Wednesday, April 23, 2014

Happy 450th Birthday, William Shakespeare: "Cry ‘God for Harry, England, and St George!"

From the quill of William Shakespeare comes the only line in Renaissance literature which links England with St George. It could not be more appropriate that the Bard’s birthday falls on this day, for it becomes a cause of celebration of England’s (and the world’s) greatest writer. To borrow from Hamlet: "He was a man, take him for all in all; we shall not look upon his like again." And today we mark the 450th anniversary of his birth.

That a humble son of a glover, with an education no higher than a grammar school, should tower above the university-educated; should have such insight into morals, manners, economy, philosophy, religion, taste, and the conduct of life, is a cause for wonder. That an Englishman was blessed with great knowledge of the greatest mysteries, understood the politics of high office without having held any, and could articulate with profound accuracy the emotions and needs of the common man, is a cause for great celebration – yea, a national holiday.

But we shall not get it - for fear of 'English nationalism'.

Saints Andrew, David and Patrick may be celebrated with a secure national identity and respectful chippiness. But George is vulgar, and represents the bunting-strewn, beer-swilling worst of what it is to be English. It ought to be cancelled on 'Health & Safety' grounds alone.

Like Guy Fawkes' Night - offensive, sectarian, divisive and dangerous.

But it's only English culture and tradition which needs to be subsumed and sidelined: Scottish, Welsh and Irish nationalism are wholesome manifestations of historical defensiveness and political identity. Even on Shakespeare's birthday, the cry to honour England or laud the English is 'racist'. Even in this second great Elizabethan age, we may not receive from or observe in Shakespeare's nature the peculiar impulse and impression which he, best of all, bequeaths to us. He is not just of England or for the English: he belongs to the whole world and is for all time. And yet he is English and of England, and at his quill patriotism becomes a virtue and a blessing.

The greatest human mind ever to walk the earth writes eloquently of love, friendship, marriage, parenthood, jealousy, ambition, hatred, revenge, loyalty, devotion and mercy. And into these he weaves the national life of England, caressed with extravagant sensibility: "This blessed plot, this earth, this realm", which is"possessed with rumours, full of idle dereams." And our national life is identifiably Christian: "Is this Ascension-day?"

He is not concerned with doctrine, but with the state of the human heart, will, intellect and soul. In this new age of limitation, restriction, deficiency and injunction, William Shakespeare liberates us to think what we may not, feel what is unmentionable, and be what is forbidden.

Happy Birthday, Will.


Blogger Gareth said...

And yet the great 'English' hero who conjures the spirit of St George to rally his troops, admits, twice, that he is really Welsh.

23 April 2014 at 09:07  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

As the violently dominant ‘tribe’ of these islands and later vast portions of the world, English identity was self-subsumed in to the political construct of Britain under the Union Flag. We made the rules that early in history marginalised the Celtic nation of Wales in to a Principality. Ireland and Scotland were forcibly restrained leaving nothing much more than lingering resentment of the English establishment. They retained their national identity, Saints Days and wounded pride, it’s all they had left anyway, while the English sat back carved up land tenures and developed the Class System of identity for home consumption.
Henry the eighth and the establishment of Angicanism dispensed with saintly status and in any case what the hell has George to do wish England of goodness sake. Shakespeare is a poor substitute rallying standard and we English have to just suck it up, that our lords and masters for their own aggrandisement, destroyed any illusion of tribal identity forged through adversity of the English.

‘We’ won.

‘They’ lost.

Now, 'We' can’t even now win a game of football FFS!

23 April 2014 at 09:45  
Blogger WindsorBloke said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

23 April 2014 at 09:50  
Blogger WindsorBloke said...

I'm proud to be English but don't feel any need to celebrate the fact in an ostentatious way. Leave flag-waving to the over-emotional celts; I'm comfortable within my skin.

Harold Macmillan summed up the English temperament as being a combination of irony and understatement. In some cases this can degenerate into sarcasm and arrogance, but on the whole I go along with SuperMac.

Presented with a fine wine or a good meal, what's the highest praise that an Englishman will bestow on them? "Not bad!"

