogger Watchful Iris said...

oops...I meant FCO...Foreign and Commonwealth Office

23 August 2013 at 17:52  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Ah yes, our wonderfully inspired pro-Arab-get the gas- Foreign Office (except, when we want to invade an Arab country, of course). Move along, nothing more to see here!

23 August 2013 at 18:00  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Watchful Iris

Since you have cleverly defined having "something constructive to say" as "agreeing with Watchful Iris" I suppose there is no way for us to meet your condition.

Here, let me introduce you to an interesting concept called "reality."

1. The Israelis aren't going to surrender control of the borders.

2. The Israelis aren't going to surrender control of resources - especially water.

3. The Israelis aren't going to let the Palestinians to have a military.

4. The Israelis aren't going to allow the Palestinians to make treaties with foreign powers.

In short, there will never be a true Palestinian state west of the Jordan River. Why? Because such a state would compromise Israeli security. The Palestinians can accept that or not. It doesn't change the fact. What does this imply. There isn't going to be an end to the "illegal occupation." And the "illegal settlements" are going to continue as well to ensure Israeli control of the border.

Now, if the Palestinians don't like the wall, then they should have stopped blowing up buses with suicide bombers. The Israeli govt has a responsibility to protect its citizens. If the Palestinians resort to terrorism, the Israelis are going to take action to protect themselves. If that causes suffering in Palestine, well ... tough. If they stop the terrorism and they will cease to suffer.

In the meantime, I would point out that the Palestinians have been the recipient of incredible restraint from the Israelis. Given the level of provocation, most other nations would have long since driven them into the desert to drink sand. I suppose you could tell that to your friends at the 'FOC' ... whatever that might be.


23 August 2013 at 18:03  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Carl Jacobs,

As usual your intelligent and Analytical style gets the better of me, in these threads. Unfortunately Israel is cutting too close to the bone for me, all I can see is the need for a Jewish homeland and the terrorists wanting to continue Hitler's work, but that is my full bodied man o man, search my soul gut feeling.

I guess it is like if you come across a wall of hostility to your own great Republic, so I let my emotions get the better of me....

so, carry on as you were, Sir!

23 August 2013 at 18:13  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

PS, The acronym of FOC needs an further set of letter - an 'O' and an 'F' and another 'F'.

23 August 2013 at 18:15  
Blogger Owl said...

Do you really think copy/pasting from this obnoxious website constitutes some form of discussion?

The commenters have been very kind to you up until now. Please don't spoil it.

Try a bit harder to use your brain before just repeating propaganda.

23 August 2013 at 18:24  
Blogger david kavanagh said...


Thanks for the mention in dispatches (so to speak).

I wonder if Green belt would like to show 'solidarity' with the Syrian[Arab- Christian and Muslim people] people at the moment :

1,900,000 refugees
1,000,000 children
740,000 under the age of 11
4,250,000 'internally displaced' people.

And who is responsible? Arabs slaughtering Arabs, not not being of the same 'tribe'/'sect'.

Surely, that is worth the compassion and discussion of Jesus-ians?

23 August 2013 at 18:35  
Blogger Watchful Iris said...

@Kavanagh You don't like the FCO? Ok how about the UNSC? See the 4th Geneva Convention and UNSC resolution 465 which the US voted for.

23 August 2013 at 18:38  
Blogger Watchful Iris said...

Carl jacobs I guess it is just one big happy fully democratic family between the river and the sea then yes ? I like that idea

23 August 2013 at 18:39  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Watchful Iris

It's good that you like the idea. Perhaps you could explain how to realize it when the Arab side of your "one big happy fully democratic family" is committed to the annihilation of the Israeli side? I realize that people on your side of the argument like to focus on imagined outcomes, but couldn't you focus on some details just this once?

Ok how about the UNSC?

Who cares about the UNSC? It has no intrinsic authority. It has no power. It defines no law. It has no jurisdiction. It carries no weight. It is the impotent executive of an impotent organization. It is a tool of the nations and nothing more.


23 August 2013 at 18:52  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Watchful Iris,

It doesn't matter what I think of the Foreign Office or the UN. The only peace that will be real will be that decided between Israel and the Jihadists. In other words France, Russia, Fiji & the rest of the UN can pontificate all they want to... the only resolution will be between Israel and the Arabs.

23 August 2013 at 19:02  
Blogger Peter D said...

Only one substantial comment from me.

I do wish Christians would stop applying prophetic and theological interpretations to the Middle East and the State of Israel, especially those who 'see' the 'end times' a-coming.

Like Corrigan I refuse to accede to a demand to support Israel or Palestine based on some particular reading of Scripture. It just so happens I do support Israel because "we are where we are" and, however we got here, it is a nation and their government is responsible for securing the immediate and long term security and safety of its members - by means it judges necessary.

23 August 2013 at 19:33  
Blogger Huldah said...

Jeremy Moodey

So ... you affirm the right of Jewish self determination, but then refer commentators to the 'moral bankruptcy' of the Balfour Declaration which first proposed that Jews should be able to enjoy that self determination on their ancient homeland, and which was adopted alongside measures which gave other regional indigenous groups independence.

This seems a contradictory position.

23 August 2013 at 19:38  
Blogger Huldah said...

Peter D

I'm not sure where this post has done that, unlike the Greenbelt organisers who claim prophetic status for their event.

Did I miss something?

