Tuesday, September 17, 2013

Princes of the Church have become middle managers


Father Silas makes his debut upon His Grace's blog (so be nice):

I love the sonorous and elegant formality of the statements issuing from Downing Street announcing the appointment of bishops of Our Own Holy Church. Here’s last week’s:
The Queen has approved the nomination of the Right Reverend Paul Roger Butler, BA, Bishop of Southwell and Nottingham, for election as Bishop of Durham in succession to the Right Reverend Justin Portal Welby, MA, on his elevation as Archbishop of Canterbury on 4 February 2013.
Nomination, election, succession, elevation – the courtly high-flown Norman French a sweet, rolling echo of unperturbable order, timeless continuity and gracious acquiescence. None of which qualities, you may archly observe, are much in evidence in the modern Church. We no longer want our bishops to be princes of the Church; we want them to be its managers. We want them to be active, responsible and relevant. They must be seen to Make a Difference and to be In Touch. Above all, they must Care.

It sounds as though Bishop Butler ticks all the boxes. Published photographs suggest that he is not at all of princely bearing or demeanour. “Bishop Butler, a married father of four” (BBC News) looks reassuringly ordinary and benignly managerial. And sounds it, too. His statement to the Diocese of Durham website sets out his priorities, among which “tackling poverty” is prominent. “Together as communities” he says, “with the church in all its forms playing a key role, we must seek to see what we can do ourselves as well as look to support from elsewhere. Poverty is a scourge that we can only tackle together.”

Quite right, too. The Church should be against poverty and in favour of tackling it collaboratively (I think that is the word). As if to emphasise his determination in this area, the Diocese’s Twitter feed proclaims: “@BishopPaulB says other priorities our communities and working towards eradicating poverty and young people.” Eradicating young people seems a bit self-defeating – where is the next generation of church managers to come from? – but you can’t argue about poverty.

I wonder how Bishop Butler proposes to eradicate it? Apart from the fact that poverty is a relative state (the poor of his diocese may seem quite well off to the poor of, say, Malawi) is it in any real sense eradicable? Has any society ever succeeded in eradicating it to the extent that none of its citizens have had to do without what, in context, were regarded as the basic necessities of life (for want of a more definitive baseline)? But Christianity is nothing if not a religion of hope.

At the outset of his public ministry, the Lord stands in the synagogue to read the scroll of the prophet Isaiah: “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring good news to the poor.” And the nature of that good news? “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the Kingdom of God”, he later tells a “great multitude” of people who had gathered to hear him. It is the coming Kingdom of God that is the good news, not the eradication of poverty, for “you always have the poor with you”.

The move away from proclaiming the actual Gospel - with its promise of eternal life - towards proclaiming a “social” Gospel - predicated on the amelioration of our earthly circumstances - seems to have taken place without our really noticing it. Throughout most of its life the Church of God in this land variously provided healthcare, education, shelter and even sustenance (until these ministries were progressively subsumed by the State). Its modern congregations give generously to Christian Aid, to food banks and via countless other routes to help the poor.

Until now, this has almost never happened because Christians thought they were eradicating poverty, or even “tackling” it in anything other than a local, personal sense. They have done it, and continue to do it, out of compassion; out of a vocational love of their neighbour inseparable from the love of the God who is his father as well as theirs. By this love, they hope to gain, with the poor, the oppressed and the downtrodden, citizenship of that Kingdom of which the Lord speaks.

That is what used to be called the Good News. I hope proclaiming it is also among Bishop Butler’s “priorities”.

Father Silas is an undistinguished (he says) priest and deacon of the Church of England who loves it in spite of everything.

122 Comments:

Blogger Edward Spalton said...

Well, at least it's difficult to have a diminutive form of Paul.

I have noticed that Bishops who use diminutive forms of their Christian names ("Bishop Tom" Bishop Bill" etc) are invariably PC and the more folksy the persona they project, the more authoritarian they really are. However, Bishop Paul would appear to be cut from the same pseudo-caring, semi literate cloth. Eradicating youth will lighten his future work load and probably give him time to save the planet too!

17 September 2013 at 10:15  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Father Silas,

Congratulations on your new "appointment", as a correspondent to this esteemed , if not venerable, blog, and thank you for your first piece.

Injustices and suffering are of course two themes that the Christian must always be concerned about, but the C of E seems to approach such matters via a world view that, nowadays, has more in common with that of The Guardian and The BBC, two organizations not noted for having a high proportion of orthodox Christians in them. As such it alienates many of those in this country who need, above all else, the gospel of salvation. Conversely, not that long ago, it alienated many by doing just the opposite, defending the unjustifiable privileges of the establishment. Will it ever get it right? I would settle for some balance in this regard. The Church must serve all, rich and poor.

But before all that, unless firstly and foremost they preach to all, regardless of their politics, the plain gospel of salvation through first individual, personal repentance and then faith in the risen Christ, all else will fail. Faith first, then good works which flow from that.

As a committed traditional Anglican I have to say that I am distinctly unimpressed with most of our hierarchy. They are increasingly distant from the pew perchers, and seem "organization" men whereas we need evangelists and sources of deep, enduring Christian wisdom.

17 September 2013 at 10:22  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

I wouldn't underestimate Bishop Paul, for he is reputed to be much more than just benignly managerial. He is known to preach the gospel pretty straight, and is held in appropriate awe by those who have done what they should not.

17 September 2013 at 10:24  
Blogger Jay Bee said...

Are you being entirely fair to the Bishop?

He also said Growing the Church is something that has to be the highest priority for the Diocese, growing it in numbers, growing it in depth and growing its discipleship of Jesus Christ.

17 September 2013 at 10:51  
Blogger David Waters said...

So the bishops are middle managers are they?

If any normal organisation had the declining market share, poor sales force, confused objectives, failing finances and obsession with empty buildings that the C of E has, the managers would be sacked.

Sacking the bishops and turning the running of the organisation to the locals? Sounds like a good idea.

17 September 2013 at 10:51  
Blogger IanCad said...

"Sacking the bishops and turning the running of the organisation to the locals? Sounds like a good idea."

That suggestion could equally apply to the Conservative Party.

17 September 2013 at 11:17  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Goodness! What a splendid first piece - welcome to our little community. Here in Barchester the food bank set up by Mr. Slope is doing brisk business. He calls it 'The Rainbow Cafe' in order to 'be inclusive', whatever that means. Every sandwich doled out is wrapped in an appropriate tract, such as 'The Curse of Ham.' Archdeacon Grantly swears by Mr. Slope's 'Lentil Surprise' - but then he swears a lot. As for the bit in your piece about princes of the church becoming middle-managers, that is not the case here. My Lord manages nothing, but I do.