As soon as the English get effusive you know they're being insincere.

23 April 2014 at 10:18  
Blogger Rasher Bacon said...

I shall be trying to celebrate in time honoured understated fashion - with a pint in a London pub.

Happy Birthday to William (and I don't think Bacon wrote your plays).

23 April 2014 at 10:41  
Blogger IanCad said...

WindsorBloke, @ 10:18

So, an Englishman is treated to an absolute, first class, slap up meal.

Best he's had for years in fact, and all the ungrateful wretch will say is that it's "Not Bad"

Better not go overboard with the praise - may have to pay him back.

As to your last paragraph; I would say that is probably one of the few times it is likely the fellow is speaking the truth.

23 April 2014 at 10:43  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

Happy Birthday Will. All of us who love literature are in your debt.

23 April 2014 at 10:43  
Blogger Iain Moore said...

The most destructive force of a nation is done by those on the inside, and here England has been sorely damaged. We think are interests are being served by a British establishment, that aren't, for the British establishment have a different agenda and with other interests to serve, and so English people can no longer sit back, comfortable in their skin and their slippers, while the British establishment discriminate against our young, our sick, and our pensioners, worse made English people constitutional second class citizens. This lack of ostentation is costing English people dear, and it can only be selfish self satisfied English people who still think that not waving the flag can be seen as something to boast about .

23 April 2014 at 10:52  
Blogger WindsorBloke said...


Among Englishmen "not bad" is recognised as the highest form of compliment.

23 April 2014 at 10:54  
Blogger IanCad said...


"Not Bad"

In that case Shakespeare could not possibly have been British.

His vocabulary would have been far too limited.

23 April 2014 at 11:08  
Blogger WindsorBloke said...


First, for the avoidance of doubt, the words in the last two paragraphs in my 10.18 comment are mine, not Harold Macmillan's.

Second, we are commenting here about being English; being British is something else entirely.

23 April 2014 at 11:20  
Blogger A.K.A. Damo Mackerel said...

Why Shakespeare Is For All Time.

23 April 2014 at 11:25  
Blogger Roy said...

Happy Birthday Shakespeare and Happy St George's Day.

I am Welsh and have absolutely no objection to English people celebrating St George's Day or to people of any nationality celebrating any of their national days.

However I do get irritated by the complaints of Englishmen, like Your Grace, whom moan about not being allowed to celebrate St George's Day or to fly the flag of St George. I have never ever in my life heard a Welsh or Scottish or Irish person say that the English should not celebrate St George's Day.

The sort of people who describe flying the flag of St George as racist are predominantly English multi-culti left wing quislings. If the rest of you English are so lacking in backbone that you allow those quislings to dictate to you what you can and cannot do, that is your problem. Don't blame us Celts.

By the way, although it is natural for Your Grace to think more often of St George rather than the patron saints of Wales, Ireland and Scotland (perhaps not Scotland since St Andrew was an apostle) it would be nice if on future occasions you could find something to say on St David's, St Patrick's and St Andrew's Days.

Of course, St Patrick was really a Welshman, like St David, or at least a Briton which, in those days, was the same thing.

23 April 2014 at 12:13  
Blogger Iain Moore said...

To reply to Roy's generous St George's day salutations, thank you.

Unfortunately as to the rest he is mistaken about the problem we English people have. When we say we are not allowed to raise the Flag of St George, what we are saying is that we cannot raise English people's issues. What we have is an indifferent British establishment squatting in all the positions where English interests might be explored, but aren't.

For instance, having Gordon Brown anoint himself Laird over England, was an issue. When the BBC asked people to send in questions to ask him on an interview, the two most popular questions were about pensions and English devolution. But the BBC decided that English devolution was of no interest to them, so Gordon Brown wasn't put on the spot. So there we have the institutional problem with the BBC, where there is a BBC Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, but no BBC England, here England has no voice for the BBC views us, just like the rest of the British establishment, as a place of regions with no identity.

