Wednesday, October 16, 2013

Archbishop of Canterbury joins Instagram for International Credit Union Day


The Archbishop of Canterbury has joined Instagram with a message urging churches and communities to support their local credit union on International Credit Union (ICU) Day (..no, His Grace had no idea either..) tomorrow, 17th October. The @lambethpalace Instagram account was launched on Monday (no, His Grace had no foreknowledge of that, either)  - the latest addition to Lambeth Palace’s social media channels. The account will publish pictures of the Archbishop’s ministry along with scenes of daily life and worship at Lambeth Palace. It will also feature video messages and prayers from Archbishop Justin, and will be used to document some of his UK and foreign visits. You can follow the account HERE.

Speaking ahead of ICU Day (which is an unfortunate acronym, shared, as it is, with Intensive Care Unit), Archbishop Justin said in his first Instagram message: "Let’s begin to make a difference to how families can finance themselves in this country – join and support a credit union."

In a personal letter being sent to all clergy, the Archbishop underlines this message saying that the one million families who take out payday loans every month can end up in a crippling spiral of debt: "Our faith in Christ calls us to love the poor and vulnerable with our actions," he says. "That is why the Church must be actively involved in supporting the development of real lending alternatives, such as credit unions."

Churches the length and breadth of of the country will be supporting ICU Day, with bishops taking the lead signing up to and supporting local credit unions, including a community credit union pop-up session in London. The Rev'd Dr Malcolm Brown, director of the Church of England’s Mission and Public Affairs Division said: "The credit union sector is extremely well placed to offer real choice about how people manage their money. Credit unions aren’t just for hard pressed communities – all sorts of people could use credit unions to save and to take out loans at manageable interest rates. Archbishop Justin is calling on churches all over the country to work with their local credit unions – and the Church of England is working with the Church of Scotland so that our response runs, literally, from Lands End to John O’Groats."

Mark Lyonette, Chief Executive of the Association of British Credit Unions (ABCUL), said: "We welcome the continuing support of the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Church of England for credit unions. With the wide community reach of the organisation, and the skills within its congregations, the Church can help raise awareness of the benefits of credit unions and help them to grow."

Lambeth Palace have helpfully provided His Grace with the following:

Canterbury – the Bishop of Dover, Trevor Willmott, is hosting an event with Kent Savers CU, including launch of new community investment account and training of volunteers. More information HERE

Oxford – three bishops will putting their money where their mouth is by investing in the Oxford Credit Union. The Bishop of Oxford, John Pritchard, the Bishop of Dorchester, Colin Fletcher and the Bishop of Buckingham, Alan Wilson will be signing on the dotted line on October 17. More information HERE

Southwell & Nottingham diocese is launching ‘25 x 5k’, an ethical saving initiative which allows organisations to join in local credit unions by opening a corporate savings account. The Rt Revd Paul Butler, Bishop of Southwell & Nottingham will visit Nottingham Credit Union on the 17th to pay in a cheque for £5k, which is not a donation but capital to enable them to lend more in the future. Then later he is in Worksop at 2 Shires Credit Union showing support for the 25x5k campaign, by opening a 2 shires savings account with a further £5k. More information HERE

And it seems all bishops have been activated, with:

Birmingham – Bishop of Aston, Andrew Watson, joining Citysave CU at the new Citysave kiosk in the Café of St Martin in the Bullring
Canterbury – Bishop of Dover, Trevor Willmott, hosting an event with Kent Savers CU, including launch of new community investment account and training of volunteers
Chichester – Bishop of Chichester, Martin Warner, hosting launch of West Sussex CU capital-raising appeal at end of month
Coventry – Bishop of Coventry, Christopher Cocksworth, to join Central CU
Durham – the new Bishop of Durham Designate recently underlined his commitment to the fight against poverty and he said that during his tenure he will support initiatives including food banks and credit unions
Exeter: Bishop of Crediton, Nicholas McKinnel, did interview on credit unions on Radio Devon. All four Archdeacons are visiting local credit unions. Diocese is running awareness-raising sessions for clergy.
Guildford – Bishop of Dorking, Ian Brackley, visiting SurreySave
Hereford – Bishop of Ludlow, Alistair Magowan, visiting Sutton Hill CU, Telford
Lichfield: Bishop of Stafford, Geoff Annas, is opening new branch of Staffordshire CU. Diocese is convening regular meetings with local CUs
London – Bishop of Kensington, Paul Williams, attending community pop-up session with clergy and Chief Exec of Your Credit Union. Bishop of Willesden, Pete Broadbent, joining CUBE (Brent & Ealing) alongside council leaders
Manchester – Bishop of Bolton, Christopher Edmondson, joining Hoot CU
Oxford – Bishop of Oxford, John Pritchard and Bishop of Dorchester, Colin Fletcher joining Oxford CU
Ripon and Leeds – Bishop of Ripon & Leeds, John Packer, co-hosting an even wth Leeds CU in city centre for clergy and church members to sign up
St Albans – Bishop of Hertford, Paul Bayes visiting Hertsavers CU
Salisbury – Bishop of Salisbury, Nick Holtam, visiting South Wiltshire CU, Bishop of Ramsbury, Edward Condry, visiting West Wiltshire CU
Sheffield – Bishop of Doncaster, Peter Burrows, joining South Yorkshire CU
Southwark – Bishop of Southwark, Christopher Chessun, visiting London Mutual CU. Bishop of Kingston, Richard Cheetham, is launching SurreySave – London SW, and Bishop of Woolwich, Michael Ipgrave, is visiting Lewisham Plus CU and Greenwich & Bexley CU
Southwell & Notts – Diocese launching own corporate savings scheme and relaunching 100 x 100 scheme
Worcester – the Diocese is opening a corporate account with Castle & Crystal CU

50 Comments:

Blogger Nath said...

A new command,
I give unto you,
that you love one another,
with cheap loans from the local C.U.

16 October 2013 at 13:48  
Blogger non mouse said...

Credit Unions ... How very American!

...and we all know where that debt trail leads to. Like Theseus, though, we need to follow the 'clew.'



16 October 2013 at 14:29  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Your Grace kindly added...
"The account will publish pictures of the Archbishop’s ministry along with scenes of daily life and worship at Lambeth Palace. It will also feature video messages and prayers from Archbishop Justin, and will be used to document some of his UK and foreign visits. You can follow the account HERE. " Err, no ta. I have got a frozen chicken to watch defrost and some gloss on a door that needs drying and my undivided attention least it don't cure.

You really are the 'Religious Anorak', are you not. * Chortling crazily*

Blofeld

16 October 2013 at 14:37  
Blogger Len said...

All credit to the Archbishop as he sets out his stall in the marketplace.

But surely the real focus must be on the debt we owe to God and the means to clear this debt?.

Jesus has paid the price of our debt in full but we must come to Him bankrupt of our own resources before He can redeem us.

16 October 2013 at 15:32  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Well said Len. This attention on money lenders has a familiar ring to it from the Temple. At present they might be doing good but we know which way the money men go.

The focus of the church should be on preaching the Gospel. Born again believers will know how to deal with or avoid debt.

16 October 2013 at 15:46  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Goodness! What a plethora of bishops! My Lord of Barchester has no need of suffrage - he has me! Now, what would be a suitable collective noun for so many bishops?

A mitre of bishops?
A sanctity of bishops?
A common-purpose of bishops?

Any suggestions, gentle readers?

16 October 2013 at 15:57  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Right then, your starter for ten. Who was it who said “My kingdom is not of this world” ?

{BZZZZ}

You, in the the mitre

Was it...erm...no...no it’s gone...

I can throw it open...


16 October 2013 at 16:48  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

But then again...

“I notice you’ve been taking your family to church on Sunday”

”I’ll say ! I get a full half a per cent off the interest on my outstanding debt by doing that !

“Topper ! Can I come with you !”

