Thursday, December 19, 2013

Prince Charles confronts Baroness Warsi over 'Political Islam'


While the Government's Minister for Faith and Communities Baroness Warsi insists that the persecution and eradication of Christians in the Middle East has absolutely nothing to do with Islam, the Prince of Wales has exposed the lie.

While the Noble Baroness asserts quite vehemently that such persecution is "mostly the work of extremists who do not follow any faith", Prince Charles tells it like it is: he terms them (somewhat tautologically) "fundamentalist Islamist militants". Certainly, the Islamist may not be the Baroness's preferred sort of Muslim expressing her preferred interpretation of Islam, but the Prince of Wales does not sweep the matter under the carpet, as the Baroness prefers to do, by seeking to divorce the systematic 'cleansing' of Christians in the Middle East from the virulent strain of Islamic theology which inspires and feeds it.

Prince Charles is clearly aware - while the Baroness apparently is not - that there is a vastly influential school of thought within Islam which believes that the only truly devout Muslim is a fundamentalist one. This particular strain - the Wahhabi-Salafist school which is spreading like a plague through Syria, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon and Egypt, infecting many hundreds of thousands, if not millions of the Baroness's co-religionists ("who do not follow any faith") - believes 'jihad' to be a struggle for the glory of Allah to the death against the apostate, blasphemer and non-believer - the kuffar - who are lower than pigs but not quite as low as the Jews.

Ruth Gledhill has the story for The Times. The sub-ed title is provocative (journalists rarely write their own, though they are invariably blamed for them): the Prince of Wales didn't quite say that Islam is to blame, but he did say:
“It seems to me that we cannot ignore the fact that Christians in the Middle East are, increasingly, being deliberately attacked by fundamentalist Islamist militants. Christianity was, literally, born in the Middle East and we must not forget our Middle Eastern brothers and sisters in Christ.

“For 20 years, I have tried to build bridges between Islam and Christianity and to dispel ignorance and misunderstanding. The point though, surely, is that we have now reached a crisis where the bridges are rapidly being deliberately destroyed by those with a vested interest in doing so, and this is achieved through intimidation, false accusation and organised persecution, including to Christian communities in the Middle East at the present time.”
Building bridges is a laudable objective: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God." At this time of the year, it is right to acknowledge all those who work tirelessly for peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding, of which the Prince of Wales is a leading and increasingly influential figure.

We have often heard him speaking up on behalf of British Muslims, but here he is raising the profile of the appalling plight of Christians in the Middle East - his "brothers and sisters in Christ", as he calls them. And here is just one account of the horrific reality of their present suffering:
What happened in Sadad is the most serious and biggest massacre of Christians in Syria in the past two years and a half… 45 innocent civilians were martyred for no reason, and among them several women and children, many thrown into mass graves. Other civilians were threatened and terrorized. 30 were wounded and 10 are still missing. For one week, 1,500 families were held as hostages and human shields. Among them children, the elderly, the young, men and women…. All the houses of Sadad were robbed and property looted. The churches are damaged and desecrated, deprived of old books and precious furniture… What happened in Sadad is the largest massacre of Christians in Syria and the second in the Middle East, after the one in the Church of Our Lady of Salvation in Iraq, in 2010.
Archbishop Selwanos Boutros Alnemeh, Syriac Orthodox Metropolitan of Homs and Hama, pleads with us: “We have shouted aid to the world but no one has listened to us. Where is the Christian conscience? Where is human consciousness? Where are my brothers? I think of all those who are suffering today in mourning and discomfort: We ask everyone to pray for us.”

At least your brother the Prince of Wales has heard.

Ms Gledhill notes that Prince Ghazi bin Muhammad, chief adviser for religious and cultural affairs and personal envoy of King Abdullah II of Jordan, acknowledged the Prince of Wales's record in defending Muslims, and now the need for reciprocity: “Since Muslims can generally live in dignity in Christian-majority countries, they must stand for the dignity of Christians in Muslim-majority countries.”

“Everywhere else in the Middle East Christians are wondering what the rise of these movements, and of politicised Islam in general, means for their future,” the Prince added.

Both Prince Charles and Prince Ghazi present Baroness Warsi with an unpalatable truth: 'Political Islam' is an undoubted expression of Islam, not an ideology of those "who do not follow any faith". Of course, all religions have their intolerant sects and extremists - both violent and peaceful - but fundamentalist zealotry is not overcome by turning a blind eye to theological distortion or by deflecting from the fons et origo of their evil acts.

'Political Islam' contends that Islam possesses a theory of politics and the state, and we see that this theory is somewhat at odds with modernity. It is unsurprising that Muslim political activism has become synonymous with terrorism when so little media attention is dedicated to those who seek to relate their religion to contemporary social concerns - ie to contextualise it in the light of modern sociopolitical notions of justice, human rights and liberal democracy. The Islamist tends to want the whole of society to revert to the Mecca of AD 610 or, more accurately, the Medina of 622: in this context, the rest of us simply become dhimis, while the practices and principles of 'the Prophet' regulate society with a distinct Muslim polity, including the struggle - jihad - for defence, survival and dominance.    

We must thank God that the Prince of Wales has taken up the cause of persecuted Christians across the Middle East: it is, quite literally, an answer to the prayers of millions, for when Prince Charles gets a bee in his bonnet about an issue, he tends to do more than make a few speeches of agitation. Thank God he is alive to the reality that many Muslim countries harbour extremists and intolerant fanatics who believe it is their duty (and the will of Allah after the example of Mohammed) to slaughter the infidel Christians. Of course, some of these Islamists now dwell among us: it is perhaps only a matter of time before we begin to taste some of this “organised persecution” ourselves - if, indeed, the infection is not already coursing through the arteries of our liberal, tolerant and accommodating multicultural relativism.