17 September 2013 at 11:28  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

I have this sneaking suspicion that it's the CofE wot dunnit, rather than the esteemed bishops.

Many's the time I've sat and listened to the feedback to the latest episcopal appointments and heard the same ideas - yes, he's a good manager, but he's also a committed Christian, believes in the Gospel, is orthodox etc.

The thing is, if you employ the world's greatest plumber as a pastry chef, you may occasionally catch glimpses of plumbing inspiration, but generally, you will get pastry.

CofE Bishops are managers, sadly before almost anything else, and it takes a remarkably strident individual to break that mould (Archbishop Sentamu strikes me as one, in a very different way, Bishop Chartres as another). They are, more or less, the prophets of a kind of middle-road, middle-class social vision (since that is where the CofE has vested its charitable interests as an institution, increasingly via lobbying over direct action). It may as well be in the job description.

I don't think this is a recent phenomenon either, as Mrs Proudie's (delightful) presence here reminds us.

17 September 2013 at 11:37  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Well, the good reverend (I dislike calling Anglicans "Father", even high church men) reads like a Catholic. Tell you what, I can find a dozen or so of the kind of clergyman whom Silas describes in the CofE right here in the One True Church - Swap you him for them. I think he'd be much happier here, and they'd definitely be much happier there.

17 September 2013 at 11:39  
Blogger LEN said...

Welcome to HG`s esteemed blog MR Silas( I don`t do the 'father thing')

Christians are called to look after 'widows and orphans' and whilst that is important the main focus must be on the preaching of the Gospel because this is the Power and the Wisdom of God and in that respect I am in total agreement.
(Also beware the Catholic' Home Guard' because they are probably waiting to ambush you)

17 September 2013 at 11:39  
Blogger LEN said...

Don`t believe it Corrigan couldn`t wait. LOL.

17 September 2013 at 11:40  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Jay Bee , Lucy Mullen,

I would be delighted to be wrong and to find out that you are right, and that he will preach a straight Gospel. Who knows, perhaps the Welby appointments will take us on the right tack, at last. Let us hope so.

17 September 2013 at 11:58  
Blogger Drastic Plastic said...

Considering that these chumps are state appointees, selected by civil servants after a career of sucking-up to archbishops, and utterly indifferent to anything but their own career (for how else does anyone get a bishopric these days), we may be sure that these are among the worst clergymen in the kingdom.

Plus ca change, it seems.

17 September 2013 at 12:12  
Blogger Little Black Sambo said...

"Are you being entirely fair to the Bishop?
He also said Growing the Church..."

If he said "growing the Church", then you are being entirely fair.

17 September 2013 at 12:20  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Goodness! Mr. Drastic Plastic, I do assure you My Lord did no sucking up to archbishops before his elevation to Barchester. I am the niece of an earl, and I think you'll find that's good enough for anybody. I will send you a tract entitled 'The Lord helps those with the right connections.' It explains a lot.

17 September 2013 at 12:23  
Blogger IanCad said...

"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."
Matthew 23:9

How does this work in the C of E?

Would Rev. Silas be OK?

Pastor Silas has a certain ring to it, as does Brother Silas.

If however, Father it must be then permit me to address you as Silas.

I'm sure HG has some guidance for us nit-pickers.

Good post BTW.

17 September 2013 at 14:13  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

The poverty eradication industry is vast, and any right-minded free-loader would do well to ride the wave whilst it last. Some of the best buffets I've been to (as a representative of the charitable organisation I work for) are the anti-poverty bashes. I sat around the table with some other representatives from 'progressive' 'Christian' organisations talking about how to eradicate poverty from these poor helpless saps we work with, whilst quaffing voulevants.

I suggested we offer free tattoos & cigarettes to those who attended parenting courses. Somebody thought I was onto a good thing in looking for alternative ways to 'incentivise' them to care about their children. I also suggested that since poverty was now defined in relative terms, it is now truer than it ever was, that poverty will always be with us - but that if we brought these people into a relationship with the Son of God then we might be doing them a far greater service than offering them free stuff. That was not considered 'incentivising' enough.

I now go and enjoy the buffets and nod in the right places ... "Yes, Maybe another glossy leaflet or helpline is what these poor people need".

17 September 2013 at 14:19  
Blogger David Hussell said...

IanCad,

"How does this work in the C of E ?"

In my experience, as a lifelong Anglican, firstly in Wales as a child and then in England, the vast majority of ordained priests use the title, Reverend. A few, usually of the Anglo-Catholic persuasion use the Father title. Interestingly (being slightly mischievous today) since women were ordained, which some Anglo-Catholics continue to be unhappy about, I have not come across any who style themselves Mother. Of course it is The Church itself that is traditionally the "she" and Mother, not the priest, but enough of that debate. At the other end of the broad Church spectrum, many belonging to groups like Reform, emphasizing the "priesthood of all believers", ( a Luther idea, If my memory is correct) refuse the Reverend title clinging to plain Mr, frequently leading services dressed in a business suit and tie. This is a relatively new trend, of about 20 years or so approximately I would guess.

So that is how it works, in my experience.

For myself I much prefer the plain Mr or at most Reverend, but I am prepared to show tolerance and employ the Father bit, if that is why they expect. But perhaps in my more robust moments I wonder whether I should be less polite, as I am sure many on this blog would urge. But then few things are worth dying in ditches for, and I'd prefer to keep my ammunition for such matters.

17 September 2013 at 14:56  
Blogger Unheard Melodies said...

I am often called "Father Stephen" by those in my congregation, and invariably by my bishop and colleagues who share a similar Anglo-Catholic background. Indeed this seems to be rather commoner than it once was; and I do know a few women priests who are called "Mother" (although this is more noticeable in America).

But for an Anglican priest to be addressed in this way is an expression of respect and/or affection on the part of the addressor, and should not be a matter of entitlement or even expectation on the part of the priest. I am happy to be called simply by my Christian name by those who find that more comfortable. "Mr [Surname] is perfectly correct, but seems very stiffly formal these days. "Reverend" when directly addressing an Anglican priest (or deacon) is quite incorrect: he or she is to be referred to as "The Reverend (Mr etc if desired) (Christian name)Surname" in the third person only.

Other Christian denominations sometimes do not observe this last propriety: that is a matter for them. And to be fair, how one is addressed - as long as it is courteous - is not really very important.

17 September 2013 at 15:20  
Blogger Peter D said...

Bro Silas
The world of Bishop Francis it seems is very similar to modern Anglican Bishops. The authority of Christ is thrown off, as is His message, and replaced by an earthly pursuit of some vague notion of social justice. This should rightly be seen as an outcome of Christianity - not its purpose.

