Tuesday, February 04, 2014

European union and the true face of xenophobia

Yesterday, the irrepressible Roundhead Douglas Carswell wrote that being a member of the European Union undermines the rationale for voting Conservative. "More and more Conservatives are starting to realise that we simply cannot achieve the kind of changes that we want and remain members of the European Union on current terms," he wrote. From trade to immigration; from energy to defence - and even the functioning of democracy itself - everything must comply with EU regulations and diktats, over which the proclamations of our once-hallowed Parliament have about as much political influence and binding force as a copy of The BeanoKeith Vaz).

And so "more and more Conservatives have begun to wake up to (the EU's) implications", Mr Carswell says. And this revelation coincides with a poll on ConservativeHome which suggests that Daniel Hannan MEP is the favourite (of Conservative Party members) to be the UK's next EU Commissioner, with John Redwood coming a very creditable second. As Paul Goodman notes: "The members are to the right of party centre... Between them, Hannan and Redwood took over half the vote."

Highly entertaining, but we know that the Conservative Party elite no longer listens to its members.

Lord Deben (formerly John Selwyn Gummer MP) is of the view that those Conservatives who want to exit the EU are simply "xenophobes". Proper Tories, he avers, are naturally pro-EU, "don't deny climate change, (and) can distinguish populism from politics".

Just like his politically enlightened and moderate friend Tim Yeo.

Meanwhile, the Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby is surveying the horrific atrocities in South Sudan. Yesterday, he prayed at a mass grave awaiting the burial of church-workers recently murdered in the ongoing conflict. Half a million people there have been displaced; houses are burned; cars are wrecked and bodies litter the streets. The Archbishop tweeted that this is "a place of evil deeds". He said: "What we saw today in Bor was truly devastating. The truth must be established, the victims recognised and the suffering acknowledged."

You see, torture, murder and genocide are the authentically evil consequences of actual extremism and absolute xenophobia. But according to Germany Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier, it is extremist eurosceptic groups like Ukip which are the real threat to our peace and security. Like Lord Deben says of eurosceptic Conservatives, Herr Steinmeier believes that those who want to leave the EU are the real fanatics, extremists and xenophobes.

The Archbishop of Canterbury, along with the destitute and traumatised millions across the Sudan, Rwanda and the Democratic Republic of the Congo - suffering malaria, dysentery, pneumonia and malnutrition - must find it impossible to grasp what on earth Herr Steinmeier and Lord Deben are blathering on about.


Blogger Nicodemus said...

I was wondering what on earth Herr Steinmeier was blathering on about as well.

Is he threatened that an independent UK would be aggressive? Really?

Or is he making a veiled threat?

What is he blathering on about?

4 February 2014 at 12:10  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

It is interesting that the sin of murder is condemned by Welby without question and it seems the sin of homosexuality is open for discussion.

Imagine the outcry if Welby commissioned a report which stated that murder and genocide are actually grey areas for the church and castigated Anglicans in Africa that condemned murder and genocide as been totally unacceptable behaviour for a Christian and deserve punishment.

Then again perhaps there would not be an outcry.....


4 February 2014 at 12:32  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

"The truth must be established, the victims recognised and the suffering acknowledged. Establishing the truth has to be the first step towards reconciliation. We are called to tell the truth in love"

The truth about Africa and poverty

Nobody (in their right minds) will invest in much of it, for the medium or long term.


4 February 2014 at 12:51  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Excellent short article Your Grace. Thank you.

A few Germans may be, as a result of their history, obsessed with the "europe at war with itself again scenario", which is totally incredible, and very, very unlikely. And to support that obsession we are being asked to be destroyed as an independent, free thinking, self governing country ? Now I am more than happy to be part of a mutual defense league, it's called NATO, which keeps all our guns pointing in the same direction, and not at each other. But we don't need the remote, wretched anti-democratic EU to do that, despite what a few eccentric people in parts of the political elite say.

I was born as a free Brit, ruled by the Common Law. Like many I was duped by that liar Edward Heath into voting for the trap he set us all, and I want out asap. We need our own Common Law back, passed by MPs in Westminster, that we vote for, as we can vote them in or out. I sincerely hope that I can die as a free British subject and not a euro-serf. The sooner the political elite realize that there will always be many in this country who will never accept foreign domination the better.

