Friday, May 30, 2014

EUpiscopal dialogue

His Grace was in dialogue yesterday with Bishop Pete Broadbent of Willesden on the vexatious matter of the European Union. The conversation is pieced together below. Please don't be rude about the Bishop; he has at least had the courtesy and inclination to engage with His Grace on some of the important issues raised.





The documents to which Bishop Pete linked may be read HERE, HERE and HERE. Please read them for yourselves, for His Grace has read them (twice - and one is of a thoroughly tedious length) and he cannot see any "small print" which in any sense questions the foundational tenets or political presuppositions of the EU. Indeed, these 'critiques' appear to affirm His Grace's view that the Church of England is institutionally europhile, and the entire Episcopate is, to a man (or, imminently, woman), fervently pro-EU, which is, in their understanding, synonymous with and inseparable from 'Europe'.

Do, please, feel free to shed some light on Bishop Pete's distinction between episcopal scrutiny of policy but of manifestos and programmes "not at all", for His Grace still finds this assertion somewhat incredible in light of remarks about Ukip (which, at the moment, has no manifesto beyond the stated policy of EU secession).

Do the following tweets constitute the scrutiny or critique of policy, or are they a purposeful intervention in the democratic process essentially guiding the electorate toward the view that Ukip is, in effect, anti-Christian?

101 Comments:

Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

I don't know why the Bishop, bless him, is so focused on one issue of racism. No doubt there are racists in each party. I was pretty racist myself several decades back but was brought up short when I married a man with adopted black siblings, and re-formed my attitudes. It is the content of the eyes and the soul that matters to me now.

I am not enthusiastic about vilifying anyone with any racist attitudes, as it would include large numbers of people of all races, most of whom are just a bit inexperienced, undereducated, or have come across some obnoxious examples of a particular race and generalised outwards to a ludicrous extent, sometimes out of genuine trauma.

For me the incoming of immigrant cheap labour from the far ends of wherever to undercut the local workforce is not a question about race, but about fair working conditions. Is there a good reason why wages which allow for a fair standard of living for long term residents (regardless of their race) of this country should be undercut? Do we no longer care about the working poor? Hardly an issue of racism is it, unless one is singing the tune of rich multibillionaires (the 0.1%) who love the cheapest wage costs available for the indebted slave labour work force? Oh, and it is also a matter of preserving our countryside, our wildlife and our wildflowers, which most people here out to make money, and those who will build houses for them have no sensitivity nor care about because it is all about filthy lucre and not about having a soul.

I don't like the original purposes of the Club of Rome which I believe to be still extant, and that William Cooper had it horribly right. I believe that there are people who have had one go at collapsing the world economy, which we saw in 2008, and which the Bishops may have forgotten about. They need to preach the sanity of amilleniallism and preach it fast because there are some dangerous nutcase dispensationalists, neocons and others on the other side working at this moment in tandem to collapse the pillars, albeit for different reasons.

Which is why I voted UKIP; nothing to do with shallow stuff about the colour of the skin.

30 May 2014 at 11:42  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Interesting information, although unsurprising, Your Grace.

The voters who attend Anglican churches will, as before, make up their own minds I believe.

Yes whilst amongst the clergy few support any view other than the BBC type of left/liberal socialism, but the congregants are of an entirely different ilk. They span a mixture of views, as under most roofs in our country. Many lean to conservatism generally.

Those who support Ukip, either because they are dissatisfied with the elite establishment and/or because they have correctly identified the EU as a source of tyranny and undemocratic control, are unlikely to be swayed by the reports or twitterings emanating from either the episcopacy or the clergy generally. As in other areas of national life a gulf has opened up between the top and bottom. I would not over estimate the effect of all this pro-EU misdirection from the bishops on voting patterns. It strikes me that the episcopacy are, with a few notable exceptions, as blind and as misunderstanding of, the political realties facing the country, as of their spiritual responsibilities and priorities. In the meanwhile less evangelism is happening than could be the case, I suggest.

30 May 2014 at 11:48  
Blogger Nath said...

Hmm, is all racisism bad?

One cannot deny the comment regarding Romanians but one cannot deny the fact that Romananians and various other ethinic minorities are disproportionately represented in our prison system.

We are supposed to treat eachother on the merits of our individuality, loving our neighbour as ourself and leaving the gleanings for the sojourners amongst us. But it seems to me that de-coupling the individual from their cultural "narrative" is also an act of violence, as it becomes an attack on their identity - and what if that narrative has an ugly aspect?

Are we Brits not to perpetually repent for our involvement in the slave trade? Narratives are not purely positive affairs and to treat them and those who identify with them respectfully is to acknowledge the good and the bad.


It seems like an intractible problem. One must hold in balance the collective and individual identities in order to respect the person but in doing so one may stray amongst the thorns of racisism.

Jesus may make bad people clean and raise the dead to life but we also live in the reality that keeping the company of bad people will corrupt the good.

30 May 2014 at 11:57  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

I thought the Bible said 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...' Looks like 'Bishop Pete' has a whole sack full of breeze blocks and is not afraid to use them. did you ask him about the oath he took as a bishop re the Supreme Governor of the CofE Your Grace?

30 May 2014 at 12:07  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mrs Proudie,

Best not go there.

Bygones, and all that.

30 May 2014 at 12:12  
Blogger Father David said...

I never thought that I would ever find myself agreeing with the Bishop of Willesden but with regards to the malign influence of UKIP he has hit the nail right on the head in his highly perceptive comments. Mercifully the next General Election is now less than a year away and those who used the Party of the highly over exposed Nigel Farage as a protest vote will return once more to their traditional Party allegiance and Nigel's bubble will burst. In May MMXV I predict that Labour will come first and the Tories second. Maybe with regard to the share of the national vote UKIP could possibly come third but with only a small handful of seats but perhaps more than the Liberal Democrats will be able to muster. The UKIP fox may well gain access to the Westminster hen-house but its presence will be fairly insignificant and highly irrelevant.

30 May 2014 at 12:12  
Blogger Little Black Sambo said...

'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...'
The Bible, and surely Mrs Proudie, say "Let him".

