Saturday, August 31, 2013

Looking for a Church (part 2)


From Rev'd Dr Peter Mullen:

To His Grace Archbishop Thomas Cranmer of Canterbury –

I am desirous, My Lord, of such refuge that I might hear and receive the prayers and supplications of thy Book of Common Prayer. Many times have I sought but it availeth nothing. Last Sunday, My Lord, I did attend a church which back in the 16th century thou wouldst have called a real beaut. It betokeneth the less of decent order and the more of interior design. For where it accustometh us there be candles upon the Table of the Lord, most conveniently displayed, the one on the right hand and the one on the left, signifying and representing unto us the Epistle and the Holy Gospel, here the twain were set very delicately all upon one end, such that men might exclaim, “Behold, how dinky! Of a truth this belongeth in the Ideal Homes catalogue.”

The Minister essayed fair of speech, howbeit he was wont to intrude an exceeding loftiness of tongue which hath more of that delivered by the courtly players than that which is seemly in God’s dwelling-place, so that I did ponder in my heart what manner of salutation this might be. And when it cometh even unto that the prayer for the whole state of Christ’s church militant here in earth, he spake also sundry fancies and decorations to vex the ear, to wit, “especially the people of Syria and our economy here at home.” Other were there also among the superfluity of naughtinesses.

It is written, thy house shall be a house of prayer but these have turned it into a den of manifold and great adornment upon the pillars and even unto the roof thereof, behold gorgeous writings and upon the very walls also. So that them that were met together therein might murmur among themselves, “What abomination is this which standeth in the holy place?”

Moreover, Your Grace, I was astonied and sore discomfited for that it was proclaimed which Supper of the Lord should be upon the morrow, the “Priest” might be a woman. My Lord, how can these things be? And so I went my way sorrowing, for my soul waxed very heavy, and pondered within myself why, as scripture saith, I cain’t get no satisfaction. Then I came to myself and did anoint my face and gird up my loins and did purpose what I should do, even that I should cease not from walking up and down the earth seeking that comfort and resting place wherein the Ministers and Stewards of thy Holy Word do speak in a language understanded of the people and all things be accomplished in a decent order.

How long, O Lord, how long?

Rev'd Dr Peter Mullen is an author and former rector of St Michael's, Cornhill in the City of London.

84 Comments:

Blogger Martin said...

The Puritans had it right. The Church of England needs purifying now more than ever it did.

1 September 2013 at 09:42  
Blogger IanCad said...

Where's Part 1?

1 September 2013 at 09:50  
Blogger Albert said...

Dr Mullen,

It all sounds like your experience of the BCP these days is that it is "but lyke a Christmas game."

1 September 2013 at 09:55  
Blogger LEN said...

Looking for a Church?.
A far more important question that might be asked is what is 'the church?.'

Is 'the Church' a building, an Institution, a business, an 'appendage' of the State?.

As soon as 'the Church' becomes a building 'someone' owns it.Perhaps that is why 'the Church' doesn`t feature in scripture.God`s 'Ekklesia'(Congregation or group of called out believers) is far too precious to God to allow man to take possession of it.The last thing that God wants touching his salvation plan for Humanity is a man orientated religion.

God 'Church' is built on 'the Rock' which is Christ who is the Head of The Body of called out believers.Anyone can join' the Church' but you have to be born or should I say re- born into the Body of Christ.

'The Church' is dying because it is deprived of life, the Church can do many things it can run programmes, it can hold services ,and carry out social work social work but the one thing it cannot do is provide 'Life.'Only Christ can do that.
The last Adam (Christ) became a Life giving Spirit.

So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
(1Corinthians 15:45)



1 September 2013 at 10:41  
Blogger Albert said...

Len,

Perhaps that is why 'the Church' doesn`t feature in scripture

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=simple&format=Long&q1=the+Church&restrict=New+Testament&size=First+100

1 September 2013 at 11:05  
Blogger Nick said...

Len said:

" it can hold services ,and carry out social work social work but the one thing it cannot do is provide 'Life.'Only Christ can do that. "

The "Church" can, and often does, exist without a building. The requirement for Christians is to gather together, communicate, worship, encourage, and admonish. Having a physical building helps, but is not an absolute requirement.

The problem with the church as a building is that it inevitably gets trapped and side-tracked by material concerns of money, authority, interior design, etc... One has only to look at the success of missionaries such David Livingstone to see that we can spread the Gospel effectively without a building. Indeed, in this country at least, the buildings might be a hinderance to some people coming to Christ. Many perceive them as dark, gloomy, and unwelcoming, more like a tomb than the house of the Living God.

I sometimes wonder if we can't spread the Gospel more effectively through conversation, debate (why do we hardly ever use television?), meeting people in their "normal" environment, and talking in plain English (not like Shakespeare on LSD)

1 September 2013 at 11:55  
Blogger The Justice of the Peace said...

OFF TOPIC

YG your e-mail link is taken by a PC repair outfit

1 September 2013 at 12:18  
Blogger Peter D said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1 September 2013 at 12:55  
Blogger Peter D said...

Reverend Mullen, perhaps the church you visited ought to be more particular where they purchase their religious items. IKEA or the Ideal Home Exhibition, is not good! And maybe their priestess - well, best not say too there.

The most wonderful church I ever visited was back in 1970 when I was developing an early interest in Communism.

It was in a small, poor village in the Peloponnese. As I recall, it was simple, white washed walls, not over adorned but reflected artistic worship of God too. There was a beautiful and moving icon of Christ and one of Mary and the child Jesus. A tabernacle, a beautiful altar, a glowing red light signifying the physical presence of Christ. And yes candles a plenty.

Breath taking and awesome. I attended the service and whilst I couldn't understand a word, plenty of bells and smells too, somehow knew what was going on. One was taken out of oneself and it as a very spiritual experience. I didn't share the Eucharist - out of respect, and also remembering my Catholic upbringing about the conditions for doing so, yet still experienced communion with those worshipping.

Part III is around the corner.

1 September 2013 at 12:59  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Ah, the guilt of worshipping in a beautiful church. It must cause you fever old chap...

Popped into the glorious Anglican church at Leonard Stanley the other month. It was desecrated with the local primary schools attempt at art on the walls. A truly hideous sight to behold, I can tell you. And it’s not the only Anglican church in the area to go down this wretched road. Children are quite rubbish at painting. Yes madam, over there, even your precious little boy’s...

1 September 2013 at 13:45  
Blogger non mouse said...

Nice one, Dr. Mullen! That was worth logging on for - thank you.

Confusion raineth, or so methinks thou sayest.

So mine eyes are fix'd upon cloudy hopes.

1 September 2013 at 14:49  
Blogger marlojay said...

BCP services are heritage religion at its worst. I occasionally have to attend one when visiting friends outside London. I always look around at the six old people in church and wonder, where is the rest of the village?

1 September 2013 at 16:24  
Blogger jante said...

If you had been present in our village church this morning you would have been blessed with a BCP service according to the book- with fair white cloth upon the table and a candle at either end- but alas I was presiding and I'm a woman!

1 September 2013 at 18:12  
Blogger Little Black Sambo said...

"I was presiding and I'm a woman!"
So it wasn't really a BCP service.

