Thursday, April 03, 2014

Cameron is losing the Christian vote to Ukip


Unlike, say, in the United States of America, where the 'culture wars' over issues like school prayer, stem cell research, homosexuality, contraception, abortion and pornography have given rise to the 'Religious Right', there is not and has never been an identifiable 'Christian vote' in the UK. There isn't even an equivalent of the Christian Coalition of America to issue 'voter guides', engage with moral concerns or contend for religious liberty. Despite decades of left-liberal leadership, by and large those who worship in the Church of England still veer toward the Conservative Party, and those who worship in the Roman Catholic Church still tend toward Labour. At least that's what all the surveys tell us: no doubt voting intention is rather more fluid in this age of political fragmentation and religious non-affiliation.

The Christian Socialist Movement recently morphed into Christians on the Left. By dropping the historic ideological 'Socialist' tag, the movement has begun to attract Christian Liberal Democrats. Indeed, it is now so broad in its religio-sociological appeal that it could easily embrace those on the left of  the Conservative Party (they said His Grace would be welcome to join). Their aim is to give left-leaning Christians a united voice to “speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves”, and who can argue with that? The group has 1,519 Facebook 'likes' and 2.520 Twitter followers.

The Conservative Christian Fellowship maintains a resolute Conservative identity: there are no plans to segue into 'Christians on the Right', not least because, thanks to decades of soft-left media inculcation and political disinformation, 'the Right' has acquired a certain political toxicity. The CCF "seeks to build a strong, relational bridge between the (Conservative) party and the Christian community". The group has 720 Facebook 'likes' and 1,005 Twitter followers.

In social media terms, the Conservatives are doing less than half as well as the Left. In terms of national religio-political engagement, the picture is less clear, not least because no research has ever been carried out into the efficacy of their theological missions of the effectiveness of their political advocacy. Both groups periodically deliver their PowerPoint presentations to interested parties; hold their church 'question times'; engage in social action projects and host dinners or drinks receptions with Christian MPs and peers. Like party-political functions, these activities seem to keep their members happy. But neither group approaches anything like the political power of Stephen Fry (142,000 Facebook 'likes' and 6,706,345 Twitter followers).

Christians on the Left is politically latitudinal, embracing broad left ideologies; the Conservative Christian Fellowship is politically narrow, focusing solely on engagement with one party. In an emerging four-party context, it remains to be seen how long this can be sustained. Quite how many right-leaning formerly-Conservative Christians have veered off toward Ukip is unknown. But when they do defect, they are lost to the CCF.

Christians on the Right in the UK have historically never had any political home but the Conservative Party. Nigel Farage has changed that. Indeed, his simple message and authentic appeal have changed it to such an extent that Conservative Central HQ really ought to deeply concerned about their election prospects. But they aren't at all.

David Cameron is losing the Christian vote because he has ceased to understand Christian sensitivities. That is certainly the view of prominent Christians within his own party, most notably Anglican Sir Gerald Howarth and Roman Catholic Edward Leigh. There are many on the right who are worried about the plight of the poor and homeless and the rise of food-banks, but few believe that a party led by public-school-educated multi-millionaires actually understands or empathises to any degree at all. Of course they can and might, but we are dealing here with perceptions, and politics is about perceptions.

But it is also about moral purpose. And Cameron's distinctly un-conservative social revolution with the introduction of same-sex marriage has offended not only traditional Conservatives and conservative Christians, but people across all faith groups. He is seemingly indifferent to the constitutional tensions and the implications for religious liberty. Add to this his sinister liberalisation of abortion law and the introduction of three-parent babies, you move toward the point where many Christians feel they cannot in conscience vote for a party which rides roughshod over their moral concerns or labels them intolerant bigots merely for expressing their historical morally-orthodoxy belief.

By surrounding himself with secularists and advancing as infallible orthodoxy a wishy-washy liberal form of Anglicanism which, he says, "fades in and out like Magic FM in the Chilterns", David Cameron has alienated many conservative Christians whose faith means more to them than their traditional political allegiance. The Conservative Party used to be a broad church, but thousands are now flocking to the Ukip Chapel where there's a revival. CCHQ is content to excommunicate these heretics, undoubtedly holding the indifferent good-riddance view that they are misguided, swivel-eyed loons, closet racists, fruitcakes and right-wing bigots.

You may very well think that, too. But His Grace couldn't possibly comment.

101 Comments:

Blogger bluedog said...

Not so much 'broken Britain', but these days under Cameron's waning power it is more the broken Conservative Party, Your Grace.

Seismic shift is an over-used cliché, but after the second debate between Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage your communicant struggles to recall a more exciting state of affairs in British politics. Forty years of political edifice have been demolished by a nuclear bull-dozer called Farage. With the post-debate popular vote running just shy of 70%, the Coalition is staring disaster in the face. The inheritors of an elite consensus, stretching back to Harold MacMillan's early attempts to persuade his old war-time colleague De Gaulle to admit Britain to the Common Market, have just seen their patrimony shredded before their eyes. The British people have had enough, and now want something different. What the people want is clearly what UKIP offers. Lynton Crosby will be tearing his remaining hair out, the demographic swinging to UKIP is exactly the constituency he would be targeting for the Conservatives, the old white working class. UKIP's strategy is flawless.

In terms of tactics, Nigel Farage should now formally invite Ed Milliband to a debate. Milliband is of course, an even weaker opponent than Clegg, and a less likely Labour leader is hard to imagine. Even a draw with Milliband would accelerate the haemorrhage of socially conservative working-class votes to Farage.

But what Farage must not do is debate Cameron. As UKIP's momentum grows, it is essential to leave Cameron in place, twisting in the wind. The great danger for UKIP would be a back-bench revolt that overthrows Cameron and replaces him with Boris Johnson. Debating Cameron increases the risk of a Conservative back-bench revolt.

It is remarkable that the two most effective politicians in Britain both rely on a power base outside the Palace of Westminster. When Britain leaves the EU, that will change. However, one can only suggest that Farage avoids direct comparison with Johnson until the last moment possible. A clash with Johnson could result in grievous wounds.

3 April 2014 at 11:02  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Excellent piece Your Grace.

You have more less successfully described the "migration" of this traditional Christian, who happens to be Anglican, just about, to Ukip after generations of supporting the Conservatives. My allegiance to my faith comes first, then country and finally political party.

3 April 2014 at 11:03  
Blogger Len said...

Cameron no longer cares about Christians he has made this quite obvious.
Cameron is a humanist same as Obama and the same as those behind the EU..
Cameron may one day come out as a Christian same as Blair if he feels it is to his advantage to set up a 'foundation' to keep earning when he (probably fairly soon) leaves public office)

3 April 2014 at 11:14  
Blogger Rasher Bacon said...

Interesting - I've just been looking at this recently for a brief slot on how and whether Christians engage with politics. Expecting to come out far right wing swivel-eyed, I did a 'Political Compass' test as a bit of fun and found myself edging left of centre. A couple more of us in our church have done the test - one came out near Mahatma Ghandi as libertarian left, and another close to Mrs T.