Then there is Parliament, where there are Ministries and Ministers for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, but no department of state or Minister for England, so no English questions in Parliament, unlike Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

To high light the problem to an even greater extent is blog from John Redwood recently , who described how he sought to table a question asking 'who speaks for England' this question he informed us was returned to him as a question that shouldn't be asked in Parliament.

So we have the problem of a British political establishment who are completely indifferent to English people's issues, to the point where they won't even allow questions to be asked. And we have the BBC, who has interceded itself between the electorate and the politicians, who claim to hold the politicians to account, but only do that on issues that interest their left-wing metropolitan views, and here English peoples issues don't rate.

23 April 2014 at 13:19  
Blogger Albert said...

Just to clarify, it is not St George's Day, since saints days are superseded by Easter Week. Those wishing to keep St George need to do so on Monday.

23 April 2014 at 13:33  
Blogger bluedog said...

Gareth, who may be Welsh, says @ 09.07, 'And yet the great 'English' hero who conjures the spirit of St George to rally his troops, admits, twice, that he is really Welsh'.

Huh? Born in Wales and Prince of Wales, but a member of the Plantagenet family who married the daughter of the King of France and devoted his life to becoming King of France himself.

Obviously English.

23 April 2014 at 13:38  
Blogger Albert said...

One thing's for sure, St George was not English!

23 April 2014 at 13:45  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

23 April 2014 at 13:47  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Gareth (09:07) should have gone in for the kill: Shakespeare himself ‘admits, twice, that he is really Welsh.’ In Act III Scene 2 of The Winter’s Tale, the Boyo has Hermione declaim:

Your honours all,
I do refer me to the coracle:
Apollo be my judge!

And in The Merchant of Venice Act I Scene 1, Gratiano muses:

As who should say ‘I am Sir Coracle,
And when I ope my lips let no dog bark!’

23 April 2014 at 13:50  
Blogger Gareth said...


By the way, I am an English/Welsh/Scottish mongrel. 'British' is the term most often used I think ;)

23 April 2014 at 13:50  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Albert (13:45)—Two more things that are for sure: St Peter’s corpse isn’t in Rome and St James’ isn’t in Spain.

23 April 2014 at 13:57  
Blogger bradypus said...

Bring back Flanders and Swann and that Great National song of the English " The Song of Patriotic Prejudice" with it's various chorus'
The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest."

"The English are noble, the English are nice,
And worth any other at double the price"

"The English are moral, the English are good
And clever and modest and misunderstood."

and the final verses
"And all the world over, each nation's the same
They've simply no notion of playing the game
They argue with umpires, they cheer when they've won
And they practice beforehand which ruins the fun!

It's not that they're wicked or naturally bad
It's knowing they're foreign that makes them so mad!

For the English are all that a nation should be........

All sung suitably tonguue-in-cheek of course

23 April 2014 at 15:12  
Blogger Albert said...


Two more things that are for sure: St Peter’s corpse isn’t in Rome and St James’ isn’t in Spain.

If it is certain, I assume you have evidence - or is it just true a priori: this would annoy Catholics, therefore this is true?

23 April 2014 at 15:30  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Albert (13:45)—Two more things that are for sure: St Peter’s corpse isn’t in Rome and St James’ isn’t in Spain.

23 April 2014 13:57

Agreed, Johnny, that the connection between St James the Greater and Santiago de Compostela was never (as far as I know) seriously held to be historical. But wasn’t St Peter martyred in Rome? Where, then, did he die?


23 April 2014 at 15:34  
Blogger Len said...

Apparently St Peters grave is in Jerusalem.

23 April 2014 at 16:10  
Blogger Albert said...


I assume you will answer the case linked on that document, that the inscription does not say "Simon bar Jonah" but “Shimon Bar Zilla(i)”?

Over to you.

23 April 2014 at 16:30  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Len, I followed that link – thanks. It’s a gossipy, entertaining read, but hardly what you’d call scholarly. For instance, he quotes “a Yale professor” without giving his name, and he glibly mentions “the Garden Tomb, where Jesus was buried and rose again,” which is an archaeological impossibility. Simon (Shimon, Simeon) was the commonest man’s name among the Jewish population of the Holy Land in the last few centuries BC and the first few centuries AD, and “bar Yonah” is a doubtful reading, as Albert has pointed out. So thanks, Len, for a fun read, but it can’t be taken seriously as history.