1 September 2013 at 18:26  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Children are quite rubbish at painting. Yes madam, over there, even your precious little boy’s...

Gasp! Hush, Inspector! Plonk, goes little Johnny's self-esteem into the toilet bowl. But seriously, the best of children's art belongs on the walls of the nursery or the family home, not imposed on the already suffering public which now cannot find an escape from inanities even in religious institutions. This tendency to decorate sanctuary walls with children's art owes its origin to the misguided assumption that turning a church or a synagogue into an extension of a romper-room will bring in the most desirable patrons: Young Families with Children.

(A tip to those parents here who struggle with the conflicting desires to encourage their young to do something other than gaze at the TV or play with devices all day, and at the same time not to turn their domicile into an eyesore of crumpled garish drawings stuck with masking tape to the walls. I recommend the Casa Barzel curatorial approach, where we have properly mounted, framed and even lit-up our darlings' top attempts and devoted a wall and a display cabinet in the family room. As with much of modern art, the display's background, lighting and setting is what makes the difference. The trick is to pick a dedicated, smallish area and never expand it beyond its agreed borders, but as in galleries, to replace rather than add and to circulate the works.)

At the same time, Inspector, I suspect that the increasing appearance of children's art is a sign of a revolt against the authoritarian art establishment and its curators who have been selling us utter shlock and shite for o-so-many decades now. Take a trip to your local public gallery and marvel at the befuddling "works" and "installations." After an hour or so during which your frame of reference will be re-set, you will agree that children's stream-of-consciousness smears are a veritable balm to the shell-shocked eye and ravished brain and that if nothing else, they at least win hands-down on technical merit, such as the ability to grip a brush.

1 September 2013 at 19:42  
Blogger ardenjm said...

"...May the plea for peace rise up and touch the heart of everyone so that they may lay down their weapons and be let themselves be led by the desire for peace.

To this end, brothers and sisters, I have decided to proclaim for the whole Church on 7 September next, the vigil of the birth of Mary, Queen of Peace, a day of fasting and prayer for peace in Syria, the Middle East, and throughout the world, and I also invite each person, including our fellow Christians, followers of other religions and all men of good will, to participate, in whatever way they can, in this initiative.

On 7 September, in Saint Peter’s Square, here, from 19:00 until 24:00, we will gather in prayer and in a spirit of penance, invoking God’s great gift of peace upon the beloved nation of Syria and upon each situation of conflict and violence around the world. Humanity needs to see these gestures of peace and to hear words of hope and peace! I ask all the local churches, in addition to fasting, that they gather to pray for this intention.

Let us ask Mary to help us to respond to violence, to conflict and to war, with the power of dialogue, reconciliation and love. She is our mother: may she help us to find peace; all of us are her children! Help us, Mary, to overcome this most difficult moment and to dedicate ourselves each day to building in every situation an authentic culture of encounter and peace. Mary, Queen of Peace, pray for us!"

Franciscus
Message before the Angelus
September 1, 2013

1 September 2013 at 20:51  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Avi,

I'm sure your art work is fantastic! We've now officially gotta Chief Rabbi now!

And a Shanah Tovah to you!

1 September 2013 at 20:58  
Blogger Odin's Raven said...

Looking for a church? Tired of Political Correctness?

Why not try the English Folk Church?
English Folk Church

1 September 2013 at 21:04  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Greetings Avi. Far be it for this man to object to little Johnny’s efforts on a church wall, especially to families where the female is bigger than the male. (One suspects you know exactly the type of family !). Having brought the little one to term, despite the pregnancy advisory people’s best efforts to secure a termination, he /she finds herself with one or none siblings. So instead of starting off in life with the rough and tumble of interaction with their brothers and sisters, our child does so with their manufactured presence on the cold walls of the parish church. How desperately sad...


1 September 2013 at 21:09  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Anyways, just watching 'the story of the Jews' on BBC 2.

1 September 2013 at 21:11  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

ardenjm. Frank has managed to mention the Syrian conflict without reference to the fundamentalist muslim rebels trying to turn the place into another Iran.

Just why are people so reticent to support Assad. He has an unenviable task of keeping his largely unpleasant population in their place...


1 September 2013 at 21:16  
Blogger ardenjm said...

@OIG
I guess the Pope is hoping that Our Lady's intercession and our prayers and good will might obtain from God the graces needed to convert hearts and bring peace.

It's on a whole other level to socio-religious analysis.

The fact that the Pope hasn't come out in favour of "regime change" is indication enough that he's aware that Assad might be a bully boy murdering thug - but those who are fighting against him are bully boy murdering thugs, too, for the most part...

1 September 2013 at 21:20  
Blogger Peter D said...

ardenjm

And 9 days later, on 15th September, is the feast of Our Lady of Sorrows.

Maybe the 'old fashioned' Christian practice of a Novena is in order:

God, come to our assistance.
Lord, make haste to help us.
Glory to the Father,
and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever.
Amen.

1 September 2013 at 21:30  
Blogger William Lewis said...

Dr Mullen

Your disquiet seems to have attracted adorations of Mary and Odin. Have you considered counting your blessings in part III?

1 September 2013 at 21:35  
Blogger Peter D said...

Inspector
Prayer is a bit of a thorny issue with you, I understand.

Besides prayer, the Pope went on:

“With all my strength, I ask each party in this conflict to listen to the voice of their own conscience, not to close themselves in solely on their own interests, but rather to look at each other as brothers and decisively and courageously to follow the path of encounter and negotiation, and so overcome blind conflict,”

Personally, I'd go for prayer that God may change the hearts and minds of the protagonists!

1 September 2013 at 21:37  
Blogger LEN said...

There is only One Mediator between man and God.. the Lord Jesus Christ.

Why anyone would want to try and by- pass God`s ordained Mediator is beyond me and quite frankly is an insult to the Lord Jesus Christ.

I find it somewhat surprising that a denomination[Catholicism] that is so against women priests prays to a 'Lady' who has no authority to hear prayers or act on their behalf?.

1 September 2013 at 21:45  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Peter D. There is no panic button available for God’s human creation. We just can’t stop the show and plead to the Almighty, “This isn’t right. For your sake, do something about it”. Why should there be ? Of course, there may be the possibility that God runs some sort of popularity contest, and depending on how many souls cry out to him, might pick the highest scoring and work behind the scenes on the case. Or, he may just work behind the scenes anyway, irrespective of our immediate wants from him.

But it’s a bit of a cheek approaching him in the first place. If there is a problem, then WE sort it out. It’s because we are not divine, but human...


1 September 2013 at 21:59  
Blogger Peter D said...

Inspector
This has all been covered before on an earlier thread. Do pay attention now your mind is becoming increasingly unsullied by previous preoccupations. (I did notice you had a slight relapse.)

God knows His plan - in the instant He conceived it happened. All the things we consider variables were accounted for. This includes His moving us to prayer, conversion and reprobation. It's a mystery beyond the comprehension of the human mind, even one blessed with an IQ in the region of 120, and theologians have pondered it for generations.

This isn't fatalism. It still requires action on our part. It's recognition that God listens to prayer and responds if it be for our good and His unfolding plan of our salvation. So, if you're moved by the plight of people in Syria - pray. He doesn't change His mind and its not a popularity contest. It signifies solidarity with those people, regardless of race, creed or colour, suffering because of human evil.