The great thing is that we're in the same church and of one mind when it comes to the Gospel. I even bought a Guardian on Monday to try and break out of my self-created pigeonhole. The idea is that unity is the priority rather than football team-like group loyalty stirred into conflict by people with no interest or understanding of the what happened at the cross - of our forfeited rights or the immense price God paid for our salvation which are above politics.

I wonder where Your Grace's communicants would come out, but you may think it too crass.

3 April 2014 at 11:24  
Blogger Richard Gadsden said...

Might be worth mentioning that there is a Liberal Democrat Christian Forum - not sure if it's worth adding the comparison?

There's also Christian Fellowship of The UK Independence Party.

3 April 2014 at 12:00  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr Gadsden,

His Grace is aware of the LibDem Christian Forum, but it is minuscule in its reach, and (now) politically indistinguishable from Christians on the Left.

The Ukip Christian Fellowship is not properly organised or, indeed, traceable at all.

3 April 2014 at 12:17  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

The decline of Christianity (the Telegraph last year used the wording ‘catastrophic collapse’), together with the rise of Islam and other ethnic communities, may have persuaded Cameron and CCHQ that the Christian vote was no longer worth pursuing. Cameron’s weird dalliance with gay marriage may well have harmed the Conservatives’ chances of attracting the ethnic vote but the Conservatives are led by unprincipled opportunists who would not allow a rash commitment to equal marriage to stand between them and power…

UKIP drums home with monotonous regularity that it is not a racist party. As such, it views with equanimity the demographic changes that will eventually make minorities of the indigenous British and of Christianity. Christians who support UKIP are thus voting for their descendants to live under Muslim rule. In contrast, the BNP would encourage Muslims and other ethnics to return to their ancestral lands, and Britain would once more be the home of the British. The burden of being called a racist is, for me, considerably less than the burden of betraying future generations, and I shall be voting for Nick Griffin in May.

3 April 2014 at 12:30  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

"I wonder where Your Grace's communicants would come out, but you may think it too crass."

Ernst has already done this but found he sits nowhere...He is Mr T on a lot of things but Gaitskell on others, such as the imperative of national infrastructure remaining British and under OUR control an that all the poor homeless and disabled should not be lumped with the feckless scroungers in our midst (Centralist??).

There is no party that Ernst can appeal to along these lines (UKIP still hold that the corporate business world is smashing and can fault no wrong in them..Doubt the big six would be referred to Competition Commission if UKIP were in charge, per Roger Helmer, who spoke like a complete T*%t of the first order on QuestionTime!!)..Farage is indeed formidable as Lord Tebbit was,(but Farage is surrounded by pillocks in the party, who suffer from OCD of sticking their foot in their gobs publicly) neither are Mrs T, now are they?.

You need an imperious leader to lay out the path and stick to it.

Our Country seems and is leaderless, with no one on the horizon!!!

Blofeld

3 April 2014 at 12:33  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Oops typo alert. Should read 'Mrs T' and not Mr T (Shut up, fool!, I got no time for the jibba-jabba.) from the A Team.) but as both were tough sorts who you wouldn't mess with, it seems an obvious error to make? *Giggles*

Ernst - The jibba jabba stops here!

3 April 2014 at 12:39  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Your Grace,

Some information.

Ukip has a small but active Christian group who call themselves "Christian Soldiers". A newsletter is published, quarterly I think. A call to the HQ should reveal their whereabouts. They do not appear to be on the website. They have a table and special speakers at conferences. I believe that that excellent clear thinking Anglican bishop Michael Nazir-Ali spoke to a group recently ?

3 April 2014 at 12:41  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr Hussell,

Any political pressure group in a modern liberal democracy which has neither a website presence nor a social-media identity is really not worth inquiring into.

3 April 2014 at 12:48  
Blogger Rasher Bacon said...

Ernst - exactly. It all depends on the question. As I went through them I found meself left and right all over the place.

That indicated to me that it's not really the party I'd vote for (if I ever did), but the manifesto. Problem with that is dishonesty, and stuff that never made it into the manifesto, so trust diappears. Then I get yelled at that if I don't vote it's my fault if the country goes to pot. That always winds me up in a special way.

It feels like politics goes back to the last days of the Roman Republic - it becomes more about personal power than Patrician / Pleb representation. Boris would be good at that.

3 April 2014 at 12:49  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Rasher Bacon said...

"Then I get yelled at that if I don't vote it's my fault if the country goes to pot. That always winds me up in a special way."

Indeed, a complete quandary.

I have resolved to vote UKIP for EU elections but will reserve any judgment on GE UNTIL they convince me they are NOT just mindless right wingers (To conflate Mrs T with the right wing solely is to miss the whole point completely about her, as her enemies love to do!!!).

Ernst

3 April 2014 at 12:55  
Blogger 45minutewarning said...

Americans seem more willing than we (British) are to wear their Christian badge. We also seem less sure of our faith. It's the old British trait of understating things and trying not to offend anybody. All that will have to end unless we are willing to be totally overridden by secularism.

Perhaps we need more Christians to "come out of the closet", whatever their political leaning.

3 April 2014 at 13:09  
Blogger David Hussell said...

45minutewarning

I think that you are right. Hiding in your metaphorical closet worked when those outside it were basically supportive of a vaguely Christian approach to the questions facing the nation, but will be disastrous when we now have many that seek to put us out of business.
My exchanges, day to day, amongst the committed members of the Christian community tells me that they are now, almost all, fully aware of the trajectory of events moving against the gospel, and are working, each in their own way, to build the Church up again. However the vast mass of the vaguely Christian, "fuzzy faithful" slumber on it seems.
To rouse the slumberer, does it require a theological equivalent to Nigel Farage I ask myself. I think it does.

3 April 2014 at 13:35  
Blogger richardhj said...

I had a go at the "Political Compass" Test.
My response seeing where it placed me was that there was something wrong.

So to prove it wrong, I looked for something similar to see if that could "do any better"

As soon as I saw it, I realised what was wrong with the first one. The "Political Compass" test allowed no room for relative importance of issues. Therefore the fact that I said "abortion is always wrong except to save the life of the mother" was treated equal with all the many questions that I have now forgotten, in many cases because I didn't think that they were important at all.

Both tests suggested that I was economically slightly left, whilst the second test (allowing for what was most important) in particular suggested that I was morally right (in either sense of that phrase!).

What the second test said to me is what I have always known.

I am a social conservative. When the Conservative Party was a conservative party, that outweighed my slightly left of centre economic views. I was a member for 25 years, active, committee member, election worker (even when many others didn't), and briefly Councillor.

Now that the Conservative Party is no longer conservative, there is no reason for me to remain a member. In fact, as both these tests say, it would be nonsense for me to do so.

3 April 2014 at 13:50  
Blogger William said...

richardhj: Could you let us know where to find the second test? I, too, did the Political Compass test, and was rather surprised to find myself squeezed between François Hollande and Nelson Mandela – a position which may make sense in terms of economics, but not of many others things which I would consider more important.