23 April 2014 at 17:41  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

23 April 2014 at 18:20  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

" Petruchio: Come, come, wasp;i'faith you are too angry.

Katherine: If I be waspish best beware my sting.

Petruchio: My remedy is then to pluck it out.

Katherine: Ay, if the fool could find where it lies.

Petruchio: Who does know where a wasp does wear his sting. In his tail?

Katherine: In his tongue.

Petruchio: Whose tongue?

Katherine: Yours,if you talk of tails: and so farewell.

Petruchio: What, with my tongue in your tail? Nay, come again,
Good Kate, I am a gentleman."

The Taming Of The Shrew ...William Shakespeare

23 April 2014 at 18:26  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


this would annoy Catholics, therefore this is true

Try as I might, I am unable to find any logical fallacy with this formulation. One can only add ...



23 April 2014 at 18:26  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Albert (15:30)—It’s possible that St James’ headless remains were spirited away by angels and sailed themselves to Spain, where a rock thoughtfully closed about them. It’s also possible that the local bishop knew a money-spinner when he saw it.

@ Uncle Brian (15:34)—There’s no record of St Peter setting foot in Italy alive or dead but Pope Paul VI, never a fan of loose ends, declared otherwise.

23 April 2014 at 18:33  
Blogger Albert said...


I'm not all that interested in St James, but I asked for evidence in defence of your claim. I have received none.

There’s no record of St Peter setting foot in Italy alive or dead

That's not evidence either, except of the fact that you don't seem to know much about the evidence of the early church.

23 April 2014 at 18:56  
Blogger Albert said...


You must be greatly relieved to have yet another compelling argument against Catholicism! :-)

23 April 2014 at 18:57  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Bravo William !

What a man. One understands his “Mousetrap” can still be seen performed in London today, apparently. Don’t let on about the ending though.

23 April 2014 at 19:08  
Blogger Len said...

I suppose if you build a Church on a pagan cemetery(The Vatican)(you just couldn`t make this up)then you are going to get a never ending supply of relics to dig up.
The irony!

23 April 2014 at 19:22  
Blogger Len said...

Apparently the Catholics thought so much of St Peter that they buried him [allegedly] in a ...pagan Cemetery...of all things!.
How thoughtful..and the bones were then dug up by a workman and put in a ... shoebox...

The relics trade just` aint what it was....

The story continues...

'Deep in the earth below the great basilica of St. Peter’s in Rome [LIFE wrote] the clink of pickaxes and the scrape of shovels in the hands of workmen have been echoing dimly for 10 years. In the utmost secrecy, they have penetrated into a pagan cemetery buried for 16 centuries. Architects feared they might disturb the foundations on which rests the world’s largest church. But the workmen, with careful hands, pushed forward finally to the area where, according to a basic tenet of the Catholic Church, the bones of' St. Peter' were buried about A.D. 66.'

Read more: The Vatican: Photos Reveal What’s Beneath St. Peter’s |

23 April 2014 at 19:35  
Blogger Len said...

It is rather interesting( to me at least )that the source of this article, "Gli Scavi del Dominus Flevit", was Catholic priests you think they just made the whole thing up?.

23 April 2014 at 19:46  
Blogger Albert said...


You're such a straw man merchant, you could almost be an atheist.

23 April 2014 at 19:49  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

Happy St George's day one and all. As Passover has finished, I can raise a pint to him and the bard.

23 April 2014 at 19:55  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Len, the thread is celebrating Shakespeare! And you .... "No, I will be the pattern of all patience; I will say nothing."

Happy Jack struggles with Shakespeare but finds it well worth the effort. He never studied him much at school.

Jack likes this quote: “The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.”

23 April 2014 at 20:00  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Johnny R

is our resident patristics expert and if he sees this, I hope he will be kind enough to give us the benefit of his wisdom. As I understand it, Peter and Paul are mentioned jointly – in terms suggesting that they were both present in Rome and were both martyred there under Nero – in two early epistles, both written around the year 100 to 110: Pope Clement I’s epistle to the Church at Corinth, and Ignatius of Antioch’s epistle to the Romans.