The Lord's Prayer captures it perfectly and Jesus' prayer to His Father in Gethsemane is a demonstration of . how we should respond.

1 September 2013 at 22:21  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Peter D. If you don’t expect Devine intervention as a result of your whines, then you won’t be disappointed. If it happens, then that’s a bonus...

2 September 2013 at 00:03  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Inspector

“This isn’t right. For your sake, do something about it”.

You feel it too then? The sense that something is profoundly wrong?

I think, though, that God has done something about it, the fruits of which have yet to be fully realised. It's tied up with this point you make:

"...it’s a bit of a cheek approaching him in the first place"

You're absolutely right. It is a cheek - how dare we approach the Creator of the Universe, so vastly beyond us? We're not even within the Covenant He made with His chosen people. You and I have no right whatsoever to ask God for anything.

But Jesus does: He has every right under and above all Creation.

"Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4:16)

Jesus is the link you're looking for. He's why we can pray in confidence, and He's the proof of God's unending Love for you.

2 September 2013 at 00:55  
Blogger Peter D said...

Inspector
I never whine, dear chap. I trust God's goodness - always.

Do you ever pray? A priest once asked me what my relationship with Christ was like. Did I ever talk with him? Did I listen to His reply? Good questions, don't you think?

And if you are a Catholic, you will surely believe in the power of intercessory prayer through the Mother of our Saviour. All taken into account, of course, when God conceived our existence.

Here's a tough one:
"Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

2 September 2013 at 01:42  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

Me too. Thought it very good on the whole.

2 September 2013 at 05:01  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

Veneration ( i.e. worship of and prayers to ) Mary the mother of Jesus is one of the heresies over which I rejected and left the Roman Catholicism I was born and raised in.

There is only one mediator, Jesus, of whom Mary's last recorded words in Scripture were ' Whatever he tells you, do it.' (John ch 2 vs 5)

Google 'Queen of heaven.' This title is used in the Bible, but not of Mary.

2 September 2013 at 05:12  
Blogger ardenjm said...

I have a sneaking feeling that certain comments are sent in my direction... which prompts me to revisit my Catechism.

And what do I find?
Ah, yes:
Latria: the worship that is due to God ALONE
Dulia: the veneration that honours the friends of God that we call the saints
Hyperdulia: the particularly high honour we show to the one who gave birth to the Word made Flesh (in her, her flesh, let's not forget). The one who not only bore Him, but had a sword pierce her soul as Simeon said at Calvary, who was present at Our Lord's first miracle 'and the disciples saw His glory and believed in Him' - and indeed, only ever points us to the one she gave flesh to: "Do whatever He tells you."

How giving honour to such a saint is considered heretical completely escapes me. I'm not sure it's possible to honour her enough, frankly, and since God chose her "blessed amongst women" and made her "full of grace" - full, mind, not half full - I think I'd rather go with God's honouring of her than certain cramped protestants on here who think they actually show greater fidelity to her Son by making sure they snipe at the way His disciples love His Mother.
That really WOULD be messed up families.
But since Our Lord is God and therefore infinitely Holy - and since He saved His Mother from sin - all sin, including Original Sin - I don't think we can accuse them of dysfunctional, fallen human relations.
The rest of us, however...most certainly do bring a sinful humanity to bear when looking at this question. So I'll stick with Jesus and Mary on this one.

I like this little Old Testament anticipation of what is brought to completion, perfection and accomplishment in the New Testament. But if you want to get hung up on "Queen of Heaven" being used for pagan goddesses than your head must REALLY spin when you realise that both Satan - and Our Lord are called Morning Star in the Bible: Isaiah 14 vs 12 and Revelations 22 vs 16.

Once again - a Protestant's soap-boxing pontifications shows us just how lucky we are to have magisterial guidance on right interpretations of Sacred Scripture...

Anyway - back to the RIGHT understanding of Our Lady's place in the eyes of Our Lord - an anticipation of which is found in the Old Testament 1 Kings 2 vs 17:

"When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king's mother, and she sat down at his right hand."

And of course the friends of Christ all pray and intercede for one another - there ARE no "dead" when you are alive in Christ. So Angles, Saints and us here on earth, we are, most certainly members of the same Body that is Christ's and is called the Church.
As if physical death kills the soul and separates those who are alive in the Charity of God. What nonsense.
Sancta mater dei ora pro nobis!






2 September 2013 at 09:59  
Blogger LEN said...

I cannot but think that the Catholic 'Mary' bears no relationship at all to Mary the Humble servant of God the Mother of Jesus Christ.

Interesting that a Catholic refers to his 'catechism' rather than the Word of the Creator?.

One time when Jesus was speaking, a woman in the crowd proclaimed, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed” (Luke 11:27). There was never a better opportunity for Jesus to declare that Mary was indeed worthy of praise and adoration. What was Jesus’ response? “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it” (Luke 11:28). To Jesus, obedience to God’s Word was more important than being the woman who gave birth to the Savior.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/virgin-Mary.html#ixzz2dj6wr5lC

2 September 2013 at 10:41  
Blogger LEN said...

Why therefore is Jesus Christ the ONLY Mediator between a Holy God and Fallen man?


The only person who can truly understand each one of us is someone who has 'walked in our shoes' Jesus did this But remained perfectly righteous.Jesus felt everything we have felt.He felt pain, He felt grief,he was betrayed,He felt compassion for the hurts and the pains of humanity because he experienced them. He felt every human emotion yet remained God.
In the Old Testament to approach God would mean instant death unless one went through the High Priest (even he approached God in fear of his life!)
Since Jesus made atonement for OUR sins at Calvary He has become our High priest who intercedes for Us before God.
We cannot approach God in' a way of our own devising' but through the 'torn veil.'The veil at the Temple which formed a barrier between God and man( to protect fallen man from a Holy and Righteous God) was torn from top to bottom at Calvary.

Christ is our 'Mercy Seat'. He is our propitiation that turns away the wrath of God. He is the removal of all our sins. “Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need” (Hebrews 4:16). God through the sacrifice of His own Son opened the way into His holy presence.




2 September 2013 at 11:06  
Blogger ardenjm said...

@LEN
There's nothing that you've said about Our Lord that I disagree with here.
But I disagree that you then conclude that:
Asking Our Lady to pray for us goes against this.
Do you not have a Guardian Angel who protects you on a God-given mission?
Do not Angels minister to the followers of Christ? We see it in Acts several times.
Does not the Bible exhort us to pray for one another, to intercede for one another. Why, Acts again even extends holy properties to handkerchiefs that have come in to contact with the Apostles and even their shadows!
Are these not all examples of Christ's merciful grace being offered through the mediation of human (and even inanimate) instruments?
It looks like it to me.

And you somehow conclude that the Mother of Our Lord - she who intercedes and mediates to Jesus by saying, "they have no more wine" - does not, somehow - have a role that Our Lord assigned her?

"Woman - behold your son."

I rarely have quarrels with Protestants when they say true things about Our Saviour. But they think their minimalist version is the full truth.

It isn't.

Christ's Body the Church is (just like our bodies) an instrument that He makes use of to give His saving grace and restore all things to the Father.