If, as the Prince of Wales asserts, the world is in danger of losing something “irreplaceably precious” - Christian communities in the Middle East which can trace their heritage back to the time of Jesus and the Apostles - then we, too, must pray daily for our brothers and sisters in Christ. They are the new wave of martyrs, crucified for Christ. Their suffering is ours; their mourning is ours; their grief is the agony of us all.  

68 Comments:

Blogger The Explorer said...

Is returning a borrowed knife a good thing to do? asks Socrates. Not if it will be used to commit a murder.

Is building a bridge a good thing?

Not if it's the bridge on the River Kwai.

19 December 2013 at 08:37  
Blogger David Hussell said...

The Explorer,

Interesting point.

Can it be said that the Tower of Babel, amongst other things, is a sign that God recognizes that different groups, languages and cultures will, for their own good, require separate areas of the world in which to live? God I suggest recognizes separate countries, as a necessary means of keeping those who may disagree , separate, for their own sake. So separation is not something wonderful, but simply a pragmatic response to our flawed natures, our intolerance, sadly, for differences. The Post-Modern, relativistic, liberal doctrine that all diversity is a wonderful, unquestionable thing cuts across this ancient wisdom.
Now in the ME separate groups have lived alongside one another for aeons, and often not on the basis of equality. But here in the west it is, generalizing now, a relatively new thing. So those liberal, relativistic theories are yet to be tested.

Multiculturalism is of course a myth, since we have separate development now, an apartheid if you like, or polyculturalism perhaps ? So what happened to the much vaunted "social cohesion" that I understood was predicted to flow from such innovations ?
It would be very good if all could live peacefully together, without the heavy hand of a dictator keeping the peace, and with justice for all, but what is history and reality telling us ?
And what brand of justice are we aiming for ? I have no faith in an "equalities" top down imposed one.
Justice, to be seen as justice, must reflect the nature and beliefs of those who live under its laws, which brings me back to where I started, different peoples are well different. Short of utopia or heaven where does that leave us ?. With some profound practical problems I think.

19 December 2013 at 08:59  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Lots of issues there, David; so my response to them will be in stages.

First point. Area of outstanding natural beauty, but difficult to get to. Entrepreneur, builds road through it, and car park, and parade of shops selling ice cream and post cards.

But now he's made it like everywhere else, what's the point in going there? The atmosphere has been ruined. Is there a case for keeping some places (historic ones, too, come to mind) different?

19 December 2013 at 09:25  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Continued.

I don't think sufficient attention is paid to climate as a cultural factor. But it is no accident that buildings in cold countries have dark walls and steep roofs, and buildings in hot countries are whitewashed and flat-roofed. French cuisine on the Atlantic coast is not that of Mediterranean France.

Multiculturalism, it seems to me, makes sense only in its old global sense. I'm a great fan of global multiculturalism, and I love to visit it because it is different. And there must BE different cultures if multiculturalism in this sense is to exist.

I'm thus an implacable foe of the mindset that sought global Aryanism, and of the arrogance of Western liberalism in asserting itself as the automatic model for everyone else.

(Broad sweep, this, and lots of provisos. Not all practices everywhere are to be applauded.)

I have strayed from HG's topic; except in a most oblique sense.

Apologies, Your Grace. Multicultural meditations over.

19 December 2013 at 10:04  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
For the first time in decades I can say, Well done Prince Charles.

However, Archbishop Selwanos Boutros Alnemeh need not look to David Cameron for help. His brethren are the Gays who seek to destroy the moral values of the Church worldwide so they may feel comfortable in society.

The media have been responsible for listening to the biased reports that show the rebels as being the good guys.

David Hassell @8:59; God destroyed the Tower of Babel, not as you sugest that divergent communties are better apart, but to prevent Man saying to himself how great I am and in no need of a God. This is I believe also part of why God used Luther to break the monopoly of the Roman Church.

19 December 2013 at 10:32  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Good for Charles - now let the rest of the Churches back him from their pulpits.

We have become numbingly accustomed to the vile acts being systematically committed by Muslims in many countries on any minorities defenseless before them.

We are being fed sugar-coated suicide pills of 'news' and which we swallow with the enthusiasm of Pavlovian dogs. A soldier is beheaded in the street but the media rush to interview Muslims 'living in fear' of a backlash. What has to happen before our gutless politicians say enough is enough.

The global impression of world Islam and Islamic intentions should not be judged by the peaceful Muslim living next door but by the content of the Koran:it directs both the peaceful and the violent Muslims how to justify the actions of their 'brothers' engaged Mohammad's command of jihad against us - the kuffar .

IT'S IN BLACK AND WHITE FFS!

It would seem that we have been conditioned to care more about who won XFactor or what Nigella had for breakfast than the silent genocide taking place all over the world.

19 December 2013 at 10:38  
Blogger Jane Cobb said...

Meanwhile Charles has the usual Christian plank in his eye over the repressive and intolerant nature of his own espoused religion and their ongoing desire to retain their special privileges to the detriment of secular society.

19 December 2013 at 10:42  
Blogger Len said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

19 December 2013 at 10:54  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Jane @ 10:54

If that were true (and if it's your real name) it would be the last comment you'd make.

We'd have tracked you down and killed you for insulting our religion.

19 December 2013 at 11:00  
Blogger Len said...

Christians all over the world are being burned alive, beheaded, crucified, tortured to death and imprisoned in metal shipping containers just because of what they believe. This persecution goes on year after year and it is steadily intensifying. But the governments of the western world and the mainstream media are almost entirely ignoring what is happening.
This killings of Christians is too horrific to show here but these are accompanied by shouts of “Allahu Akbar!”as the Christians are butchered.


19 December 2013 at 11:03  
Blogger John Wrake said...

Jane Cobb,

I find it interesting that your anti-Christian rant should choose an image from the words of Christ to make your point.