3 April 2014 at 14:04  
Blogger richardhj said...

William. This is it

http://www.gotoquiz.com/politics/political-spectrum-quiz.html


3 April 2014 at 14:10  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

JR

In contrast, the BNP would encourage Muslims and other ethnics to return to their ancestral lands

You realize that is a total fantasy, correct? You don't have any means to repatriate them. There is no country that would receive them. They won't want to go. And natural increase would likely swamp any outflow you could actually manage. It's an emotional issue with which to stir voters but it can never be realized.

and I shall be voting for Nick Griffin in May

Has he managed to explain his Holocaust denial, yet?

carl

3 April 2014 at 14:33  
Blogger Roy said...

Despite decades of left-liberal leadership, by and large those who worship in the Church of England still veer toward the Conservative Party, and those who worship in the Roman Catholic Church still tend toward Labour.

Why does Your Grace ignore non-conformists? Haven't you heard of the saying that "the Labour Party owes more to Methodism than to Marxism"?

3 April 2014 at 14:47  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Your Grace

Title: Cameron is losing the Christian vote to Ukip

In line 3 we read: there is not and has never been an identifiable 'Christian vote' in the UK.

Well, Your Grace, which is it? Is there or isn’t there a Christian vote, with or without inverted commas?

Quibbling old pedant that I am, I would find Your Grace’s argument easier to follow without such distractions.

3 April 2014 at 15:24  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

I have just followed the link to the issue of 'loosening' the rules on abortion.

You don't have to be anything other than a concerned human-being to be deeply alarmed after reading of such underhanded meddling.

It is wrong morally and disingenuous to treat the nation so prescriptively as though we are nothing more than mushrooms; kept in the dark and fed bull-shit.

This particular issue is not one of Secularism, Leftisim, Liberalism, Humanism or even feminism, but one of the lack of human decency in politics and erosion of ethical medical probity.

NO one consulted any one of US: - Where are the petitions? - where is the OUTRAGE?

3 April 2014 at 16:03  
Blogger Stephen said...

Your comments about Christians on the Left are somewhat wide of the mark. The organisation is still affiliated to the Labour Party, so it does not provide a home for Christians who are politically left-wing, such as myself. (See my blog post entitled Christians on the Left? for more details).

So even if they are talking about giving "left-leaning Christians a united voice", their practice is completely at odds with their rhetoric, as their membership practices automatically imply that left-wing Christians must support the Labour Party.

----

On another note, is there any polling evidence to back up the claims that the Conservatives are losing the right-wing Christian vote to UKIP? I've seen it claimed a number of times, but haven't seen any numbers to back it up.

3 April 2014 at 16:56  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Mr E S Blofeld ..http://www.gotoquiz.com/politics/political-spectrum-quiz.html

"You are a left social authoritarian." Strewth, I knew I was messed up but FGS. What would Maggie have made of me and why did I vote for her as my preferred choice?!!!

*Huge Chortles and uncontrollable Giggles*

Blowers

3 April 2014 at 16:59  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

JR

I read the BNP manifesto last election and I thought to my surprise that it ticked a number of boxes for me

I was surprised it did so badly

Phil

3 April 2014 at 17:14  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Blowers, Happy Jack has been informed he is " ... a left moderate social authoritarian."

His scores were:
Left: 3.27,
Authoritarian: 3.13.

Not too far from the mid-point, so he is open to change and persuasion.

3 April 2014 at 17:15  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Carl


"Has he managed to explain his Holocaust denial, yet?"

I suspect that the people who vote BNP could not as they might say, "care a fuck about the Holocaust". They see that they have problems here and now, they are poor, mostly men and angry.

The BNP offers to do something that they see might benefit them.

The mainstream parties are actually scared to death that the BNP will find a Fararge.

I am too.


Phil


3 April 2014 at 17:18  
Blogger Flossie said...

'Cameron is losing the Christian vote to Ukip'

Good. He's certainly lost mine. I don't think he's a complete fool, so I can only assume that his gay marriage legislation is a deliberate attack on marriage and the family - the institution which limits the power of the state over people's lives. He is certainly no conservative.

And now there is this sinister Cinderella proposal, to further reduce parents' influence over their own children. Destroy the family, then deliver the children into the hands of the state (so they can homosexualise them unopposed, no doubt.) Mission accomplished.

A pox on all their houses!







3 April 2014 at 17:27  
Blogger Nick said...

Of course the Conservatives are losing the Christian vote and are going next door to Nigel's house while Cameron stands on his doorstep sticking two fingers up to them.

However, if he thinks he will replace his supporter base with young gays and other "progressives" he may have miscalculated. The homo-feminist/multi-culti movement doesn't need a particular party affiliation; all it needs is a lack of morality, lack of courage and lack of conviction in our politicians. Their pernicious influence is seen everywhere. It doesn't matter to them who is in power, they can sow their poison seed through subtle influence.

This is the real corrupting force that needs opposing. I don't think we can rely on any political party to wholly oppose it. It will take something outside the political sphere and with more than just electoral clout. Something that brings about fundamental changes of attitude.

3 April 2014 at 18:05  
Blogger Nick said...

Flossie

The Cinderella law is yet another ill-considered piece of legislation. When you look beyond the headline, it seems to be unworkable unless Cameron adopts the Scottish approach of appointing each child a "guardian" (aka poitical commissar") to watch over them. In that case "emotional neglect" will become synonymous with unorthodox political views like telling your kids about normal marriage and sexuality.

3 April 2014 at 18:29  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

We don’t need to vote BNP to regain our national identity. A UKIP government will revive it. With the National Identity back, we can go forth into the world ourselves and do very nicely there. And what’s more, our immigrants will once again be thankful they are living amongst us. So thankful that they will desist in their desires to turn us into them. Indeed, they will want to become more like us. (Well, that’s the plan anyway). They recognise winners on the world stage when they see them, just like everyone else.

But if we stay in the malaise we are in now, some North West province of a quasi empire comprised of mainly middling and loser countries, then we’ll continue to attract unwelcome attention from alien militants within who would see us as feasible conquest.

By the way, there’s plenty of Christianity in our National Identity, and no Islam. One is sure with that in mind, even the ever ungrateful atheists on this site would not complain…

3 April 2014 at 18:46  
Blogger Sister Tiberia said...

did the Political Compass test and came out more or less dead on top of the Dalai Lama. Something's wrong there... :)

3 April 2014 at 19:02  
Blogger John Thomas said...

"traditional Conservatives and conservative Christians" - I am increasingly noticing that orthodox/authentic - historic - Christianity and Christian ideas are being perniciously called "conservative". Now even Cranmer is doing it! Fortunately, later in this article, there is the reference to "historical morally-orthodoxy belief." No doubt Cameron/Clegg/Miliband and their ilk would like to pretend that revisionist Christianity can be passed off as some kind of "real" Christianity - but then we know Cameron's White Queen "anything can be what I choose to call it" attitude (in this case, gay "marriage")and the Wonderland it has aended us up in ...

3 April 2014 at 19:23  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ carl (14:33)—They won’t want to go

Let’s see what happens when our patience finally snaps.