This is in the Catechism - because it's in the Bible. Everything I have said here is either a direct quote or a clear allusion (if you know your Scripture, that is) to Biblical teaching.

Basically, you are making constant appeals to a magisterium and tradition that is Protestant - but you fail to see that you are doing so by claiming (falsely, as it happens) to just be giving the pure, unadulterated Word of God.
This is not how Scripture tells us to read the Word of God! Scripture itself indicates that Tradition and a Magisterium are necessary for a whole (catholic) reading and understanding of Revelation.
Protestants rejected that.
And this explains why there are 10,000 different Protestant churches.

Oh, and lastly, call me oversensitive - but referring to me as 'a Catholic' smacks of failing to see that I'm a person.
Call me by my name, LEN, please. I'm not some nameless entity that you have decided needs to be opposed for the sake of evangelical truth. At the very least in your eyes I should be a soul that needs the saving light of Protestantism. Sorry, you'd say the saving light of the pure unadulterated Word of God.

(Not that that is what you are giving me, but there.)

Obedience to God's word is FAR more important than having blood relations with Christ.
Jesus understood semitic culture and He understood tribal societies. We see both in the way Muslims who claim lineage with Mohammed are treated as in some way special.
This is one of the reasons why Our Lady had only one Son. And why Our Lord never married:
Belonging to Christ is NEVER a question of blood relations but of the Holy Spirit and Baptism.
So, thanks for reinforcing Catholic teaching that "the brothers" of Our Lord are members of his wider family (again, a common semitic usage).

Did Our Lady obey the Lord and thereby become a true disciple?
"I am the servant of the Lord be it done to me according to your word."

"All generations shall call me blesséd" says Our Lady in Luke's Gospel.
Let's hear it then, LEN: Let's hear you repeat the words of Elizabeth:
“Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"

What was true for Elizabeth is true for us all.
Only some of us, on pretext of honouring exclusively her Son refuses to allow Mary to visit them. They thereby lose the Son by refusing entry to the Mother:

"Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


2 September 2013 at 11:37  
Blogger The Judicious Hooker said...

Dr Mullen

I understand your frustration. The C of E and her offshoots are not what they were. New services do not supplant the authorized liturgy of the BCP...my carbunculars!

I attended a contemporary liturgy with a Mozart setting on Trinity 14. Only the gradual was 'social gospel' claptrap which used a traditional tune as it makes it easier for congregants to swallow/sing the leftist drivel, masquerading as divine worship.

Refreshed (minus the gradual) and duty done, I returned home and celebrated 'with angels and archangels and all the company of heaven' BCP Mattins and Litany. A wholesome practice which I followed later with Choral Evensong thanks to BBC Radio 3.

PS: Am I the only one calling into question our current leadership after the ABC's call for us to repent of the abomination of 'homophobia'? The reason: apparently people under 35 consider 'homophobia' in the same category as racism.

This is mission-based preaching at its finest. As it is well known Anglicans are the most ruthless persecutors of those with same sex attraction among contemporary religions, we all need to repent of our vicious 'homophobistic' ways (while contextualising and relavitising the scriptural witness against same sex sexual relations) and then that great miracle will happen: the under 35's will start flocking to church!

It's going to be a long 10 years under the 105th successor to St.Augustine's chair.

2 September 2013 at 13:11  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

Ardenjm

I have lost most of the anger that I acquired on discovering that the Romish entity in which I had been raised and schooled had fed me false history and theology.

But the last 2 paragraphs of your 11.37 post go some way to replenishing it.

Can you clarify that you are in fact saying that veneration of the mother of Jesus is actually necessary for the penitent sinner to be able to access salvation in Christ? It reads like it.

2 September 2013 at 13:11  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Peter D: 22:21

Re the Inspector's slight relapse.

Myself, I think the Inspector has made heroic efforts to keep off a particular topic. All credit to him!

Of course there'll be the odd lapse or two: simply evidence of our fallen nature.

2 September 2013 at 14:47  
Blogger Peter D said...

Appleseed
"There is only one mediator, Jesus, of whom Mary's last recorded words in Scripture were ' Whatever he tells you, do it.' (John ch 2 vs 5)"

You'll be more familiar with the bible text and its content but, from memory isn't this an example of Mary interceding directly with her Son whilst He was living? And He responded although, it seems, under some humorous duress.

Wedding feast of Cana, yes?

And Jesus' last act on the Cross?
The gift of Mary to the Church. He placed His mother's care in the hands of the only apostle present at the cross, John.

2 September 2013 at 14:58  
Blogger ardenjm said...

@Steve Apple
I'm sorry to have been an occasion of sin for you and have made you angry.
I suspect though that you have "issues" with the Church so even if my red flag was only the size of a postage stamp you'd probably come stomping along in righteous indignation.
However, to prove how ecumenically sensitive I am, let me reassure you that I am aware that when speaking of Our Lady some of our more fragile Protestant brethren see that as a king-sized sheet of a red flag.

And let me reassure you that the Church teaches that salvation comes from Our Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ Crucified and Risen.
In fact, the Church has always taught that.
We're saved by His merits and the grace He freely offers us. We certainly don't deserve it.
This is the means that Almighty God has chosen to save us: the Incarnation, death and Resurrection of the Eternal Word, His beloved Son.
His sacred humanity is the instrument par excellence of God's mercy.

(Do you see where I'm going with this yet?)

Since He is Almighty God, however, He could have just said, "Be saved" and we would be saved. (In fact some of our less discerning Protestant brethren do believe something remarkably similar to this - and in that respect they are basically Muslims without realising it.) But, no, the Church's 2000 year teaching has been that God, in His Wisdom, chose to save us by means of the Incarnation of His Son.

He CHOSE to save us this way as the means beyond all others to reveal His Love, Truth, Grace AND, we should add, the fullness of His Divine Nature as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Since He chose, in His Wisdom this way of saving us we should be attentive to every detail of his saving plan. And at the heart of the Incarnation is the Blessed Virgin Mary. Salvation starts - incarnates! - in her.
The Catholic Church has never taught dogmatically that Mary saves or redeems humanity. Even the idea of the co-redemption needs to be understood as an extension in Mary of the saving grace of Christ: Christ, obviously, can't experience the suffering of compassion towards His own sufferings on the Cross. His Mother, however, can and does - and this is what she offers to God as she witnesses the saving death of her Son. (Her Son, too, let us not forget.)

So - why do I say what I say about devotion to Our Lady being "essential" for our salvation. It is only essential ex post facto: God, having saved us in Jesus Christ wishes for us to have devotion to His Mother. In other words, love towards Mary becomes a sure sign of ones closeness to Christ. A litmus test, so to speak, of the authenticity of our faith.
If you find yourself impatient with Catholics like myself - that's entirely understandable!
But if you find yourself emotionally veering away from the Mother of God because 'that's a Catholic heresy' - that's a bad sign for you. You should have tenderness towards Mary - even if Catholics such as myself do such a bad job of encouraging it.
She is, after all, the Mother of all disciples of the Lord - as Our Lord shows from the Cross.
Why should the Catholics (and the Orthodox) get to keep her all to themselves ; )

Hope that clarifies.

2 September 2013 at 14:58  
Blogger LEN said...

Ardenjm,
despite your many words I cannot find anything you have said to convince me any other than you are totally wrong to pray to Jesus`s mother instead of God?.