People like you are always telling the rest of us how society is now secular. How on earth have you managed such tremendous growth in the face of all the awful Christian persecution you have been suffering?

John Wrake.

19 December 2013 at 11:04  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Huh. Never thought I'd have anything good to say about Chas Windsor. I suppose even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

19 December 2013 at 11:27  
Blogger Len said...

Arming 'rebels' in parts of the World has made bad situations considerably worse.Once 'rebels' get their hands on weapons they then seem to then start to establish extreme Islamic rule (these are the' bad Muslims' not the 'good Muslims' referred to by Baroness Warsi of course)
Islamic rule is very bad news for Christians they either leave(if they can)covert to Islam or die.

19 December 2013 at 11:28  
Blogger bluedog said...

A watershed or a turning point, Your Grace, and an excellent post too, if your communicant may say so.

At last a member of the British Establishment has had the moral courage to expose the lie that is Islam. On the basis of his historic pronouncements on the topic of Islam, it is a surprise to find that the prophet is HRH Prince of Wales. But clearly we have in Prince Charles a man who has tried to find the good in Islam but has given up. His words represent a personal epiphany, and are at least as significant as those of Pope Benedict in his 2005 Regensburg address. Sadly Benedict later went to water in the face of threats from the House of Islam and retreated from his initial position.

We must pray that Prince Charles now has the courage to stand by his revelation and not to take a backward step. We know that the followers of Islam do not believe in the competition of ideas and will kill to assert the primacy of their creed.

Importantly even the most unimaginative members of the political elite may now get the message. Less than a month ago your communicant was in post-prandial discussion with a country bigwig, a mover and shaker, and the topic turned to Islam. As a director of two London schools boards your communicant's counter-party was adamant that Muslims were splendid law abiding people and to say otherwise was racist slander, or words to that effect. Apparently the real problem was to be found in the emergence of a perpetual white under-class, unemployed for generations.

Bravo HRH, you have just made the exact same arguments that this communicant made in the face of robust and trenchant disagreement.

Even the most gullible members of the political elite may now find the courage to question the multicultural orthodoxy that supports Islam in Britain.

The tide has just turned.

19 December 2013 at 11:40  
Blogger bigsammyb said...

I think you need to get your faxcts straight. THe vast majority of Iraqis are Shia not Sunni and the vast majority of Syrians are Shia or Alowyte not Sunni.

19 December 2013 at 12:12  
Blogger Philip said...

Excellent HRH said this. Perhaps he'll say something about the marginalisation and increasing hostility in this nation to "The Faith" that the Coronation Oath will require him to defend.

While nothing compared to what Christians suffer in the M East, there are still the problems and trends here - ask the B&B owners hauled before the courts and fined and driven out of business into poverty, evangelists arrested, employees disciplined or sacked due to Christian beliefs on sexual ethics and so on. Perhaps he'll say something about the intolerance to our historic constitutional faith being stirred up by our "liberal tolerant and accommodating multicultural relativism" (which is tolerant and accommodating of everything except The Faith HRH will be required to defend)

Perhaps he'll stand for the uniqueness of Christ, as held by The Faith he will be required to defend.

19 December 2013 at 12:32  
Blogger Naomi King said...


About 50,000 Syrian Christians want to apply for Russian citizenship. In a letter to the Russian Foreign Ministry, they said that they were not planning to flee Syria, but if threatened with physical elimination, they would pin their hopes on Russia as the guarantor of their survival. Analysts think that despite the difficulties their request may involve, it won’t go unheeded.

The letter reached Moscow through diplomatic channels. It says that the West-backed muslim armies are prepared to go to any lengths to wipe Christians out of Syria. The authors of the letter have no intention of fleeing the “land where Jesus walked” and promise to defend their “homeland, dignity and faith”. They see Russia as the guarantor of “peace and stability”. They are not asking for money or humanitarian aid, but just hope to obtain Russian citizenship. “We will be under the protection of Russia if we face the threat of being physically eliminated by muslims,” the letter says.

Considering what’s going on in Syria, their wish to have Russian passports looks justified, Stanislav Tarasov, Director of the Middle East-Caucasus research center, told the Voice of Russia.

“For them, it’s a laissez-passer. No one knows what will happen to Syria. Some forecasts suggest that, with or without Assad, Syria may become a confederation, or it may split into three or four parts and cease being single state. That’s why the Syrian Christians are trying to secure Russia’s support,” he said.

About 50,000 Syrians put their signatures under the address – medics, engineers, lawyers and businessmen residing in the Kalamoun area near Damascus. The fact that so many people signed the letter throws weight behind it, but on the other hand it makes things more complicated for Russia, said Sergei Sergeichev, a senior fellow at the Institute for Middle East Studies in Moscow.

“Not that it puts us in an awkward situation, but it sort of diverts the Russian Foreign Ministry’s efforts as the ministry is obliged to react to that address", says Sergeichev. "We cannot say ‘no’ to those people. But if we say ‘yes’ and then something happens, then we will have to evacuate huge numbers of Russian citizens. And it doesn’t matter whether those are people solely with Russian citizenship or they have two passports – Russian and Syrian. If the president orders evacuation, they will have to be evacuated, which is a very complicated rescue operation.”

Syria is not the only country where Christians do not feel safe. According to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life research organization, Christians are persecuted and harassed in 130 countries.

Today, Christians are the most persecuted religious community almost entirely by Muslims. Every hour, one Christian is killed in the world. They are killed because of their faith.

19 December 2013 at 12:36  
Blogger Naomi King said...


Does it seem strange that Christians are turning to Russia for help even as the West supplies their enemies with arms? In the 20th Century, we had come to see the West as a haven for Christians and Russia as their persecutor. But it was not always so. Anabaptist ancestors were banished from Europe and found refuge in a then Christian friendly safe haven of Russia in the 19th Century, where they lived until the Soviets threatened their way of life in the 1920s.

http://www.ualberta.ca/~german/PAA/Mennonites.htm

Russia is now clearly a friend of Christians, especially of the Eastern Orthodox persuasion, and the West has become their enemy. The Soviet communists were their enemies, but the atheistic-socialist ideology that once held the Soviet people in bondage has now taken over the West.