23 August 2013 at 19:40  
Blogger Ivan said...

Hannah the pro Israeli sentiment in India has much to do with the Israeli prowess on the battlefield, which shows up the impotence of India against Pakistan. At one time, the government of India was among the most sanctimonious when it came to the Arab-Israeli conflict, invariably winding up on the Arab side. It may interest you to know that Indian Muslims are not hung up about Jews to the same extent as the Arabs. You may recall during the 2008 siege of Bombay, seeing the Chabad House in a Muslim area in Bombay.

23 August 2013 at 19:56  
Blogger Denis Vulinovich said...

Excellent article, Archbishop!

There's been a lot of talk in recent years about the "two state solution" to the problem of Israel / Palestine. But what most people don't realise is that the two state solution was implemented over 90 years ago!

When the 1920 San Remo Conference laid the groundwork for the Arab nations of Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon, it did the same for the Jewish nation of Palestine, which was to be on both sides of the Jordan River. But the British decided to give all land east of the river to the Arabs - which became the state of Jordan. Then the 1922 Mandate for Palestine gave the remaining 22% of the land west of the river to the Jews. This was voted on by the League of Nations, and passed unanimously by 51-0.

That Mandate is legally binding, and is upheld by Article 80 of the UN Charter. But UN General Assembly resolutions - such as the 1948 Partition Plan - are only recommendations and have no legally weight.

So in 1922, the original "Palestine" of the San Remo Conference was legally separated into two states - an Arab state to the east of the Jordan River and a Jewish state to the west. So the Jews are rightful owners of the land, not "illegal occupiers".

23 August 2013 at 19:57  
Blogger Ariadne said...

Well said, Dennis. Perhaps when Israel is a provider of oil and gas the world will begin to see something of its true value.

Hannah, thank you for that. A little more detail in the Jewish Virtual Library - alas rather out of date now since there has been Jewish flight from Scotland.

I do think there must be evidence of early Jewish residence somewhere. In England before the Domesday Book was written a document of land ownership described the property of a Jew. The kind of thing that one can't see free on the internet any more, sadly.

You may call me A! Not a problem.

23 August 2013 at 20:24  
Blogger Ariadne said...

I assume that the 'Fran' mentioned by Graham Wood above is Fran of the Anglican Friends of Israel.

Graham Wood ended that post by showing himself a believer in replacement theology! That's the nasty antisemitic stuff of Sizer and cronies: supersessionism.

Add to that that the Kairos Document was of its time and place - South Africa under apartheid in the 1980s. Oh, the invisible threads that hold together the webs of lies and hate.

Two links to articles that may illuminate some shady beliefs: Jews aren't really needed any more and Anything bad South Africa did is done more so by Israel before its people get up in the morning.

23 August 2013 at 20:48  
Blogger LEN said...

Catholics and others in like minded religions will not believe they are in the' end days' unless the Pope or their cult leader tells them so.I suppose that is why they 'stop their ears' and are not allowed to read Bible Prophesy.

This of course is very foolish of them because God gives prophesy so that we (Christians) can be aware of 'the times'. Those who ignore the prophesies given in Scripture will be those like the unwise virgins with no oil in their lamps who are not prepared for the time of their visitation.

Matthew 25

25:1 "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins
who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

25:2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

25:3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,

25:4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

25:5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.

25:6 And at midnight a cry was heard:
'Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!'

25:7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps.

25:8 And the foolish said to the wise,
'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'

25:9 But the wise answered, saying,
'No, lest there should not be enough for us and you;
but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.'

25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came,
And those who were ready went in with him to the wedding;
and the door was shut.

25:11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying,
'Lord, Lord, open to us!'

25:12 But he answered and said,
'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.'
(Oil is a reference to the Holy Spirit.)

Jesus also said "MY Sheep Hear MY voice"
So to qualify as 'His Sheep' are you hearing His voice? and heeding him?.

23 August 2013 at 20:54  
Blogger Ariadne said...

I have just spotted the article by the Elder of Ziyon which provides a link to this excellent piece by His Grace.

British Christian cultural festival indoctrinates children against Israel

The Elder puts the ghastly thing in a Middle East context as some commenters have done here.

23 August 2013 at 21:00  
Blogger Ariadne said...

I do wonder what such "Christians" think of the Christian Arab volunteers in the IDF?

23 August 2013 at 21:02  
Blogger LEN said...

Israel acts as 'a magnet 'drawing all God`s enemies into the open where He will judge them by the actions and their words.God`s plans for Israel are quite clearly laid out in Scripture and our actions and our words make it quite plain which side we are on in the unveiling of God`s plan.

23 August 2013 at 21:10  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Catholics and others in like minded religions will not believe they are in the' end days' unless the Pope or their cult leader tells them so.

Hello, Len. Never let a day go by, eh? For the record, Catholics will not believe we are in the 'end days' because it is heresy to do so. Firstly, it is prometheanism, literally stealing the fire of the gods (or in this case, God). It is not for us to know the day or the hour, and when God wants us to know, He'll let us know Himself. We don't need the Pope for that, and no Pope would presume to usurp God's throne. We'll leave that to Protestants. Secondly, to take it upon ourselves to predict the 'end days', is an act of despair,or at least could be seen as such. That is a sin against hope, and as such a grave matter. Thirdly, it's an act of the most monumental hubris for any mortal to think he can predict the mind of God, and no Catholic worthy of the name will think to do such a thing. Finally, it's rubbish. Dispensationalists made it up the same way anti-Stratfordians convinced themselves that Shakespeare didn't write Shakespeare. Hope that clears things up for you. If you need a sponsor for conversion to Rome, call me any time. You too, Avi. Carl's on his own.