Whether it is the Synod of Whitby or the tricks of the EU, as it has morped into, I with many others reject foreign interference and want out. We have our own legal and cultural traditions that reflect our beliefs, grown in these islands, and exported successfully all over the globe. Cooperation, trade and friendship yes, but domination never !
Vote Ukip I say.

4 February 2014 at 12:59  
Blogger Busy Mum said...

Phil @ 12.32
Totally agree. The minute the Gold Standard of Biblical morality was abandoned, there was logically going to be a downward slide into amorality. Children are already told through PSHE lessons that neither moral nor immoral absolutes are desirable and they have to find their own comfortable place on the grey line between. Not a single teacher has been able to define immoral absolutes for me.

David H @ 12.59.
Also agree - unfortunately, history is taught so selectively nowadays that very few children (and young teachers) fully understand the concept of a free Brit, yet alone believe they have a heritage to be proud of, and they struggle to grasp the idea that government is their servant, not their master.

4 February 2014 at 13:25  
Blogger Owl said...

Excellent article YG.

Now what is the word for reacting severly against complete idiots living in a parallel dimension and sitting in the House of Lords.

I think it must be xenophobic as there is is very little about John Gummer that suggests he is a Brit. A mindless twat yes, a Brit no.

Steinmeier I can understand.

As a German socialist, he feels complelled to keep the money rolling in. I mean, that's what we serfs are for.

4 February 2014 at 14:01  
Blogger Gnostic said...

Pointing at dissenters while screaming "raaaaacist!" doesn't work and never has.

But then, what do you expect from such low grade, entire hand in the AGW pie (but no conflict of interest, honest) politicians such as Deben and Yeo?

4 February 2014 at 14:32  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

This post is something of a non sequitor. It seems to want to set what is happening in Sudan in opposition to the statements of the German Foreign Minister as if the former renders the later contemptible. I don't see any necessary connection between the two threads of this argument.

There is a particular species of Eurocrat that thinks the nations of Europe must be submerged to establish peace in Europe. Personally I think that is a utopian fantasy - or perhaps a bureaucrat's wet dream. The attempt is likely to produce the opposite result. But the situation in Sudan says nothing one way or the other about this argument.

"Look at all the atrocities in Sudan" does not refute the Eurocrat's argument.


4 February 2014 at 14:33  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

Yes, yes, yes; super article.

When does it occur to Lord Deben that if he defines "real conservatives in such a way" those of us who disagree with one or more of his definitions are more likely to go in search of another party, usually UKIP. Perhaps he eat too many BSEburgers!

4 February 2014 at 14:35  
Blogger graham wood said...

The essence of the problem for Conservative party voters is that they for many years they have been entirely disenfranchised.
Their party has in effect disappeared being replaced by a mixture of strange oddities ranging from social reformers, statists, europhiles, sodomites, warmists, and the ideological 'don't knows'.
The great majority are spineless, toothless, and immature.
The only thing that unites them is their careerist ambitions and a crude tribalism as witnessed by their childish antics at PMQs.

To cap it all, they are led by a leading Europhile, the 'heir to Blair', a political opportunist, a hypocrite, and glib talker who deceives nobody.
Its nice to see Carswell's Damascene conversion to EU realism, but it will simply run into the sand unless and until he and his ilk leave their party and nail their colours to UKIP's mast.
For all of these reasons 2015 will, as Heffer reminds us, spell Tory doom.

4 February 2014 at 14:58  
Blogger Preacher said...

Hysterical threats of impending doom if we leave the 'security' of the E.U. Lies & accusations from the power hungry, self obsessed grey men who ooze self importance whilst they treat others as fools.
But we know their tricks & are not as ignorant as they suppose.

Tell a lie often enough, expand & embroider it & eventually people will start to believe it.
This has been the basis of the spin & fabrication of unethical leaders for generations, it is basically propaganda with the aim of securing their ambition to rule the World.

The pendulum that the treacherous Ted Heath started swinging with his lies has now started to return & although the swing is slow, when it's arc is complete, we will once more have the free democratic land that our ancestors bequeathed to us.

The 2015 election looms, those that thought they were untouchable are panicking, lying & scrambling for a safe haven. Our duty is to put aside preconceived support for the party line & to ensure men of high moral character & integrity are elected to lead our country for the sake of our children & grandchildren.

4 February 2014 at 15:25  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Hmmm. There are Conservatives who believe we can still be members of a trading organisation we’d like to negotiate back to, without finding ourselves a federal entity in the north west of Europe dependent on the continent for ALL our laws ?