The last shall be first and the first shall be last.

19 December 2013 at 12:39  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

it is perhaps only a matter of time before we begin to taste some of this ‘organised persecution’ ourselves

If sermons given in England’s mosques are any guide, not to mention the books and DVDs lapped up by the faithful, persecution is a certainty.

● ‘Kafir is the worst word that can ever be written, a sign of infidelity, disbelief, filth, a sign of dirt.’
● ‘God help us in our fight against the kafir, in every field, in every department of life. We beg you to help us fight against the enemies of our religion.’
● ‘The time is fast approaching where the tables are going to turn and the Muslims are going to be in the position of being uppermost in strength and, when that happens, people won’t get killed—unjustly.’

It’s important to stress that persecution of non-Muslims is not an aberration of Islam but a core doctrine. The thinking behind it is that, of all Creation, the infidel is uniquely wicked because he rejects Allah. Hence the Qur’an’s description of the infidel as ‘the vilest of all creatures.’ Add to that divine message an intensity of belief quite unlike anything we’re used to and be profoundly concerned for future generations.

bluedog (11:40) makes a good point about the Prince of Wales having done his best to find good in Islam; his words of this week carry all the more weight because of it. For speed readers or those with time to spare, his 1993 speech on ‘Islam and the West’ is here. One sentence the Prince may now regret reads: ‘Islam can teach us today a way of understanding and living in the world which Christianity itself is poorer for having lost.’

19 December 2013 at 12:42  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Naomi King,

It's strange the way that Russia, long reviled by the west, is proving to be a champion of Christianity, but it is, as indeed you say. My recent tour of european indicated that to me.

Maybe having tasted deep persecution they have now turned in exactly the opposite direction, not that they are angels of course, but none of us are. But if I had to choose where to live, between the ME countries , with the exception of Israel, or Russia I'd be getting my snow boots polished.

19 December 2013 at 12:50  
Blogger David Hussell said...

The Explorer,

Thank you for the thoughtful responses. I was posing questions rather than giving pat answers.

19 December 2013 at 12:51  
Blogger David Grey said...

I am interested to know on what basis the Archbishop can contest the veracity of the Islamist claim?

On what basis is the Islamist making the 'wrong' interpretation of his holy text?

19 December 2013 at 13:17  
Blogger Guy Jones said...

Naomi, I do not find it strange that Russia is seen as a light at this time. No other Christian nation has suffered so much as Russia. For all of their brutal history there are clearly a people set apart for God's plan. Russia has been reconnected with its faith and will not be moved by any force on this planet.

19 December 2013 at 14:08  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Naomi King at 12:39

Does it seem strange that Christians are turning to Russia for help even as the West supplies their enemies with arms?

Oddly enough, no, it doesn't. Valdimir Putin is now on the same side as Prince Charles, against David Cameron and Al Qaeda on the other. Who'd a thunk it.

19 December 2013 at 14:56  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Against all precedent, I suddenly find myself in full agreement with both Len @ 11.03 and Corrigan @ 11.27.

Can this be the same Len who believes that “Pope Frances” is a woman?

Can this be the same Corrigan who is so keen to see the “Zionists” ethnically cleansed by the same forces that are now exterminating Christians?

19 December 2013 at 15:21  
Blogger Len said...

Same' Len' spelling not my strongest point.

19 December 2013 at 15:22  
Blogger David Hussell said...

On the Russia, champion of Christians point, a half remembered point has just popped into my "recall" memory box. In some rather mystical way, early 'Czars" saw themselves as spiritual successors to "Caesar" as in, the Christian Emperors of the Eastern half of the Empire.

I recall, vaguely, that the line runs something like, after the fall of Constantinople, to Islam, Russia saw the centre of gravity for "free" Christendom move to Russia which then became the northern and new centre of eastern Orthodox Christianity, which is not unreasonable I suppose ? I can't remember where I collected that link.

So if I'm right Putin may be drawing on their spiritual/historical traditions, in positioning himself, Russia and its role vis a vis the now distinctly post-Christian, "progressive" west.

Guy Jones @14.08 said, "they are clearly a people set apart for God's plan", which in this context has a certain value about it.

19 December 2013 at 16:05  
Blogger David Hussell said...

And I have forgotten, very remiss of me, to say thank you to The Prince of Wales for his courageous and realistic speech. He demonstrates, once again, the value of a (future) Head of State, being above politics, and thus able to connect directly with the people.

God Save the Prince of Wales ! The Principality and all your four nations appreciate your wisdom and human concerns, speaking out for the deeply persecuted of many lands.

19 December 2013 at 16:13  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Article: "the Wahhabi-Salafist school"

That does seem to be the main problem. I'd be quite happy to oppose it, including at the level of the State, like we did with the spread of communism.

19 December 2013 at 17:54  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Happy Jack asks why no one is listening and why this isn't on television? We keep hearing about all the "rights" of others but not Christians.

Jack sees that Justin Welby has asked the government to do something after all the reports of killing. Even pope Francis gets heard when he talks about some things more popular and even gets awards for but is ignored over Christians being killed. Why?

Jack says these extremist Muslims want Christians to convert and pay or die. They can't be reasoned with. They think it is their duty to persecute Christians.

Prince Charles has tried and says the trouble is going on because his efforts to stop the killing are "being deliberately destroyed by those with a vested interest in doing so." Yet no one says who in public and they all know its the Wahhabi-Salafist Muslims and Saudi Arabia too and they're buying their way into Britain too.

19 December 2013 at 19:02  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...


Islam declared itself to be at war with any non-muslims from the outset.

