Friday, May 23, 2014

Ukip's earthquake belies a tsunami of indifference

As the first tremors of Ukip's "political earthquake" are felt throughout the land, representatives of all the 'mainstream' parties are scrambling to spin these election results as some sort of victory for their own side. Labour has gained councils from the Conservatives, including the highly-prized and much favoured Hammersmith and Fulham Borough, and the Conservatives have gained Kingston-upon-Thames from the Liberal Democrats. Even the almost-extinct LibDems are managing to find chinks of light in the cavernous darkness which is slowly descending upon them, with Simon Hughes cheering any council they manage to hold (like Sutton), and positively wetting himself over Ukip's poor showing in London which, he avers, is evidence that Nigel Farage leads "a pretty unpleasant party" and this is "not what a multicultural city needs". They're all touring the TV studios, tediously restating their core beliefs, talking endlessly about their policies and preaching to persuade the electorate that they have the answers to the anger, cynicism and frustrations of the people. They're all making their shallow promises "to learn" from these "disappointing results".

But they never do.

We must congratulate Nigel Farage and Ukip, as readers of this blog will leap to do. Many millions of voters supported Ukip because they represent clarity on the most important political issue of the age: 'Who governs Britain?' But an awful lot have supported Ukip as the preferred depository of protest: if you're sick of the patronising aloof indifference of the governing elite, vote for 'The People's Army'; the successors to James Goldsmith's 'Rabble Army'; the descendants and heirs of those of have protested for centuries against the historic priestly cabals and political cliques of Europe, which live on today in the bureaucratic, unaccountable and unresponsive institutions of the European Union and the ruling elites who govern us as omnipotent philosopher-kings.

But the turnout for these elections seems to be around 36%: two thirds of the electorate are either indifferent to "the most important political issue of the age", or feel impotent to do anything about it. The vast majority shout "racist", "liar", "cheat", "hypocrite" and stick two fingers up to all our political leaders. As Polly Toynbee observes: "At the last election 76% of over-65s voted, compared with 44% of under-24s – a 32-point difference." And she refers to the "angry alienated" who are completely disenfranchised economically, politically and (most often) spiritually. When you feel that your government doesn't care and your political system conspires against you, it is easy to believe that God is dead. And if not dead, as aloof and indifferent as those who purport to govern on His behalf.

Many of you expressed dismay and disappointment at the way His Grace voted in this elections. You feel that he is naive, blindly tribal or as aloof as the cabal at Westminster which currently holds power. One of you even absurdly suggested that he's toeing the Tory Party line in the hope and expectation of some favour or sinecure. Your judgments are unfair: you can have absolutely no idea of the politics or any understanding of the theological motive or reasoning for his decision, which was not taken lightly: it was a vote cast with great anguish. When the appointed hour came, His Grace might even have stepped up to the voting booth, lifted his eyes to the heavens, and recanted..


Blogger grumpyoldcl said...

Your Grace,

Since many of us are people who long to have a genuine and real conservative party back, we respect your vote.

You wrote:
"Many millions of voters supported Ukip because they represent clarity on the most important political issue of the age: 'Who governs Britain?' But an awful lot have supported Ukip as the preferred depository of protest..."

Actually you can't really have it both ways.

A vote for clarity on who rules Britain is not a protest vote ... it's a completely true vote on a real issue.

23 May 2014 at 13:38  
Blogger Countryboylife said...

My most sincere wish, and unceasing prayer is that UKIP's success will continue to engage increasing numbers of voters from the majority that didn't vote in these elections.

I believe on the basis of anecdotal reports coming from social media that this is happening.

UKIP remain the only hope to not only reclaim our hard-won and fragile democracy back from our unelected EU masters - but engage the disenfranchised by leaving behind the childish things of ya-boo fiction of left and right pantomime politics and concentrating on liberty vs statism.

23 May 2014 at 13:41  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

When the appointed hour came, His Grace might even have stepped up to the voting booth, lifted his eyes to the heavens, and recanted.

Your Grace, I am most intrigued by your last sentence, but I’m not sure I have fully understood your meaning. Some time in the eighties, I think it was, or possibly the nineties, there was a shift in the meanings of “may” and “might”. In my extreme old age, I am stuck in my ways. I still use these words to mean what they used to mean back in the mid-twentieth century. If I say “She may have missed her plane”, I mean I’m not sure whether she did or she didn’t. But if I say “She might have missed her plane”, I mean that she was in danger of missing her plane but the danger was averted and she caught it.