Len
"Also beware the Catholic' Home Guard' because they are probably waiting to ambush you.

This from a person who rants against all organised religion!

17 September 2013 at 15:21  
Blogger The Judicious Hooker said...

Corrigan: yes, a swap would be illuminating for the CofE personnel as for those of the Latin rite - at the level of bishop and all the levels under him.

The big difference is you have the Petrine Ministry to maintain the show and, as this faltering Anglican admits, the current occupant of the cathedra of Simon Peter, is doing a thoroughly good job. As for our primus inter pares, at least his eye-brows are under control.

And Mr Spalton: what truth you speak...the more folksy and evangelically-beaming the cleric's smile, the more he or she wields godly authority among those considered to owe respect. The high church vicars always seem far more egalitarian but I suppose they exercise their authority liturgically at the Lord's board and that is sufficient for them: they don't lie awake at night worrying about the possibility of ontological change at the moment of priestly ordination.

17 September 2013 at 15:23  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Welcome, Father Silas.

A note to some of you here. Calling someone Father, Rabbi (i.e. teacher), Reverend, Guru or so on is a formal courtesy. It describes their acknowledged position, not your acceptance of their role in your life and beliefs.

17 September 2013 at 15:39  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Peter D,

"This should rightly be seen as an outcome of Christianity-not its purpose".

Quite ! Spot on.

Putting social justice, whatever that is, first, may impress a few Guardian journalists and perhaps the occasional BBC one, but it will not achieve "the cure of souls". Only the gospel can achieve that.

17 September 2013 at 15:44  
Blogger Unheard Melodies said...

Nicely (and courteously) put, Avi Barzel. I think those who call me "Father" do so because that is what they understand me to be in relation to them.

17 September 2013 at 15:45  
Blogger LEN said...

Well... I have had two Fathers one Earthly and one Spiritual and 'Silas' was certainly not one of them, so I think I will continue with MR.
Now the formalities are over perhaps we can continue?.

Peter religion -religio- can be good or can be bad.If we are' bound' to a religious system -bad.
If we are 'bound' re -connected to God-good.

Since almost every post you put on here is singing the praises of the Catholic religious system then yes I am totally against your brand of religion...

Hope this helps to clear up your confusion?.

17 September 2013 at 16:35  
Blogger Peter D said...

Len
Try a little honesty!

You object to all organised religions and, in particular, those with any suggestion of an authoritative divide between priests and lay persons.

17 September 2013 at 17:34  
Blogger Naomi King said...


We are all priests, kings and prophets as the congregation of believers !

17 September 2013 at 17:50  
Blogger Naomi King said...


I try to be patient when discussing the Church of England because people have been brainwashed into accepting premises that are, unfortunately, false myths. Yet these myths are lodged in their brains and are an inextricable part of their intellectual baggage. Like addicts, they just can't let go. They would no doubt experience tremors, vomiting and maybe even heart failure if they were ever forced to own up to the truth.
It is that bad.

17 September 2013 at 17:54  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Mrs Proudie: "Every sandwich doled out is wrapped in an appropriate tract, such as 'The Curse of Ham.'"

Hymm lyrics too, I hope, such as 'Lettuce with a gladsome mind.'

17 September 2013 at 17:56  
Blogger Naomi King said...


Also the deadly silence of the CofE. Where is the Archbishop of Canterbury's or for that matter the priests and congregations demanding that the British Government condemn the Muslims for the persecution and slaughter of the innocent and relatively innocent Christians in Muslim countries. NOTHING is forthcoming because they have more reverence for Islam and their false god the moon god then they have for their own God or Christianity and so are basically cowards not prepared to stand up for God or their Messiah Jesus. "He is not mocked."

I have also found that those who say they believe are by and large what I call light weight Christians no real substance to them. They are of the church of Laodiceans, they are neither hot or cold. They sing in the choir and arrange fetes to collect money for the poor suffering third world. They enjoy the social aspect of belonging to a church as long as nothing is demanded of them. They have no real knowledge of their Bible nor do they desire to know, therefore they are unable to defend All Mighty God and if they should attempt it, which is rare, with their defence of their Creator, inevitably the atheist run circles around them. Hosea said "my people perish through lack of knowledge" and that is of course the knowledge of God.

17 September 2013 at 18:08  
Blogger IanCad said...

David Hussell,

Thanks for the explanation.

As a child I attended services at the C of E.

It was generally "Reverend", occassionaly "Vicar", and when a tiresome sermon was presented then he was referred to as a "Silly Fool" ; or, if the message was particularly dopey, then it was "Damn Fool"

17 September 2013 at 18:35  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Hello Father.

As far as "tackling poverty" goes, it is now getting on for a half-century since the Catholic bishops of Latin America made their "preferential option for the poor" and, in response, the poor made their preferential option for the Evangelical and Pentecostal churches. Be careful what you pray for, Bishop Paul.

17 September 2013 at 18:47  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

17 September 2013 at 18:47  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

17 September 2013 at 18:47  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

...and he opposes female ordination and won't marry gays. Well probably not, otherwise he would have got the usual “regret you have not been shortlisted” snub. But we can be dream, what !

By the way, rotten news chaps.

The IT rats that doeth run around in the basement of ones work and who squeak alarmingly as they go about their mischief have blocked Cranmer from the Inspector’s view. Until such time he can find justification to descend into the bowels and wreak bloody revenge on them, a fellow is going to have to limit his time in your most excellent presence. Host, esteemed contributors, communicants and followers, all.

Until happier times, the Inspector remains your most miserable servant…



17 September 2013 at 18:54  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Ian Cad,

Your account sounds about right.

I omitted the obvious, the "Vicar" word, which is used ubiquitously and often incorrectly, but vaguely means the priest who is in charge of the parish, or the "incumbent". So those who are actually Rector, and the ones who are indeed Vicars are lumped together, and in practical terms it matter not.

Inspector,

We do indeed sympathize. IT "rats" are a species apart, beyond reason, as you realize.
Chin up !

17 September 2013 at 19:20  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Two bypass options I can think of, Inspector: One, remote access and control your home computer and surf from there as I often do or two, splurge on a data plan for your phone and use that instead of your office WiFi. The former is tricky, unless you have a techie friend who can set it up so that you can log in and out quickly with a few clicks (in effect creating an app), and the latter will cost you a monthly fee on top of your phone charges. Whatever you must do, do Inspector, for we cannot have an un-inspected forum descending into entropy and chaos. Think of the children, too.