The reason that there are so many protestant Churches is a direct result of the Catholic Church making up its 'own religion' rather than keeping to scripture.The Reformers were trying to discover God`s Truth that had been buried under deceptions traditions and misinterpretations. The first 'Church split' was the Roman and the Eastern churches parting company because of Roman heresies and the Roman pope wanting total control over all the Churches(as he still wants to do so today, its a 'power thing 'and the means he uses are manipulation deception and control)

On day if you discover the truth about your religion you will also discover that those you have trusted to guide you have lied to you.

2 September 2013 at 15:11  
Blogger ardenjm said...

@LEN
I'll keep this simple.
1. We have a notion in Catholicism called 'invincible ignorance'. It means sometimes an individual just can't 'get' the teaching that is being taught him.
I think of that when I read this in your post:

"you...pray to Jesus`s mother instead of God"

No we don't.
Never said that. Why did I never say it? Because it's not what we do. OF COURSE we pray to God. We ASK Mary to pray for us to God, too. Just as I might ask you to pray for me.

But this conversation has been had with you multiple times before. So either you wilfully refuse to hear what's being said to you. Or, and I hope so for your sake: it's a case of invincible ignorance.

2. "the reason that there are so many protestant Churches is a direct result of the Catholic Church making up its 'own religion' rather than keeping to scripture."
Nope. The reason there are so MANY is because you squabble amongst yourselves. The Orthodox, like you say, disagreed with Rome too. And, guess what, they are divided too. Less divided than the Protestants - (although they've been doing some catching up lately). It's a bit rich to argue that, for example, John Wesley split off from the Anglicans because of the Catholics...
etc etc etc

And, in any case, why don't you all get back together then. Just club together and become one Protestant Church. You don't need the Catholic Church for that, do you? Oh, hang on. That's EXACTLY what you need. Because, having rejected the Petrine role, authority and office, you have NO solid foundation for your Churches... hence the 10,000.

Please note. (Invincible ignorance warning again) I DO NOT say you have no solid rock foundation for your FAITH - because that rock is Our Lord Jesus Christ. And there are many sincere and good Christians out there who are firmly founded on Jesus. BUT Jesus's intention - God's plan - was to establish a CHURCH. And He founded THAT Church on the rock of Peter's Faith.
When you reject the Petrine Office - as the Protestants and Orthodox did - you end up dividing the Church into groups that can't put Humpty Together Again....



2 September 2013 at 15:32  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

Arnedjm

Being angry isn't a sin. Scripture says 'do not let the sun go down on your anger...in your anger do not sin...the anger of man does not work the righteousness of God. but anger itself is often the only appropriate response. For example see Paul's letter to the Galatians where he was absolutely hopping mad about the introduction of false doctrine and a different gospel. You may recall that he sharply rebuked Peter over his hypocrisy?

It is no sin to be angry about being lied to, and I was systematically lied to about many issues during my Catholic upbringing, and then denied straight answers to honest questions when I dared ask them.

And yes I was physically abused at Catholic secondary school (only blows around the head and shoulders for the most part, the sadistic taunts probably did more harm) and when I mentioned about the pervert 'priest' (who was quietly moved on) to my father I was basically told to shut up because such things could not be.

We were constantly being taught about all the faithful martyrs murdered by evil protestants, never a mumbling word about the other side. All Edmund Campion and Thomas More, no mention William Tyndale, Latimer, Ridley or indeed our host.

And I am also familiar with invincible ignorance, and am sorry to say that I have seen it closer to home than I can bear to say.

There is another theoretical reason as to why there are so many Protestant sects (although your estimate of 10,000 is I suspect a wild overestimate). Satan is always trying to corrupt from within churches that are a threat to him and every now and then the stench becomes too great for the true believers in that church, so they leave and try to make a fresh start. A good strategist (which Satan is) concentrates his resources against his greatest threat.

And please don't try to obfuscate over the issue of people praying to Mary. Yes they do, I have seen them do it.

And Mary didn't have only one child, as Rome so unbiblically teaches. We read several references to the brothers and sisters of Jesus in the NT. There would have been no reason for Mary and Joseph not to have done what married people do after the birth of Jesus, indeed the failure to have had more children would have seemed abnormal, even a reproach, in Jewish culture.

I can sympathise with the RC dilemma over the extra biblical 'perpetual virgin' myth. If you own up on that one, then what else are you going to admit was added to Scripture?

Anyway, I am as capable as the next man of banging on about the errors of Rome, Foxes' book of martyrs etc but in view of all the rest of what's happening plus th edirty linen in public issue I think it better if I don't budget any more time and energy.


kind regards.

2 September 2013 at 18:27  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...



Peter D asks if this man prays. Well, let’s just say he’s loathe to bother anyone. And no, this man does not consider his faith as small as a mustard seed.

Belfast. Yes, one truly believes that Jesus looks out for us. But that he doesn’t wave the flag as he goes about it.

Seed. Anyone caught ‘worshipping’ Mary rather than considering her as an intercessory with the Almighty would have been caned by the Carmelites. And on returning home, would have been beaten around the head by his mother with her umbrella. Very popular is Mary with the RC devout ladies. Very popular indeed. If you criticise the Marian approach in their presence, you do so at some risk. ‘Don’t mess with Mary’ would sum it up.

ardenjm. What has always struck this man is how Protestantism does not do unearthly hierarchy. Though of course, if you did not show due respect to your elders and betters in times past, including Protestant gentlemen of the clergy, you would have received their wrath for your remiss. Yet these men of worth find it incongruous there can be similar in the realm of Heaven. Hence Mary is denied her rightful place, perhaps on the grounds that if one exception is made, then everybody else will be putting in a claim. We may all be equal before God, in as much as he would not recognise temporal status, but not to him, surely ?

Len. There was never a better opportunity for Jesus to declare that Mary was indeed worthy of praise and adoration.. You DARE to suggest to the Lord of Hosts !! How our Saviour managed to complete his mission on earth without referring to your wisdom, or complete lack of it, depending on your point of view, is a wonder to behold…

Explorer. The Inspector has been given tentative permission to revisit problematic nauseous gay site, under clinical supervision of course, as early as 2015. Can’t wait !



2 September 2013 at 18:28  
Blogger ardenjm said...

@Steve Apple
oh, okay, sinless anger - like Our Lord in the Temple. So I was right first time:
you're just displaying self-righteous indignation that's convinced itself that it's righteous indignation.

I'm sorry you experienced the whole catalogue of crimes committed by Catholics (weren't there nuns with warts who pinched you, too and told you you'd go to hell? - surely there must have been half a dozen of those?)

I've had my fair share of grim experiences at the hands of Catholics, and monks and family members.
But I'm sure you're suffering was WORSE and that that trumps mine and allows you to express all this (self) righteous anger. Yadda yadda yadda.

Evil is everywhere.
Certainly within the Church.
As Our Lord told us it would be.

As for the rest of your remarks: well, you're not really saying them to may but saying them AT me. And I don't see why I should become an opportunity for you to do that. I take no pleasure in seeing someone become a broken record. I've had enough of experience of Jehovah Witnesses and Salafist Muslims to want to repeat the experience on here.