23 August 2013 at 21:37  
Blogger Stephen Foot said...

Jeremy Moodey,

I hope at this year's Greenbelt Festival that you will be emphasising your opposition to all forms of violence in pursuit of political goals and that you will be giving your full support for those who take appropriate measures to suppress the use of terror. Not enough is made of this side of your work. Your cause maybe suffering unnecessary hostility from those who have friends and family in Israel, or from those who simply support the Jewish State, simply because your non-violent credentials are not sufficiently emphasised. A clear and unequivocal condemnation of the murder of six Israeli citizens in the Black Sea Bombing would be a start. I am not being sarky when I say this as I've noticed the silence is deafening from the secular BDS movement (ostensibly a non-violent organisation) when it comes to condemnation of Palestinian terrorism. This should not be the case in a pro Palestinian Christian movement. Perhaps the quickest way to see progress in removing the blight that is the Security Wall, for instance, would be to lend your support to those who condemn the blasphemy of suicide bombing. Why not make it clear where you stand by giving your Christian condemnation of rocket attacks from Gaza? Any way, it's up to you, I'll know where you stand soon enough.

See you at Greenbelt.

23 August 2013 at 21:44  
Blogger Peter D said...

Len said ...
Oh dear ... Here's Lennie!

So what do your online cult leaders tell you?

Millenarianism? Which version - there are so many. Amillennialism? Preterism? Dispensationalism?
Post-tribulation pre-millennialists? The "Rapture"? Post Tribulation Resurrection-Rapture? The Rebuilding of the Temple?


The problem is so many weirdo's and whacko's (present company excluded, of course) read what they want into the Bible or try to squeeze history into their understanding.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church does provide a general order of events of End Times.

Chronologically they are:

1 The full number of the Gentiles come into the Church

2. The full inclusion of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of the full number of the Gentiles.

3. A final trial of the Church in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme deception is that of the Antichrist.

4. Christ's victory over this final unleashing of evil through a cosmic upheaval of this passing world and the Last Judgment.

Now me, I'd just as soon get on doing the right thing rather than believing I am a prophet or understand prophesy as a road map of events and, what's worse, trying to force God's Hand.

23 August 2013 at 21:53  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Corrigan : "We don't need the Pope"

Why the first good idea you've had all day old chap!

23 August 2013 at 22:13  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Re: Carl's on his own.

Oh dear. I seem not to be Corrigan's favorite person. Such is the price one must pay for stating historical truths that others might not wish to hear stated. How fortunate for me that I have already received offers of sponsorship for RCIA.

Not that I would ever take that road, of course.


23 August 2013 at 22:15  
Blogger Richard Bainbridge said...

Wow...methinks his grace doth protest too much...way too much!

23 August 2013 at 22:15  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Funny, when the Watching Iris activist dingbat types bring out the "legal-illegal" farce. As if "legal" has ever been important to them.

Listen up, you silly kids: The only valid, legal and standing agreement that has never been abrogated, not by any country, nor by the UN or by any other body is the Sanremo Conference agreement of 1920. It provides for a Jewish homeland in present day Israel, in the entire Judea and Samaria (the "West Bank") and the useful parts of what is now "Jordan." Gulp! Shocking, but true.

So go on, tell us that San Remo doesn't really count because of this or that. Or, better still, tell the world to forget about the "big mistake" of San Remo as you whine about the "indigenous Palestinian" fiction of the Syrian mendicants who came for the jobs the Turks, Brits and Zionists generated. But take the plunge and legally abrogate San Remo and watch the countries in the former Ottoman Empire lunge at each others' throats within a fortnight as a dozens of legitimate minorities claim their rights and all the arbitrary borders cry for readjustments.

So, if you want to talk real, binding legalities, and not Arab League, Islamist and Turd World sycophant fictions and wish-lists, remember that all this Palestinian-Shmalestinian nonsense, the stuffed-up goatherds installed as "kings" in "Jordan, the nonexistent 1967 "borders" and such haven't a single legal leg to stand on in the a world which pretends to respect legalities.

Oh yeah, and let's cut the silly "humanitarian" and "peace" crap. Admit to going after one thing only: the total destruction of the only Jewish nation state mere decades after the attempted destruction of the European Jews. Admit to wanting to impoverish Jews with your kauf nicht bei Juden boycotts, to isolating them from your foetid propaganda mills you call "universities" and to supporting any and all genocidal maniacs eager to shed Jewish blood. Admit that, and I might say that while you are scum, at least you are scum with a smidgen of honesty and a veneer of honour.

23 August 2013 at 22:16  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

23 August 2013 at 22:24  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

If you need a sponsor for conversion to Rome, call me any time. You too, Avi. Carl's on his own.

A generous soul you are, but poor Carl. Must you always be so hard on the Calvinists, Corrigan? Glad to see you're up on your hind legs again, creatively redefining yourself and hopefully eating better food than at the hospital. Try some Israeli wine from the Golan with you potatoes...I've a share in one of the vinyards there, so it'll be like a little communion between you and me.

23 August 2013 at 22:26  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

For the likes of Greenbelt et al, I've seen real ethnic cleansing genocide skeletons twisted into the mud, barely human, barely alive, with stench of putrifying rotting flesh that would make half of the boys here vomit within a mile, well this boy did just that ...

And why?! Because the Fascist, the evil bloody genocidal maniac fascists, decided that Jews, homosexuals, communists, gypsies and the like were nothing other than 'sub-human' or not human. If there is indeed a hell, I trust that Hitler and his minions are well and truly in it!