17 September 2013 at 19:24  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

I am sure that Durham Cathedral will be packed with people praying for him and wishing him well when he begins his onerous and self-sacrificial vocation in this role. I pray to the Almighty that he may be granted wisdom, courage, endurance,sensitivity and though it may seem like a contradiction also skin like elephant hide to endure the rancour, the petty backbiting, and absurd envies that some so-called Christians seem to slip into so perilously easy.

Any "Amens" out there or do you want to continue to throw bits of ill-considered gravel at someone you probably barely know anything at all about, let alone actually slightly know, seemingly for sport, before he has even begun his work?

17 September 2013 at 20:43  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

And what on earth is wrong with wanting to tackle poverty in the North. An old Chinese proverb says "a man with toothache cannot love his wife". Similarly it has often been observed that people are not at their most receptive to the gospel if they are starving. And I can assure people here that for some- the elderly, mothers returning to work, children in homes where the main breadwinner has lost his or her job, for non-controversial examples, food and heating can be a major source of worry and distress in the present climate.

17 September 2013 at 20:49  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear, dear DanJ0, you are a treasure! 'Lettuce with a gladsome mind' is one of my favourites and is oft sung by our choir here in the cathedral. Amongst other food bank favourites are the 'Piece of Cod that Passeth All Understanding,' and 'Blessed are the Peas(pudding)makers', all eagerly devoured by Barchester's waifs and strays. Do toddle down to Barsetshire for the Feast of St. Heston of Blumenthal and sample some of Mr. Slope's wares - some help with the tracts would also be much appreciated.

17 September 2013 at 21:07  
Blogger LEN said...



"try a little honesty" 'Peter hissed (in his usual high handed religious manner)

Well... that is exactly my contention with your' Catholic' religion.

Anyway.. Peter.. enough of your distractions having decided(almost) what to call 'Silas' I think we should put our best foot forward(I assume you have one?) and to put our full weight behind 'Silas'as he seems a decent sort of chap and the Gospel is the thing that could possibly unite warring Christian factions(If you Catholic chappies could only get it right you have been practicing long enough?.)

17 September 2013 at 21:33  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Lucy Mullen at 20:49

And what on earth is wrong with wanting to tackle poverty in the North.

Lucy, on the off chance that this may be intended as a retort to my comment about the "preferential oiption for the poor", there is more than one way of "tackling poverty". What poor people want, at least in Latin America and presumably around the world, is to leave off being poor. All too often, what the Catholic Church offered them -- or seemed to be offering them, at parish level, whatever the bishops' original intentions may have been -- was something more along the lines of "Workers of the world, unite."

17 September 2013 at 21:34  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

{AHEM}, that should be ‘dreaming’ in one’s last post above...

Greetings David Hussell and Avi and one thanks you for the advice, that last fellow. The Inspector would be even more grateful if he knew what you were on about. You see, this man still points with excited glee to his desk calculator on receiving office visitors...

There is one fellow who would know, and that is King Rat himself, whose subjects are responsible for this sad state of affairs, so might pass on that opportunity.

And it is a problem. You see, although he doesn’t post during a working day, this man follows the thread, and formulates his oft ignored input, to be sent at the evening of a day. So you have considered thought there, not knee jerk reaction. Also, will now have to consider the full proceedings in his spare time, and we damn well can’t be having that, what !


17 September 2013 at 22:01  
Blogger David B said...

Welcome Father Silas.

Your first piece seems nicely written, though, as one of the resident liberal atheists on this conservative blog, I have nothing much to say about this particular piece.

Sometimes, outside the realm of metaphysics, I find myself in agreement with some of the principles and other supernaturalist commenters here, so I hope I shall find you talking such sense that I will have little to argue with - outside metaphysics, where there is little doubt that we shall have our differences of opinion.

David

17 September 2013 at 22:07  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

@ Uncle Brian
No,your comment was just an opinion, not barbed. It was more all the instant stuff about PC, guardian reader, poverty bandwagon, and the person who wrote "these chumps are state employees" (incidentally they are not) and such ad hominem stuff that felt beyond the pale.
I've only once met the man, and that briefly, but surely it is decent to hold fire rather than read loads of stuff into a few sentences, project whatever hobbyhorse you hold on to him, and set off a rally of shots before he is even in post!!

17 September 2013 at 22:10  
Blogger Peter Melia said...

What does the new bishop think of Matthew 28.11, when he "tackles poverty"?

17 September 2013 at 22:13  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Sorry, Silas - Len is a little slow on the uptake. Lord knows that I've explained this to him often enough, however, once more from the heart: The Catholic Church is not a "Christian faction"; it is Christianity. All the others are denominations, or, as you call them, factions. If it helps, just try to remember that the Catholic Church on one side, and all the rest on the other is not a meeting of equals. We're number one, you're not. Are we clear now, Len?

17 September 2013 at 22:19  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Welcome Silas, I trust you won't Slope off and leave Cranmer in the lurch.
David Hussell; Sharp and to the point but; perhaps the Welby appointments will take us on the right tack at last. Let us hope so. If his stance on the vote on SSM and his management of the Bishops Spiritual goes by, there is little hope.
Yes, the poor. Bless them. If you give a poor person food today, they are hungry tomorrow. The food that our Lord refers to is that which will satisfy them into eternity.
Rice Christians will leave you when the bowl is empty. The spiritually satisfied will be with you always.

17 September 2013 at 22:26  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Inspector,
My heart goes out to you. Fancy them stopping you from pursuing your leisure activities in your work time and on company equipment.
My IT have stopped me from accessing anything to do with sex, including Essex, Gambling in order to pay my tithe and even accessing Rigby and Peller for some naughty under garments. It really is most unfair. I wish I was a techy to give you some advice except having your own USB Dongle to give you an alternative access to the NET. Otherwise see you in the evenings.

17 September 2013 at 22:32  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Mrs Proudie;
You really are on form today. Please keep up the good work to lighten up an otherwise heavy tomb of spiritual dilectitude. (A new word for intellectual tosh).
Bless you.

17 September 2013 at 22:36  
Blogger Peter D said...

Corringan, good Sir, that's so triumphalist! True but triumphalist none the less. These are ecumenical times.

17 September 2013 at 22:41  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

The Inspector would be even more grateful if he knew what you were on about. You see, this man still points with excited glee to his desk calculator on receiving office visitors...

And thus, without much thought or ado, a pregnant opportunity opens up for the Inspector whereupon he unexpectedly finds himself with a legitimate, indeed a gold-standard cause to approach one or more of his younger co-workers of the fairer sex, to declare his confusion and helplessness in this mad digital age and ask for a pedagogical discourse on computing developments since that Enigma issue at Bletchley Park. Over dinner and wine, perhaps.