The Koran is the root source
of most of the so called ‘terrorist’ atrocities; the radicalising of shit thick mentalities of jihadis and suicide bombers; the genocide of todays Christians and Jews in the Middle East since the 6thCentury. It is not a religion – it is deified authority to murder, rape and extortion.

It is not being mis-interpreted.

It is the greatest threat to world peace since World War Two. It has no place anywhere in the West.


The Koran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, they - are NOT enacted upon.

The verses of violence in the Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Koran.

The context of violent passages is more ambiguous than might be expected of a perfect book from a loving God, however this can work both ways. Most of today's Muslims exercise a personal choice to interpret their holy book's call to arms according to their own moral preconceptions about justifiable violence. Apologists cater to their preferences with tenuous arguments that gloss over historical fact and generally do not stand up to scrutiny. Still, it is important to note that the problem is not bad people, but bad ideology.

Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they, either - accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. Muhammad's own martial legacy - and that of his companions - along with the remarkable stress on violence found in the Koran have produced a trail of blood and tears across world history.

There is no place for turning the other cheek or loving they nieghbour as thyself in relation to Islam – that is for idiots and dhimmis.

If this embedded call to violence was not acceptable to the majority of non-violent muslims, one would have expected them protesting on the streets in their millions all over the world - but they don't.

19 December 2013 at 19:04  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...



I say ! This is encouraging stuff from His Royal Highness. Well done Sir ! Jolly good show.

Having grasped the problem, he must now present it to the muslim community in Britain. Those fellows have been rather quiet about the behaviour of their co-religionists, well, everywhere really, and it must be noted they’ve been like this since they arrived here in their vast numbers. It’s damn well not good enough, you know. Not a blasted squeak from them, just cases of their children going abroad to fight for the Islamic cause.

Come on Warsi. Assuming you are not a token nonentity occupying a somewhat useless position, get right in behind the man. Say something woman !

Meanwhile, the British government should be arming Assad so he can crush the muslim uprising in Syria quicker. Drones and poison gas to cull the vermin in their strongholds, what !



19 December 2013 at 19:19  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

‘Political Islam’ is an undoubted expression of Islam

Political Islam is also the truest expression of Islam, blossoming as it does from the living word of Allah. The apostate Wafa Sultan, born in Syria and now living in the United States, avers that Islam is total politics:

   Westerners ‘don’t want to judge anybody based on their [religion],’ Sultan said, ‘[But] Islam is not a religion. Islam is a very dangerous political ideology … There is no such thing as radical Islam and regular Islam or spiritual Islam ... There is only one Islam.’

We’ll be making progress when Western politicians can make the same point without being called ghastly pieces of filth, Cameron’s description of Nick Griffin. I hope next year’s Euros will see quite a few ghastly pieces of filth elected. Realistically, they’re Christianity’s only hope.

19 December 2013 at 19:34  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

I still think you are all deluded loonies, not much different (certainly not when an historical perspective is used) from "the muslims" - who are as divided amongst themselves as the christians.
However, harmless loonies should be left alone in their harmlessness, and the wanton persecution of any religious sect by any other is something that should be stopped.
Right NOW.


I shall certainly be interested to see if the mealy-mouthed liar, Warsi deigns to reply to Prince Charles' strictures, or pretends it hasn't happened.
Would Charles be within his constitutional rights to address a question to Warsi directly?
Could be interesting.

19 December 2013 at 19:38  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Ah, the return of the man of wrath, Gregory !

Can we take it you are henceforth a voluntary day patient now ?

19 December 2013 at 19:47  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Uncle Brian,

There should be no paradox in distrusting BOTH the Israelis and Islamists. The Zionists have very successfully passed themselves off with the west as "my enemy's enemy", but my enemy's enemy is not necessarily my friend. Dealing with them is like asking a prostitute for a hug - however good it might feel, you still gotta pay.

19 December 2013 at 20:01  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Not only does the Quran advocate killing the Kufars, but it even says their souls have to suffer in the after life as if going to hell wasn't enough To ensure they cry out in ever constant pain they bash the head of the dead body in with a hammer! What a sadistic, evil ideology Islam is.


155 hadith found in 'Funerals (Al-Janaaiz)' of Sahih Bukhari.
422

Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "When a human being is laid in his grave and his companions return and he even hears their foot steps, two angels come to him and make him sit and ask him: What did you use to say about this man, Muhammad ? He will say: I testify that he is Allah's slave and His Apostle. Then it will be said to him, 'Look at your place in the Hell-Fire. Allah has given you a place in Paradise instead of it.' " The Prophet added, "The dead person will see both his places. But a non-believer or a hypocrite will say to the angels, 'I do not know, but I used to say what the people used to say! It will be said to him, 'Neither did you know nor did you take the guidance (by reciting the Quran).' Then he will be hit with an iron hammer between his two ears, and he will cry and that cry will be heard by whatever approaches him except human beings and jinns."

19 December 2013 at 20:58  
Blogger The Explorer said...

G Tingey @ 19:38

Please could you explain a bit more about the historical perspective, and how it is that you possess a vantage point denied to the rest of us.

19 December 2013 at 21:40  
Blogger Elwin Daniels said...

God is being very fair with the West. He is showing us what will happen as a direct consequence of our urinating on the blessed Gospel of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Escape may still be possible.

The country is being run by people as deluded as Jane Cobb.

I Look forward to hearing Warsi's comments on todays conviction of Lee Rigby's killers. They say they did it for Allah. What does she think?

19 December 2013 at 21:42  
Blogger The Explorer said...

I do hope G Tingey gets back to us and explains his points in more detail.

On other threads he's been a bit like a hit-and-driver: making an impact worth investigation, but then speeding off elsewhere. It's a shame.

19 December 2013 at 22:03  
Blogger The Explorer said...

add 'run' to that.