{VOICE OVER} “See your vicar this Sunday. Offer ends soon. Conditions apply”

16 October 2013 at 16:52  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

It’s no use. A fellow just can’t keep it in him anymore. He is forced, rack-like, to offer his admiration to the two infamous ‘born again hypocrites’ who plague this site who have taken so kindly to this mammonly initiative.

You’d have thought one of the wicked blighters might have wee’ed on the idea...


16 October 2013 at 17:24  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Are credit unions sharia compliant? And if not, how long will it be before we see some bishops withdrawing their support?

Mrs P.

A see of bishops?

16 October 2013 at 17:38  
Blogger IanCad said...

I can't see this as having any good ending at all.

What's next; C of E endorsement of other commercial enterprises?

How long will it be before Lambeth Palace will offer its imprimatur to any company that will cough up a hefty fee?

Sorry to sound cynical but it is the fruit of experience.

16 October 2013 at 20:40  
Blogger David Hussell said...

As Paul tells us, each Christian, including Archbishops, brings their own individual collection of talents and skills to serve God. Welby knows about finance. I sincerely wish him every success in helping to ease the lives of serial, impoverished debtors at the very bottom of the social scale. Jesus would approve of this I'm confident. He may, in so doing, demonstrate the Christian care that the Church has for the materially hard pressed.

But as Len rightly says, Jesus also preached, lived and died, the doctrine of repentance and salvation by embracing God, and putting our faith in Him. It is that faith that then leads to good works and better living. It is the admission of our need for that cleansing that God most desires in us all. Right living in itself is not the first step, but it should be the result of faith.

Archbishops usually have ten years in office. So is this the first practical step ? I will give him the benefit of that question.

16 October 2013 at 20:48  
Blogger IanCad said...

Mrs P of B,

A burp, a cluck, a brawl, a sludge??

The field's wide open!

16 October 2013 at 20:56  
Blogger Jay Bee said...

Mrs P@15:57

A bumble of Bishops?

16 October 2013 at 20:57  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


From the SSM ‘unfortunacity’...

“A useless of bishops”

16 October 2013 at 21:39  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

OIG

"He is forced, rack-like, to offer his admiration to the two infamous ‘born again hypocrites’ who plague this site who have taken so kindly to this mammonly initiative.(You cad Sir, where has Ernst given tacit approval to said initiative??. You appear to have forgot that Mother Rome has her fingers up and in the global Banca Cattolica and isn't averse to a nice smattering of usury!!!

It's not like the Vatican has done this already and you are a bit jealous...ooooh HELLO!!!https://www.cffcu.com/Default.aspx

Ian Cad

"What's next; C of E endorsement of other commercial enterprises?" Indeed but Ernst hears that the Roman Church has not let the grass grow under its feet with CofE advancements in mammon. It has taken over the famous Dr Oetker product brand as is re-branding it as Dr. Ratzinger'sPapal Pizzas.

" Two lines of styles are being promoted under this exciting management change.

Pizza Casa di Madonna Range includes the Diavola and Quattro Sinicchi. For those that like guilt and need something to confess about, this is the bishops b"**%$". Both come in a confessional box packaged presentation and as each slice is removed it chirps up 'Forgive Father for I have sinned ' to add tone and atmosphere to the feast!!

or Try

The Inquistion Speciale with specially selected heretics and spices :For best results, stretch vigorously and cook on a rack in the bottom third of the dungeon.

DA PAPA's Top Tip: To ensure the doooh rises to perfection, pre-heat your oven to approx 220 degrees Gehennaheit) and ensure your racking tray is hot, hot, HOT . Place the pauper (or greaseproofed pauper) on the hot racking tray and cook for 10-15 minutes turning continually to get a constant screaming from the pizza. *See back of included donation envelope for details of bonus indulgence pizza.*

{*Holy Imprimatur Chef warning*}: An indulgence pizza is thus not sent for forgiveness of the guilt of sin nor for release from the eternal punishment due to unforgiven mortal sins; nor is it a permit to commit sin, a pardon of future sin, nor a guarantee of salvation for oneself or for another eater.
Ordinarily, forgiveness of grave sins is to be obtained only through the sacrament of Confession...see Pizza Casa di Madonna Range for complimentary confessional package!!!