17 September 2013 at 22:51  
Blogger LEN said...

Corrigan.... Christ is number 1.

We are not!.

17 September 2013 at 23:04  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mrs Proudie 12.23, which book? Clarence, Essex, Exeter or Percy?

17 September 2013 at 23:37  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Avi @ 22:51. You’re probably right that man, though one has little faith in the young opposite sex knowing much more than the topside of a disposable nappy.

Integrity. It is most unfair being deprived of one’s daily manna, to wit, Cranmer. For those who think this man puts his feet up on a day, consider this, the workforce has halved in the last few years, but we are still belting out whatever. And for not a penny more, one might add...


17 September 2013 at 23:52  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Avi

a legitimate, indeed a gold-standard cause to approach one or more of his younger co-workers of the fairer sex,

Remember, Avi, that the Canadian Human Rights Commission are reading this over your shoulder. It would be safer to write something like, "of the same sex, of the opposite sex, of any other sex, of no sex at all, or none of the above." And not only homophobia but ageism as well! I hope you're confident you have a good lawyer.

18 September 2013 at 00:26  
Blogger Gregory Morris said...

Mrs Proudie

...And let our ordered lives confess
The beauty of thy peas.

Greg

18 September 2013 at 00:27  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Oh, perish that thought, Uncle Brian, not the dreaded CHRC, our infamous Star Chamber of the North, where a man (it's always men who run afoul of its vague principles) cannot bring a lawyer or question his accuser and will invariably be punished with a hefty fine which our Provincial courts dutifully enforce! It has been behaving lately, though, as the current Government has mulled disbanding this farce and now with the proverbial sword of Damocles over its fluffy head, the dull-witted ciphers at the CHRC confine themselves to more clear-cut cases of civil rights violations at the workplace and in the rental market. That would end, of course, if the Liberals with that vacuous nitwit, Justin Trudeau at the helm, manage to form our next government. God forbid. Operating happily as I am on a British blog site and under my real, but officially unregistered Hebrew name, I feel free to frolic to my heart's content. Well, with His Grace's leave of course, but his leash is long and fairly loose.

18 September 2013 at 01:00  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Avi

Canadians are too harmless and inoffensive to require a leash.

Carl ;)

18 September 2013 at 01:14  
Blogger IanCad said...

I'm sorry for your plight Inspector; thus we can expect a new found boost to your productivity.

That being said, I sincerely hope that you work in the private sector.

There is nothing more dangerous to society than a government worker with time on his hands.

New rules and regulations and all that.

18 September 2013 at 01:29  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Well, Carl, with...what is it now, half of your population at the last count?...in orange jumpsuits stewing in state and federal pens or on a queue for the lethal injection treat, we are living proof of the power of deterrence through sheer horror.

18 September 2013 at 01:36  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear dear Bluedog, I'm not sure which volume of 'The Blood Royal' you will find me in, but my connections include the Earl of Mountwarlock, Lord Mountararat and the Empress of Blandings... do come to tea at The Palace, we can talk about pedigrees, handfast marriages and bastards...

18 September 2013 at 09:36  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear dear Mr Integrity (are you one of the Borsetshire Integritys?) - thank you for your kind words, but allow me to correct you: the Tomb of Spiritual Dilectitude is located on the South Side of the Cloister at Barchester, sandwiched between the statue of the Blessed Jess Yates and the Slab of Cyril Smith. Few visitors go there...at least not on their own.

18 September 2013 at 09:41  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear dear Gregory, how lovely! I shall embroider that text on a banner and string it above our food bank counter. You must come with me on my next mission of mercy: I'm going to the Barchester Home for Fallen Women to bandage a few knees and I've been told to bring an escort...

18 September 2013 at 09:45  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Inspector old chap,
I have another wheeze for your problem. I don't know if it will work but if you can load 'logmein' on your work PC (that's 'Personal Computer', not 'Politically Correct') and on you home machine, using a log in and password you can access your home machine and control it to access the net or whatever. You then see what your home screen sees.
Don't try and use logmein123. That's for tech support.
Forgive me if I'm trying to teach my granny to suck eggs.

18 September 2013 at 11:26  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Inspector,

With helpful IT gurus kindly rushing to keep you on-line, even whilst earning an honest guinea, you've succeeded in mustering your very own "Inspector General Communications Support Group". I applaud them all, to a man ! In fact it represents a splendid example of inter-faith collaboration, all very "cultural Anglican", if I may so point out ?

Bravo the helpful IT wizards !

18 September 2013 at 12:11  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Len, who's this "we" who are not number one? I thought you'd die the martyrs death before lying down with the scarlet whore of Rome? Surely you don't admit any commonality with us demonic papists?

18 September 2013 at 12:21  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mrs Proudie @ 09.36, you do sound terribly grand. As a mongrel I don't even get a mention at Crufts, and the Catholics tell me that I've failed every Obedience Trial. So if I turned up at the Palace you would probably shoo me away.

18 September 2013 at 12:22  
Blogger LEN said...

Corrigan,
I am a follower of Christ.
IF you are the same then perhaps?......
But I am not a follower of Romish doctrines and never will be ,
See the problem?.
It is Christ that unites but Rome that divides.

18 September 2013 at 12:32  
Blogger Nick said...

"The IT rats that doeth run around in the basement of ones work and who squeak alarmingly as they go about their mischief have blocked Cranmer from the Inspector’s view"

Inspector

That sounds like suppresion of free speech. I wonder if they would dare to block PN?

I could suggest you use one of these new portable devices that allow sundry communication via the ether, reardless of where you are. Devilish devices if you ask me : must use some kind telepathic medium that allows you to place your comments on the blog without connecting to a telegraph wire or telegram boy.

Failing that, a large bowl of warfarin in the basement will suffice

18 September 2013 at 15:10  
Blogger Corrigan said...

I sympathize, Avi. I know what it is to be pilloried by Zealots when you don't see things their way.

18 September 2013 at 15:41  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Bluedog,

Fear not for banishment for being low born, mongrel and divers stuff. I do wager that Mrs Proudie hath a sure certain need for us wastrels, canine and mortal alike, under the angels, as the lack of the lowly frustrates her great elevation ? The high born leaderesses require a swarm of ne'er do wells for to lead, else they are but clanging clappers, empty sonorous things, as t'were !

What say ye, pray speak, Honourable Mrs Prodie ?

18 September 2013 at 16:07  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Goodness! I promise you Mr. Hussell I am no 'clanging slapper'...oh dear, shoud have gone to specsavers

18 September 2013 at 17:05  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear dear Bluedog, I never shoo anyone away from the palace...I am happy to clasp all sinners to my bosom, and even non-sinners too...

and Mr. Hussell, I now see that last line of mine has a spelling mistake - it should read 'should' of course.