19 December 2013 at 22:04  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

Coercion, intimidation, thuggery and outright terrorism are intrinsic and essential features of Islam.

Islam is so intellectually moribund and ethically repulsive that it cannot compete for followers in a free marketplace of ideas, but must eliminate all its competitors by whatever means may be necessary, preferably involving maximum brutality.

It isn't just Christians and Jews who are being attacked. Buddhists throughout Asia are also being targeted by Muslims, as they have been for more than a thousand years.

19 December 2013 at 22:15  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Afraid I've other stuff to do. That's the trouble with a blog; you can't always hang around waiting. The great thing about DanJ0: he always gets back to you.

If G Tingey does respond to elucidate his view of history please, anyone else, feel free to respond. Otherwise, I'll take him up on it tomorrow.

Good night, All.

19 December 2013 at 22:36  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
I agree with David @ 16.05 and note the fall of Constantinople to Istanbul.
Imagine Westminster Abbey as The Grand Mosque of West London.

19 December 2013 at 23:18  
Blogger dfordoom said...

Prince Charles has been part of the problem for so long that I'm sceptical as to whether he is now capable of being part of the solution. He's a natural appeaser. Islam interprets bridge-building, quite correctly, as cowardice.

Blessed are the peace-makers sounds nice but there's precious little in human history to suggest that peace-makers have ever done anything but harm.

The only thing Islam understands is fear. In the days when Islam was afraid of the West we had very few problems with them. Now that they know we are afraid of them our future is extremely bleak.

20 December 2013 at 06:35  
Blogger The Explorer said...

dfordom @ 06:35

Did Christ rise from the dead? Such a naïve question. We must avoid such crude literalism. It may mean Christ is existentially arisen for us when we consider the inspiration of his life...

Does "Smite the unbelievers on their necks" mean what it says? Such a naïve question. We must avoid such crude literalism. It may mean a struggle against oneself on the path towards peace...

When this sort of mindset admits there is something to fear, then maybe we can get somewhere, but it has had a long history of avoiding the uncomfortable.

I fear we have a long way to go yet before it will confront the possibility of literalism.

20 December 2013 at 07:45  
Blogger David Hussell said...

dfordoom @ 6.35

"there's precious little in human history to suggest that peacemakers have ever done anything other but harm"

I doubt whether it's that simple. The best way to create peace is to be strong, in all senses and in all ways, and to demonstrate that one is ready, willing and able to wage war, to defend ones position and, if necessary, to invade.
But the strategic intention should be to do all this in order to secure a just and lasting peace. Setting out to make war for the sheer sake of conquest, for its own sake, for power over others is wrong.

Appeasers only cause further appeasement and retreat. It is the right headed and bold, but also well prepared and well intentioned, that bring about justice. This applies across a wide field of human life I believe.

20 December 2013 at 08:07  
Blogger David Hussell said...

I shall be traveling all day today, so like The Explorer said @ 22.36, if anyone wants to take up responses to dfordoom, feel free to do so.

20 December 2013 at 08:11  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Hitler was a bad man is a matter of opinion. Therefore, everything is a matter of opinion. Therefore, it is a matter of opinion whether Hitler was an Austrian. Or a man. That, essentially, is how the modern mind works.

Plucking out your right eye is metaphor. Therefore, Christ rose from the dead is metaphor. Therefore, all the 109 verses of violence (Dreadnaught 19:04) are simply harmless platitudes.

Perhaps the mindset is finally changing?

This is not the end of this particular phase of relativism. But it may be the beginning of the end.

20 December 2013 at 08:25  
Blogger David Grey said...

Dreadnaught

Exactly.

And I see noone responded to my earlier questions.

You make a valid point regarding the violence in the Old Testament not being acted upon. It begs the question, why isnt it?

I mean, it's god's word isnt it?

The point you make is correct, the problem lies in the theology. It is Islam that is the problem.

Most of you here are Christians, not muslims. If we are to accept that this is so not just because of geography (which is obviously laughable and you know it. 99% of you will have blindly followed what you were told at birth and not even considered other religions. If you lot were born in the middle east you'd be suckered in by that particular religion of choice) then on what basis do you reject Islam and favour Christianity?
The only way to stop Islamist terrorism is to discredit the Islamist text. This isnt difficult - just like the Bible, there is not a shred of evidence that any of it is even remotely true.

You christians criticising Islamists are hypocrites. How can
you criticise them for following their 'holy' text that they have as much faith in as you when you follow a religious text of equal nonsense.

I repeat my earlier question to Christians: On what basis do you contest the veracity of the Islamist claim?

20 December 2013 at 09:06  
Blogger The Explorer said...

David Grey @ 09:06

I'm afraid I misunderstood your question at 13:17.

1. I thought it was addressed specifically to His Grace, not to the rest of us.

2. I thought it was about division within Islam (which there is) about whether to interpret violent suras literally or metaphorically.

Can't deal with 09:06 issues right now, but will do so later in the morning. Some very valid points there for consideration.

20 December 2013 at 09:40  
Blogger Len said...

David Grey.

Are we Christian merely so because we were indoctrinated into Christianity as part of our culture?.
Some might be so but many are not.

I cannot speak for everyone but I can speak for myself.I was brought up as a Christian by a Christian mother and was christened and confirmed.I did this because it pleased my Mother.

But...I later rejected Christianity because I reasoned that God could not possibly exist and told my mother so and had endless arguments with her regarding her faith.

I explored many different religions seeking truth but none' rang true' to me.

It was during this 'seeking the truth' period that I had an encounter with the risen Christ which quite frankly 'blew me away'.

I now know the Truth about Christ and Christianity.I cannot prove Christ to anyone but I know what happened to me turned my life upside down and I will never be the same again.