Email pronto: service@DR.ratzinger.de

Blofeld

PS

Just about to order the 18" 'Pontiff Supreme' with Quattro Popaggio toppings ( Hormisdas, Sisinnius, Paschallis and Formosus - the medieval range) YUMMY!!!

16 October 2013 at 23:27  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Blofeld, you scallywag. You appeared on this thread earlier and you did not condemn ! Tacit approval them, what !

From a papist witness, no less, sir.

16 October 2013 at 23:58  
Blogger Len said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

17 October 2013 at 01:03  
Blogger Len said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

17 October 2013 at 01:05  
Blogger Len said...

Inspector.... straining at gnats and swallowing camels seems to be a preoccupation within your chosen religion?

17 October 2013 at 01:06  
Blogger Richard Watterson said...

I would have thought that a church that offered people practical help, rather than simply prattling and moralising at them, might be taken more seriously by people in need of its message. But what do I know?

17 October 2013 at 07:48  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Richard Watterson

"I would have thought that a church that offered people practical help, rather than simply prattling and moralising at them, might be taken more seriously by people in need of its message. But what do I know?" But would it not be wonderful if they did both rather than confusing one as it being the other?

Blofeld

17 October 2013 at 09:30  
Blogger Youthpasta said...

Following on from Richard's comment, it also struck me that this could be the reason.
Let's face it, the banks are looked upon by many, even on the right politically, as villains behind the current misfortunes of the world. Ethically run financial services could very well be where people will shift, when they can, to avoid being "screwed by the man"in future. If they see the Church (of which ever flavour) as a part of this ethical framework then they may decide that, rather than being irrelevant, the Church has something to offer them, other than financially.
It may not be a perfect solution, but we live in an imperfect world and at least this is meeting a need. And who knows, maybe someone will ask their parish priest why they are supporting the local credit union and it may lead to a conversation about Jesus.

17 October 2013 at 09:48  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Youthpasta.

"t may not be a perfect solution, but we live in an imperfect world and at least this is meeting a need. And who knows, maybe someone will ask their parish priest why they are supporting the local credit union and it may lead to a conversation about Jesus." Indeed but the answer is to reverse the conversation, Jesus is your NEED and we want to help you spiritually and practically.
They want to offer a dying man bread when the cure is Christ first but we must look 'practical' first and hope 'they' come back to do our task!

Blofeld

17 October 2013 at 10:20  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Youthpasta,

You have a point. There is a long tradition in Anglicanism of reaching out to help address the needs of the ordinary people. Hence the C of E started most of the village schools in this country, followed swiftly by the Methodist, and many of them are still C of E schools.
Florence Nightingale and Wilberforce, were committed Anglicans devoted to a "social gospel" , and there were many fine, dedicated Anglo-Catholic priests working in the inner city industrial slums of the 19th century who brought much joy to the poor.

This "social gospel" sits comfortably within the tradition of Jesus's attacks against the rich and powerful, including hypocritical Temple priests, who cared not for the poor, and so failed "to love thy neighbour". The RC equivalent may be the slum priests of South America, but who became distinctly Marxist, and therefore strayed too far from their basic theology, hence they were stopped.

However I agree with Blofeld, to a degree, when he says that the works of practical compassion should be accompanied by preaching the gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ, "I am the way....". But as I said earlier, Welby has only just started, so for God's sake, give an Archbishop a break will you chaps !

17 October 2013 at 11:48  
Blogger Peter David said...

This reminds me of that old song,

Fools rush in were angels fear to tread ….

So, we have come down to the mini banking schemes seen throughout the third world but this time run by the CofE. That’s how a few of the big banks started centuries ago amazing what can be done with the help of a few liberal socialists; ruin a country!
Will they float this on the Stock Market?