18 September 2013 at 17:08  
Blogger LEN said...

Well this thread seems to have gone to the dogs or should that be rats.

The Gospel the only means of salvation for Humanity seems to have taken a backseat to these more pressing matters?.
Perhaps a sign of the times if those within the church cannot be bothered why should anyone else?.

18 September 2013 at 17:21  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

I say chaps, one is quite overwhelmed by the way you’ve come to a fellow’s assistance in his hour...

Thanks for the techno. One’s continued daytime companionship of Cranmer looks assured, once the IT wallah comes back from his hols, as one has a reasonable suggestion to put to him.

You really are a first rate lot, you know...

18 September 2013 at 19:08  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Len,

Lighten up, there's a good chap.

Many of us agree with you, I certainly do, but God allows us to have some gentle fun occasionally. It's part of being human. It's how He made us, most of us anyway.

18 September 2013 at 19:09  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Goodness! I seem to have upset everyone...I shall desist immediately and take myself off to Puddington, where Mrs. Quiverful is having a Great British Bake In...sorry for lowering the tone dear chaps...

18 September 2013 at 20:36  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

My mission was only to bring lightheartedness unto the gentiles...

18 September 2013 at 20:46  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mrs Proudie @ 20.46 says, 'My mission was only to bring lightheartedness unto the gentiles...'

And living as you do, far from the madding crowd, you have succeeded splendidly.

18 September 2013 at 20:58  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

18 September 2013 at 21:29  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

18 September 2013 at 21:30  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Mrs Proudie,
I had really meant to suggest that the tome of spiritual dilectitude might be found in the tomb, was on the South Side of the Cloister at Barchester? My only wish is that there had been two men in it. DC and NC with DM arched over the top.
Did you hear about the boy who saw a tombstone and said, ‘there must be two men buried here for it says’.

Here lies a good man and a politician.

18 September 2013 at 21:32  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

I know what it is to be pilloried by Zealots when you don't see things their way.

Yeh. So did Lord Mountbatten. Except the zealots didn't pillory him so much as blow him up.

carl

19 September 2013 at 00:24  
Blogger Peter D said...

Carl

Yep, the reformation that spawned Cromwell has a lot to answer for.
The spirit of rebellion against King and Pope resulted in chaos and murder and has carried on down the generations.

Cromwell - the man who believed he was ushering in the New Jerusalem and, like an Old Testament Judge, set about eliminating the 'Canaanites' from the Promised Land.

The Puritan Roundheads emulated the warriors of Israel in their campaigns against the Irish and Scots, forgetting the 'Suffering Christ'. The King, an unworthy leader, like Phineas, deserved to die at the hands of the 'elect', who were acting on direct orders from God. Then the 'Glorious Revolution', deposing another legitimate King.

The French and Russian revolutions were inevitable - so too the IRA.

19 September 2013 at 01:32  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Peter D

If only the Pope was a legitimate authority against whom one could rebel. Then you might have the makings of an argument.

If only ...

carl

19 September 2013 at 04:53  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Oh dear, Carl. Am I now a terrorist?

19 September 2013 at 07:49  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

"The spirit of rebellion against Pope and King resulted in chaos and murder and has carried on down the generations".

Makes me wonder if everyone on here is actually living in the 20th Century, as this type of thinking feels more like one of Shakespeare's history plays or "King Lear" rather than how people think now.

The "Great chain of Being" that the Elizabethans believed in is a thing of the past. Why would anyone want to roll the clock back to pre-Cromwell, and go back to the divine right of Kings, and being excommunicated and damned into all eternity if you disagreed with the Pope. Why do you want ultra-authoritarianism? I want quite a libertarian country, for people to go about their everyday lives quietly insofar as possible without other people lecturing adults on what they must do and believe and even think and enforcing it in a totalitarian way, so long as they don't harm others.

Sure, under such a system people can try and convince you one way or another, but it is up to your own free will, which is, I think, what a free society is about!! I begin to wonder how many Roman Catholics actually want that...

19 September 2013 at 10:02  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

@ Carl.
There are widespread suggestions on the internet that the blowing up of Mountbatten was for reasons of revenge on quite another matter. He was far from, let us say, a faithful monogamist.

If you have a murderous organisation in action around , as the IRA was, sometimes other happenings accrete to the list of their atrocities, one way or another.

19 September 2013 at 10:09  
Blogger LEN said...

Must we keep going round in endless circles forever?.

Until the True authority and Foundation of 'the Church' is made perfectly clear (which is Christ) then we will keep repeating the same exercise. I suppose the good point is the Truth as revealed by the Word of God can be reiterated.

This Truth about' the Foundation Stone' which is Christ has been stated endlessly but Catholics deny the Truth as revealed by the Word of God BUT not only that they try to convert those from the Truth to their error.(And they wonder why I oppose their 'religious system' which is a creation of man, by man, for man as all other religions are!.)

Pure Christianity is a creation of God and created in such a way that man could not possibly have 'invented' it.

There are two' forces 'which oppose God and one is [religion]that is a religious system which has created 'a salvation system' ' "A second route that humanity has followed in seeking to achieve independence from God is at first surprising. It is religion. In various different forms men have established religious rules and systems of worship so complete and all-sufficient that there is no further need of God. All they have to do is to keep their rules." (Rules Of Engagement Derek Prince)


(The' First route' is 'Secular Humanism' where man uses 'logic' and reason to replace God.)


19 September 2013 at 11:06  
Blogger Corrigan said...

And who is to say what this "pure" Christianity is, Len? Oh, that's right - we are!

19 September 2013 at 12:07  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Lucy Mullen:

No.

19 September 2013 at 12:21  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

@ AIB
What are you saying "no" to? A degree of jogging along amicably together, I in my way and you in yours? Tolerance of either living in a Kingdom or a Republic and just trying to help make whichever you find yourself in work as well as possible? A tendency to the milder reaches of libertarianism? Or thinking that not all Christians need to come under the rule of the Pope?

Pretty mild opinions so not sure where the "no" comes from?

19 September 2013 at 12:45  
Blogger Peter D said...

Carl
"If only the Pope was a legitimate authority against whom one could rebel. Then you might have the makings of an argument."

The rebellion was against Monarchs with a Divine Right to rule in the interests of their people. The role of the Pope was to ensure Kings ruled according to God's revealed will. For example, no Christian King would 'marry' in secret whilst already married, then 'divorce' his wife.

Lucy
"Why would anyone want to roll the clock back to pre-Cromwell, and go back to the divine right of Kings, and being excommunicated and damned into all eternity if you disagreed with the Pope."