Some might claim that what happened to me was a hallucination or some sort of psychological delusion but I know the truth about what happened.
Becoming a 'proper' Christian has not been easy and there have been many ups and downs but the my life has been changed spiritually from within.
What was dead within my spirit became alive is the only way I have to describe the experience and there is a certain 'knowing' about Christ within me which I didn`t have before.



20 December 2013 at 11:06  
Blogger Len said...

David Grey
If we look at some of the old Testament Laws we see that they were quite harsh.Stoning executions etc .
But then we look at the New testament Laws we see the opposite -Love.

So what changed ?. Did God change?
The simple answer to that is no!.

The old Testament law was to keep evil in check until Christ was in this World.If evil was not kept in check humanity would have destroyed itself before Christ was able to come into this World.

So evil was judged at Calvary and God was able to deal with people with Grace instead of Judgement.

Now with Islam all they have is the Law. Sharia Law.

There is no saviour in Islam.There is no redemption in Islam only Judgement.There is no certainty in Islam of going to paradise only if you kill in the name of Allah.
So the christian God and the Islamic 'Allah 'are two entirely different spiritual beings.


20 December 2013 at 11:20  
Blogger bluedog said...

David Grey @ 09.06 declares, '99% of you will have blindly followed what you were told at birth and not even considered other religions.' Not so. This communicant was a Jedi Knight until the batteries went flat in his light sabre. But seriously, Christianity is the moral under-pinning of the most successful society in the history of mankind, and has been so for 2000 years. It takes remarkable arrogance, or stupidity, if not both, to deny that civilizational achievement, and to believe that within one's own lifetime it is possible to create or discover something better.

All those atheists on His Grace's website; the principal function of their presence is to keep their spirits up. A bit like the man falling from the top of a skyscraper who keeps calling out, 'Okay so far' as the pavement gets ever closer. Tingey at least can work out his rate of acceleration.

20 December 2013 at 11:27  
Blogger The Explorer said...

David Grey @ 09:06

Some good work done in my absence, but here goes.

1. OT violence. There were covenants (eg Noahide). Instructions relate to a particular race at a particular time for a particular situation. Christians believe the New Covenant superseded all that. (It's like Ch 4 of a crime novel. Superseded by the ending, but you need Ch 4 to understand how the ending came about.) The Islamic call to violence is, by contrast, open ended.

2, The point about geography is a good one. It certainly explains why cultural Christianity went down so spectacularly before the onslaught of cultural Marxism. But it doesn't account for Len, or bluedog, or Blofeld, or Happy Jack, or me (and lots of others on this site|): who all came to faith by quite another route.

3. The Bible can exist without the Koran (and did), but not the other way round. The derivative nature is apparent. It's not for nothing that Dante placed Mohammed among the schismatics.

4. The Resurrection (by which Christianity stands or falls) is a big difference between the two faiths. (Islam doesn't have it). The historical probability is much greater than you assert. I can refer you to books if you want them.

5. Telling a Muslim his sacred text is nonsense is less easy than you suggest. a) He (I say 'he') might kill you. b) He might laugh at you. Of course you'd say that: you're an infidel.

20 December 2013 at 12:27  
Blogger Preacher said...

Well done Charles.
Having seen what currently passes as Christianity in the Western nations I fear for our future.

Midst the trees, lights & baubles, not forgetting the booze, turkey & other ephemera. The gospel has been submerged under a tsunami of commercial falsehood that is a powerless excuse for the incarnation of Almighty God in Jesus Christ & His mission of salvation for us.
His Church is, or should be filled with Holy Spirit power for the job He entrusted to her.
The Fear & Awe of God's power as seen in the book of Acts is the answer to Islam, & to those who feel free to liken Holy scripture to a book of fairy tales. But we need to be ready to live & die for what we know to be true, just as the first apostles did, & of course Latimer, Cranmer, Ridley & a host of others past & indeed present.

I share the experiences of Bluedog & Len, plus many others who have known God's touch upon their lives & the difference it makes by the freedom He gives.
I feel sorry for the David Greys & others, who deceive themselves daily with the myths & fables that they want to believe, because they fear the truth of turning & loving the God who died to save them from facing His justice. But that is their choice & if they are happy in their delusion, what more can one say?.

20 December 2013 at 13:23  
Blogger David Grey said...

I can't take seriously any argument against my geography point when religious attitudes are so polarised the entire world over. Religion is inherited. I will qualify it with saying 'on the whole' just to satisfy you few who are convinced you made your own free choice. Pah.

I still see no attempt from Len for instance to explain why he discounted islam as the true religion. His account is all very vague and unconvincing.

I see no point in getting into a religious debate with you guys here. You've made your minds up and abandoned reason and logic. Fine.

And Explorer, so has the Islamist. Accordingly I agree there is little point in directing such discredit solely directly to them.

Instead we need to widely discredit Islam as a baseless ideology so moderates and people on the fence may be encouraged to think and understand the possibility that they may have been brainwashed. i can see some of you thinking - yeah but thats your opinion. True. But it is also the logical, reasonable and factual position. In addition Christians, this is also YOUR opinion.. since this is why you are a Christian. We are on the same team here.

In the same way that religions target children for 'indoctrination', the next generation must be taught critical thinking and taught religion in a factual way that says: "There is no evidence for a god. Nevertheless some people have faith that there is one. Religion has done some good. Religion has done some evil. etc"

This can only be brought about by a secular society and of course abolition of those divisory faith schools.

In short, the only way to eradicate islamist violence is to embrace secularism and to teach the truth about Islam - it is an entirely baseless ideology.

20 December 2013 at 13:40  
Blogger Len said...

David Grey,

The authenticity of Christianity can be verified [also] by Bible Prophesy.

The Koran is a jumble of disconnected verses which do not hang together.

IF you are really interested in the truth it would be relatively easy to find .


20 December 2013 at 14:58  
Blogger Len said...

The Written Word of God is confirmed by the Spirit of God to those who seek the truth.The Living Word (Jesus Christ) presented this truth to man.