30 May 2014 at 12:19  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Throwing the words Race; racist; racism around without considering the definition and meaning is what is turning people off from politics. Its over-use to the extent that it can mean anything from religion, life-style, nationality, skin colour, is enabling ambiguity.

White skinned English are declared racist if we question any alien culture availing itself of our hospitality then by changing our laws and extending our already generous accommodations if opposed, then seeks to condemn the host.

Where is the White Lawyers Association?

Where is the White Police Officer Association?

Why can Black people but not White people (assuming they wanted to) use the word Nigga without screams of ‘racist’

Why is it OK to be out and proud as ‘young black and beautiful’ or a Scottish Nationalist or a Welsh Nationalist but deemed in no-way to be appropriate to identify as White English Nationalist?

The poll that was recently taken alleging to reveal that a substantial of the population self-declared as having racist tendencies does not identify from its mere 3000 interviews the ethnicity of those polled. This surely is critical. Were they all White? Contain views Afro-Caribbean?; Indian Sub-Continent? Newly absorbed European people?
The facts are not declared but if the media is happy for the majority White British to bear the burden of assumed guilt from the published findings, then as far as UNELECTED multiculturalists are concerned, this is not a problem and suits the agenda just fine but - this is Racism in reverse.

There is overt Racism ordained in the Koran and practiced by many Muslims here and throughout the world, but attracts no criticism from Church or Politicians lest the Muslims take to the streets with the potential for mob violence.

This is why 5 million UKIP voters went to the poll. This is the still quiet voice of the Country outside London. We have had enough of being ignored and insulted by the Churches, Politicians, Media and career Intellectuals feeding off the tolerant nature of British society.

Things MUST change at home and in the EU AND RE-ESTABLISH MEANINGFUL DEMOCRACY.

30 May 2014 at 12:22  
Blogger Ars Hendrik said...

Father David

Political parties take years to build up representation in the Commons and no one is predicting that UKIP will sweep the board at the next General Election; indeed, a showing of two or three MPs would be an astonishing achievement at this stage.

What UKIP has done is build the party up from the ground, slowly and patiently – firstly in councils and then in the EU. It has been remarkably successful in doing this.

Farage, a remarkably astute politician, knows that this is a very long game. Her also knows how to measure success. The test for UKIP now is not whether or not its trouncing of the other parties in the European election can extend to the General Election next year, but rather whether or not it can provide a credible and comprehensive manifesto.

I also think you are wrong to assume that 'protest' voters will dutifully return to the fold. I suspect not.

30 May 2014 at 12:32  
Blogger Philip said...

Again, what does Bishop Pete say about political parties that are full of politicians that advocate the "right" to slaughter children (inc unborn ones)? He wouldn't be a member of such a party, surely?

30 May 2014 at 12:34  
Blogger MFH said...

Will the bishop tweet against the anti christian Islam?

thought not

30 May 2014 at 12:34  
Blogger john in cheshire said...

What is this sodding racism he keeps going on about? He sounds like an obsessive on the subject; or just uses it like all socialists do, to tarnish those who have different views from the socialist dogma that steeps their every view of everything in the world. I suggest again that the man is a socialist and therefore can't be a Christian.

30 May 2014 at 12:41  
Blogger William Lewis said...

Father David

"The UKIP fox may well gain access to the Westminster hen-house but its presence will be fairly insignificant but highly irrelevant."

Your prediction for the next election may well be prescient, but how can you say that, on the one hand UKIP are malign and (as you agree with +Pete) unacceptable, and on the other hand that their presence in the House would be highly irrelevant?

I know that Westminster is little more than a rubber-stamping institution with a lucrative expenses system, but to say that the presence (however small) of a malign and unacceptable party in Westminster is irrelevant seems rather bizzare, not to say blase´.

30 May 2014 at 12:51  
Blogger Father David said...

Well Ars, there is some merit in what you have written but I am old enough to remember the ground swell of support that built up behind the SDP when they broke away from the Labour Party but where are they now? If you recall they were a Gang of Four (Jenkins, Owen, Williams & Rogers) whereas Farage is a One Man Band. The SDP has now simply drained away into the sands of history and the same will inevitably happen to UKIP. The Labour Party was big enough and strong enough to survive the rebellion and is currently in a good position to be able to form the next Government.
The next test will be on Thursday with the Newark poll. This is essentially now a three horse Tory, Labour, UKIP race (had Mr. Farage not been "frit" and had he entered the fray he might well have triumphed) but hopefully UKIP will take away sufficient votes from the Tories to bring about a Labour victory. But, as I say, there are three possible victors and who will be first past the post next Thursday is anyone's guess.

30 May 2014 at 12:53  
Blogger Flossie said...

A recent episode of The Big Questions asked 'is the Church of England institutionally racist?' (The assumption seemed to be that yes, it was.)

Sadly The People's Pete was not among the audience so we will not hear what he has to say about that, but it was interesting that the lady who stated that all races were welcome in churches but that people tend to stick with their own kind (which they do) was almost booed, yet the Coalition of BLACK Atheists (not very inclusive!) were greeted with nodding approval.

I was fortunate enough to be at GAFCON I in Jerusalem, and much of the worship was vibrant African-style. Even a stuffy old English traddie like me thoroughly enjoyed it, but one can see why Africans do not go much on staid English services. Racism? I think not.

I don't see anything wrong with wanting to hang on to our own culture. I think Bishop Pete is being silly.



30 May 2014 at 12:55  
Blogger Peter C said...

Theory: If UKIPs policy of restricting immigrants is racist, then all parties are racist.

The proof runs like this...
No party want to allow unfettered access to the UK from anywhere in the world (eg Africa).
Therefore all parties want some restriction on immigration and are therefore racist by definition.

The argument is only over the degree of access, and all parties (even extreme Liberals) want some restriction, so perhaps should consider the illogicality of calling UKIP racist.

30 May 2014 at 13:00  
Blogger Father David said...

William, can you kindly tell me what possible good the presence of the newly elected UKIP MEPs will make in the European Parliament as they are absolutely and totally against everything that parliament stands for?
If Mr. Farage is elected as M. P. for Grimsby, or Great Yarmouth or the Isle of Thanet at next year's General Election I cannot for the life of me see what positive contribution he will be able to make in the House of Commons but will gladly seek to be so enlightened. Just look at George Galloway, marginalised, ostracised and totally irrelevant. The same fate will await Nigel if ever he manages to secure a seat in the Mother of Parliaments.