Are there really ?

One sees it rather differently. There are Conservative businessmen who thought the future lay in a European trading organisation, come what may. And there are fewer of them by the day. They are finally waking up to the stark truth. That restrictions and red tape are strangling them, us and the rest of the EU as we slip down the world economic stakes. Add Mismanagement and Corruption, and the burden of a queue of also-ran states wanting to or having joined with standards of living which are quite dreadful and who see the EU, quite accurately, as a gravy train to dip their bread in, nay, dive into with abandon, as a source of much needed cash which their own feeble economies could never conjure, and, had this money not been gratis and instead a loan, which they could never pay back.

Great store was put in our future in the Common Market, the EEC, and now the present constricting set up, by these businessmen. It’s easy to see why - Lying politicians giving worthless assurances, and the same old message constantly drummed out without missing a beat. It’s embarrassing to admit you’ve been had over, so the businessmen now are calling it a new understanding that our future lies in WORLD trade on our own, and without European failure, meddling, mismanagement and corruption.

Fellows who wish to research further into how our EU masters are ruining us can do worse than join The Freedom Association. (TFA). A pressure group that has Britain’s interests at heart, and who wish to extract us from this neo Soviet mire before the blasted thing does what the Russian Soviet did, to wit, economically and financially collapse. It is obvious that when the inevitable happens, we need to be as far from them as we can. We are not going to avoid the fallout – we just hope that we don’t lose too much blood in the process, but we will be intact.

4 February 2014 at 18:29  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Oh yes, xenophobia. Originated in Africa, don’t you know. And as man came out of that continent to spread over the world, he brought it with him. But, as xenophobia has been around the longest in Africa itself, you would expect the natives to have it down to a polished art. You would of course be right. Xenophobia exists there at tribal level, which is rather unfortunate as African countries boundaries were drawn up without tribal consideration. Thus, in a country like Rhodesia, the tribe of the leader is most relevant. That’s why Mugabe was never going anywhere. Having favoured his tribe in government positions, there would be a lot of unhappy Shona tribes people if they were to be replaced by members of a new King’s tribe. Murderously unhappy, that would be.

Xenophobia exists in the streets of London, where the gang is the new name for the tribe. If you are black and from a different gang, well, xenophobia means you could be killed for it. We’ve seen that so many times before. But what of the white European ? It just isn’t in the psyche. It’s not there. So to speak of it being part of European culture which at all costs must be suppressed is to delude yourself. Unless of course you are a scoundrel who’s become a politician. They seem really keen on the idea, but only when their European dream is coming to an end, and they need to fight dirty to keep it going.

So let’s hear no more of xenophobia in Europe. Unless you can ally it with its natural cousin, murder - xenophobia is not what it is. It’s more likely preference that is being discussed. A preference for one’s own culture, land and way of doing things. A rather re-assuring and quite natural preference in a world of knowns and unknowns we can do little to influence these days…

4 February 2014 at 18:30  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

By the way, as an addenda to one’s earlier post. The Freedom Association now has a new position of Chief Executive and Simon Richards fills the post. An egg of the first rate, and an intelligent and coherent speaker. A sound fellow.

Perhaps those wallahs who work on BBC’s Question Time could have him on the panel at some stage…

4 February 2014 at 18:36  
Blogger IanCad said...

Lord Deben:

Was he the same guy who was force feeding his daughter during the mad cow scare?

You just can't keep a good trougher down.

4 February 2014 at 19:23  
Blogger Nick said...

" Herr Steinmeier believes that those who want to leave the EU are the real fanatics, extremists and xenophobes..."

Yes, obviously. If we left the EU we'd probably end up like ...uhm...Switzerland. As we all know the Swiss economy has collapsed and the nation sublimates its hatred and jealousy of its EU neighbours by xenophobically menaicing them with sales of chocolates and cuckoo clocks. Yes, Switzerland is the Fourth Reich and should be subjugated into joining the EU. Then the unelected oxygen-wasters in Brussels can ban the sale of cuckoo clocks on the grounds they might cause annoyance. Swiss chocolates will have to conform to EU standards of colour, shape, and sexual orientation

The Swiss, along with the rest of the world, have done very nicely without the EU.

4 February 2014 at 20:19  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

It is worth voting UKIP just to annoy these wretches.

It is also and even more vital to do what we can to see better governance in Africa. Oh, but didn't our ancestors try that once? British Empire didn't they call it? Pax Brittanica?