So - we explain the splintering into thousands of protestant sects because after their initial fervour and faithfulness to the Gospel people backslide. (Is that possible, if, as good Protestants you've already been saved? I thought only Catholics believed in losing your Faith etc). ANYWAY - let me reassure you: 10,000 protestant churches is a conservative estimate:

According to the Dictionary of Christianity in America [Protestant] (Downers Grove, IL: Intervarsity Press, 1990): "As of 1980 David B. Barrett identified 20,800 Christian denominations worldwide . . ."

Now, there is one Catholic Church - of which Roman and associated Eastern rites. There are about a dozen Orthodox Churches. Another dozen or so Assyrian, Coptic and Oriental churches.
So that leaves 20,750 Protestant movements. Doing their thing. Now, according to you - this is because Satan is dividing them. Which is odd, because that's exactly the argument that I'd use about the very first Protestants splitting away from the Church.
And here's something even odder: you'd say it was the Holy Spirit inspiring men like Luther and Calvin and (yikes!) even someone like Cranmer.
But if you go to any of those split-off little Protestant groups you'll hear their pastors saying the exact same thing: "The Holy Spirit led me to leave Church X and to reject Church Y so I started Church Z."
Yep.
Whatever.

Catholics don't worship Mary.
But you've decided that we do. Too much appleseed no doubt.
What's genuinely sad, from my point of view is that you've therefore decided to turn your back on her, because she's too wrapped up with the Catholic "lies".
You shouldn't.
She loves you with a maternal tenderness.
That's just the way Jesus wanted it.
You're missing out on something that can make your faith deeper, more compassionate and closer to the heart of Jesus.
But He leaves us free.

It's your choice.

2 September 2013 at 19:09  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Chin up, that seed. One did hear of one young lad who had a bit of a hard time of it at school in the last few decades.

Didn’t realise it was you...

2 September 2013 at 20:02  
Blogger Peter D said...

Inspector
A Catholic education, eh? Those Brothers and Sisters certainly knew how to keep us in line - just as the Bible recommends too.

The yoof of today dictate in the classroom - 'right's of the child' - and we wonder why society crumbles before our very eyes.

Still, it's shame when the more sensitive 'types' take umbrage and transfer their unresolved 'issues' onto the Church rather than get over it. Had a good few canings in my time, let me tell you, and all deserved too. Have to admit I never met a sexually deviant priest but I can understand how this would try one's faith. But a bit of firm discipline? No.

3 September 2013 at 01:06  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

I'm not being drawn into detailed rebuttals of ardenjm's and others' misrepresentations of my position beyond clarifying that I had no problem with discipline and ordinary physical chastisement i.e. the ferula across the hand but am talking about sadistic beatings and humiliation that caused mecto live in nauseated fear for 2 years of my youth, a level of cruelty which today have led to prison for the perpetrator. However, it wasn't that which led me to swim theTiber.

It was encountering the Glorious Gospel of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ for the first time at university. And then reading my Bible. I came to the conclusion that as Rome and Scripture conflicted on many points I had to choose one or the other. When I asked my parish priest what shocked me most was that he obvioulsy hadn't even thought about the issues. He more or less toldcme not to readcthe Bible but trust to Magisterium and papal infallibility instead.

Of course there are some heretical Protestant sects (could you name 50 let alone 20,000?), but Rome is united in heresy, and may I say an insufferably high sense of self worth and immunity from reflection on the possibility that she might be wrong. The latter fault IMHO is the deadlieet of errors as it prevents other errors being adressed.

Kind regards

3 September 2013 at 05:44  
Blogger The Explorer said...

ardenjm @ 19:09

You should note that Barrett also listed 242 Roman Catholic denominations. USA one denomination, Canada another denomination and so on.

How many countries have an Anglican presence? That's the number of Anglican denominations.

It's by an eccentric use of the word 'denomination' that he arrives at his ridiculous figure.

3 September 2013 at 07:17  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

What is the difference between God and an English man? God knows he is not English.

3 September 2013 at 07:38  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Cressida

Does that mean the English man isn't English either, but doesn't know it?

3 September 2013 at 07:49  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Cressida:

I actually think you have hit on a great truth. Any Christian in England ought to be Christian first and English second, not the other way round.

That's what frightened Hobbes so much: loyalty to God above loyalty to the State! That's why he took steps to put it right.

3 September 2013 at 07:54  
Blogger William Lewis said...

Rambling Steve said

"When I asked my parish priest what shocked me most was that he obvioulsy hadn't even thought about the issues. He more or less told me not to read the Bible but trust to Magisterium and papal infallibility instead."

It would seem that the spirit that had William Tyndale executed for daring to bring scripture to the people is still around today.

Here is Christ's view on the importance of His mother:

While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” Mat 12:46-50

Strong stuff!

3 September 2013 at 08:51  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

Don't be ridiculous Explorer. You cannot possibly expect an English man not to think of himself as English first and foremost above all else. God is not an English man.As a matter of fact he is French!

3 September 2013 at 09:30  
Blogger ardenjm said...

@Cressida

Dieu, un français? Mais non! Une française! enfin!

Why would any being desire to be anything else, non?

; )

3 September 2013 at 09:41  
Blogger ardenjm said...

@The Explorer

The point I was making is that Protestantism is inherently, genetically 'protesting' and thus schismatic. They might all be 'Protestant' more or less but their mutual anathemas are only equalled by the fact that they all agree to reject the Catholic Church.
There is no unity amongst them.
So the figure I originally quoted of 10,000 is most certainly a reasonable one.
Here's a list of 5000 different Protestant movements. Do they share institutional unity? Nope. Do they recognise any central authority when there is a dispute over the meaning of the Word of God? Nope.
They all CLAIM to have Scripture, sola fides etc in common - but when you look at what that means there's no doctrinal unity because they disagree fundamentally on what that means.

They just set off and start a new group - if they've got the money for it.
http://www.philvaz.com/DENOMS.php

This is why, in the Anglican Communion, we are seeing the inevitable dissolution of its claim to unity.
There is only so far that you can stretch the elastic band before it snaps. The Anglican Communion has reached that point - as successive ABCs have had the honesty to acknowledge.

A French priest once told me: 'I finally understood the Anglican Communion when I realised that it was like the French Socialist Party: it exists merely to continue existing - by whatever means necessary.'
So, who knows what expediency they'll invent next to preserve a fig-leaf of 'unity' and the group photo.

The perfect irony in this, of course is that it will be Her Majesty the Queen or one of her progeny who'll finally sound the death knell of this particular brand of Protestantism: When disestablishment becomes necessary for the survival of the House of Windsor - then disestablishment will, most certainly, happen.

On a lighter note - that strangely funny comedian Emo Philips skewers that attitude perfectly in one of his jokes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2y_kI_-x1Q

Even the Orthodox Church that has nearly all of the marks of a Church is lacking it - which explains why we're still waiting for a pan-Orthodox council that was first called 100 years ago... When John XXIII convened Vatican II in December 1961 it was up and running within 10 months.

There is no real, abiding ecclesiastical unity without the Petrine ministry.
That's just the way Jesus willed it.

3 September 2013 at 09:42  
Blogger ardenjm said...

@William Lewis

Do you SERIOUSLY think that Our Lord was saying in that quote: "My Mother therefore has no importance?"