30 May 2014 at 13:04  
Blogger Len said...

The reason that some political parties with radical views are gaining power and credibility with the electorate(those who can be bothered to vote) is because the main political parties in Europe are not listening to the concerns of the majority.This could be because of the danger of being labelled ' a racist' under the' politically Correct Code,' so we have to rely on an anonymous vote to tell politicians what we really think!.
Racism is bad!. Being concerned about how many people can crowd themselves onto an Island and the management of the said finite resources of this Island is not racism!. Please politicians and commentators on political matters learn to differentiate between racism and concern over unrestricted immigration!.
There are parallels between Europe in the 1930`s and the current situation and politicians need to address these.The EU has become more like a dictatorship than a democracy and it is because of this that a more radical approach is being taken by the electorate to make the leaders in the EU listen to the concerns of the people they are supposed to represent.
This is a situation where radical political parties are exploiting the distrust and the disaffection of the electorate with the EU and a radical change of approach to the electorate is needed by those running the EU.

30 May 2014 at 13:04  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

I bow to Your Grace's wisdom and infinite forgiveness...

30 May 2014 at 13:16  
Blogger William Lewis said...

David

"... can you kindly tell me what possible good the presence of the newly elected UKIP MEPs will make in the European Parliament as they are absolutely and totally against everything that parliament stands for?"

Certainly. They will act as a brake against the designs of the unelected bureaucrats who seek to uphold everything and anything the parliament stands for, whether the people will it or no.

"I cannot for the life of me see what positive contribution he [Nutty Nigel] will be able to make in the House of Commons but will gladly seek to be so enlightened."

Your gladness is a credit to you Sir. Allow me to so enlighten. He will speak the truth of the common man to the House and he (and whoever may be, God willing, elected with him) will represent a significant proportion of the population who have been under repesented for too long by our complacent, identikit politicians. A proportion of the population that George Galloway can but dream about.

30 May 2014 at 13:23  
Blogger Father David said...

Surely, Olivia, the Bishop of Willesden has served his time of suspension from duties for his unfortunate remarks concerning the possible duration of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge's marriage. I think that a spirit of Christian forgiveness should now be the order of the day. Least said soonest mended.

30 May 2014 at 13:26  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear Father David. No. I think not.

30 May 2014 at 13:36  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

And it's Augusta...or not, as the case may be.

30 May 2014 at 13:42  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

It was ironic to read that the CoE considers the purpose of politics to be the promotion of human flourishing. I wonder how much flourishing one finds in Greece these days as it is ground into dust for the benefit of German fiscal policy. It strikes me that the EU is inevitably morphing itself into a metastasized version of the Austro-Hungarian Empire - except the Emperor resides in Berlin and not Vienna.

But of course the utopian vision at the heart of Europe is not the formation of a brittle and weak Empire. At least not for the bishops. Their logic seems to be:

1. Nations cause wars.
2. To prevent war, we must submerge the nations.
3. The EU is the means by which to submerge nations.

But that means the old loyalties must be broken down. A Romanian must become to a Brit what a Virginian is to a New Yorker. Borders must be open to diffuse the nationalities amongst each other Europe can only emerge to the extent that the nations the compose it disappear.

Someone should tell this to the Germans.

Anyways. This is an excellent example of why church leadership should stay the hell out of politics. The CoE doesn't need a position on Europe. It needs to get about doing the task it was intended to do. You know. Evangelize. Preach. Teach. Disciple.

People in England don't listen to the Bishops in the CoE on matters of religion. Why should anyone bother with its position on Europe?

carl

carl

30 May 2014 at 13:49  
Blogger Father David said...

Well, William, I think you will agree that Nigel and his motley crew haven't been a very effective brake on what the E, U. is trying to achieve. For all his years as an MEP Mr. Farage hasn't put a stop to anything, his presence hasn't madea happ'oth of difference. Although, of course, he has collected far more than that in expenses. One contribution that he has made is to have been unquestionably rude and discourteous to certain E. U. Officials.
I'm not sure that you quite understand our system of parliamentary democracy. One of the glories of the Church of England is that every square inch of our nation is in someone's parish. Similarly every square inch of the U. K. & N. I. is in some M. P's constituency and so whoever is elected represents us at Westminster. We may not like the political colour of our own particular M. P. but we can seek to lobby our elected representatives on whatever issue we bring before them. Thank God we shall all have the opportunity and freedom to exercise our democratic duty next May. Although your reference to speaking the truth in connection with certain politicians unfortunately doesn't alas always seem to match in reality.

30 May 2014 at 14:04  
Blogger Father David said...

Well, Mrs. Proudie, I presume that you know your own name, or not! All I can suggest is that you approach Wikipedia where under "Barchester Towers" you are clearly referred to as "Mrs. Olivia Proudie". Failing that the only other thing I can suggest is a very strong letter to The Jupiter with your signature appended.

30 May 2014 at 14:13  
Blogger grumpyoldcl said...

Father David, I think you are a little mistaken. There have been at least two attempts that I am aware of in which the EU have proposed a hierarchy of the human rights pushing religious freedom to the bottom, both of which have been rejected and in which Messrs. Farage et al. have participated. There has also been two attempts to make abortion a human right, both of which have been similarly voted down. Therefore Messrs Farage et al have already had some effect.

30 May 2014 at 14:27  
Blogger grumpyoldcl said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

30 May 2014 at 14:27  
Blogger William Lewis said...

David

"Well, William, I think you will agree that Nigel and his motley crew haven't been a very effective brake on what the E, U. is trying to achieve. For all his years as an MEP Mr. Farage hasn't put a stop to anything, his presence hasn't madea happ'oth of difference. Although, of course, he has collected far more than that in expenses. One contribution that he has made is to have been unquestionably rude and discourteous to certain E. U. Officials."