17 October 2013 at 11:51  
Blogger Youthpasta said...

Ernst, I completely agree that they need Christ. But if they don't have bread then they may not last long enough to reach salvation.
I am not suggesting that this move is as far as the church goes, but as James points out we need to show our faith through works (not saying works bring salvation, just that faith without works is meaningless) and if, by supporting credit unions, people see that Christians and the Church is putting it's money where it's mouth is (literally in this case) then they will give greater value to the words of the Church.

I completely recognise that bread does not bring salvation, that in the grand scheme of things the Gospel must be proclaimed when and wherever possible, but as St Francis pointed out, that does not always mean using words.

17 October 2013 at 12:34  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Youthpasta,

Exactly, well put !

This scheme may founder, but let's hope not, and until we know enough to measure its results all reasonable caring people, especially Christians should wish it well, I suggest.

Given the overpowering domination of the anti-Christian media, entertainment industries and celebrity culture, not to mention our "caring" anti-Christian Government, it is now extremely difficult for any Church to reach and touch anyone outside the Christian family. This practical idea, whose effectiveness we shall not be able to judge for some time, may well be a sincere way to break that mould. Just think, for example, of the attitude of gratitude and respect, after all these years, towards the Salvation Army which gave very practical help and care, and which is still remembered by the remaining members of the wartime generation.

17 October 2013 at 14:02  
Blogger IanCad said...

If the good archbishop is concerned about ethics in the financial sector then the question arises as to why so little heed is being paid to the purloining of 6.5 million pounds of public money in the construction of the new Dartington C of E Primary School.

This utter monstrosity, finished less than three years ago is so badly designed and constructed that the pupils are now being taught in tents.

There appeaar to be no sanctions on the horizon affecting either the architects (White Design) or the contractor (Interserve)

I will say that if such a fiasco were to occur in the US, both the contractor and architect would lose their professional licenses and the taxpayer would be made whole by the insurance companies involved.

We're talking big bucks here.

C'mon Archbishop, your name's on the school, let's get our money back.

Already the wagons have been circled. The LABC, the school administration, contractor and architect are all denying responsibility.

Although not representing the Totnes area I think I'll contact our local MP Mel Stride; He's a good guy.

I'm steaming!

17 October 2013 at 14:19  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

I thought this Jesus guy told his mates to give their gear away if anyone asked for it, not charge 12% interest on a loan. When I do a bit of street busking to top up my benefit these god botherers tell me I need to repent and be saved but never put any coinage in the hat.

17 October 2013 at 15:08  
Blogger non mouse said...

Right, Mr. Hussell(11:48) - even in Roman times it was the Christians who ran the schools. Then, after 597 - the monks set up the literacy/schooling system with the Anglo-Saxons (and some help from Celtic/Irish monks). Hadrian was the one who really got them going.

The Church knew that to communicate with the people, it had to do so in our own language, so it trained the monks - and then extended to others. King Alfred, you'll remember, supported the revival of that method after the Viking depradations.

And education and literacy (including libraries, of course) remained a Church responsibility for centuries - most frequently associated with the monasteries. So this idea of shoving Christians away from what they made is very peculiar indeed. Dangerous, too.

With regard to the topic today, I have read opinions to the effect that Christians in Italy originally became successful in business and banking because of their high principles and trustworthiness. Well --- then there was Macchiavelli (?sp), etc. And, of course, there were reasons why we British had various reformations...
However, is there any precedent for Church ownership of financial institutions in this country?

It seems to me that when Christ spoke of the 'owner of the vineyard,' he wasn't referring to bankers and mortgage-holders.

17 October 2013 at 15:55  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Ian Cad

I'm surprised it hasn't occurred to any of the guilty parties to shift the blame onto the European Union. It's the usual excuse in such cases. "Ah yes, but Brussels, you see... "

17 October 2013 at 15:59  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Non mouse,

"precedent for Church ownership of financial institutions in this country?"