Bearing in mind that the Christian churches were an illegal organisation for much of the time in the Roman empire at least from the reign of Claudius onward, until they were decriminalised under Constantine, you could hardly expect to find full documentary evidence of who lived where and when. Most historians seem to have accepted the extant documents as reasonable evidence that Peter and Paul were both martyred in Rome during Nero’s persecution, not least because no other city has ever claimed the honour.

23 April 2014 at 21:16  
Blogger Darter Noster said...

Ah yes, the old tomb of St. Peter's, because someone's found a tomb with Simon Son of Jonah on it. Or when they claimed to have disproved the resurrection by finding the burial of a man called Jesus son of Joseph.

Whenever students have mentioned these, I always remind them of the old joke about the man from Manchester who meets a man from London in a pub and says "Oh you're from London are you? Do you know Dave?"

Johnny Rottenborough,

"There’s no record of St Peter setting foot in Italy"

What, like a visa form or an airport rent-a-chariot receipt? If you dismiss the the ancient writers who mention it, then no, there is no record. However, if you dismiss ancient writers who mention things then there's no record of an awful lot of the people and events we take for granted in Roman history.

23 April 2014 at 21:32  
Blogger Albert said...

Darter Noster,

if you dismiss ancient writers who mention things then there's no record of an awful lot of the people and events we take for granted in Roman history.

But you are forgetting that the secular mind is always reasonable arbitrarily to raise the bar when it comes to evidence touching religious matters. It must be reasonable for them to do this, because they are not religious and if they didn't they might become religious, and thus irrational.

23 April 2014 at 21:45  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Darter, Happy Jack's not from London but he knows London Dave! What a small world we live in.

And that inscription on the Tomb in Jerusalem, according to the University of the Holy Land, was Simon Bar Zilla or Barzillai".

Now who on earth was he?

23 April 2014 at 21:59  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

I think it is fairly well established that Shakespeare was an American. Now I realize that there is no actual historical evidence that Shakespeare lived on the American Continent, and some might even object that Shakespeare was writing before the founding of Jamestown. But these objections don't take account of the long established American tradition of Shakespeare across the Pond. A brief review of the writings of the Early American Fathers will establish Shakespeare's American lineage beyond dispute.


23 April 2014 at 22:05  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

carl jacobs

What, only Shakespeare? Not St George as well? How disappointing.

23 April 2014 at 22:17  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

It seems Saint George is from Turkey or the Middle East.

23 April 2014 at 22:49  
Blogger Che Yeoh said...

Well, you can't get any more confused than the Scots for patron saints. Ours is a Galilean St Andrew who never set foot in Scotland; only his bones came here, washed up in a storm. An Irishman should have been our national saint,Columba and Ireland's most famous saint, St Patrick, was actually a Scot and came from a very undistinguished place called Dunbarton. I wouldn't mind one that killed a dragon actually. Anyway, Happy St George's Day and I have absolutely no problem with the cross of St George or Shakespeare, even though he did do a hatchet job on Macbeth..

23 April 2014 at 23:10  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Yes I read in the International Business Times that he was from Eastern Turkey born in 270AD.
St George was born to Christian parents in 270 AD in Cappadocia, which is now Eastern Turkey. He moved to Palestine and became a Roman soldier, but later resigned and protested against his pagen leader, Emperor Diocletian, who led the persecution of Christians in Rome.

His rebellion led him to be imprisoned and tortured, but he did not abandon his faith. He was eventually dragged through the streets and was beheaded on 23 April 303 AD

The article
As well as being the patron saint of England, other countries that celebrate St George's Day include: Canada, Croatia, Portugal, Cyprus, Greece, Georgia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the Republic of Macedonia

23 April 2014 at 23:58  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Carl, Happy Jack asks if you can cite source material? He would like to study this little known history of William Shakespeare?

Marie, Saint George sounds stout hearted and true to his faith. May he bestow God's blessings our troubled land.