Has he managed to explain his Holocaust denial, yet?

As Phil has hinted (17:18), the niceties of Holocaust belief are unlikely to trouble those working-class Britons who have borne the brunt of mass immigration and who, if they dare complain, are disdained by the great and the good as racist scum.

@ Phil (17:14)—Media coverage of the BNP is invariably hostile and, when its message does get through, the stark truth can prove too stark for a generation raised on politicians’ cosy lies.

3 April 2014 at 19:48  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

JR

The BNP offers some sense of worth for many working class men. It makes them proud to be men.

Even if we get them to our girly Church what does it really offer these men?

Lets sit around and see how we can be nicer to each other! These men don't want to be nice. Also God does not want them to be nice either he wants them to be men.

If you are in any doubts about the last unfashionable sentence. Ask a woman if she what sort of man she really desires.

Nice boy is not one of them

Phil

3 April 2014 at 20:19  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

THE conservatives have missed a chance.

For every Billion they invest in families (Two parent hetero) it has been estimated that tey save 10 Billion

Why?

Children who grow up in a non traditional houshold are

5 times more likely to be in poverty

9 times more likely to get poor exam scores

20 times more likely to go to prison

Where did I get these stats says DanJo

From a speech by that hardline conservative ......Barack Obama!

Phil



3 April 2014 at 20:24  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

How’s this for tragic...

One is in little doubt that Central Office has informed Cameron he is in the process of ruining the Conservative party. So rather than fall back on the tried and trusted, the idiot is trying to persuade the populist buffoon Boris to stand again for parliament. Presumably, this marvellous happening would get most of the country voting Conservative.

And they are trying to stop us who care going over to UKIP !!

3 April 2014 at 20:48  
Blogger bluedog said...

Carl @ 13.33 says, 'You don't have any means to repatriate them.'

You may be familiar with Geert Wilders, the Dutch right-winger whose party is expected to do well in the Euro-elections. Wilders raises the issue of dual-nationality and posits the cancellation of Dutch citizenship for Dutch residents holding two passports as dual nationals. The underlying assumption being that many dual-nationality individuals are Muslim third-worlders.

Ticks a number of boxes, 'means to repatriate', and 'there is no country that would receive them'.

Yes, there is; they just go to their self-selected second home, potentially with their families.

3 April 2014 at 21:34  
Blogger IanCad said...

Well, curiousity got the better of me.

I'm a "centrist moderate social libertarian.
Right: 0.23, Libertarian: 2.28"


Seems not too far off.
The Conservatives get my backing.

3 April 2014 at 21:39  
Blogger Integrity said...

Your Grace,
Christians that I know do not know whom to vote for. Traditionally Conservative but not willing to vote for either of the other two parties. Some say they will vote UKIP but I have reservations. Farage's opposition to SSM was a leap in the dark to be different. I am just not sure that I can trust them on future moral issues.

3 April 2014 at 21:49  
Blogger Jumbo Driver said...

I managed to contact UKIP's Christian Soldiers. Unlike the Christian Socialists, whose Chairman was once Chris Bryant, they believe that the Bible is the word of God and that salvation is through faith in Jesus the Risen Lord.

The lady who runs it does not have a computer, but must have a typewriter, since she publishes a newsletter.

I agree with your Grace that the organisation needs a website.

3 April 2014 at 21:50  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

Apparently I am "a centrist- social moderate"...

3 April 2014 at 21:59  
Blogger bluedog said...

This communicant did the test and is demanding an independent audit of the result.

3 April 2014 at 22:11  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

You're not ot another Dalai Lama type, are you, bluedog?

*chuckle*

3 April 2014 at 22:13  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

The Muslims are not our enemy or the issue.

The values accepted by Cameron, Blair and Clegg are the problem and will eventually destroy us and our families and it is doing so already. They will not receive or need help from the Muslims.

Indeed many even in the Church accept these values. Are they even Christians?

You could send all the Muslims back tomorrow and it we would still have no future, because nothing will have really changed.

We could change our country to one where virtue is rewarded, evil is not tolerated and we will then have a life worth living for all, Christian and Muslim.

The Muslims are not the problem.

We are...... and the Church is not helping by condoning evil practices and non biblical behaviour as being acceptable to God.

Go on send the Muslims "home". Can you serious see this bringing about some sort of utopia?

The problem is us. Christian men, our cowardice and weakness.

We hide in fear of the state or women or whatever and so do not love God.

Phil


3 April 2014 at 22:14  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Inspector, Happy Jack says the world is waiting on your test result.

3 April 2014 at 22:15  
Blogger bluedog said...

HJ, it said centrist authoritarian, or similar. Didn't recognise myself. In the finest EU tradition it may be necessary to vote again to get the desired result. Which begs the question...

3 April 2014 at 22:42  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

"Happy Jack said...

Blowers, Happy Jack has been informed he is " ... a left moderate social authoritarian."

"Mr E S Blofeld ..http://www.gotoquiz.com/politics/political-spectrum-quiz.html

"You are a left social authoritarian." Matron and her medical team have fully assured old Ernst there is nothing that cannot be solved by stronger medication, Electroconvulsive therapy and several weeks in solitary confinement. Should be out just in time to vote for E U Elections *zap, zap, zap* 'Watch the voltage Matron, I said I liked Catatonia the welsh band, not I'm suffering from the illness'" *Chuckles*

Blowers

3 April 2014 at 22:48  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Jack. It’s a poor situation indeed if you have to submit yourself to some test to know where you are coming from. From where this one is standing, tests should be carried out on so called ‘with it’ types, including prime ministers...


3 April 2014 at 22:55  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Happy Jack said...

Inspector, Happy Jack says the world is waiting on your test result."

Oh...I heard a rumour on Pink News it came back 'Blimpist anti-social authoritarian' and damn proud you are by it... and you'd gone out to string up a few immigrants and low lifers to celebrate!! Bottoms Up, old fella!!! *Chortles*

Blofeld

3 April 2014 at 23:01  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Happy Jack retook the test bluedog. Alas, same result. One day Jack will get the result he wants. But what is it?

Blowers, ECT wont change your world view, old chap. It'll make you a bit more cheery and give you short-term memory loss. You'll just forget you're a Tory for a few weeks or months.

Is this what is happening to Cameron? the LGBT and radical feminists are plugging him in and zapping him at night whilst he sleeps?

“A little dab’ll do ya.”

3 April 2014 at 23:13  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Phil (22:14)—Muslims are not our enemy

We may not see Muslims as the enemy but our innocent kind-heartedness is not reciprocated: ‘Muster against them [non-Muslims] all the men and cavalry at your disposal, so that you may strike terror into the enemies of Allah and the faithful.’ [Qur’an 8:60]

Which sort of segues into your point about virtue and evil. Bearing in mind that striking terror is seen by Islam as a virtue, whose definitions of good and evil should we use: ours or theirs?

3 April 2014 at 23:15  
Blogger bluedog said...

Phil @ 22.14 says, 'The Muslims are not our enemy or the issue.'