Why? Because, theologically and practically, I believe it a far better system than our liberal-democratic-atheist system. Not perfect, agreed. Open to abuse, agreed. However, look at the carnage across Europe and the world since the system was dismantled.

19 September 2013 at 18:46  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

@ Peter D
I find it near inconceivable that you seriously want to take us back to the reign of- well Stuart Kings wouldn't actually do much for you- so I am assuming Philip and Mary!!

Still I suppose you could get satisfaction from burning a few of us at the stake for naughty opinions.

Seriously I know that there are pre-modernists, modernists and postmodernists, but i don't think that I've met many wanting to go that far back. I guess you are waiting for the conversion of England back to the "old" religion. But if so then why don't you let us alone in running our own affairs as our orders are to you invalid and our very thoughts heretical, and our lack of interest in key things like Apostolic "magic touch" succession, transubstantiation, papal infallibility, Marian worship, incense, perpetual virginity of Mary, and her mother, renders us virtually blasphemous in your eyes.

19 September 2013 at 19:10  
Blogger Peter D said...

You're entitled to your (heretical) views, Lucy.

You wouldn't be burned at the stake, then or now, for holding "naughty" opinions" - only if you fermented rebellion. As a woman, the Puritan Witchfinder General, Matthew Hopkins, would have been more of a threat to you.

The Church has a duty to evangelise and correct errors, don't you think?

19 September 2013 at 19:53  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

@ Peter
Depends on what you mean by "correct errors" doesn't it?

For those of us who think that everything comes from love, and it is all about being loving, and how best to nurture love between human beings and towards God those words tend to sound distinctly chilly and even dangerous.

I think people should choose, of their own will, not under correction or coercion. In the days of Queen Mary you could be put to death fro not believing in the Real Presence or in Confession as an obligatory sacrament. I see nothing loving there, but just rules, and a focus on one set of rules, her interpretation of her church's rules.

G. Edward Griffin of Freedom Force International wrote a piece in which he said people should be like dogs, not cats, for if you throw a pebble towards a cat it looks at the pebble, if you throw it towards the dog it looks at you. The function of the church is to help people love each other and God, not to fuss about the means being done precisely this way or precisely that way, and beat up anyone who differs.

Incidentally surely one "foments" rebellion, rather than fermenting it? Of course fermenting sounds more fun to those who like New Wine.

19 September 2013 at 21:11  
Blogger Mr. Mcgranor said...

The postmodern polity, is that, the typical congregant wants authoritarian relations with the pastor. The majority want communitarianism practiced as well. Which suggests that the individual personality should yield to the group. This all suggests that the faithful are purged from society(the vast majority), and that they are somewhere else, but not in church.

19 September 2013 at 21:38  
Blogger Peter D said...

Lucy
Well of course people should be permitted to deny the validity of the Church without being in fear. If they want to exclude themselves that's their business, subject to not harming others or the commonwealth.

However, in my opinion, society should be run on Christian principles - and this means the Church having a legitimate, separate, authority over leaders. This isn't the Middle Ages but, agreed, I'm not a supporter of democracy or libertarianism. I don't claim to be - look at the mess that has resulted from them. And I don't think you'll find any support for these systems in Scripture.

(Yes, foment is quite correct, thank you. Must have been thinking of a home brew!)

19 September 2013 at 22:33  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

@ Peter
Support from Scripture? How about the parable of the wheat and tares which suggests that it has to be that both grow up together until the day of harvest.

The US style of libertarianism- diluted a bit and devoid of the US cultural gun focus- actually makes quite a lot of sense, I think.

Because harm to others is disallowed, so is abortion and child porn, things which are sometimes claimed to be allowable.

But people could be far more empowered in their choice of health care, being free to experiment with different theories, not railroaded as at present, freer to decide their own priorities, to decide what their children are or are not taught, and take more self-responsibility generally.

It would also slash the number of laws, the number of forms, and the number of fought wars. If we were in danger of economic collapse, banks would be allowed to fail and the rot would be initially more painfully, but also more effectively cut out of the system, allowing it to recover faster, rather than have these ghastly prolonged recessions. And a freer market would excise loads of vile monopolies which make life harder for us.

As for the mess, I am afraid that is down to original sin, and some of it down not just to not being Christian but to being actively against.

I was shocked to read that the G20 ended suddenly with virtually nothing resolved because Obama flew into a rant at Putin, about 2 or 3 things, but the heat of it about Pussy Riot and Putin's attitude to gays, and told him that Cameron and Merkel felt the same. Helpful for the world isn't it? What plonkers are in charge!! And the evidence for Obama having been a member of an iffy club of a bathhouse nature is very very strong, which is why there is SO much focus on such fringe issues. I need to check that G20 story out, as need more evidence.


I

20 September 2013 at 01:59  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

Lucy just a comment in reference to your comment about Shakespeare. Shakespeare was the consummate playwright and psychologist.The motivations, prejudices and range of emotion expressed in his works are timless .That is why he is considered to be an English genius, even by the French!

20 September 2013 at 05:36  
Blogger Peter D said...

Lucy
The wheat and the tares, I believe, refers to the Christian community and not society at large. Jesus was a Jew and would be using imagery from His culture - the Jewish nation, selected and set apart by God.

We can transpose the imagery across to Church and, if we do, we appear to be in a situation where the tares outside the Church are over running the Church itself. As I say, one should be free not to believe but some weed control is necessary from time to time and the Church itself should not be sowing weeds.

I'm all in favour of the libertarianism you describe if it takes place within Christian parameters.

20 September 2013 at 14:13  
Blogger Peter D said...

"Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought."
(John Paul II)

20 September 2013 at 14:40  
Blogger LEN said...

The Latin word from which the English word "religion" is derived means "to bind up." Jesus did not come to bind us up in rules and regulations or rituals of devotion, but to set us free to be man as God intended.
Your freedom 'Peter' is an illusion you are bound to the Catholic Church not free at all!.

20 September 2013 at 15:04  
Blogger Peter D said...

Len
Oh dear what a dark mind you have ....

Some say the Latin 'religio', was originally used to mean "reverence for God or the gods; careful pondering of divine things, piety".

In terms of binding, I have no issue with one interpretation "obligation, the bond between man and God or the gods."

Here's a hymn praising and celebrating the union of Christians with Christ through His Body - the Church.

Bind us together
Lord, Bind us together
With cords that cannot be broken.
Bind us together, Lord,
Bind us together,
Bind us together with love.

There is only one God,
There is only one King;
There is only one Body,
That is why we sing:

Made for the glory of God,
Purchased by His precious Son;
Born with the right to be clean,
For Jesus the victory has won.