It seems clear to me that his antics in Europe have been more about highlighting what is going on there to the people at home. For good or ill he is a consummate politician and he knows that here is where he will gain most traction and it finally appears, for now, to be moving.

"I'm not sure that you quite understand our system of parliamentary democracy. ..."

Our parliamentary democracy is, of course, a combination of local representation and party political allegiance and ideology.

30 May 2014 at 14:43  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

but I prefer Augusta...

30 May 2014 at 14:44  
Blogger IanCad said...

If only, but if only, we had this means of communication during Reformation times.
How much blood would have been saved!

30 May 2014 at 14:58  
Blogger Nick said...

UKIP trades on dissatisfaction?

That's the nature of democracy. If you think the current administration are screwing up, you vote for someone else. That's how politics has always been, so it seems a fatuous remark for the bishop to make. The alternative is a group of disenfranchised, unrepresented people with nobody taking thteir grievances seriously. That's a recipe for revolution. Or is the bishop saying it is wrong to be dissatisfied? If Westminster only traded on satisfaction it would go out of business pretty quickly

30 May 2014 at 14:59  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Proudie, Mrs

in Oxford Reader's Companion to Trollope

January 1999; published online January 2011.

Reference Entry. Subjects: literary studies (19th century). 497 words.

Mrs Proudie (she has no Christian name) is the Sabbatarian wife of Bishop Proudie, and, as niece of a

Go to Oxford Reference » home page

30 May 2014 at 15:03  
Blogger Len said...

UKIP has become a voice of protest to the EU and its dictatorial manner of dealing with people.
Where does the Church stand in regard to the EU?. Has the Church made a stand against abortion & SSM and how is the Church making its case against anti Christian agenda within the EU? Or is the Church so tied into the EU that they are afraid to make a stand as Christians?.
Has Bishop Pete (and others) got any answers and if any what are they?.
The Church seems so obsessed with trivia (dressing up in pointy hats & dresses and such like) that real issues just go over their heads?.

30 May 2014 at 15:45  
Blogger David Hussell said...

As Dreadnaught has explained @ 12.22 the word "racism" is now meaningless, little more than an ill-defined insult, a stick for socialists who hate traditional British culture and belief systems to hit over the head of anyone who dares to express support for their own culture. In fact all peoples, the world over, prefer their own culture, which is merely human nature, not a manifestation of some deep loathing for other races, cultures and peoples.
The same language trick is used by the equally ridiculous word "homophobia". I have met no one who actually hates or fears those that experience sexual attraction for the same sex. But I have met many people, some of whom are Christians, who hold well reasoned, principled views based on moral codes often rooted in their own faiths, and as well as those established on the basic science and biology of human beings and the psychological needs of growing children.

Those who think, not just react, should refuse to play with these word tricks designed merely to wrong foot the opposition before any discussion can even start. We must challenge assumptions and definitions before engaging in discussions, to expose those word games for what they truly are - just clever tricks !

30 May 2014 at 16:06  
Blogger David Hussell said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

30 May 2014 at 16:06  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

Interesting interview with Nigel Farage, which at the time of me writing this is their most recent. Longer audio interview to be released shortly.

He is of course no lightweight in finance, though not many seem aware of this.

30 May 2014 at 16:13  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

Sorry that should have read "interesting interview on "King WOrld News" which is of course an internet financial news and opinion site.

30 May 2014 at 16:15  
Blogger Rasher Bacon said...

Thanks, YG

I hope this isn't seen as rude, but I tried to read some of the material Pete linked to, and found that it's the sort of thing that would swiftly get people made redundant in any commercial setting, failing the test of a meaningful return on time spent. I submit in evidence, exhibit A:

The Basle Assembly stressed the
interconnectedness of some of the most complex, but pressing challenges of the day, arguing that only through collaborative action could these problems be resolved. The ecumenical vision and unity witnessed at Basle
was confirmed by a special meeting of church leaders in April 1990.


Jolly hockey sticks

While church leaders from across Europe recognised the genuine
aspirations of national identity they stressed that "churches should proclaim the overall Lordship of Christ in relationships both between
Christians and nations."


That one at least is, as you say an endorsement and there is no word of critique within it, other than of people who oppose the opportunity.

There's nothing measurable about the outcomes or conclusions. Therefore, I reckon more than £10,000 has been wasted and could have been given to the North Korean Christians. But then maybe I'm just a Judas who objects to the showering of resources on this new occupant of the central shrine.

30 May 2014 at 16:35  
Blogger Albert said...

I take my hat off to Bishop Pete for getting stuck in - although I doubt he and I would agree on things.

One tweet stuck out for me, the one where he says UKIP are unacceptable. I wonder which is more offensive to heaven, the (alleged) racism of UKIP or the pro-abortion policies of the parties in general?

Surely, one should begin with very first principles when judging political parties. For anyone who does not know the kind of thing I mean, a quotation from the Confessing Church, in 1943 should suffice:

The State is not entrusted with the power to take away life, except in the case of criminals or war-time enemies

30 May 2014 at 16:41  
Blogger Owl said...

Father David,

I am wondering more and more about your agenda.

You keep trying to talk down UKIP without any reason except your superficial claim that people only voted for them due to their stance on the EU.

If you would take the time to talk to some of the people who voted for them, you might find that this goes far, far deeper.

It has to do with integrity, honesty and basic common sense which our current three parties seem to lack almost totally.

Of course this is a protest vote!

We are protesting that we no longer have a say in what our corrupt politicians do. We are tired of getting the choice between three puppets but the same puppet master.

We want democracy back.

Your tired remarks concerning the outcome of the next general election only show that you "still don't get it".

Your comparisons with the SPD are totally irrelavant as their are none. The SPD didn't come from the people but UKIP did.

I just wonder when some people will even begin to understand. UKIP as representatives of the Brits are not going to go away.

At least you are in good company, the Bishops still don't get it and the proponents of the NWO don't get it.

Well tough, as we Brits DO get it!

30 May 2014 at 17:33  
Blogger Shadrach said...

Bishop Pete must have been a student of Goebbels. Tell a lie often enough and people will believe it.

Len @ 15:45. Very concise summation of the situation. Why are they meddling in things they don't understand and have no influence when they don't do what they should do and could have some influence.