But the Muslims say we are the enemy, it's part of their faith.

And, 'The problem is us. Christian men, our cowardice and weakness.'

Agreed, but the electoral system has produced a political leadership which is secular. Christian men, and women too Phil no misogyny please, are in the minority. Cameron thinks its cool to be a wishy-washy Anglican, Clegg is too cool to be anything but atheist, and Farage is very, very quietly Anglican. BoJo is Anglican too.

Miliband's position is intriguing. As a Jew with impeccable Marxist credentials his appeal to the socially liberal metropolitan Left of the Labour Party is assured. Quite how Miliband relates to the very macho, socially conservative and Catholic working-class in cities such as Liverpool and Glasgow is another matter. Indeed, he would find himself their polar opposite on many issues.

Hence this demographic is an open goal for Nigel Farage.

3 April 2014 at 23:18  
Blogger Rasher Bacon said...

Are we all approaching this completely the wrong way? Why should Cameron pay attention to a minority - and one which is becoming more of a fractured minority as time goes on, thanks to religious leaders? When I wrote to my MP on same sex marriage, the answer I got back was that there are faith leaders who are all for it. The answer was that he, an atheist, viewed me as being increasingly in the minority in my own faith. He was supported by Diana Johnson, Chris Bryant and other Anglicans.

Cameron's business is votes - that's how democracy works. If enough people don't believe something strongly enough, it ceases to matter in our current political economy.

Your Grace praised the work of Professor Linda Woodhead recently, who asked the question whether Christians really opposed same sex marriage. I was surprised that so many 'Christians' did oppose it, but those numbers still don't look convincing to an outsider.

Asking whether it was right or wrong that two people of the same sex should be allowed to get married, the results were:

Anglican: Right 44 Wrong 43, Don't Know 14 (rounding in there somewhere)
Methodist: Right 32 Wrong 45, Don't Know 23
Baptist: Right 40 Wrong 50, Don't Know 11
Jewish: Right 52 Wrong 38, Don't Know 10
Hindu: Right 55 Wrong 26, Don't Know 19
Muslim: Right 29 Wrong 59, Don't Know 12
Gen Population: Right 52 Wrong 34, Don't Know 14

In every case, add the 'Don't Knows' to the 'Rights' over time and you have a Christian majority for it. One doesn't even need to do that for those described as Anglican. The only ones that just shade against are the Muslims. If Cameron gambles that the Don't Knows aren't opposed and will go along with it once the law is changed, because they love a bit of leadership, why is it so hard to understand? He has a majority in the general population, according to this survey.

I prefer to see Cameron as just the product of his environment, doing his job. These stats possibly match an external view of Christian thought. Wall the established church up for a while, the rot sets in because the salt is gone, and they don't have to worry about removing the quadruple lock - it'll probably be unlocked from the inside.

I think there is a far greater beam in the collective eye of Christians over the past 60 years than the speck I can't even see in the eyes of those we vilify. I haven't heard any calls for repentance about a failure to teach truth, practice it with discipline and stand firm in it, just repentance about having been bigoted. Some Christians have been bigoted, but some haven't, but they're herded alike into the same naughty corner by a well-meaning Justin Welby. It's not just media spin - it's open season on millennia of doctrinal tradition. Voting rules in church as well as outside it. This whole survey was presented as an inexorable tide of opinion that the Anglican Church ought to lead rather than be dragged by.

The distinction between Christendom and the church of Christ can be missed by a university professor, what hope do politicians have?

3 April 2014 at 23:27  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

bluedog, Labour's appeal for the Catholic working-classes seems to lie in its economic interventionist strategies - redistribution of wealth and protection of societies most vulnerable through the welfare state.

What may cause a rethink amongst voters is the amoral policies concerning homosexuality and family life. However, many Catholic clergy have also gone soft on these issues. And, really, is any other party any better?

3 April 2014 at 23:35  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

UKIP is not a Christian party but it is not actively anti Christian like the socialists and liberals. Under Cameron there is no real difference between the big 3 so UKIP makes some sense for disenchanted cultural Christians who used to feel some empathy with lib lab or con.

I swore I would never vote Conservative again after what the execrable Kenneth Clarke did to my profession and the NHS in 1990 a vow I have kept.

Read Peter Hitchens on this- the party led by David Cameron deserves prosecution under the trades description actcas it is neither conservative nor unionist- excepr European unionist.

Agree with Carl- I'm voting UKIP but more in anger than hope. Its too late, we're stuffed.

3 April 2014 at 23:48  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Inspector, go on. It's a bit of fun. Jack wants to know how far up the scale of authoritarian-right you really are. Or are you authoritarian-left? (Can one be?) Jack is intrigued to learn how your outlook on homosexuals, abortion, the races, women etc. square with your avowed libertarian views.

*chuckle*

Blowers, now, now, just because our good friend the Inspector has strong opinions on *key* issues does not make him anti-social. For sure, he's anti-socialist. Is he a libertarian? This is the question.

4 April 2014 at 00:22  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

A detailed extensive and methodical search of the Internet finally revealed the meaning of 'Blimpist' to me. Blofeld's use of the word in reference to the Inspector was perfect. Metaphysically perfect.

Personally, I think that quiz is intentionally biased to the Left.

carl

4 April 2014 at 00:47  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Carl, how can you not know about good old Colonel Blimp? Tsk ... Americans! Ah, but then they don't get satire.

4 April 2014 at 01:01  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Ps .... so where did you figure on the test? Not leftist-liberal, surely?

4 April 2014 at 01:02  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Phil

I suspect that the people who vote BNP could not as they might say, "care a fuck about the Holocaust".

That may be so but it is irrelevant to a judgment regarding his fitness for office. There aren't many good explanations for Holocaust denial.

1. He actually thinks he is right. In which case he is too dumb to breathe.

2. He knows the truth but wants to suppress it in order to rehabilitate some Nazi policies or ideas. In which case he is malignant.

In addition, there is this uncomfortable fact. I admit I am just an American who is not aware of all the complexities of British politics but I do suspect there might be a small correlation between Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism. Like maybe a correlation factor of one. I don't know. What do you think.

They see that they have problems here and now, they are poor, mostly men and angry.

So they turn to stupid malignant leaders who promise them false solutions on return for power. Who say "You are poor and troubled because of THEM and if you give me power I will punish THEM." Then they receive power and things never develop as planned.

The man isn't fit for office. That is an objectively true statement. It doesn't matter what people who might vote for him would say.

carl

4 April 2014 at 01:07  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Jack

Right moderate social authoritarian. 4.12 on the Horizontal. 1.67 on the vertical.

I am a Burkean conservative. How that relates to this model I have no idea.

carl

4 April 2014 at 01:13  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Carl, a good result from Jack's point of view. The 'right' bit comes from your protestant ethic. Catholics tend towards the left, agreeing with private ownership and small businesses. They're more sceptical about unrestrained global capitalism and more inclined to intervene in markets.

And you're surprising libertarian. That'll be your Calvinism. It's preordained. Why try to constrain individual sinners?