To compare Israel to that is a disgrace... Perhaps some of the chaps here would have preferred that the Arab armies had finished Hitler's job, so there would be NO middle east 'occupation'. Count me out of that and count me in for being pro-Jewish & pro-Israeli .

Jesus is the LION of Judah, beware, he is NOT a tame Lion and he looks after his children, the people of Israel, our Jewish friends and older brothers.

You have been warned.

23 August 2013 at 22:27  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...


My dear chap posting at twenty two, sixteen hundred hours, hear hear! Jolly show that man!

23 August 2013 at 22:38  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Apologises 'jolly GOOD show that man!'

23 August 2013 at 22:39  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

There is also too much acronyms going on here. Now the only good acronym re this thread is an 'HMS' (and USS/INS /HMCS) warship (s) taking out the blasted Iranian nuclear missiles!

23 August 2013 at 22:45  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Greetings, Lord Lavendon, a pleasure to see you on the boards again. T'was twenty two, seventeen hundred hours here, on the Western side of the big puddle between us. Chickens are cooked, candle wicks trimmed, the cork's been popped, time soon to welcome the Sabbath Queen. All the best to you and your brood!

23 August 2013 at 22:49  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Ah Avi,

Old chap. The Rapscallions are all fine... strange that my granddaughter Louise was playing the Hatikvah on the Piano, a wonderful tune, which has the nack of going from melancholy to uplifting, very Jewish and very apt.

24 August 2013 at 00:24  
Blogger Peter D said...

There is an alternative view of this situation. In the interests of balance, it should be considered.

"Christian Zionism", a product of the Puritans, gathered momentum in the 19th and 20th centuries. It s a multi-headed ideology with many variants and has influenced both American and British foreign policy. It is based on the idea that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land is a fulfilment of scriptural prophecy, and that Christians should support the existence of the Jewish State on theological grounds.

Here's what Tony Higton wrote about the "demon" Sizler:

“I have seen the best and worst of Christian Zionism. Insofar as it combats anti-Semitism, defends the existence of a safe homeland for Jewish people, promotes evangelism among Jewish people, and supports reconciliation in the Holy Land, it is good.

However, Sizer is right to criticize the serious failings of some Christian Zionism.

I agree with him in rejecting the following errors which are held by many Christian Zionists: Lack of godly compassion for the Palestinians, and of concern for their human rights and about their legitimate aspirations. A negative attitude toward Palestinians, and Arabs in general, to the point of racism. Uncritical support for Israel (a secular, sinful state like any other), justifying all its actions against the Palestinians. Neglecting or even opposing and forbidding evangelism of Israelis, sometimes believing that Jewish people can experience salvation through Judaism. Being more interested in the fulfilment of prophecy than in application of kingdom principles such as justice and reconciliation. Opposing the peace process. Sometimes advocating the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the Holy Land. Sometimes supporting the rebuilding of the temple regardless of the problematic theological implications and the danger of provoking extreme violence.”

Discuss ....

24 August 2013 at 01:15  
Blogger Peter D said...

Is the The Jerusalem Declaration on Christian Zionism, signed on behalf of the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem (Catholic), the Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem, the Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East, and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jordan and the Holy Land, ant-Semitic?

Dated August 22, 2006. The Declaration rejects 'Christian Zionism', concluding that it is a "false teaching that corrupts the biblical message of love, justice and reconciliation."

All of the above Churches in support of the Declaration are local and include Palestinian Christians.

Several reasons are given, among them the following. "The Christian Zionist programme provides a worldview where the Gospel is identified with the ideology of empire, colonialism and militarism. In its extreme form, it places an emphasis on apocalyptic events leading to the end of history rather than living Christ's love and justice today ... We call upon Christians in Churches on every continent to pray for the Palestinian and Israeli people."

The Jerusalem Declaration cites Micah 6:8, "What does the Lord require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God." Also, 2nd Corinthians 5:19, "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting sins against the sinners. He has entrusted to us the message of reconciliation." It begins with a quotation from Matthew 5:9, "Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God."

The Jerusalem Declaration condemns current Christian Zionist support for the territorial expansion of Israel, but affirms "Israelis and Palestinians are capable of living together within peace, justice and security". It supports non-violent resistance as the "most effective means to end the illegal occupation in order to attain a just and lasting peace".

In general terms, the Jerusalem Declaration rejects "Christian Zionism" for substituting a political-military program in place of the teachings of Jesus Christ. The teachings of Scripture are interpreted to center on love, justice, and reconciliation.

Discuss .....

24 August 2013 at 01:16  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


Dispensationalism is a product of the Plymouth Brethren who were in no sense Puritans. The later tended to be post millennial or amillennial. For the record, the RCC is also amillennial.


24 August 2013 at 02:02  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


You do realize that there wouldn't be any Palestinian Christians if it weren't for the Israelis. Right?

So perhaps you can explain a few things.

1. Why is the occupation illegal?

2. How would ending the occupation lead to a just and lasting peace?


24 August 2013 at 02:20  
Blogger Peter D said...

Thank you Carl

I'd say Dispensationalism is the product of a feverish imagination. It's what comes from giving people license to place whatever interpretation on Scripture they are inclined to.

And of course the Catholic Church is Amillennialism! Jesus is presently reigning from heaven, seated at the right hand of God the Father and will remain with the Church until the end of the world.

Now, where did I say I supported the idea the "occupation" was illegal, or that ending it would lead to a just and lasting peace? It's an alternative viewpoint put forward by Palestinian Christians. And they recommends non-violent means. They are entitled to have their voice heard.