Che Yeoh, don't forget Saint Ninian. He was the first missionary to Scotland and was a Briton.

24 April 2014 at 00:13  
Blogger Che Yeoh said...

'Don't forget St Ninian'

Yeah, well, the Scots don't really like him because he went to study in Rome and then came back and bossed the natives around. All the ned schools in Scotland are named after him. I think St Trinian's is a variation as well..

24 April 2014 at 00:49  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Saint Ninian's is not really liked because he was a Roman educated missionary. Who did he boss around? It's a Catholic v's Protestant thing with Columba and Iona being preferred to Ninian and Whithorn.

Trinnean is the Gaelic for St Ninian. The motto of the genuine school in Edinburgh named after the saint was: "Solus agus Sonas".

24 April 2014 at 01:33  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

For Len

Hark, hark! I hear
The strain of strutting Chanticleer
Cry, Cock-a-diddle-dow.

24 April 2014 at 05:51  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

I'm for StSt Alban. A real English person and a peaceful martyr. St George is a joke saint.

Still at least St Georges day gives us the chance for a good 'why Oh why?'whinge every year.

Having said that Shakespeare is a fantastic global Englishman we should celebrate.

2 years ago I hosted a roast beef, poetry and ale evening on 23rd April as a sort of answer to Burns night. I commend the practice.

Having said thst

24 April 2014 at 07:18  
Blogger Len said...

All the Worlds a stage and we have seen the players come and go.
Now are the players presenting the works of that Great Creator playwright who wrote the script from the beginning of time or are they presenting their own works?.

lets look at the script and see.

24 April 2014 at 07:58  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Look at all the original Shakespeare manuscripts in the Folger library. That proves Shakespeare was an American.

BY the same token, Gainsborough's 'Blue Boy' is in America, too. That proves Ginsborough was an American.

24 April 2014 at 08:06  
Blogger IanCad said...

Darter Noster @ 21:32.

I can top you on your "Man from Manchester" anecdote.

Years ago, in the US, my wife and I attended some sort of function, after which, a pair of ladies - mother and daughter- approached us.

They had understood that I was from London, and told us that they also knew a man from London, and that, as I sounded just like him, perhaps I might know him.

Needing a little more to go on I enquired as to the gentleman's name, to which query, they were sorry to inform me, they could not remember.

24 April 2014 at 08:19  
Blogger Len said...

Did Shakespeare actually exist at all has anyone seen his birth certificate, has anyone actually seen him.?
Perhaps all the plays were made up by different authors and' Shakespeare' is an invention?.

24 April 2014 at 08:21  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Len @ 08:21

Queen Elizabeth I saw Shakespeare.

But how do we know Queen Elizabeth I existed?

Maybe all the records, pictures etc that say she did are just one vast, cooked-up conspiracy.

24 April 2014 at 08:53  
Blogger Esther Shabo said...

Johnny Rottenborough,

I know, I know, St George wasn't a 'whitey' or an 'Indigenous'; he could even have been a Catholic!! Therefore, I trust a potential BNP government will correct this and revert to a suitable native replacement as we couldn't let it be thought that we have England's national day named after a damnable Johnny foreigner![Although there weren't there a group of British Kings with the name 'George' who were , gasp, German??].

24 April 2014 at 09:37  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Len, HappyJack says that Shakespeare could be very rude!

"Thou mis-shapen dick!

... More of your conversation would infect my brain

... You are not worth another word, else I'd call you knave."

24 April 2014 at 10:35  
Blogger Len said...


Mind your speech a little lest you should mar your fortunes.
William Shakespeare

24 April 2014 at 12:51  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

Jack and Len

Hell is empty and all the devils are here.


24 April 2014 at 13:05  
Blogger Len said...

Heat not a furnace for your foe so hot that it do singe yourself.
William Shakespeare.

I think I am about done here.

24 April 2014 at 13:26  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Albert (18:56)—I know enough to understand the importance of Peter to the RC Church, authenticating it as the original and the best. Accept no imitations, folks.