4 April 2014 at 01:24  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

News from Silicon Valley

Brendan Eich, best known as the creator of JavaScript, yesterday resigned as the chief executive officer of Mozilla Corp., having been fingered for his unAmerican views on gay marriage.

The ghost of Senator Joseph McCarthy (Rep., Wis.) issued a statement welcoming the return of blacklisting. “Witch hunts are back,” the ghost chortled, clanking its chains while gleefully whistling “Happy Days Are Here Again.”

4 April 2014 at 01:33  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Bluedog

Wilders raises the issue of dual-nationality and posits the cancellation of Dutch citizenship for Dutch residents holding two passports as dual nationals.

Sure. Let's just arbitrarily deprive people of their citizenship based upon their membership in a group defined by race or religion. What could possibly go wrong with that plan?

The underlying assumption being that many dual-nationality individuals are Muslim third-worlders.

Because the precedent, once set, would never be used against a white group, no matter how unpopular. Say increasingly unpopular Christians in an increasingly secular Europe.

Ticks a number of boxes, 'means to repatriate', and 'there is no country that would receive them'.

Except... The immediate reaction would be for the vulnerable population to dump the non-Dutch passport before the law takes effect. And the receiving country would make it easy since they are exporting excess population and don't necessarily want them all back. What exactly would Pakistan do with a huge burst of returning citizens from Europe? "I don't care" isn't a useful answer. You can't impose this solution on them.

Plus, you still have the logistics problem. If there are any significant numbers involved, you will be transportation limited. There are only so many seats to Pakistan available on a given day. These people have to have money to travel and means of support once they arrive. If these conditions aren't met, you are going to have to force them out. One by one by one. And you are going to have to sustain that resolve against increasing (and increasingly violent) opposition for a very long time.

I think you will find that the targeted population will not sit passively for years waiting to be cast back into Pakistan. So then what?

carl

4 April 2014 at 01:35  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

JR wrote:

Let’s see what happens when our patience finally snaps.

And people wonder why I start quoting the Horst Wessel Lied when the subject comes up. There is one, only one, and no more than one destination at the end of this "Deport all the Muslins" campaign. And it isn't deportation because it physically can't be done.

carl

4 April 2014 at 01:42  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

I have to admit I'd be reluctant to see a political movement based on religion, not so much because I don't think religion has any place in, or can make no contribution to, political life, but because if the "Religious Right" in the U.S. is anything to go by, it will merely produce yet another form of identity politics, spearheaded by people who are neither particularly representative of their caucus nor particularly concerned with their interests.

If you can rely on someone giving you their vote without you having to do anything, chances are, you will not attempt to earn it.

That's why the "Tory party at prayer" was always tending towards being shafted: nobody cared about keeping the faithful "on-side" when there were swing votes to chase.

---

Incidentally, I appear to be painfully on the fence:

"You are a centrist social moderate.
Left: 0.25, Authoritarian: 0.32"

On Foreign Policy I got -0.44 to the Non-Interventionist camp (barely), and a somewhat stronger 0.25 for being a Cultural Conservative, which is the only area, apparently, where I am substantially politically distinct.

4 April 2014 at 03:14  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

On the wider issues of culture wars and whether 'Christendom' can be restored, I have been reviewing my assumptions and outlook recently. Maybe due to my drift towards Calvinism (sorry, I can't help myself) maybe due to getting older, but I see the dechristianisation of Europe as having developed an unstoppable momentum.

For a disciole of Jesus, are the culture wars worth fighting? I used to campaign quite vigourouly against abortion, I gave up when the abject and utter failure of the Alton Bill proved how unassailable abortionism is in this nation of fornicators and adulterers.

I have been rather reflecting on heroes of faith like Daniel and his fiends and Joseph who accepted that God had ordained their status as slaves in pagan nations. They done well, but Babylon and Egypt remained pagan.

As Saint Peter preached on the day of Pentecost 'save yourselves from this wicked generation'.

Perhsps it is time to disavow the culture wars, accept the end of Christendom snd make out like Shadrach, Meshech and Abednego. 'Our God may or may not save us, O king, but even if you throw us into that burning fiery furnace, we will not worship your idol.'

4 April 2014 at 06:37  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

Sorry, Daniel and his friends.

These heroes of faith didn't try to change the culture, they kept themselves pure and undefiled from it and maintained their testimony to truth under extreme pressure.

4 April 2014 at 06:51  
Blogger Len said...

It would seem that our culture is locked on a course which will bring it into a collision with God this now seems to be inevitable.
As it was with the Titanic all the elements are in position and we are steaming full ahead.
There will be survivors but not many .

The warnings have gone out but some seem to think their particular ship is unsinkable (whether this be their religion or their philosophy.)

The only safe place for the coming storms is standing on the Rock which is Christ.

4 April 2014 at 07:22  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Augustine saw passages like 'Matthew' 24 as having a triple significance: immediate future, Church through time, end times.

The Gospel will have been preached everywhere. (Not accepted everywhere: very different.)

Otherwise wars and rumours of wars, famines, earthquakes, false leaders, false teachers, a falling away from the faith, and the love of many growing cold.

Seems to me we're not at the end of things yet, but we're right on track.

4 April 2014 at 08:13  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Clegg is too cool to be anything but atheist,

Atheists are cool eh... that's a first for me then.

4 April 2014 at 09:19  
Blogger Nick said...

Uncle Brian @01:33

Yes it's shocking about Eich. When you read of this sort of thing you can see why spineless politicians bow to the gay idol. In the West, fear of losing your job/career is very powerful, like a life and death issue. These cultural terrorists know how to hurt. Just shows what malignant bigots they are

4 April 2014 at 10:01  
Blogger Guy Jones said...

@ Len 07:22

Absolutely. We must stand on The Rock. All else is folly. Either God is in charge is He isn't. Judgement is horrible and destructive, but we as a nation have consistently provoked God and our deeds deserve to be judged. For the Christian there is only one course of action. That is to repent, pray and stand in the gap for this nation.

God will bring a new start out of the remnant.

4 April 2014 at 10:06  
Blogger richardhj said...

Congratulations Dreadnaught. Cool at last. Not sure that's ever going to happen to me.

With regard to your posting of yesterday 16:03, I am not sure why the general silence and apparent lack of serious opposition to the abortion liberalisation. Am wondering though whether it's with lawyers. After all, as far as I understand it, the suggestion appears to be that a government minister may have given permission to illegally kill babies. That would be a very interesting court case.

4 April 2014 at 11:28  
Blogger bluedog said...

Carl @ 01.35.

For Wilders’ plan to work without the Dutch being hauled before the International Court of Justice in the Hague and/or the UN, one presupposes that somebody has done an analysis of dual passport holders in Holland. If there are only a handful of Muslim dual nationality holders in Holland, a non-targeted campaign will fail to generate the desired result. An overtly targeted campaign would cause a global outcry in the absence of justification. Justification might be considered as a major terrorist event like 9/11.