Well, no, not to my knowledge. But of course the attitude of the medieval church towards lending at interest, and ursury, led to the Jews virtually single -handedly creating financial networks across europe, all very useful for travelers, but I digress. The Vatican Bank is of course well known.
But I don't see why the apparent absence of precedent is a barrier to a new initiative, do you?, if that is where The Church can give practical help to the needy?
Whether this is practical in financial terms I have not a clue.
I agree with you regarding the parable of the Vineyard, or the Wicked Tenants, Luke 20 : 9-18. But according to some, it is also a reference to the exploitative large landowners of that period, often absentee, with their impoverished tenants doing all the hard work for little reward. So that parable can now be, by some scholars at least, reinterpreted in the light of social studies to mean something else, not instead of, but in addition to its traditional God the Father, God the Son, interpretation. So it's more relevant perhaps than you thought ? Depends on what exactly you thought.

17 October 2013 at 16:41  
Blogger Anthony Joseph said...

The two warring tribes, sorry political parties can offer only new forms of the old misery. Perhaps the Church can renew itself by renewing the people, and offering something different to the secularised enslavement to capital that is all the politicians seem able to offer. Practical help to improve peoples lives is at least a start.

17 October 2013 at 19:29  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

17 October 2013 at 23:44  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Youth Pasta wrote; if they don't have bread then they may not last long enough to reach salvation.
This is true but which was more useful to those who were tarred and burnt as torches for Nero?
They were able to endure just as our Blogger was able to endure because of their enduring faith, not bread in the stomach.
Bread helps just as Jesus fed the five thousand and performed many miracles that showed the people that he was special.
Miracles today are good but the power of the Holy Spirit to speak to the lost and bring them unto him is an amazing miracle that the church should be exploiting.

Mrs. P. A Cuckold of Bishops.

17 October 2013 at 23:47  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
Article XII

Albeit that Good Works, which are the fruits of Faith, and follow after Justification, cannot put away our sins, and endure the severity of God's Judgement; yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ, and do spring out necessarily of a true and lively Faith; insomuch that by them a lively Faith may be as evidently known as a tree discerned by the fruit.

18 October 2013 at 00:16  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

I'm rather late commenting because I'm in Turks and Caicos. An island with many lively churches, blessed with good sunshine and sandy beaches.

18 October 2013 at 00:19  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Mr Integrity, you have our sympathies; all that sand between your toes, the heat, nothing much to do but loaf around, eat and drink without any schedules and get sunburned. Awful.

Stand strong, soon you will be back home with the shady grey skies, the cool gentle rains, the invigorating commuting races and the exciting, dynamic interactions at the office.

18 October 2013 at 04:06  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

18 October 2013 at 04:26  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

O, what the heck. I wasn't going to participate, but in the spirit of inter-faith amity: a Quackle of Bishops?

All excellent entries, but my top two contenders, the criterion being spontaneous eruption of guffaws: a Useless and a Cuckold of Bishops.

18 October 2013 at 04:29  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Jack says now the bishops are into banking they should be known as a Cartel of Bishops.

18 October 2013 at 11:54  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Pffft!

18 October 2013 at 12:23  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

YouthPast and David H

"And who knows, maybe someone will ask their parish priest why they are supporting the local credit union and it may lead to a conversation about Jesus." " Ernst's point being that we are 'hoping' by their own initiative that the person will come back once he/she has the two hundred and fifty quid in their hands..Jesus and the ten lepers springs to mind ;

Luke 17 about a time that Jesus gave an amazing gift to ten men. And while all ten of them may have been happy that they received a gift, only one of them chose to show their thankfulness to Jesus. This is recorded from out of all the mighty things our Lord did by the Holy Spirit regarding our attitude to gratitude!!!

Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem. He traveled along the border between Samaria and Galilee. As he was going into a village, ten men met him. They had a skin disease. They were standing close by. And they called out in a loud voice, “Jesus! Master! Have pity on us!”

Jesus saw them and said, “Go. Show yourselves to the priests.” While they were on the way, they were healed.

When one of them saw that he was healed, he came back. He praised God in a loud voice. He threw himself at Jesus’ feet and thanked Him. The man was a Samaritan.

When Jesus saw the Samaritan, He immediately wondered about the other nine men who had also been healed.