Any one know where Father David has his monastic cell and has all the time in the world to comment his superficial views of Christianity all day long?

30 May 2014 at 17:36  
Blogger Father David said...

Dear Mrs????? Proudie,
Further research suggests that Chapter 4 of Framley Parsonage names your eldest daughter as Olivia. It suggests that there were softer feelings than friendship between her and Mr. Slope but when he discovered that prior to his preferment your husband's means were limited he withdrew his affections and "a mutual bond of inveterate hatred" resulted.
Surely your own preference for the name Augusta is far, far too Roman for such an English Rose as yourself?

30 May 2014 at 17:47  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Lucy Mullen said...

Interesting interview with Nigel Farage [. . .] He is of course no lightweight in finance, though not many seem aware of this.

30 May 2014 16:13


I think the anti-Ukip crew (to borrow Bishop Broadbent's terminology) are only too well aware of his successful professional background in financial markets. That is one of the main reasons why the prospect of his achieving political power fills them with fear and trembling.

30 May 2014 at 18:47  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Father David @ 14.04

Having just returned from viewing the Lincoln copy of Magna Carta, I felt in the mood to counter your strange claim that Ukip has achieved nothing much, anywhere, and indeed, is unlikely to achieve much in the future. So far the infant party has achieved this much, if not more : -

1. The collapse of the BNP vote. A moderate right of centre anti-europe party is now available to represent patriots. Recognising the risks in this, former BNP members are debarred from becoming Ukip members.
2. Millions of British people, disillusioned with the almost identical elite establishment parties, who have never voted before or ceased voting decades ago, have found a voice for their democratic right to participate in elections, thus building social inclusion, a very healthy thing indeed.
3. Social cohesion is being built also by the creation of a party comprising all elements in society, middle class and working class, which is outside the armed services, an almost unique process in our all too stratified society with its unhealthy, unthinking tribal loyalties.
4. In the north of England, and even Wales and Scotland a genuine choice is now available to voters. This is a great boon to local as well as higher level democracy.
5. Ukip has exposed how similar the three political parties are, thus sending them all into a flat spin. The sham of no real choice has been exposed.
6. Voters can contrast the smooth, even mendacious words of the establishment elite, with their ever changing, morphing before ones very eyes promises, with a blunt, crisp truthful approach from Ukip politicians which again reveals the extent of the near deceit that has become the norm in our tired three party system. This return to plain speaking is all too much for the metropolitan elite, many of whom can spout for hours and never say anything definite, indeed they build careers on it. The C of E has form in that area of non-communication too I believe. Clarity should replace obfuscation, if the deep cynicism in our society is to be rolled back. A return to "saying it as it is" has to be good for integrity and honesty.
7. The true nature of the EU , a corrupt, deliberately non-democratic system, is being remorselessly exposed by Ukip's speeches in the EU parliament, and elsewhere, conveyed to millions by U-Tube.
8. Politics is returning to the people. Instead of hiding behind television screens. Farage and company go "out on the stump", using old fashioned "talk to the people" techniques the length and breadth of the land, thus going over the heads of the monopolistic BBC. In the early days, before the BBC caught up with the reality of Ukip's appeal, this was particularly important.
9. For the first time in decades the comfortable consensus form of politics has been broken, and democracy has come alive again, a fact evidenced by the passions that are emerging. This is very healthy for a democracy at risk of death by alienation and apathy.
I have listed some of the achievements as they have sprung into my mind. No doubt I have missed others.
But most of all Ukip has awoken our nation to its long history and struggle for democracy, not achieved until 1929. Almost a thousand years of slow evolution towards national democracy, has been endangered by an elite, almost secret project, built upon deceptions and near lies. Our ancient freedoms are under attack and it is mainly Ukip that points to the essential need to protect that.

30 May 2014 at 18:52  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Owl @ 17.33

Quite !

I too am wondering what it is that Father David believes in, apart from mounting an attack on Ukip ?

As you say "we want democracy back".

I would add,

"I want my country back".

It has been stolen from the people by deceits. Nothing good and wholesome has ever been built on lies. Our membership of the EU is founded on lies.

30 May 2014 at 19:00  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

An appreciation of the different races we now have in our midst is a healthy one. Used as a rule of thumb, you know where you are with people. You see, their differing characteristics to ours really do identify them in behaviour. This man really does enjoy racial stereotypes, they’re great fun - so telling, accurate, and dare it be said – amusing !

Though the Inspector is rather easy with the concept of race, he’s always suspected that those who get annoyed to hysteria, for example, the types who nearly faint when they hear Pakistani shortened to Paki are the ones who secretly harbour, well, let’s put it as some form of repulsion or knowing that the Pakistani is indeed different, and they seek to overcome their embarrassment, or maybe even self identified failing within themselves. To stifle their inner demon, if you will, with a faux outrage they feel is the most appropriate to redeem themselves from their imagined thought sin.

One last word. Don’t think the white man is alone when it comes to racial profiling. Those brown lads are the masters at it, don’t you know. And that’s all this indolent white dog of a kaffir has to say…

Pip ! Pip !

30 May 2014 at 19:32  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...



One last thing…

You bishops here – hands up any who have lived in immigrant communities. Yes, we know they built bishops palaces next to cathedrals and not some sink estate miles away, but you weren’t always bishops, were you !

What, nobody at all ?

Ah, you at the back, step forward Sir. What was that you said, “You nearly did but your wife said the best schooling prospect for the children was to live in one of the white areas of town.”

Now just a moment, they do have schools in immigrant areas too, you know.

Granted, I have heard that English is taught as a foreign language in these establishment, but isn’t that a somewhat racist attitude in multicultural times.

I agree, I don’t know what it’s like to be married to your wife.

I can imagine hell hath no fury like your missus disobeyed.

No brother I condemn you not. And I agree, exposure to Jamaican patois doesn’t do much for employment prospects.

You are probably right, you don’t need much schooling if you are black, and the prison education system is a marvel for those who wish to make up for lost years. And yes, all Pakistani’s need to read are road signs they’ll encounter in their taxis.

Oh for God’s sake, what are you angry about now. Oh, you didn’t want the last three points read out, you say.