Let us assume that a non-targeted, but general campaign is Wilders’ intent for the political reasons suggested above. As Wilders is a member of the Dutch parliament but not in the government, the emergence of the idea in his manifesto for the Euro-elections suggests that his party has access to privileged information regarding the identity of dual nationality holders in Holland. This in itself would not be exceptional for an MP.

You say, ‘Because the precedent, once set, would never be used against a white group, no matter how unpopular (Your irony). Say increasingly unpopular Christians in an increasingly secular Europe.’

Pure fantasy. Europeans do not deny their Christian heritage. As it is, the highly secular British government is currently throwing money at British cathedrals because of their cultural relevance. A cynic would say Cameron seeks to buy back the Christian vote lost by the enactment of SSM. Would the French turn Notre Dame into another Paris museum? Mais non, every Mass is packed with tourists; not so much a cathedral as a cash cow.

You say, ‘The immediate reaction would be for the vulnerable population to dump the non-Dutch passport before the law takes effect.’ Solution: back-date implementation.

You say, ‘What exactly would Pakistan do with a huge burst of returning citizens from Europe?’ Answer: benefit from a slightly better educated demographic within its own borders, experiencing an economic surge as a result.

You say, ‘You can't impose this solution on them.’ Well, if they are not prepared to allow their own citizens to return, Pakistan should not have permitted its citizens to take out a second nationality in the first instance. Or they should not have granted Pakistani citizenship to British citizens. Your comment simply gives Pakistan, or Morocco, or wherever, a free option to cancel the citizenship rights of their own citizens. If you give that right to Pakistan, let Britain have the same power.

You say, ‘Plus, you still have the logistics problem.’ Logistics incur costs. But what are the cost savings of repatriating a demographic with famously low productivity?

Every citizen of the UK, or any Western nation, requires two classes of outlay to sustain the western lifestyle; a certain capital expenditure on infrastructure and a certain level of annual running costs, both fixed and variable. The capital expenditure is housing (private or social), schools, hospitals, police stations, military infrastructure, government infrastructure at three levels, etc. Annual running costs are of course food, clothing, health and education, power, communications, transport, the criminal justice system, etc. These figures can be easily quantified if you know where to look. There can be few exercises less beneficial to a nation state than to raise and educate citizens who promptly go onto lifetime benefits.

tbc

4 April 2014 at 11:31  
Blogger bluedog said...

Carl @ 01.35, contd.

Having considered the outlays, what about the receipts? From UK GDP per capita, USD 37300 (CIA), or £22380, it may be possible to impute a level of tax receipts per capita, an exercise complicated by VAT at 20% which is applied with numerous exemptions, mainly on food, and numerous other allowances and exemptions in assessing taxable income. Assuming the basic tax rate of 20%, a tax of USD 7460 or £4476 on GDP per capita can be estimated, very approximately. After recent debate, benefits per family were capped at £500 a week for couples, with or without children. It would seem highly unlikely that a family on benefits at this level of £26000pa could possibly generate an equal sum in tax revenue, let alone a surplus for the British state. In other words, their presence in the UK is a net economic negative.

The Cameron government has been trying to reduce the numbers on benefits which before the election in 2010 were estimated at 6 million, or 10% of the population, not all at the capped rate.

So, what’s the price of airline tickets for a family of five to Pakistan? £2500 will cover it plus the taxi-fare with Uncle Mustafa Fatwa to the airport and the departure taxes. The munificent British state, if economically rational, will happily pay the airfares.
https://wl-prod.sabresonicweb.com/SSW2010/PKPK/webqtrip.html?execution=e1s1

A resettlement allowance of £13000, charged at half the UK rate of capped benefits of £26000, paid for one year should provide an equivalent living standard in Pakistan. Total cost to the British state of relocation is a one-off charge of £15500.

So there it is, economically attractive, leading to reduced budget deficits and potential tax reductions. A major internal security threat is eliminated, further enhancing the benefits.

That’s it; done answering Dodoesque questions.

4 April 2014 at 11:35  
Blogger Charles Dawne said...

I am surprised His Grace puts so much emphasis on the existence of websites and social media - that big consensual hallucination that we are all "connected" and together when in fact we are all alone with our computers - and that he has such a closed mind and lazy attitude to research and investigation.

As for the political compass - I have taken it a number of times (it changes it criteria) as have a couple of other conservatives (small c)and we found the we all charted on the centre in various quadrants.

This to me just backs up Russell Kirk's idea that true conservative thinkers are free of ideology and that conservatism is really a lack of ideology.

4 April 2014 at 12:08  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

I agree with this assessment Cranmer. However it had to be pointed out that I - and many other of your regular congregation - pointed it all out to you before the last general election. Yet you still slavishly stuck to your party political allegiances, and I suspect that it is so deeply ingrained in you that I fear you will do the same next year. And then of course there is the fact that you stubbornly refused to shift on the issue of the AV referendum therefore keeping the playing field very uneven, favoring the 2 party system.

For the first time in my life I will be making a donation to a political party. It will be UKIP. I loathe the existing political class with a passion. Until they outlaw the incitement political hatred I intend to do all I can to see the existing barstewards brought down. However I'm under no illusion that UKIP would be much different in power. Lord Mandleson and his ilk are still the ones wielding real power. Nick clegg will be more of a malevolent force when he is an EU commissioner than he is now.

4 April 2014 at 12:11  
Blogger richardhj said...

RebelSaint.

I agree with you entirely about the last election. I knew what Cameron was like when he stood for the Party leadership. I was a councillor at the time and would have resigned from the party on the day he was elected except that I wanted to avoid the publicity for family and employment reasons.
Then as opposition leader,he criticised Blair for taking his time to decide whether Catholic adoption agencies should be given exemption from the laws requiring that they had to allow gays to adopt saying that (paraphrasing) there is " no way the exemption should be allowed. No exemptions from this good thing".

How anyone can claim to know about politics and still think that Cameron was anything other than a liberal by 2010 is totally beyond me.

4 April 2014 at 14:05  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Carl

"I do suspect there might be a small correlation between Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism. Like maybe a correlation factor of one. I don't know. What do you think."

Yes I think there might be a correlation but for most BNP I would guess, anti-Semitism is a non issue.

"So they turn to stupid malignant leaders who promise them false solutions on return for power. Who say "You are poor and troubled because of THEM and if you give me power I will punish THEM." Then they receive power and things never develop as planned."

No Carl they offer these men the chance to regain their self respect. In Britain working class men outside of the army have no role, not job security if they have one and no status.

They think that they have nothing to lose if they support the BNP and much to potentially gain. For a non Christian working class male it is a rational decision. Perhaps the most rational of the limited choice on offer to them.

Carl. They live in a world where they are a nobody. If it wasn't for computer games they would have caused far more issues to society already.

Phil

4 April 2014 at 14:17  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Carl Jacobs
I ran into Greg Constantine the other week and bought his book 'Exiled to Nowhere-Burma's Rohingya'which pretty much give s a good example of what would happen if the double Dutchman has his way.
Burma gives a good example of what happens when "independence" guides a countries thinking.

4 April 2014 at 14:33  
Blogger Manfarang said...

...a country's thinking- emoting maybe a better word.