Never mind.

4 February 2014 at 20:31  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

.....and penknives, of which I own three?

4 February 2014 at 20:32  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Great article YG

The Germans are rattled!

UKIP European election campaign kick off speech in Chalfont St Peter. Inspiring speeches, great Q&A session afterwards.


4 February 2014 at 20:45  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

The Ukrainians who don't want to enter the EU are "xenophobes", are they? And those on the streets demanding entry to the EU? They "can distinguish populism from politics", can they?

4 February 2014 at 20:54  
Blogger skeetstar said...

The Leaders of the EU try to scare us with talk of war, and say that the EU is responsible for creating peace in Western Europe. Wonder what NATO was for ? regulation of soft fruit industry, imposition of standards for sewage treatment? Plain fact is that it is politicians who ultimately take us to war, or not.. and of course the upper echelons of the EU are stuffed with ..politicians. Anyway if the EU is a sure fire route to peace.. why all this talk about a European Army.

All this talk of war and peace is horror stories to keep froghtenede children in line.. nothing more.

4 February 2014 at 21:31  
Blogger bluedog said...

We tend to forget, Your Grace, that once there were just four powers in Europe; England, France, Russia and Austria, an empire. There were of course other countries, like Denmark, Sweden and Spain, but they were not powers. The great German speaking power in Europe was the Austrian Empire. Turkey, Austria and Russia jostled for position on the eastern fringes of Europe, and we see the echoes of that rivalry today.

So why did Austria simply disappear? The answer is not that the Austrian Empire was defeated in the Great War but that it was overwhelmed by a far greater force - nationalism. The Austrian Empire was held together by treaties, enforced by the ruthless white-coats of the Austrian army. Without respect for these treaties, Austria was nothing, and so it became as it is today, an irrelevant rump state. First Italy was lost to Austria in the 1860s, then the Prussian empire emerged as the pre-eminent German state, driven by a German nationalism ably exploited by Bismarck and quietly assisted by Prince Albert, consort to our own Queen Victoria. The implosion of the Ottoman Empire should have been a time of imperial expansion for Austria, but the Slav tribes had had enough of foreign dominion and rebelled at the prospect of remaining, or becoming, vassals of the Teutons.

Which brings us to the EU, a supranational European state held together by treaties. Sound familiar? Somehow one feels that another great cycle in the history of Europe is beginning, the re-emergence of nationalism. Your communicant is convinced that very soon the names of van Rumpuy and Barroso will be foot-notes to history, like those of innumerable Austrian Emperors and Arch-Dukes.

Britain, France and Russia may once again be destined to try and keep a German imperium in check.

4 February 2014 at 21:32  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr skeetstar @ 21.31 asks, .. why all this talk about a European Army.'

Indeed. Is the threat external or internal? You know the answer.

4 February 2014 at 21:34  
Blogger Integrity said...

Your Grace,
"Herr Steinmeier believes that those who want to leave the EU are the real fanatics, extremists and xenophobes..."
This sounds awfully familiar. Was it not the supporters of SSM that said if you opposed it you were a moron and homophobic.

4 February 2014 at 21:38  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Carl, it's not that complicated, actually. His Grace contrasted the lack of concern the EU shows for real and very deadly xenophobia, against its obsession with Britain's reluctance to go gently into the night. Btw, excuse the pedantry, but it's non sequitur, two words and with a "u" at the end; I don't imagine you were ever put in a Catholic school and suffered and managed to survive Latin grammar, as I have.

4 February 2014 at 22:14  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Happy Jack, the Ukrainian situation is entirely different. For them, mired in corruption, violence and dire poverty and under the heel of a resurgent, neo-colonist Russia, the EU means salvation. It's an entirely different matter for the UK, obviously.

4 February 2014 at 22:18  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Integrity @ 21.38, this communicant now believes that UKIP should add another pledge to its election manifesto, repeal of the political elite's SSM legislation. By all accounts UKIP is being swamped by new members from the old White working-class, so often the true conservatives of Britain. SSM is simply incomprehensible to this demographic, more so even than the EU. The bien pensant would howl in rage at such a proposal by UKIP, but that is the sort of publicity on which UKIP thrives. There is an increasing possibility that UKIP, so long derided for not returning a single member to Westminister, could astonish in 2015.