{AHEM} Look at the time, one must be going…







30 May 2014 at 19:32  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Oh...Inspector...I think I want your babies....

30 May 2014 at 19:43  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Steady on, madam, control yourself !

30 May 2014 at 19:51  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Augusta

30 May 2014 at 19:53  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Oh dear Inspector forgive me...a momentary lapse...too much elderflower wine I fear...I am all of a fluster now...

30 May 2014 at 20:08  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Lucy Mullen @ 16.15

Thank you for alerting me to the existence of King World News - interesting content.

30 May 2014 at 20:18  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

You must forgive the Inspector Mrs Proudie, you startled him.

However, he does feel the incident has allowed him to ‘move closer’ to you in a strictly Platonic way, you understand.

Oh Lord, one feels a song coming on – how unnecessary....

A shower, cold, one off, is due methinks.

Toodle pip. Until this man can stand naked and dripping before you. Your screen image, of course...

30 May 2014 at 20:32  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...


Father David

"William, can you kindly tell me what possible good the presence of the newly elected UKIP MEPs will make in the European Parliament as they are absolutely and totally against everything that parliament stands for?"

Interesting.

So any views that are contrary to the majority view are not worthy simply because they are a minority viewpoint

Spoken like a true member of "most" of the CofE Synod.

Just be cause a majority decides, does not make it right.

Perhaps in you worldview, views other than the majority should not even be heard.

Certainly not worthy of any respect.

Again, just like the Synod.

Phil

30 May 2014 at 21:17  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Inspector, Mrs Proudie,

It's getting a bit, ahem... (as the Inspector would say) it's getting a bit, ahem.... steamy here....

According to ... Albert, who is usually right.......there could be ..... "repressed utilitarians" about.

As a possible suspect for the said, ahem, condition?, epithet ? spare a thought.....there's a good pair (?)

30 May 2014 at 21:23  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

You are quite correct David .but let us not forget that Mrs Proudie’s temporary lapse was due to strong drink.

Tomorrow is Saturday, and this man will make it his business to go to church halls where the young congregate and warn them of the evils drink can bestow, most especially upon women. A side that the Inspector rather keeps to himself is that he often does missionary work on attractive young ladies whenever he can, to help them save themselves, that is.


30 May 2014 at 21:55  
Blogger Albert said...

Inspector...I think I want your babies

I hadn't realised the Inspector had had any babies. S/he is obviously an even more modern Catholic than I had realised.

30 May 2014 at 22:09  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear Albert...s/he? Definitely a she let me assure you... Yes a little oo much wine, but the point I was trying to make was one of total accord with the Inspector's points...rather outre now I think about it - fortunately my Lord is away on a an ecumenical visit to Qatar...

30 May 2014 at 22:44  
Blogger bluedog said...

David Hussell @ 18.52 said, 'But most of all Ukip has awoken our nation to its long history and struggle for democracy, not achieved until 1929. Almost a thousand years of slow evolution towards national democracy, has been endangered by an elite, almost secret project, built upon deceptions and near lies.'

Excellent! This communicant recently read comment by a Tory politician (can't remember who) saying that the rise of Ukip represented the return of John Bull. Now there's a hint of admiration and respect in that comment, and John has been asleep far too long. His awakening, and that of the comely Jane Bull, will be what saves Britain.

If this communicant remembers rightly, JB's response to unwelcome instruction from foreign princes was usually blunt and to the point.

30 May 2014 at 22:46  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Inspector,

Ah yes, one wouldn't want to be, um, too hard, as it were, on the good lady, now there's a good chap.

Good luck with this weekend's, ahem, missionary work Inspector - dashed dangerous assignments to, by the sound of them, by jove.

Time for us "repressed utilitarians" to be abed.

30 May 2014 at 22:52  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Jolly good show Mrs Proudie. One will attempt to get you into the Ministry of Education, by way of a Baroness-ship. Feel free to make the Inspector’s thoughts part of the National Curriculum.

Might one ask – are you of Pakistani descent by chance. It might speed things up a little...

30 May 2014 at 22:55  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Are you teaching them the missionary position, Inspector?

30 May 2014 at 22:56  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Naughty naughty boy Mr Inspector. No Pakistani descent here, I am the niece of an earl and wife of a bishop, as British as Mr Miliband....But a seat in the Lords would be just spiffing/

30 May 2014 at 23:12  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Fear not Mrs Proudie, don’t let your being born a Briton discourage you.

Any old cow can put in for Baroness these days, it seems, if her political masters find there is capital to be had from it.

Oh Lord ! What have I said. One does believe he may have ’blown the gaff’...

30 May 2014 at 23:19  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Take notice all ye who dwell on Cranmer

Any connection the living, dead, yet to be born or the sadly soon to be aborted has with the drivel the Inspector has come out with this night is purely coincidental. It did not happen – see ?

Prize winners will be notified by post, and the Inspector regrets that no correspondence will be entered into....

Good night.


30 May 2014 at 23:42  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Happy Jack believes 'men of the cloth' should conduct themselves with dignity and a
degree of circumspection when discussing those matters political on which we are entitled to disagree. Europe is one such matter. They should also not stoop to low tactics by misrepresenting one of the parties. Christ is their role model.

In matters spiritual, it is another matter. They should speak with authority and directness about unalterable Christian truths and shepherd those entrusted to their care. Again, Christ is their role model.

If Bishop Pete (a shortened version that Jack loathes of the very fine name Peter) wants to influence the temporal world then he should say more about the birth, death and resurrection of Christ and the Christian teachings on pre-marital sex, abortion, divorce and homosexuality. These are the real threats to our long term future. He should say a little less on a political party he really seems to know little about.

31 May 2014 at 00:31  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Mrs Proudie, Happy Jack thinks the good Bishop is in for a night of fun after the Inspector aroused you passions so.

Jack is trying to think of a suitable name for you. Olivia means "olive tree" and in the Bible this is a symbol of fruitfulness, beauty, and dignity. Augusta means "great, magnificent".

What about Augusta-Olivia, meaning: Mrs "magnificent, beautiful and dignified" Proudie?

(Given your earlier comment to the Inspector, Jack thought it wise to omit 'fruitfulness'.)