4 April 2014 at 14:38  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Economic Left/Right: 1.12

Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 4.46

In the blue area, naturally…

And of course, ‘social libertarianism’ has a lot to answer for.

4 April 2014 at 18:22  
Blogger Hannah said...

Well I'm apparently a right wing social and economic Libertarian!!

Hugs and kisses to Johnny and Phil, who should really visit Auschwitz &
Yad Vashem.

NEVER AGAIN WILL THE JEWISH NATION BE SUBJECT TO GENOCIDE, APPEASEMENT AND ANTI-SEMITISM!

4 April 2014 at 19:14  
Blogger Rasher Bacon said...

Phil

I think Carl's right to flag the dissatisfaction with the satus quo as having a very accurate and dangerous precedent. If I remember The Rise & Fall of the Third Reich correctly, a certain bohemian corporal managed to swing over 14m votes by appearing muscular and no-nonsense against a background of wets.

I feel that this is a dangerous time for Christians, and if we have any spare time we should spend it learning from Christ. While I think 'the wets' bear responsibility for his appeal, let's leave Nick Griffin to his own master. We have ours and he'll be back soon. I feel rubbish at spreading the good news of the gospel, but I could yak on about this for hours so I need to drop all this argy-bargy and get some progress made on the other before I meet my Creator.

'My peace I give unto you, not as the world gives...'

4 April 2014 at 19:18  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Rasher

It is not the wets that are the problem not even Nick Griffin.

Hitler got voted because he offered clear solutions when life was bad.

Life is bad for men not because they are particularly materially poor but because they do not have a role in this society that is basically all about turning men into women and destroying the family unit headed by a male.

We need to give these men a sense of purpose. Within the Church would be a good start.

Phil


4 April 2014 at 20:20  
Blogger Rasher Bacon said...

Phil

Try the London Men's Convention. 26th April. Might still be tickets available, but you'd appreciate the number of blokes who turn up and what's said.

A bit far if you're in Wales, I spose, but I expect a chap like you to cycle all the way.

I'm going.

4 April 2014 at 20:52  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Rasher

I'm not saying that men need to join the SAS to be men. The biblical concept of manhood is actually quite clear. It is not about shunning the washing up, making dinner or changing nappies. It is about taking your role as leadership for the family seriously. I believe that it is not easy it is not about being bossy, but being the leader. That often means you put your family first before your desires as an individual. Listening to your wife and probably agreeing with her 99% of the time. This honours your wife as you chose to do so as a man and because you love her. Occasionally though, you need to make difficult decisions. As a man you make them and also deal with and take full responsibility for your actions.

You care for, cherish and love your wife. Care for her and your family. This gives your wife freedom to respect and honour you as a man.

Long bike rides have nothing to do with it!

Phil

4 April 2014 at 22:35  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Phil @ 20:20

The murderer of Lee Rigby was apparently a Christian originally, but gave it up because he found Christianity too wussy.

4 April 2014 at 22:38  
Blogger Rasher Bacon said...

Phil

I'm not aware of any SAS characters at the LMC - the moustaches would be a dead giveaway. I was just suggesting that meeting with a large number of blokes who believe exactly what you said is actually quite encouraging, and evidence that some in the church (even in the CofE) have recognised the need you identify and done something about it. Google it - I daren't give the link in case I get struck off.

Honestly, I was joking about the bike ride. I was!




Cissy...

4 April 2014 at 22:46  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Rasher

We have an all action Army Captain that attends our Church. He is the regular "Action Man" very fit good looking etc. We were discussing him the other day and I said I was surprised he was not married. My wife said "Oh you mean Rick the Dick!" Apparently the women in Church call him that and it is to do with his boorishness rather than any physical attributes.

So it really is (The Original) James Bond for the ladies it seems.

Phil

4 April 2014 at 22:50  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Explorer

" gave it up because he found Christianity too wussy. "

Bring back the Crusaders!

(You think I am joking?)

Phil

4 April 2014 at 22:53  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Rasher

I have just checked. I am traveling to the Netherlands that day or I would go.

Sounds a good day. Enjoy.

Phil

4 April 2014 at 22:56  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Hannah

"Hugs and kisses to Johnny and Phil, who should really visit Auschwitz &
Yad Vashem."

I have visited a concentration camp. One was enough.

I am not condoning antisemitism.

Phil

4 April 2014 at 23:00  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Hannah

"NEVER AGAIN WILL THE JEWISH NATION BE SUBJECT TO GENOCIDE, APPEASEMENT AND ANTI-SEMITISM!"

I hope you are right.

Somehow, I don't think it is very likely

Phil

4 April 2014 at 23:02  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Hannah (19:14 on 4 April)—NEVER AGAIN WILL THE JEWISH NATION BE SUBJECT TO GENOCIDE, APPEASEMENT AND ANTI-SEMITISM!

In Mecca, genocide is all the rage and they do a nifty line in anti-Semitism, too:

    In one of his sermons, Saudi sheikh Abd Al-Rahman Al-Sudayyis, imam and preacher at the Al-Haraam mosque—the most important mosque in Mecca—beseeched Allah to annihilate the Jews. He also urged the Arabs to give up peace initiatives with them because they are ‘the scum of the human race, the rats of the world, the violators of pacts and agreements, the murderers of the prophets, and the offspring of apes and pigs.’

    ‘Read history,’ called Al-Sudayyis in another sermon, ‘and you will understand that the Jews of yesterday are the evil fathers of the Jews of today, who are evil offspring, infidels, distorters of [others’] words, calf-worshippers, prophet-murderers, prophecy-deniers… the scum of the human race ‘whom Allah cursed and turned into apes and pigs…’ These are the Jews, an ongoing continuum of deceit, obstinacy, licentiousness, evil, and corruption...’

If Islam is allowed to get its way, you can kiss goodbye to the Jewish nation.

5 April 2014 at 00:33  
Blogger Theo said...

May I recommend a book " the Principality and Power of Europe" in which the author makes an excellent case for voting UKIP, or even becoming a member.

6 April 2014 at 10:07  
Blogger Hannah said...

Hi Johnny,

Yes I'm aware of stuff like that. That's why we need a STRONG Israel and ignore these stupid ideas of boycotting the Jewish homeland.

6 April 2014 at 19:55  
Blogger Len said...

The Palestinians are doing a good PR job in 'demonizing' Israel. I wonder if the Israelis are doing enough to put their[very good ]case forward? (perhaps an International Israeli news station to put out the true picture of what is happening in Israel and the surrounding areas?)
Anti semitism is on the rise worldwide and although this has strong spiritual elements I am sure more can be done to explain exactly what the Islamic agenda towards Israel is.

7 April 2014 at 18:09  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Hannah (19:55 on 6 April)—What Israel needs above everything is the backing of the United States. When the Immigration and Nationality Act 1965 has worked its magic and the United States comes under new, non-European ownership, Israel may well lose that backing and, unless she finds a new champion, nothing will save her. One wonders if the Jews who argued for the Act realized what they were doing.

8 April 2014 at 23:22  

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