Its Christian Zionism I'm opposed to in its many variants and its blind allegiance to Israel - right or wrong - based on a particular (mis)reading of Scripture.

24 August 2013 at 02:41  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


I see. Alright, I can accept that you posted those excerpts without intending to endorse the content. So then, answer me this. What influence do Palestinian Christians have on Palestinian Muslims? Or is the only purpose of this Declaration to apply pressure to the Israelis?


24 August 2013 at 02:54  
Blogger Peter D said...

And so Christians are in no doubt, the Jewish Zionism and its conception of 'end times':

- God will return the Jewish people to the Land of Israel.

- God will restore the House of David and the Temple in Jerusalem.

- God will create a regent from the House of David, the Jewish Messiah, to lead the Jewish people and the world and usher in an age of justice and peace.

- Nations will recognize that the God of Israel is the only true god.

- God will resurrect the dead
God will create a new heaven and earth.

24 August 2013 at 02:57  
Blogger Peter D said...


I've rally no idea.

I suspect its more about discouraging blind support from Christian Zionist - rather than siding with or against Israel or Palestine. As I read it, their statement, they don't think in polarised ways.

24 August 2013 at 03:00  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

David Hussell

It would, naturally, have to be from the KJV - though perhaps the MKJV or the 21st Century version to account for the lack of familiarity with Scripture.

I am actually semi-serious, and barring the fact that I am in Northern Ireland, I wonder whether it might not be a genuinely powerful form of witness. There could be no accusation that we were peddling a particular ideology, but the unadulterated Word would still cause unrest in some of the strongholds, I suspect.

Soapbox at the ready for next year then!

24 August 2013 at 04:24  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

Genesis 1:1 would probably suffice

'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth'

Very radical stuff.

I'm going to the Creation Festival in Wadebridge, Cornwall next August, it's a sort of Christian version of Greenbelt.

24 August 2013 at 05:43  
Blogger Denis Vulinovich said...

Peter D

The people you quote often use the word "justice", but I wonder what they mean?

Are they talking about legal justice? If so, why do they seem to deny the Jews' legal right to that small piece of land west of the Jordan River? That land was given to them by two binding international laws - the 1920 San Remo Declaration and the 1922 Mandate for Palestine. (See my comment above.)

Or are they concerned about travel restrictions in the West Bank? Yes that is hard for them, but why have those restrictions only been in place since the Second Intifada a decade ago? At one stage in 2002 there was a suicide bombing in Israel every week. So it's understandable if they're a bit twitchy about letting possible terrorists roam around freely. (Have you travelled to the US since 9/11?)

Or are they talking about discrimination against Arabs in Israel itself? I'm sure there is discrimination, just as there is every other land, but legally Arabs have equal rights to Jews. They have been able to vote since the very first election in 1949, and there have always been Arabs in the Knesset. And they are represented in every level of society, including the High Court.

Or are they concerned about the persecution of Christians? Yes, Christians can get a hard time from ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel, but that's nothing compared to what they get from Muslims in every other country in the Middle East (eg, Copts in Egypt). Why is the number of Christians dropping rapidly in those lands (including the West Bank), but increasing only in Israel?

I also wonder why this call for justice seems to exclude Palestinian refugees in Arab lands? After World War 2 there were 40 million refugees, all of whom were resettled - some in their own land, and some in foreign lands (such as my mother). After the 1948 Arab/Israel war, there were 800,000 Jewish refugees from Arab lands who were also resettled (about 1/3 of them in Israel). But the 700,000 Palestinian refugees from that war have never been resettled, and nor have their descendants!

So there are now 200,000 refugees in the West Bank and 1.1 million in Gaza, who do not have full rights and many of whom are forced to live in refugee camps. In Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon the numbers are even higher, and their human rights are very limited - including restrictions on the work they can do, and no citizenship for refugees born in those countries.

So these calls for "justice" seem to be very selective.

24 August 2013 at 09:26  
Blogger ENGLISHMAN said...

Well said johnny,though like a rock in a stream the water simply flows around it,having no effect,you touch upon a fundamental question,how can a country that denies self determination to its own people advocate it for another?likewise "democracy"sodomite "Christians",and weapons for terrorists,the jew and the arab are neither here nor there,this is the brezinski and pnac plan unfolding,enabled by the "usefull idiots"

24 August 2013 at 09:44  
Blogger Ariadne said...

Here is comment on Stephen Sizer by Richard Millett, a very reliable, courageous and honest blogger. There is plenty more via the links.

Stephen Sizer is an anti-Israel/anti-Zionist Christian Minister. I once went to hear him speak at a Palestine Solidarity Campaign event held in a church. He said, inter alia, that churches that side with Israel have “repudiated Jesus, have repudiated the bible and are an abomination”.

24 August 2013 at 09:55  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Anonymous Belfast,

Interesting thought. The meat would indeed be too strong for many of the revisionists.

God Bless.

24 August 2013 at 10:12  
Blogger Naomi King said...

"The Old Testament nation Israel whose covenant status found fulfilment in Jesus Christ." I don't think so ! As the Middle East rips itself apart, how can anyone who claims to follow Jesus Christ and read their Bibles be ignorant of the spiritual forces at work here?.

24 August 2013 at 11:32  
Blogger Ariadne said...

Naomi, I've been looking at the Patriarchate of Jerusalem's web site. I wonder if there is any message concerning Jewish high and holy days. I see Ramadan features.