31 May 2014 at 01:15  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Ps
Or, alternatively, and in strictest confidence, Happy Jack could just call you "Honey Hobnob".

*chuckle*

31 May 2014 at 01:29  
Blogger Father David said...

"Oh...Inspector...I think I want your babies...."

What a Trollop(e) !!!

31 May 2014 at 07:02  
Blogger Father David said...

"Oh...Inspector...I think I want your babies...."

What a Trollop(e) !!!

31 May 2014 at 07:02  
Blogger Father David said...

"Oh...Inspector...I think I want your babies...."

What a Trollop(e) !!!

31 May 2014 at 07:02  
Blogger Albert said...

Mrs Proudie,

Dear Albert...s/he? Definitely a she let me assure you...

It wasn't you I was referring to, but the Inspector.

31 May 2014 at 09:14  
Blogger Len said...

I see the Catholic contingent need to be moved to 'the side room' without delay so they can continue their ramblings without disturbing the saner members of the bog.

31 May 2014 at 10:41  
Blogger Cam Ma said...

I am profoundly grateful to Bishop "Pete" - he helped me finally to make up my mind and to join UKIP. I am now the proud holder of a UKIP membership card.

31 May 2014 at 10:46  
Blogger Albert said...

Len,

In view of the fact that the discussion you are referring to has mainly been between Protestants (Fr David, Mrs Proudie) and the Inspector (not a straight forward Catholic, by any means), I think your comment rather exposes you to the charge of confirmation bias.

31 May 2014 at 10:56  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Len
" ... members of the bog."

There is a lifeline out, if you choose to take a hold of it.

*chuckle*

31 May 2014 at 11:12  
Blogger Len said...

I think 'bog' might apply in your case Dodo?.
What the 'l'

31 May 2014 at 12:06  
Blogger Len said...

So the Inspector is out of the Roman thing then ?. Does he know?.
There is hope for him yet?.

31 May 2014 at 12:10  
Blogger William Lewis said...

Albert

"...(not a straight forward Catholic, by any means)..."

To be fair to Len, it can be quite difficult to determine if someone is a straight forward Catholic or not on this blog.

31 May 2014 at 12:22  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Sod off Len

31 May 2014 at 12:45  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

31 May 2014 at 12:45  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Good afternoon, Inspector. One trusts you slept peacefully after yesterday's antics.

*chuckle*

One suspects Mrs Proudie is taking a long walk to clear her head.

31 May 2014 at 13:15  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

William Lewis

"To be fair to Len, it can be quite difficult to determine if someone is a straight forward Catholic or not on this blog."

Happy Jack says Catholicism is not straight forward. It does not lend itself to the simple stereotypes some may wish to apply to it.

31 May 2014 at 13:19  
Blogger William Lewis said...

Happy Jack

"Happy Jack says Catholicism is not straight forward."

On that I think we can all agree.

31 May 2014 at 13:34  
Blogger Albert said...

William,

To be fair to Len, it can be quite difficult to determine if someone is a straight forward Catholic or not on this blog.

Yes, but even so, at least half of those Len is branding as Catholics are Protestants.

31 May 2014 at 14:15  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

I think also it is wrong to suggest that Catholic Anglicans could belong under the Protestant label. We will lump them together with Catholics as they wish to play on your team and in your team kit!!

We give them to you. Certain of them are yours to bob up and down and pirouette in defence and make jokes when they let the goals whistle past their ears.

We will claim Mrs Proudie as an Anglican however, as she can give the balls a hefty whack with her feet.

Incidentally on that note watch out Inspector lest you don't know what you are getting into!

31 May 2014 at 14:25  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

@ David H 20.18
Glad you find it interesting. They have now released the audio interview of Nigel Farage. I was interested to hear that when he went to the European Parlt. they were speaking as if nothing had happened and that it was still assumed to be full steam ahead towards further integration.

So it seems you put one set of hands over your eyes, and another set over your ears, and use another set to do whatever you intended to anyway with this monstrosity, but it cannot be sustainable.

Let us hope it breaks up without blood on the streets- (most likely Greece or Spain)- as the people will ultimately not stand for being ignored.

31 May 2014 at 14:36  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Lucy
"I think also it is wrong to suggest that Catholic Anglicans could belong under the Protestant label. We will lump them together with Catholics as they wish to play on your team and in your team kit!!

We give them to you."


A rather strange proposition. The Anglican faith, as Happy Jack understands it, is 'Catholic and Reformed'.

The Church of England website has an article headed: An Ancient Church, catholic and reformed. Here's an extract:

"What has remained constant, however, has been the Church's commitment to the faith 'uniquely revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds,' its maintenance of the traditional three fold order of ministry, and its determination to bring the grace of God to the whole nation through word and sacrament in the power of the Holy Spirit."

It also goes on to describe different traditions in the Church:

"The history of the Church of England from the 18th century onwards has been enriched by the co-existence within it of three broad traditions, the Evangelical, the Catholic and the Liberal.

• The Evangelical tradition has emphasized the significance of the Protestant aspects of the Church of England's identity, stressing the importance of the authority of Scripture, preaching, justification by faith and personal conversion.

• The Catholic tradition, strengthened and reshaped from the 1830s by the Oxford movement, has emphasized the significance of the continuity between the Church of England and the Church of the Early and Medieval periods. It has stressed the importance of the visible Church and its sacraments and the belief that the ministry of bishops, priests and deacons is a sign and instrument of the Church of England's Catholic and apostolic identity.

• The Liberal tradition has emphasized the importance of the use of reason in theological exploration. It has stressed the need to develop Christian belief and practice in order to respond creatively to wider advances in human knowledge and understanding and the importance of social and political action in forwarding God's kingdom."

31 May 2014 at 14:50  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

@ Happy Jack

Albert at 10.56 referred to Fr David as not being part of the Catholic contingent, but a Protestant. I was merely observing, in a humorous way, that Anglican Catholics, and particularly those for whom vestments and lace are very important, would never ever describe themselves as Protestant. Indeed for many it is a word spoken with a degree of disgust. They would consider themselves as much of a Catholic as you. As for how much they regard themselves as Anglicans that varies from 100% down to 49%, as I guess once it gets down to 48% they jump ship.