Of course the House of 'Lords' would almost certainly reject any attempt to repeal their keenly awaited opportunity for SSM. In which event UKIP should use the Parliament Act, as Cameron himself has threatened. Furthermore, UKIP should lose no time slashing the numbers of the 'Lords' to say, half those of the Commons. It is frankly obscene that these unelected placepersons are now approaching 900 head.

4 February 2014 at 22:34  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Avi, Happy Jack is not too informed about the Ukrainian situation. It seems to him being under the yoke of an all encompassing, political and economic, undemocratic, secular, EU may be a whole lot worse than maintaining a relationship with Russia.

Do Ukrainians want to exchange imposed abortion, same sex marriage, 'diversity' (i.e. intolerance for religion) for greater economic wealth? The country is being bribed by the US and EU, as well as Russia. There is now talk of a civil war.

Jack says, "Beware of Americans, Europeans and Russians bearing gifts." They have their own interests in mind, not the Ukrainians.

4 February 2014 at 22:46  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Happy Jack, the short answer to this would be yes, an apparent majority of Ukrainians would gladly exchange EU membership for freedom from Russian autocracy and its long-armed mafias. We are not talking choice between being ok and being greedy for prosperity, but dire penury and living under violent, murderous gangsters and dictators. There is no question that the poorer Eastern European countries which entered the EU are far better off than those who didn't.

You're not seriously expecting abortion laws and same sex marriage to matter much in such cases, are you? Abortion is liberal in Russia and SSM alone makes little material difference to anyone's life. As limiting as EU can make democracy, it's an improvement to what exists currently in places like Ukraine. Remember that we are dealing with levels of poverty, backwardness and violence, all without the minimal help of social programs, with sick people dying, the old and the young literally starving, with which you are unfamiliar with. These are conditions which you would need to see or God-forbid, to experience, to understand fully. Again, what's good for Ukraine, Roumania, Bulgaria and others is clearly not good for a First World, traditionally independent nation like Britain.

4 February 2014 at 23:15  
Blogger Roy said...

Phil Roberts said...

It is interesting that the sin of murder is condemned by Welby without question and it seems the sin of homosexuality is open for discussion.

What on earth has that got to do with the subject of His Grace's essay? However, since you seem to think the comparison is relevant perhaps you could answer this question.

Given a choice between a society in which murder was tolerated and one in which homosexuality was tolerated, which would you prefer?

4 February 2014 at 23:31  
Blogger Murray said...

When the leaders refuse to listen to the people, it is time for a New Model.

4 February 2014 at 23:34  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Avi, Happy Jack says then that surely is an argument in favour of the EU staying together? Richer countries can assist poorer ones being lifted out of poverty and oppression.

Are you sure you are not a Jesuit in disguise? Jack did not realise you attended a Catholic school.

4 February 2014 at 23:45  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Yes, Jack, a Catholic school in Vienna. As refugees after the Soviet occupation of Czechoslovakia we lived in a rough neihbourhood, the Meidling district, if it means anything to you, and Mom being quite the snooty bourgeois, put me in the best school possible that was affordable...in other words, free. A Catholic school in the neighbourhood was it. Part of the enrollment process included going to do up the paperwork in a very posh nunnery, where for the most of the day I was shown around by the kindly nuns. It's ironic that my first "male thoughts" were awakened by young nuns. But the mind wonders on and I digress.

Anyway, it was a strict school, but with incredible teachers who loved their material and there was another character like me, a chubby fellow by the name Rosenkranz (we went by last names). No one bothered us about religion, and we were exempt from the religious courses although I asked to be included as the option would have been to work on assignments in the library under the tyranny of Brother Johann, who liked to rap the knuckles of boys who didn't attain perfect penmanship with our fountain pens on hand-lined paper. I learned quite a few Church songs, knew the Lord's Prayer in German for many years and could keep up with my schoolmates' catechism. In retrospect, having been at quite a few schools and three universities, that school was the best of them. Life can be funny, eh?

5 February 2014 at 00:43  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


Re: non sequitur.

Hrmmm. A brief perusal of Google presents me with a conundrum. How to respond?

Strategy 1: Yeah, well, Latin is a dead language so the rules become flexible.

Strategy 2: I knew that. But the word is much more aesthetically pleasing to the eye when spelled with an 'o.'

Strategy 3: You have damaged my self esteem with your patriarchal heteronormative grammar.

Strategy 4: I'm an Engineer. We're allowed.

Strategy 5: Help! I'm being repressed!