24 August 2013 at 11:55  
Blogger Unknown said...

One only needs to follow to get the real perspective of the internal "Palestinian" narrative. When one sees how children as well as adults are indoctrinated it makes a laughing stock of such organisations as Greenbelt/Kairos

24 August 2013 at 12:07  
Blogger Ariadne said...

Fran, my profound apologies for not noting that the bulk of the article is a guest post by you.

On a scan I became riveted by your presentation of so many facts and didn't quite reach the top again until now.

Yasher koach to His Grace and Yasher kohech to you!

24 August 2013 at 12:07  
Blogger Naomi King said...

In practical terms the apostolate church will be the true believers greatest enemy. Wasn't it Cain who murdered his own brother Abel ?

As for Israel, here is what a Messianic Congregation in the LAND reported two days ago of the situation ...

"Israel is forced now to maintain a delicate balancing act. On the one hand, Israel must act to secure its south from rocket attacks and cross-border infiltrations. On the other, Israel needs to avoid embarrassing the Egyptian army with a high-profile counter-terrorism intrusion into Egyptian territory (Sinai). The IDF is quietly working to improve its capabilities.

An additional measure taken by the IDF has been to enhance air defenses around the Red Sea resort city of Eilat, which is heavily dependent on the tourism industry. These steps have gone some way to improve security, as the recent attack on Eilat has demonstrated, when an Iron Dome battery intercepted a rocket fired at Eilat from Sinai. Vacationing tourists in crowded beaches, bars, and hotels in Eilat were startled by the sound of an air raid siren and scrambled for cover, but were unharmed as the Iron Dome interceptor went into action in the skies above them.

The security measures are effective, but the dilemma remains. The Israeli army's first priority is to protect the Israeli citizens. But it has to be careful not to undermine the power of the Egyptian army in the eyes of the terrorists in Sinai. According to unconfirmed international media reports, that's what happened last week when an Israeli drone allegedly struck a terrorist cell in Sinai that was about to fire rockets into Israel. The group, Ansar Bayt Al-Maqdis, later confirmed that its "martyrs" were in their final preparations to launch rockets at Israel.

This unstable situation is likely to continue into the foreseeable future. Israel's main challenge now is protecting the country's borders without sparking a wider escalation. Read Isaiah chapter 19 in full"

24 August 2013 at 12:24  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Naomi King

Ot Judaism ended permanently and irrevocably with the destruction of the temple by the Romans in 67AD. The priesthood is gone and cannot be recreated. Without the priesthood there can be no OT Judaism. This makes sense since there is now One High Priest who made one sacrifice to atone for sin. So whatever modern Judaism is, I can tell you what it isn't. It isn't the recipient of the Mosaic Covenant. The terms of that covenant were fulfilled long ago - when the Temple was destroyed.

The Jews will always be the Chosen People from who we received the Revelation and the Messiah. But there is no more OT Judaism. It's never coming back. The temple can be rebuilt. Priests after a sort can make intercession and offer sacrifices. But they will have nothing to do with the Living God.



24 August 2013 at 12:29  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Jeremy Moodey said... "I am regularly and shamefully pilloried by Christian Zionists for his alleged anti-Semitism, an accusation I utterly refute." I was personally at New Wine this summer when Jeremy Moodey spoke and I can confirm he is utterly anti-Semitic and Godless in his presentation. Many, many Believers have written to the organisers of these New Wine events to complain about his bias and misinformation given at his talks and called for a more truthful and objective approach to be taken next year.

24 August 2013 at 12:31  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Carl I do not accept anything that you say here @ 12:29

24 August 2013 at 12:32  
Blogger Naomi King said...

And as for Syria read Isaiah 17

1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

2 The cities of Aroer are forsaken: they shall be for flocks, which shall lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

3 The fortress also shall cease from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the LORD of hosts.

4 And in that day it shall come to pass, that the glory of Jacob shall be made thin, and the fatness of his flesh shall wax lean.

5 And it shall be as when the harvestman gathereth the corn, and reapeth the ears with his arm; and it shall be as he that gathereth ears in the valley of Rephaim.

6 Yet gleaning grapes shall be left in it, as the shaking of an olive tree, two or three berries in the top of the uppermost bough, four or five in the outmost fruitful branches thereof, saith the LORD God of Israel.

7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.

8 And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect that which his fingers have made, either the groves, or the images.

9 In that day shall his strong cities be as a forsaken bough, and an uppermost branch, which they left because of the children of Israel: and there shall be desolation.

10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips:

11 In the day shalt thou make thy plant to grow, and in the morning shalt thou make thy seed to flourish: but the harvest shall be a heap in the day of grief and of desperate sorrow.

12 Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!

13 The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.

14 And behold at eveningtide trouble; and before the morning he is not. This is the portion of them that spoil us, and the lot of them that rob us.

24 August 2013 at 12:36  
Blogger Ariadne said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

24 August 2013 at 12:37  
Blogger Ariadne said...

Isaiah Chapter 19 with Rashi's commentary

24 August 2013 at 12:37  
Blogger Berserker said...

40 quid to listen to that old lefty bandwagonner, Billy Bragg.

No thanks

24 August 2013 at 12:38  
Blogger Ariadne said...

Only £30 including book for Simon Schama!

24 August 2013 at 12:40  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Naomi King

You don't accept that the OT Priesthood is gone and can't be recreated? Then read the OT description of a priest and then go find one today. It can't be done.


24 August 2013 at 12:45  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

@ Naomi.
The spiritual forces are more comlex than to say one side is right and the other wrong. I believe that Jesus Christ abhors the violence- on BOTH sides.