31 May 2014 at 15:16  
Blogger Albert said...

Lucy Mullen,

There's an old Anglo-catholic saying: "Scratch the surface of an Anglo-catholic and you'll find a Protestant." Why? Read this - go right to the end:

The Ultra-Catholic

(By the Revd Dr. E. L. Mascall)



I am an Ultra-Catholic-No ‘Anglo-,’ I beseech you,

You’ll find no trace of heresy in anything I teach you.

The clergyman across the road has whiskers and a bowler,

But I wear buckles on my shoes and sport a feriola.



My alb is edged with deepest lace, spread over rich black satin;

The Psalms of David I recite in heaven’s own native Latin,

And, though I don’t quite understand those awkward moods and tenses,

My ordo recitandi’s strict Westmonasteriensis.



I teach the children in my school the Penny Catechism,

Explaining how the C. of E.’s in heresy and schism.

The truths of Trent and Vatican I bate not one iota.

I have not met the Rural Dean. I do not pay my quota.



The Bishop’s put me under his ‘profoundest disapproval’

And, though he cannot bring about my actual removal,

He will not come and visit me or take my confirmations.

Colonial prelates I employ from far-off mission-stations.



The music we perform at Mass is Verdi and Scarlatti.

Assorted females form the choir; I wish they weren’t so catty.

Two flutes, a fiddle and a harp assist them in the gallery.

The organist left years ago, and so we save his salary.



We’ve started a ‘Sodality of John of San Fagondez,’

Consisting of the five young men who serve High Mass on Sundays;

And though they simply will not come to weekday Mass at seven,

They turn out looking wonderful on Sundays at eleven.



The Holy Father I extol in fervid perorations,

The Cardinals in Curia, the Sacred Congregations;

And, though I’ve not submitted yet, as all my friends expected,

I should have gone last Tuesday week, had not my wife objected.

31 May 2014 at 15:32  
Blogger Albert said...

Lucy,

I guess once it gets down to 48% they jump ship

Not so. The Anglo-papalists tend to stay. As one Anglo-catholic put it to me once "I always knew the Church of England was rubbish, so I can't lose anything."

31 May 2014 at 15:34  
Blogger Father David said...

Dear Lucy, thank you for that most perceptive correction, I would indeed refer to myself as Catholic and also a loyal son of the Church of England. I do don the Eucharistic vestments but do not possess a centimetre of lace. I would also claim to be 100% Anglican and have been from the cradle. It is indeed an honour to be bracketed together with Mrs. Proudie by Albert but I think that we may well hold different views on the nature of Established Church, however, I would never ever speak of the word Protestant with "a degree of disgust". Far from it!
Actually I am wondering why the Inspector and Mrs. Proudie have not been admonished for going off thread with their little tryst and using His Grace's Blog as a means to exchange their billets doux.

31 May 2014 at 15:41  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Obviously I was offering the Inspector places at the Foundling Hospital in Barchester...nothing more.

31 May 2014 at 16:38  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

@ Mrs Proudie

Foundling with or without "u"?

31 May 2014 at 20:52  
Blogger Len said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1 June 2014 at 01:20  
Blogger Len said...

It would seem that there is some confusion amongst Catholics (and Protestants) as to what is' a real Catholic'?.
Perhaps I should have said' Roman Catholic' earlier which might perhaps have clarified the point I was making?.
The early Reformers had no doubt as to the true identity of the Roman Church and the reason that (once having tried to reform the Roman Church and given up any hope of ever doing so )they decided the only course of action was to leave the Roman Church.
And the reason for the Reformation was once their eyes had been opened to the reality of the Roman Church the Reformers were horrified at what they could see;
'The Biggest Vatican Secret Revealed!'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH9f2aRTbKM

1 June 2014 at 01:24  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Len, bit of rapid back-peddling there, Happy Jack says. What you actually said was:

"I see the Catholic contingent need to be moved to 'the side room' without delay so they can continue their ramblings without disturbing the saner members of the bog (sic)".

This referenced a discussion principally between an Anglo-Catholic and an Anglo-Evangelist with the occasional comment from a Roman Catholic.

Do you dismiss the Catholic tradition in the Anglican community - or is it just all things papist?

As stated on the Church of England website:

"The Catholic tradition, strengthened and reshaped from the 1830s by the Oxford movement, has emphasized the significance of the continuity between the Church of England and the Church of the Early and Medieval periods. It has stressed the importance of the visible Church and its sacraments and the belief that the ministry of bishops, priests and deacons is a sign and instrument of the Church of England's Catholic and apostolic identity".

You object to all this too, don't you? A visible Church, a priesthood, Apostolic succession and sacraments.

Frankly, you'd be better off spending your time watching a Looney Tune carton than that video you posted a link to. The Roman Church is the Whore, the anti-Christ and the Beast etc. etc. All a bit out of date seeing as its paganism, atheism and secularism that is the real threat. Then, you are not a member of a worshipping community, preferring to 'go it alone'.

Ps
Any update on the *deal* you predicted between the Pope and the Jews?

1 June 2014 at 02:57  
Blogger Father David said...

Thank you Lucy for your latest comment, concerning the alleged relationship between Mrs. P and the Inspector. You have got this Sunday morning off to a fine start with a chuckle!
As the late great Dick Emery in the guise of Mandy used to say:-
"Oh, U are awful, but I like U !"

1 June 2014 at 06:19  
Blogger Father David said...

Thank you Lucy for your latest comment, concerning the alleged relationship between Mrs. P and the Inspector. You have got this Sunday morning off to a fine start with a chuckle!
As the late great Dick Emery in the guise of Mandy used to say:-
"Oh, U are awful, but I like U !"

1 June 2014 at 06:22  
Blogger Len said...

H J,
'Any update on the *deal* you predicted between the Pope and the Jews?'

H J You forgot the Palestinians!.


'Pope to host Peres and Abbas in 'peace prayer' at Vatican The 'prayer' will take place on June 8, Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi confirmed Thursday, according to Vatican Radio.

Watch this space!.

1 June 2014 at 11:37  

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