@ Uncle Brian (21:16)—Assumption and supposition aplenty. Forgive me if I’m not overly impressed.

24 April 2014 at 15:38  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

"Some report a sea-maid spawn’d him; some that he was begot between two stock-fishes. But it is certain that when he makes water his urine is congealed ice."

24 April 2014 at 15:55  
Blogger IanCad said...

Happy Jack,

You're right. Even by the standards of our present indelicate age eyebrows can be raised.

Perhaps a little slack should be granted to Thomas Bowdler.
Here is a sentence from his preface to "The Family Shakspeare" (1807)

Note the above spelling.

"Without incurring the danger of falling unawares among words and expressions which are of such a nature as to raise a blush on the cheek of modesty"

Those were the days!

24 April 2014 at 16:34  
Blogger Albert said...


I know enough to understand the importance of Peter to the RC Church, authenticating it as the original and the best. Accept no imitations, folks.

Well done, but do you know enough to defend your earlier claim?

Assumption and supposition aplenty. Forgive me if I’m not overly impressed.

Okay, so you're not impressed by real historical evidence but you do seem to be impressed by the complete absence of evidence. Forgive me if I'm not impressed.

24 April 2014 at 17:11  
Blogger Oliver Nicholson said...

The problem with S. Peter is surely not that he was buried in Rome, but that he seems to have been buried in two separate places, in the Vatican cemetery and on the Via Appia and that there was apparently some very odd goings-on when the former grave was excavated in the 1950s. There is a very clear minded study of all this in the recent book of Professor Timothy Barnes (now of Edinburgh) on Christian Hagiography and Roman History (hard to get hereabouts because published by Mohr Siebeck in Germany.

26 April 2014 at 05:47  
Blogger Len said...

If Peter ever was in Rome the apostle Paul would have mentioned it in his letter.
The epistle to the' Romans' would then have been written by Peter not by Paul.
None of the church Fathers ever said Peter was 'the Rock' on which the Church was built.Peter only became the rock after the 'donation of Constantine' was found to be a forgery.
The whole thing of Peter founding the RCC is an invention by Catholic theologians grasping at straws to authenticate their claim to be the 'one true Church'...

The bones under the Vatican could literally be any bodies as the Vatican is built on top of a pagan Cemetery.It is suspected that amongst these bones under the Vatican will be those of 'Simon Magus' who desired to start a new religion based on Christian principles but intermingled with his pagan beliefs.

26 April 2014 at 08:50  
Blogger Len said...

"When Justin Martyr wrote [152 A.D.] his Apology, the sect of the Simonians(followers of Simon Magus) appears to have been formidable, for he speaks four times of their founder, Simon; and we need not doubt that he identified him with the Simon of the Acts. He states that he was a Samaritan, adding that his birthplace was a village called Gitta; he describes him as a formidable magician, and tells that he came to ROME in the days of Claudius Caesar (45 A.D.), and made such an impression by his magical powers, THAT HE WAS HONORED AS A GOD, a statue being erected to him on the Tiber, between the two bridges, bearing the inscription ‘Simoni deo Sancto’ (i.e., the holy god Simon)" Dictionary of Christian Biography,
Vol. 4, p. 682).

26 April 2014 at 09:05  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Len, Catholics do not believe Peter established the Church. Jesus established. Read Mathew 16:18.

So Simon Magus was a bad man. And ....?

27 April 2014 at 00:59  
Blogger Len said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

27 April 2014 at 12:06  
Blogger Len said...

Jack,Don`t take my word for it check it out if you really want to know the truth about who you are following?

'Harnack, a church historian, states that Simon Magus "proclaimed a doctrine in which
the Jewish faith was strangely and grotesquely mixed with Babylonian myths,
together with some Greek additions. The mysterious worship ... in consequence of the
widened horizon and the deepening religious feeling, finally the wild syncretism [that
is, blending together of religious beliefs], whose aim WAS A UNIVERSAL RELIGION, all
contributed to gain adherents for Simon" (Vol. 1, p. 244).

The evidence is right before your eyes in the RCC perhaps you cannot see the wood for the trees?

27 April 2014 at 12:17  

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