I find the gungho attitude of some on here to killing and maiming fellow human beings including children sickening. And i believe Jesus does too.

Let us not forget that many Jewish people abhor what their government has done on the Left Bank and Gaza.

It is never a light thing to throw people out on the street, or injure, maim, or kill another human being, nor any cause for bonhomie, community fun or celebration of human weaponry.

Furthermore the "Law brings death, but the Spirit gives life." That is what Christians believe, so much as we might be friendly to our fellow travellers, we are radical in our beliefs insofar as we go back to the root, beyond and before the Laws that Jewish people adhere to.

We do not look back to the Temple. We look forward. We do not need the restitution of the state of Israel. We are the vine. There is simply nothing more special than being in Christ. "In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female.." etc. A male Christian is no more special than a female or vice versa. And neither is a Jewish Christian more special than a Gentile Christian, so this modern obsession with Christian Zionism is odd. I don't care whether a crying child in a war-torn area is Jewish, Palestinian, black, white, dark. light, albino, yellow, green or blue. It is a disgrace and betokens the hardness of heart of adults who should know better.

24 August 2013 at 12:53  
Blogger Ariadne said...

What's a "Jewish Christian"?

24 August 2013 at 13:04  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

Ask Helen Shapiro, or Nicky Gumbel.. or Hugh Montefiore, or...

They might all give you slightly different answer, but..

All, or very nearly all of the earliest Christians were Jewish.

So was Jesus.

24 August 2013 at 13:11  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


You must first answer. What is a Jew? Is it one who holds to the spirit of Jewish religion. Is it one who holds to form an tradition while denying the spirit? Is it one born of a Jewish mother? Is it one born of a Jewish mother or a Jewish father? Is it all or any of these things? Different definitions will change the answer to your question.

On the face of it, the question "What is a Jewish Christian?" is no different from asking "What is a Jewish Atheist?" And yet the later question does not produce assertions of oxymoron. Which is both curious and inconsistent.

If a Jew can be defined by birth, then a Jewish Christian is a Christian of Jewish ancestry.


24 August 2013 at 13:19  
Blogger Ariadne said...

Carl, a Jew is one born to a Jewish mother or converted by a rabbi.

Early Christians being Jewish has nothing to do with it!

24 August 2013 at 13:32  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


If a Jew is one born to a Jewish mother, then you should not have difficulty understanding the concept of a Jewish Christian. Using that definition, one can never cease to be Jewish no matter which religion he follows.


24 August 2013 at 13:37  
Blogger Ariadne said...

Carl, in adopting another religion a Jew becomes an apostate. Unlike the Muslim counterpart no-one will murder him or her for it.

24 August 2013 at 13:45  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


I find it curious that there should be such concern over conversion to Christianity when Israel is positively overrun with atheists. Evidently, an atheist has not abandoned the Jewish faith - at least not in terms of apostasy for purposes of evaluation under the Law of Return. You said earlier that a Jew is also one who is converted by a Rabbi, and I thought to myself "What if the Rabbi is an atheist?" To what then has the man been converted? How can living as a Christian invalidate one's Jewishness when Jewishness can be established by performance of ritual under the guidance of an atheist Rabbi? How much of this is really about religion?

No matter. None of this clouds the answer to your original question. Unless you want to make the blanket declaration that "A Jew is not a Christian. He can be an atheist or an agnostic or a pagan or a Jedi Knight for all I care. But he can't be a Christian." In which case, you should just say it.


24 August 2013 at 14:23  
Blogger Peter D said...

According to the Karaite Judaism a Jew is one born to a Jewish father. That makes me a Catholic Jew. Certainly Hitler would have regarded me as such.

My father was raised as an orthodox Jew (father and mother Sephardi Jews) who converted to Catholicism. He always regarded himself as a Catholic Jew. He went further and said all "true Jews are Christian". Of course in the eyes of Judaism he had committed one of the most grievous sins imaginable and was shunned.

Controversial statement, or what?

Christian-Zionism is a denial of Jesus being the Messiah, sent to the Jews and rejected, foretold in Scripture. It is also a denial of his singular Sacrifice. When it becomes mixed with pseudo-prophesy and applied to events in the middle east today, it is a perversion of the New Testament.

We can be sure the situation in the middle east is part of God's unfolding plan - all history is. However, who can tell what this is and what precise stage we are at? All we can do in the 'here and now' is apply a Christian yardstick to the actions of politicians. And that includes the ways a nation state meets its first obligation to defend its citizens whilst, at the same time, minimising the suffering of those innocent people caught between it and its adversaries.

Being anti-Zionist is not the same thing as being pro-Islamist!

24 August 2013 at 15:38  
Blogger Peter D said...

.... or anti-Israeli or anti-Semitic.

24 August 2013 at 15:40  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Lucy Mullen @ 12:52 - It is Judah and Samaria, the ancient Heartlands of Israel that you are talking about Lucy, also properly called "The Jordanian Occupied East Bank", such woolly thinking as "the Left Bank and Gaza" leads to the error.

24 August 2013 at 16:30  
Blogger Ariadne said...

Carl, you are making it up as you go along!

24 August 2013 at 16:50  
Blogger Ariadne said...

Peter D, there's a big misunderstanding of what a messiah is in your statement. Cyrus the Great was a Messiah. There isn't one only and he (she?) doesn't have to be Jewish.

24 August 2013 at 16:52  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Carl's a creationist, Ariadne, and if I'm not mistaken, a dispensationalist. Of course he's making it up.

24 August 2013 at 18:08  
Blogger LEN said...

Peter said...'Being anti-Zionist is not the same thing as being pro-Islamist!' .