Strategy 6: Look, is it my fault the word isn't in my spell checker?

One of those should take care of it.


5 February 2014 at 00:54  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


Whatever the EU may or may not say about Sudan, the statement of the German Foreign Minister stands on its own. You can't point to Sudan, say "Look, that is real xenophobia" and claim to have refuted his argument. That doesn't demonstrate that opposition to the EU is not a more benign form of the same thing.

You could ask "Why is he more concerned about the UKIP than the Sudan?" The answer is because he is European and the former can actually have impact on him. He fears the attitude could return Europe to the age of nationalistic wars. That's what you have to confront - and directly.


5 February 2014 at 01:03  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Btw, just for the record. I think a United States of Europe is a bureaucratic pipedream that could never be realized. Perhaps the EU should be renamed the All European Co-prosperity Zone headed up by elder brother Germany. That's a more accurate description.


5 February 2014 at 01:09  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Carl, of course the EU bureaucracy has much more to fear from UKIP than Sudan. I look at it, though, as someone who sees Israel pilloried for every minutia by European states and the EU bureaucracy as a blatant strategy to direct attention away from their own misdeeds and their weakness and unwillingness to go up against the real monsters out there. This kvetching about Britain looks very much like part of the same strategy.

5 February 2014 at 02:29  
Blogger Manfarang said...

I see you want to create England into something like the Irish Free State (with all the prosperity the latter enjoyed)

5 February 2014 at 03:05  
Blogger Ivan said...

In every European state without exception, there is a substantial proportion of the population which understands that the EU project spells the death of settled ways of life, through suffocation and ingestion by the boa constrictors in Brussels. See Thilo Sarrazin in Germany for example. So far those in opposition have been tripped up by charges of xenophobia, crude nationalism and recrudescent fascism. They are weaving around in a daze, pandering to the current nostrums and getting kicked in the groin for their troubles.

5 February 2014 at 06:31  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

00:43 Avi

It is very decent of you to acknowledge the benefits of your Catholic education.I would like to think that some of your many good traits and in particular your openness and honesty were developed and a result of those years.

Our Lord was a Jew so Jews should have a special place in a Christian's heart.

5 February 2014 at 11:35  
Blogger John Thomas said...

It is/was not an "independent UK", or Britain when it still had its own sovreignty, which is/was a threat to peace in Europe, or the world; it was rather those central European powers, who, in the 19th and 20th centuries, clearly felt a need to dominate Europe (much as they dominate it now) who are/were the threat to peace. I know nothing about this Herr Steinmeier, but from the sound of his name he comes directly from one of the really-aggressive nations. My guess (based on nothing) is that he is not entirely without intelligence, and thus in reality knows the true source of past, and possible future, agression.

5 February 2014 at 11:54  
Blogger Busy Mum said...

Roy @23.31 on 4th Feb

I take Phil R to mean that as Welby appears to be picking and choosing which bits of the Bible he follows, why shouldn't anyone else do the same?
If, by refusing to condemn homosexual behaviour, Welby is in effect saying that the Bible is no longer THE moral authority, on what principle does he decide murder is wrong? And if we do indeed just have to be our own gods and find our own comfortable place on that grey line, why shouldn't some people decide they are quite comfortable with murder?

5 February 2014 at 16:20  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...


Busy Mum has answered the first question better than I could

"Given a choice between a society in which murder was tolerated and one in which homosexuality was tolerated, which would you prefer?"

Murder of course. I can think of quite a few people to go on my list already!

It is interesting that God forgave and even blessed characters in the Bible who committed murder.

But never homosexuality.

That was always an abomination. (Still is!)


5 February 2014 at 17:18  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


But never homosexuality.

Well, except for ...

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Homosexuality is not the unforgivable sin.


5 February 2014 at 17:38  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...


I know that humour is a difficult concept for an American.

Especially the American Military.

For the record, you are quite correct.


5 February 2014 at 17:52  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...


If the NSA are evesdropping the murder comment was also a joke!


5 February 2014 at 17:56  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


Humor. Ummm ... Yes. I remember reading about that concept at one time. Perhaps I'll go over there amd just ... study on it a while. Might be enlightening.


To quote Agent 86 "Sorry about that, Chief."


5 February 2014 at 18:18  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear Carl,

"Homosexuality is not the unforgivable sin."

I couldn't agree more...the unforgivable sin is voting Labour.

Homosexuality only frightens the horses.

5 February 2014 at 20:36  

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