Jesus asked, “Weren’t all ten healed? Where are the other nine? Didn’t anyone else return and give praise to God except this outsider?”

Then Jesus said to him, “Get up and go. Your faith has healed you.”

When Jesus gave His life for you and me, His blood healed us from a disease or situations much more hideous than leprosy or hunger or debt worries. Do you remember when we talk constantly here on this blog about how sin spoils everything? Well, sin spoils us too! Like a terrible disease, sin ruins us.

Sin is a great spiritual need that requires healing. We seem to recognize physical needs better than spiritual needs. When we’re hungry, we eat. When we’re sick, we go to the doctor. When we’re tired, we sleep but we ignore our greatest need and our fellow man/woman that is of our ETERNAL destiny, unless you accept universal salvation and that Christ is only one of many doors to heaven?

If only one came back who was a Samaritan but the other 9 who were jews did not, do we hope that for the 9 lost, one may be saved will be the ratio in our dealings through our aims if we fail to mention Christ in this...What guarantees have we.

Best to preach Christ emphatically hand in hand with any project we do or it will not function as God requires ... or are we too embarrassed to mention Christ's name to the world now with what we do supposedly in His name.!!!

It doesn't feed them etc..Well why did He say
""Therefore do not worry, saying, ; What will we eat?' or 'What will we wear? For it is the Gentiles who strive for all these things; and indeed your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.But strive first for the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. ( Matthew 6:31-33) " or "So do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring worries of its own. Today's trouble is enough for today." ( Matthew 6:34)

"And can any of you by worrying add a single hour to the span of life?" ( Luke 12:25)

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled, and do not let them be afraid." ( John 14:27)..IF WE CANNOT TRUST HIM ONCE WE BELIEVE. Do we not want to help the lost to make them His flock? Well then!

Blofeld

18 October 2013 at 12:59  
Blogger Youthpasta said...

Ernst, you seem to being excessively literal about all this.

End of the day, credit unions are better for people than Wonga. If the Church can help to reduce the number of people in debt through loans from the likes of Wonga (or those even worse) then it is acting in a loving way towards people from a financial perspective.

If it is seen to be doing this at a time when money worries are the top of most people's worry list then the Church is making itself relevant to the people.

If the Church is relevant to people then they start to seek for themselves the reasons behind the actions of the Church and, as a result, can find a relationship with Christ.

It is not perfect, it is not the only way it can happen, but it is a way that is relevant at this moment in time and will help a lot of people.

Yes, in an ideal world we would go out into the streets, or meet up with our non-Christian friends, preach the Gospel, see them come to faith and see God's Church grow. But we are in anything but an ideal world, so we must do what we can in ways that will get people listening to what we say.

Imagine, if you will, that OIG were as obnoxious and odious as he portrays himself on this forum. And imagine that people know him to be like that where he lives. How will they respond to him if he goes and preaches the Gospel on his local high street? I am guessing that he would be, at best, ignored and, at worst, hounded out of town. Would this be because of what he was saying? In OIG's case (ignoring the possible delivery style issues) it would be no different from any other street preachers in terms of content, yet others would do far better because of the baggage that OIG will have picked up due to how people perceive him due to his behaviour.

Now imagine that someone turns up in the town and all people see him doing for a week is feeding the hungry, relieving the debt of the poor and comforting those in need of comfort. And then, on the Saturday, he gets up and preaches the Gospel message. How do you think the reaction to this person is likely to differ from how OIG's reaction?

Look at how Jesus was in His ministry. He spoke about the Kingdom but He also acted to show it. People listened at first out of curiosity. They stayed because of what they saw, because Jesus lived what He preached.

Again, I am not saying that this is the only thing that the Church should be doing to help people, because Salvation is the ultimate help for anyone. But it is a positive action to help those that need financial support at this time, a response to a need, and people WILL take notice of this.