I think you might find that it is!. To wonder about in 'no mans land' in the middle of a battle is a very dangerous place to be in.

Make no mistake there is a war in Heaven which is reflected by events on the ground.

24 August 2013 at 18:16  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Ahoy ship rats and jolly tars alike…

The Inspector not long back from the beach, having been washed up on the morning tide from the Isle of Man. Splendid island, the Crown dependency, and NOT in the EU, and all the better for it…

Anyway, one is familiar with Greenbelt as they hold their thing just up the road where a fellow normally lives when he’s not on holiday. Music and all that, not to ones taste but let them carry on. Now, the problem there is that organisers of young events are normally on the youngish side. All well and good so far, but the young are notorious for their stupid sentiments, like we can all hug and get along, unlike the oldies who insist on division, fracture and fracking too probably. Something Tom Wiseacre might one day want to ponder while he’s shaving…

It’s true Tom, there are plenty out there who would wish to convert you to the religion of peace. Rather not say what they have in mind for you if you decline said generous offer.

Now grow up and do something useful with your life…

Cheery pip !

24 August 2013 at 18:17  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Ahoy Inspector!

I trust that the fresh salty air and wind of the Manx is helping you to recover sufficiently, following your ordeal on the 'other place'. Rum rations all round, what!

24 August 2013 at 18:29  
Blogger Peter D said...

I'm not in 'no man's land', at all. And if you think you know how the war in Heaven, already won, by the way, is precisely shaping up here on earth then you're deluding yourself.

What on earth makes you think Carl is a dispensationalist?

So far as I read him, he's a hard-nosed pragmatist when it comes to the secular state of Israel and protecting Western interests in the region.

Please don't play games, though I can see why you might want to.

I'm not referring to the generic term used in the Hebrew Bible to describe priests and kings anointed with holy oil like Cyrus the Great, the king of Persia, who though not a Hebrew, is referred to as "God's mashiach" in the Bible.

I'm referring to Jewish eschatology where the term "Messiah," refers to a future Jewish King from the Davidic line, who is expected to be anointed with holy oil and rule the Jewish people during the Messianic Age. Here the Messiah is often referred to as "King Messiah" or, in Hebrew, מלך המשיח (melekh mashiach).

Orthodox views hold that the Messiah will be descended from his father through the line of King David, will gather the Jews back into the Land of Israel, usher in an era of peace, build the Third Temple, father a male heir and re-institute the Sanhedrin, among other things.

Jewish tradition alludes to two redeemers, both of whom are called mashiach and are involved in ushering in the Messianic age: Mashiach ben David and Mashiach ben Yosef. In general, the term Messiah unqualified refers to Mashiach ben David (Messiah, son of David.

Am I wrong?

Now tell me, how do you regard claims that this "King Messiah" was none other that Jesus of Nazareth whom Christians believe is the promised Christ and is ruling from Heaven?

24 August 2013 at 18:35  
Blogger LEN said...

I see the Catholic 'home guard' are running true to form.
'Peter' sputtering and fuming if catholic heresies are challenged.And Corrigan well what can you say he wouldn`t know Scriptural truth if it fell on him like a ton of bricks.
Best leave them to their delusions I suppose?.
The only problem with leaving them to their own devises is the vague possibility that someone might actually believe the religious nonsense that that their brainwashed minds have embraced and spout forth as 'truth'.
God says that if you prefer the lie to the Truth then He will make sure you believe the lie I think this is one of the most frightening verses of scripture because if God makes you believe the Lie then you are truly lost without any hope.
We should embrace God`s Truth without regard to whatever our 'religion' has taught us because there will be a time when it is too late.

24 August 2013 at 18:38  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

If I may say, from a Christian perspective, whether or not you agree with the 'end days' prophecies or not, what is clearly evident is that Jews deserve and were granted a home in their home by way of international treaty (incidentally, the same international system or at least an interpretation of it, that is used to attack Israel right now). Now if the Bible is not correct (I believe it is), what is not up for discussion is the legal right of Israel to exist. So pah to that man who gave us his link to his propaganda document - Britain 'apologising' for wanting to create a Jewish state and 'giving the land to some-one else' (to Jews, from absentee Syrian landlords, perhaps, who incidentally have managed to create cornfields out of desert and who have outstanding water technology )? The two fingered salute to you sir!

Jerusalem is clearly the capital of Israel and without a doubt Israel should be there as a part of the nations of humanity.

24 August 2013 at 18:40  
Blogger LEN said...

Peter... sometimes it is better to say nothing than to lead forth and reveal your ignorance.

I suggest you tear out at least2/3rds of your bible and throw it away because you do not believe in Bible Prophesy.

God reveals His plans through His prophets to authenticate Himself....

24 August 2013 at 18:46  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


Carl's a Creationist...

Yes, I am. That is evidently something of a scandal in Europe.

... and if I'm not mistaken...

You are.

... a dispensationalist

If you can read what I have written on this thread, and conclude that I am a Dispensationalist, then frankly you have proven only that haven't the first clue what Dispensationalism is.


24 August 2013 at 18:47  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

'What would Jesus do'?

Answer : affirm the right of Jews to live in their promised land, of course. "I have come to fulfill the law, not abolish it". The law also included an affirmation that Jews were to live in a good land, a land of milk and honey.

Lucy Mullen,

I dislike violence and war. But when the push comes to the shove and when one is forced into war, then that is that. There are Biblical precedents of how and when and why people have to go to battle.

24 August 2013 at 18:47  

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