As I said in an earlier post - Our Lord is rejecting blood ties as a privileged claim on Him - and rightly so: semitic and tribal cultures and our own tendency to "blood is thicker than water" all need to be corrected by the Gospel: Our unity comes from the Holy Spirit - not our nationality, ethnicity, class, etc. That's surely what Pentecost is all about isn't it?

In the light of that scripture you quote then, you can understand PERFECTLY the last words Our Lord addresses to John and Mary from the Cross.

Your apparent refusal to place those two verses together suggests that you prefer the old knee-jerk assumption that somehow to be an authentic Christian/Protestant you have to reject Mary.
This is more than a pity - it also explains why much of mainstream liberal Protestantism has lost the theological realism of the Incarnation - and also explains why Evangelicals have reacted so strongly against that Liberal drift.
In time (and we're seeing it already - in double quick time) Evangelicals are drifting towards to Liberalism, too - which will, no doubt, generate yet another reform of the reform of the reform. And another bunch of protestant "churchlets".

3 September 2013 at 09:50  
Blogger IanCad said...

"All generations shall call me blesséd" says Our Lady in Luke's Gospel."

Never was there such a beautiful verse declaring the delight of the mother of our Lord.

"Blessed" means happy, or to be envied.

That is all.

It does not grant to Mary anything that is not also conferred upon any of the righteous.

Certainly not a hot line to the Ear of God.

Mary is dead and in the grave.

At the return of Our Saviour after the Judgement, when we all shall be rewarded according to our works, then surely this wonderful woman will rise with the dead in Christ.

3 September 2013 at 10:11  
Blogger Pétrus said...

You are Peter, and on this rock I build all my churches.

Yep, that is what the Bible says.

3 September 2013 at 10:18  
Blogger ardenjm said...

@Ian
"Mary is dead and in the grave."

Mark 12 vs26-27 comes to mind:

"And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?

He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong.”

I'll stick with the words of Jesus, then Ian.
And keep on asking angels, saints and His Blessed Mother to pray for me - much as I would ask you.
Since they are all "alive in Christ" they hear my prayers and join with them far more swiftly than you do. Such is the unity of the Body of Christ that is the Church.

3 September 2013 at 10:18  
Blogger William Lewis said...

ardenjm

"Do you SERIOUSLY think that Our Lord was saying in that quote: "My Mother therefore has no importance?"

No. I SERIOUSLY do not think that.

"Your apparent refusal to place those two verses together suggests that you prefer the old knee-jerk assumption that somehow to be an authentic Christian/Protestant you have to reject Mary."

That is a rather extreme interpretation. Not surprising given that the text seriously undermines the elevated status that the RC church has given to Mary in the role of the church. Indeed there is one Catholic commenter here who acknowledges that there can be no more potent prayer then to Mary. This is clearly NOT Biblical.

Also you seem to have conflated a rejection of Mary with a rejection of the unbiblical, RC version of Mary. A common mistake amongst your brethren on these threads.

I could not make sense of your last paragraph.

PS I'm more than happy to quote the other scripture. Here is the selfless love of our Lord as He suffered for our sins:

"When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home." John 19:26-27

3 September 2013 at 10:21  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Cressida @ 9:30/ aredenjm 09:42

The Germans might have something to say about that!

ardenjm: You were the one who cited Barrett. You also mentioned a single Catholic Church.

If you want Barrett, you must accept 242 Catholic denominations, not one.

All I'm saying is abandon Barrett.

Your comments re the Protestant tendency to fragment are pertinent.

All Christians must long for a united church. The redeemed in 'Revelation' 6 singing the same song suggests that this will eventually happen.

3 September 2013 at 10:28  
Blogger LEN said...

The puzzling question (which all including Catholics ) should be asking is how has the 'Catholic Mary 'become raised to be not only equal but superior to God.?.

Puzzling and certainly not an idea obtained from the scriptures,
perhaps a catholic could explain this phenomenon?. But please,please please do not mention the favourite Catholic 'get out clause.' "its a tradition!".

3 September 2013 at 11:03  
Blogger LEN said...

I think all Protestants(myself included) realise that Mary(the Mother of Jesus) was highly favoured by God to be chosen to be the Mother of Jesus Christ.But Mary is was NOT the' Mother of God 'because Jesus pre- existed Mary.
Catholics do the Biblical Mary a grave disservice by elevating Her to be a co- equal with the Trinity,indeed Muslims believe that the 'Christian trinity' is Father Mother and son.

This brings us back to the Reformation (which would not have been necessary if the Roman Church had stuck to the scriptures rather than inventing their own 'doctrines'.)

Muhammad mistakenly thought that Christians worshiped three gods: the Father, the Mother (Mary), and the Son (Jesus), (Sura 5:73-75,116).

One could claim that Roman Catholicism is responsible for the Reformation also for the errors contained within Islam.

3 September 2013 at 11:13  
Blogger Peter D said...

Len
Do you ever read any of the discussions or consider responses made to your repeated assertions about what Catholics actually believe? You really do not understand the faith you turn your back on.

It was said earlier by ardenjm that there is a term used in Catholicism: "invincible ignorance" referring to someone who: "just can't 'get' the teaching that is being taught him."

Like him, I think that when I read your posts. Its like you have a wilful theological learning disability.

Even for you, these are ridiculous assertions:

" ... how has the 'Catholic Mary 'become raised to be not only equal but superior to God.?"

"Catholics do the Biblical Mary a grave disservice by elevating Her to be a co- equal with the Trinity."

You really are clueless!

"Mary is was NOT the' Mother of God 'because Jesus pre- existed Mary."

Albert covered this all before - at great length. It is good to see you understand the Trinity a bit better but you still haven't grasped the nature of the Incarnation.

"One could claim that Roman Catholicism is responsible for the Reformation also for the errors contained within Islam."

One could claim a whole number of things - as you do, repeatedly.

3 September 2013 at 15:37  
Blogger LEN said...

Peter D I think you should take your own advice?.
'Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death, amen."

This prayer is said millions of times every day by Catholics all over the world. It is the response of the prayer known as the "Hail Mary",
(Peter D are you sure you are a Catholic?.)

3 September 2013 at 16:00  
Blogger LEN said...

The catholic 'logic' goes like this Jesus is God, Jesus had a mother ,Mary is the Mother of God.

Wrong.... Mary is the Mother of Jesus`s humanity.The 'vessel' through which His pre -existent Spirit came into this World...Mary cannot be the' Mother of God',because Jesus pre- existed Mary , what is about this simple fact that you cannot understand?.

If Mary was without sin then she wouldn`t have needed a Saviour in fact Mary could become the Saviour of the World without Jesus (if your theology is correct?.

This is a close to pagan Goddess worship as you could possibly get.

3 September 2013 at 16:09  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Explorer: "I actually think you have hit on a great truth. Any Christian in England ought to be Christian first and English second, not the other way round."

Muslims seem to think a similar way. Ummah first.

3 September 2013 at 18:17  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...



Len. The puzzling question (which all including Catholics ) should be asking is how has the 'Catholic Mary 'become raised to be not only equal but superior to God.?.