John 8: 17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

John 3: 33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

1 cor 1: 6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

Rev 1: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

2 Tim 3: 15-17 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

It is the work of the Holy Spirit to convince us by both his word and his spirit that this testimony is true.
We must start seeking God in a spirit of honesty seeking truth and the truth (about God) WILL be revealed.

20 December 2013 at 15:18  
Blogger The Explorer said...

David @ 13:40

1. The 'Pah' that ends your first paragraph seems rather judgemental. Do you know enough about our individual experiences/joys/tragedies to be able to say?

2. I disagree with your final paragraph. From Poitiers to Vienna, Christianity resisted Islam. It was Secularism ( the multicultural theorists, and the Andrew Neathers) that imported Islam into Europe without doing its homework.

3. You, at least, have moved on from the agenda of we must destroy Christianity; let's use Islam to help us. Now it's we must destroy Islam, let's use... (And then, presumably, do for Christianity as well.)

4. I disagree that there is no evidence for God. I agree that there is no CONCLUSIVE evidence. Not yet. There is, however, still the question of the Resurrection...

5. A query from your third paragraph. Are you drawing a causal connection between making a decision and abandoning reason and logic? Why shouldn't reason and logic precede a decision, and sustain it?

20 December 2013 at 15:30  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

David Grey,

'In short, the only way to eradicate islamist violence is to embrace secularism and to teach the truth about Islam - it is an entirely baseless ideology.'

Good luck with achieving that, I look forward to you persuading Iran and Saudi Arabia with your reason and logic.

20 December 2013 at 15:53  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

David Grey,

Forgot to add that the problem I have with your argument is that to me-I apologize if this isn't your position- you are trying to blend and throw in all religions as one scary menace to society and suggest that they are the same category as the Taliban or Al Queada and the only way to deal with this is a 'secular state' .

There is a difference between the run of the mill religious person who just wants to bring up their children to practice their particular faith and to be positive members of society, than it is to bring them up, say, to be a suicide bomber.

To my mind if people want to stick to the Five pillars of Islam, abide by 613 Mitzvot, go to Mass every day or to seek your Karma,let them alone, providing there isn't any mischief or violence going on.

As for Islamist violence/terrorism. The only way to deal with that is to crush it, full stop. Reasoned argument and rational thought just won't work for people who fly planes into buildings, commit suicide bombing, fire rockets into people's homes and blow up buses and tube stations, a few examples of the acts of terrorism 'the west' has had to be subject to for the past decade. Bush called this 'the war on terror' for a reason.

Shalom, David.

20 December 2013 at 16:21  
Blogger The Explorer said...

David K:

I think what David G (let's bring in David B to really add to the fun) is highlighting is a problem about Diversity theory.

Hitherto, all religions have been equally true (ie equally UNtrue). But now we know - forget true or not, forget equality - that some are more DANGEROUS than others.

But while we say that they must all be given equal status (the multi-faith dream) then that allows in the lethal, under the cover of the harmless.

The solution is to ban the lot of them. It's what I call the steroid solution: it kills the dangerous bacteria at the price of also killing the benign.

It's like the solution for the Cathars in Beziers. Kill the Cathars. But which ones are the Cathars? All right, kill everybody. That'll dispose of the Cathars. As for the others, God will recognise his own.

That, metaphorically speaking, is where Secularism is now headed. (Minus the God bit). Or so it seems to me.

But if militant Islam is no longer an automatic ally on the war on Christianity... Well, that has to be progress.

20 December 2013 at 17:03  
Blogger Louise Kavanagh said...

David Grey asks why Christians can discount Islam as a 'true' religion.

This begs the question,which Islamic majority state would you to live in DG? Any? None? I thought not. As a woman, I cannot think of any either. As for Christian cultural countries-I quite like the UK. And Belgium. And France, Ireland, America, Canada, New Zealand. Even Germany. The list is long.

The spiritual- for me profound- answer is from a hymn based upon Psalm 42 :"You're my friend and You are my brother, even though You are a king".

BTW- If I had to live anywhere in the middle east it would be Israel .Jerusalem is apparently very 'Christmassy' at the moment [doubt you'd get ANY celebration of Christianity under 'The Islamic State of Palestine'], or at least according to my Orthodox Jewish cousin, but then I personally believe that we both worship the same God, which isn't 'Allah'.

20 December 2013 at 18:29  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Louise:

Your last sentence there captures my own beliefs exactly.

I also believe there are others who know the same God we do, without yet knowing that they do.

20 December 2013 at 18:48  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

@ David Grey.

I so hope you are not the singer!

The thing is that some of us believe that it is you who has been brainwashed into atheistic secularism.

You see I think as a young boy you knew mystery, and as Traherne posits, eternity and endlessness seemed natural to you too. But then you learnt limits, the limited this the limited that, timed this, timed that, all boxed up and measured. My dog knows instinctively which people to trust and which not to, but have you retained or lost that faculty?

And where do you go with Koestler's observation that we are endowed with brains vastly more oversophisticated than those necessary for survival and breeding?

20 December 2013 at 20:10  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Lucy, Happy Jack points out its not 'brainwashing' but refusal to accept the grace to turn to God. Who knows, it may not even have been offered yet and when it is David may turn to God.

Jack sometimes wonders if the culture we live in makes it harder to respond to grace but then remembers God is God and he has his ways and means.

21 December 2013 at 00:27  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

With HG's permission: HRH's views on the situation are spelled out in the most clarity by the man this government banned from entering this country, citing his presence would not be conducive to the common good (or words to that effect). Obviously this is euphemism for giving Muslims the right to feel offended and commit to more violence.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/12/video-robert-spencer-on-why-christians-are-persecuted-in-the-middle-east.html

21 December 2013 at 09:58  

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