We are the family of God,
We are the promise divine;
We are God’s chosen desire,
We are the glorious new wine.


I'm quite happy being bound to Christ in Love and, through Him, to others.

20 September 2013 at 16:58  
Blogger LEN said...

As long as they accept Catholic doctrines Peter?.
Your Church seem to exclude non Catholics ...bit hard to be bound to them?

20 September 2013 at 21:05  
Blogger LEN said...

Paul Speratus was a Roman Catholic priest imprisoned for openly preaching justification by faith alone. He was given the death sentence by King Ludwig but he was later released into permanent exile. Salvation unto Us has Come was written by Speratus in 1523.

1. Salvation unto us has come
By God's free grace and favor;
Good works cannot avert our doom,
They help and save us never.
Faith looks to Jesus Christ alone,
Who did for all the world atone;
He is our one Redeemer.

2. What God did in His Law demand
And none to Him could render
Caused wrath and woe on every hand
For man, the vile offender.
Our flesh has not those pure desires
The spirit of the Law requires,
And lost is our condition.

3. It was a false, misleading dream
That God His Law had given
That sinners should themselves redeem
And by their works gain heaven.
The Law is but a mirror bright
To bring the inbred sin to light
That lurks within our nature.

4. From sin our flesh could not abstain,
Sin held its sway unceasing;
The task was useless and in vain,
Our gilt was e'er increasing.
None can remove sin's poisoned dart
Or purify our guileful heart,-
So deep is our corruption.

5. Yet as the Law must be fulfilled
Or we must die despairing,
Christ came and hath God's anger stilled,
Our human nature sharing.
He hath for us the Law obeyed
And thus the Father's vengeance stayed
Which over us impended.

6. Since Christ hath full atonement made
And brought to us salvation,
Each Christian therefore may be glad
And build on this foundation.
Thy grace alone, dear Lord, I plead,
Thy death is now my life indeed,
For Thou hast paid my ransom.

20 September 2013 at 21:20  
Blogger LEN said...

I was going to put in 'a link YG' but the words are quite a revelation to me coming from a former Catholic who saw' the Light'.I hope others can see from this Gods plan for salvation.

20 September 2013 at 21:23  
Blogger Peter D said...

An interesting chap this Paul Speratus. Ordained in 1506, he was a fervent Catholic priest. For all his fine words, in 1521 he broke his vows and married. Guess the flesh just got the better of him and his commitment to God. The birth of protestantism and sex appear to be closely linked.

20 September 2013 at 22:34  
Blogger LEN said...

I think Paul Speratus' got the better of Catholicism' Peter(hence your sour grapes)
Also 1Ti 4:3: Those who forbid people, such as priests, to marry are propagating' a doctrine of devils'. It is that simple. Paul himself spoke about the advantages of a minister staying single (1Co 7), but he didn't demand it. To demand that a minister remain single is a doctrine straight from hell. This demonic doctrine is still followed by some denominations today.

If you really want to speak about sex problems and priests( I would be really surprised if you wanted to attempt to take the 'high ground on this issue) although it is especially relevant to the Catholic church!.

21 September 2013 at 09:31  
Blogger LEN said...

Peter... I think your position (and others of like religious views) must be crystal clear to anyone reading this blog.You are quite plainly NOT interested in Biblical Truth as revealed by the Word of God.Your main object is defending Catholicism and you do this by attacking the Word of God and the Truth of God`s Word.

I find your attitude incomprehensible... I hope others are more of the mind of Paul Speratus more open to the Truth of God`s Word.
I am beginning to think you really are a 'lost cause' but only God will know if that is your true position?.

21 September 2013 at 09:45  
Blogger Peter D said...

Len, another 'cut and paste' job? This time from Andrew Wommack.

This particular chap claims he can and has miraculously healed and raised people from the dead!

He's also a strong supporter of Uganda's Anti-Homosexuality Bill which prescribes the death penalty and life imprisonment for same-sex relations in Uganda and includes provisions for Ugandans who engage in same-sex relations outside of Uganda to be extradited 'home' for punishment.

Well, who are you to judge?

21 September 2013 at 12:15  
Blogger LEN said...

Peter I will pray for you.I mean this sincerely.

21 September 2013 at 13:45  
Blogger Peter D said...

It might be more fruitful if you prayed for yourself Len. I suggested one particular prayed recently. Try it.

21 September 2013 at 15:22  
Blogger LEN said...

We all need prayer' Peter' you seem to be adverse for people praying for you, perhaps you are concerned about meeting the author of the Bible?.

If you are talking about your 'binding hymn' I think we have already done that one?.

Regarding the 'doctrines of demons' it was actually the Apostle Paul who made the following statement (in case you were unaware?)

"4 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer."(I Timothy 4)

21 September 2013 at 19:01  
Blogger Peter D said...

Len
"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

The prayer I commended to you is to Michael the Archangel - to protect against the wiles of Satan. Go say it.

And your ignorance astonishes me. Really, it is willful. We've 'done' this one before. The references to marriage and food in this passage is a warning against Gnosticism. Don't let truth get in the way.

21 September 2013 at 19:55  
Blogger Peter D said...

Len
October 13, 1884, Pope Leo XIII's vision.

The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord:
"I can destroy your Church."

The gentle voice of Our Lord:
"You can? Then go ahead and do so."

Satan:
"To do so, I need more time and more power."

Our Lord:
"How much time? How much power?"

Satan:
"75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over to my service."

Our Lord:
"You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will."

Can you guess the Church at the top of the hit list of all the so called 'Deliverance Ministries' who claim power over Satan?

It's the one given this promise:
"That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it .... And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world."

21 September 2013 at 21:47  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Lucy Mullen:

Allow me to be more specific: @10.09 19.09.2013, No.

22 September 2013 at 10:34  
Blogger LEN said...

Peter( 21 September 2013 21:47)
I am beginning to wonder if you are starting[already have?] ' lost the plot?.'

Perhaps too much Truth in 'one go' is too much for you?.

22 September 2013 at 12:54  
Blogger Peter D said...

Len
Tut, tut .... such personal abuse from one calling himself a Christian.

22 September 2013 at 14:26  
Blogger LEN said...

Not 'calling myself' Dodo.I am not a Catholic remember?.

Now about that beam you seem to have in your eye?.

23 September 2013 at 00:45  
Blogger James Pennington said...

All I can say is that Bishop Paul is far more than a manager, though he manages very well. He's a very committed Christian, evangelical, passionate about mission and yes the redeeming of lives for this and the other side of the grave.. I pray he will have the courage to speak boldly, but Southwell, generally considered an evangelical diocese, will miss him.

23 September 2013 at 01:12  

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