18 October 2013 at 13:58  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

YouthPasta

"If the Church can help to reduce the number of people in debt through loans from the likes of Wonga (or those even worse) then it is acting in a loving way towards people from a financial perspective." But this goes against the line of why the CofE is doing this...Andrew Brown, Secretary to the Church Commissioners, said: “This is a great opportunity for the Commissioners to invest in an exciting opportunity for the benefit of the serving and retired clergy, bishops, cathedrals and the wide work of the Church of England throughout the country especially in areas of need and opportunity.”

"If it is seen to be doing this at a time when money worries are the top of most people's worry list then the Church is making itself relevant to the people." Will it's rates be more competitive than other high st lenders such as Barclays, HSBC, Lloyds etc and will they be more likely to lend to vulnerable peiople who cannot afford to payback hence their refuce by high st but welcomed by wonga and co??

"Now imagine that someone turns up in the town and all people see him doing for a week is feeding the hungry, relieving the debt of the poor and comforting those in need of comfort. And then, on the Saturday, he gets up and preaches the Gospel message. How do you think the reaction to this person is likely to differ from how OIG's reaction?

Look at how Jesus was in His ministry. He spoke about the Kingdom but He also acted to show it. People listened at first out of curiosity. They stayed because of what they saw, because Jesus lived what He preached." How is this relevant to the new credit loan union which will be called Williams and Glyn’s (W&G) not Father and Son or Trinity Bank!!!...ans what would it's flyers or billboard posters look like ' The Love of Christ for the poor in action'?..hardly!

"The Church Commissioners for England confirmed that as PART OF A CONSORTIUM of investors they will be partnering with Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) to create a leading challenger bank from 314 RBS branches across the UK." Hardly the CofE in action on it's own initiative and sole risk, now is it? When it starts making nice profits and this is published can you not see the furore of a church in hand with mammon where Christ is hardly mentioned...or have we learnt nothinbg from the Vatican Bank on this. Thye had people in charge that would give the Mafia a bad name?

Blofeld

18 October 2013 at 14:51  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

You should be hungry, cold and scared and be told god loves so not to worry. Didn't cut anything with me. I was helped by a sally army bod who got me a place to stay.

Jack watches and wonders about all these things. He was told once that as he did not work he should not get food. I think these bishops are doing good and if only one in ten thanks them then that is one more than before. And he'll have mates.

18 October 2013 at 17:51  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Wise and sobering words, Happy Jack. We easily forget the damage misfortune and poverty can inflict on our minds, wills and souls, rendering us physically incapable to raise ourselves without a helping hand. In thanking your helpers and Almighty's merciful Providence, you mustn't forget to pat your own back a little for your own efforts as well, though. Your access to an electronic contraption and reference to shopping on the other post above suggests that you are in happier times and at a happier place. If that is so, your happiness is mine as well.

18 October 2013 at 18:08  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Avi, thank you for your kind words. Jack was Happy even when the storm clouds were there. I have a good person who got me a place to live a few years ago. Put me on a computer course and then a lap top to stop me becoming lonely.

18 October 2013 at 18:31  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Happy Jack said...

You should be hungry, cold and scared and be told god loves so not to worry. Didn't cut anything with me. (It doesn't appear that you took up the offer to see if He did) I was helped by a sally army bod who got me a place to stay (But this is practical christian charity and love that Wonga does NOT offer nor provide by it's services and neither would Williams and Glyn’s (W&G). This is the functioning body of the church providing care and love NOT financial services!!)

Jack watches and wonders about all these things. He was told once that as he did not work he should not get food (It appears you have met the cold heart of humanity). I think these bishops are doing good (The details have not been expressed as to who it will help and at what costs that will be applied but Ernsty has provided the outline of the concept above from their own words and it ain't what you are thinking) and if only one in ten thanks them (But it will not be expressly christian as a bank so why should they and it's rates maybe substantially higher than High St Banks!!!They are not offering 'come one and all' and will be as selective of who they help....It will be run as a business NOT a charity) then that is one more than before. And he'll have mates (Do you seriously believe that the 'down on their luck' and 'outsiders of society' will be offered 'Mates Rates' then. If only fella, if only

Blofeld

18 October 2013 at 20:27  

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