You are an idiot. You also bear false witness against Catholics. That makes you a bad man, a bad man indeed.

One could claim that Roman Catholicism is responsible for the Reformation also for the errors contained within Islam.

Well, an idiot could, one supposes…

3 September 2013 at 18:43  
Blogger Peter D said...

Len

You are ignorant! Here's the full text:

"Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen."

You just don't get the nature of the Incarnation. It's a prayer asking for the intercession of the Virgin Mary, the mother of Jesus, who was both God and man.

Its prayed in the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches and also within the Catholic tradition of Christianity including Anglicans, and some protestant denominations, such as Lutherans.

3 September 2013 at 20:48  
Blogger IanCad said...

"Invincible Ignorance"

That takes the cake.

Astonishing in its arrogance.

So, anyone who does not embrace the errors of Rome shall be labelled thus.

I shall try that on my wife the next time we have a squabble.

3 September 2013 at 21:06  
Blogger Peter D said...

IanCad

Oh, I don't know. God did give authority to the Church to teach His message.

Originally the term was used to refer to the state of persons (such as pagans and infants) who were ignorant of the Christian message because they have not yet had an opportunity to hear it. Nowadays, it is used to describe those conditioned not to hear it correctly. There's no moral culpability attached to it.

Now, willful blindness or vincible ignorance is more serious.

3 September 2013 at 23:52  
Blogger The Explorer said...

DanJ0 @ 18:17

Spot on!. It's why the murderer of Drummer Rigby could say "Your Government" when he himself was British. He was identifying with the Ummah.

Exactly why Locke initially wanted to exclude Catholics from Toleration. Catholic first, English second. First loyalty elsewhere.

It's partly thanks to Locke (building on Hobbes) that Anglicanism became so tepid in its official form. First loyalty not to God. Keeps everybody quiet while those able to are building up treasure for themselves on Earth. God is, first and foremost, the defender of middle-class property rights.

Marx did have a point about Christianity: or, at least, Locke's version of it.

PS: Critics of Islam constantly point out how much it has cribbed from Judaism/Christianity. Here is a case in point.

4 September 2013 at 09:09  
Blogger LEN said...

Peter D

You say 'I don`t get it'(3 September 2013 20:48)

Well we are in agreement at last!.
I certainly 'don`t get it'.

Why if Jesus is the only Mediator between man and God do Catholics pray to His mother instead of Him.
I certainly don`t get it.
(might just as well pray to dead saints..)

4 September 2013 at 16:01  
Blogger LEN said...

Mary cannot possibly be 'the Mother of God' only the mother of Jesus Christ.
God is a Spirit .Humans cannot give birth to Spirits.
The whole concept is ridiculous.

The 'Mary' of Catholicism is quite plainly not Mary the mother of Jesus Christ.
The Mary of Catholicism has 'supernatural' powers she takes on many forms and many names.Popes have made many assumptions about Mary totally unsupported by Scripture and this has led to the Catholic Mary who is a creation of Catholic 'theologians'.

The Bible is very clear that we come to the Father through Jesus Christ.NEVER is the slightest suggestion that we must come to Christ through Mary,much less that Mary herself is to be petitioned and answers prayer on her own initiative and in her own power

4 September 2013 at 16:26  
Blogger Peter D said...

Len
"The Bible is very clear that we come to the Father through Jesus Christ."

Yes, agreed.

"NEVER is the slightest suggestion that we must come to Christ through Mary,much less that Mary herself is to be petitioned and answers prayer on her own initiative and in her own power"

Catholic's don't believe this! What is the basis of these outrageously mendacious claims against Catholicism?

4 September 2013 at 18:18  
Blogger LEN said...

Peter are you sure (I mean really sure)that you are a Catholic?.

God is omnipresent and omnipotent, etc. I have no trouble believing He hears all prayers from everyone, everywhere, at all times. But the Saints or Mary don't have those same attributes do they?

It is Jesus who intercedes for us Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.(Romans 8 :34)

A question Peter D... when you go to see the Dr do you ask to speak to him or his Mother?

5 September 2013 at 12:00  
Blogger Mr. Mcgranor said...

Papists' were properly dealt with in subjugation as on earth--so in heaven by the utmost temporal meets ecclesiastical Protestantism this world has ever known: The Church of England.

5 September 2013 at 21:36  
Blogger Peter D said...

Len
You regard Christ as a doctor? I see Him as a friend and a brother. For me its perfectly natural to converse with His mother, Mary, who is in Heaven with Him, and ask her to bring my needs to His attention. That's called intercession. Catholics believe in the Communion of Saints - as you know.

Now, back to your lies about Catholic views about Mary. On what do you base this outrage?

"NEVER is the slightest suggestion that we must come to Christ through Mary,much less that Mary herself is to be petitioned and answers prayer on her own initiative and in her own power"

If you really think we believe this, demonstrate where it is part of our doctrine; if not retract the comment.

Are you big enough to do so?

5 September 2013 at 21:52  
Blogger LEN said...

The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth. The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination—activities the Bible strongly condemns

(Peter D this goes far beyond any 'point scoring' but your actions bring you in direct opposition to God)


I will spell out to you the heresies regarding the Catholic 'Mary' as you don`t seem to know them?.)

The Catholic view of Mary is not scriptural; it is based entirely on unbiblical Catholic teachings;
Some of the unbiblical teachings from Catholic tradition relating to Mary include the following:

Mary’s 'immaculate conception'. This doctrine teaches that she was born without original sin and was kept sinless throughout her life.


Mary’s 'perpetual virginity.' This dogma asserts that she had no children after Jesus.


Mary’s 'bodily assumption' or physical ascension into heaven. This teaches that because of her sinlessness, Mary never experienced physical death. Instead she was raised bodily into the presence of Christ the King where she now functions as "Queen of Heaven," dispensing graces to all the faithful.


Mary’s role as co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of all graces. This doctrine holds that the obedience and sufferings of Mary were essential to secure the full redemption bought by Christ.


Mary’s right to veneration and/or worship. This teaching argues that because of her unparalleled role in the economy of salvation, Mary is worthy of special adoration.


This Catholic 'Mary 'is not the mere 'passer on 'of prayers but a co-equal with Christ.


(No retraction need on my part at least...how about you?.)


6 September 2013 at 12:56  
Blogger LEN said...

Peter D

Christ a doctor/healer?. Only One of His attributes.

Mark 1:40-45. Jesus healed ALL that came to Him for healing. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

6 September 2013 at 13:02  
Blogger Peter D said...

Len

So we disagree theologically on Mary - how astonishing!

My request was simple and yet you've not answered it. You've just 'cut and pasted' something from an anti-Catholic site (as usual).

Mary’s role as co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix, isn't actually a dogma. Vatican II didn't want to upset the protestants by declaring it to be so.

Never mind the huffing and puffing, provide proof of the following lie or withdraw it:

"NEVER is the slightest suggestion that we must come to Christ through Mary,much less that Mary herself is to be petitioned and answers prayer on her own initiative and in her own power"

At best, you are a willful miscreant. Instead of admitting your error and ignorance, you conclude:

"This Catholic 'Mary 'is not the mere 'passer on 'of prayers but a co-equal with Christ."

Evidence or withdraw these lies.

6 September 2013 at 20:06  

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