So in which sense, Your Grace, are you using the verb “might” here? Are you reassuring the Conservative Party that you successfully resisted the temptation to tick a different box? Or is this a wink and a nudge to David Hussell, the Inspector General, and other esteemed fellow communicants, signifying that that you did perhaps come down on their side after all?

23 May 2014 at 13:52  
Blogger Ars Hendrik said...

'Your judgments are unfair: you can have absolutely no idea of the politics or any understanding of the theological motive or reasoning for his decision, which was not taken lightly...'

Actually, I think you explained yourself quite well in your last post, it's just that a lot of us disagreed with you.

23 May 2014 at 14:01  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Thank you Your Grace for another opportunity to debate this most important of questions, at least for life here on earth, in these small islands, namely "Who Governs Britain". All else in government follows on from that, obviously.

Countryboylife @ 13.41 has stated correctly that Ukip is the only party connecting with those who previously felt no empathy with any of the establishment parties, and many middle aged first time voters flock to its banner. The others are slowly, treacherously delivering us up to "foreign powers" to become soon, if nothing decisive is done, a mere region of the mighty, vaunting EU empire. This is a most sinister progression which I am convinced, can only lead to great unhappiness and probably totalitarianism, or so close to it as not to matter.

With the greatest of respect Your Grace, you have lost much of your conviction since those dark days when you were burnt at the stake, having become infected, like so many of the still living clergy, of the C of E, with the creeping ailment of seeing a problem, identifying that something is wrong, but not actually being able to do something decisive and clear cut about it, like cutting off its head and killing it stone dead. Perhaps this is because of some unspecified "theological" priestly feeling that it's not quite loving, or caring or pastoral or whatever, I don't know. Only your ghost knows. But the result is that the basic problem, our imminent total absorption into a foreign, undemocratic, corrupt empire keeps growing. So please reconsider your already deeply considered thoughts before next year. We need all hands on deck now, and moreover someone has to read the service before the big battles start, and your crew on this blog would rather (in the majority ?) that it be your good self !

23 May 2014 at 14:01  
Blogger David Hussell said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

23 May 2014 at 14:03  
Blogger Gareth said...

People don't even know what they are angry about any more. You hear bland, all-encompassing epithets like "they just don't get it" (get what exactly) or "they are out of touch".

These are just ways of saying "this person is not like me, therefore I hate him."

That is, I'm afraid, the level political debate has sunk to.

23 May 2014 at 14:03  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Uncle Brian @ 13.52

Well spotted - subtlety I missed !

23 May 2014 at 14:05  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

It should be fairly easy for the Conseratives to co-opt the UKIP voter by (ostensibly) moving a little in UKIPs direction. Or at least enough voters to de-fang the UKIP threat. Cameron's head on a stick, maybe. Some more nice words about a referendum on the EU.

This election will only mean something if that strategy doesn't work. It has to carry into an election for office holders who really exercise power. When the voter has real interests ay stake, he has to still be willing to pull the lever of UKIP. Otherwise this is a voter temper tantrum, and the professional politicians will read it as such


23 May 2014 at 14:22  
Blogger Brian West said...

Interesting point Uncle Brian 13.52; when I read the sentence "When the appointed hour came, His Grace might even have stepped up to the voting booth, lifted his eyes to the heavens, and recanted" I too thought it confusing. On reflection I think HG is using 'might' in the way you and I - grammatical old codgers - would: "I very nearly did, but I didn't". But I'm still not sure.

Brian West
(more a grandad than an uncle)

23 May 2014 at 15:04  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Happy Jack posted this on the thread below:

Well, Happy Jack voted Conservative.

The Conservative Party is bigger than its leader. He needs to go. The Party represents most of what Jack believes to be right for society.

Cameron, if he was a pope, would be declared 'anti-pope' and the orthodox would remove him. When he declared this he abandoned Conservatism and became an anti-leader:

“Conservatives believe in the ties that bind us. Society is stronger when we make vows to each other and we support each other. I don’t support gay marriage in spite of being a conservative. I support gay marriage because I am a conservative.”

Of course, if the Conservative Party is lost and Cameron enjoys the support of the majority of its members, then it is no longer the true Conservative Party and this will have to break away.

UKIP is not, in Jack's estimation, a Party of government. And, forgive me for saying so, Nigel Farage reminds him of a toff's version of a barrow-boy in a street market.

Jack will add this.

If, as is agreed, the EU is becoming an undemocratic and monolithic monster should Britain and other Christian countries who value democracy stand aside and let it? Many of the new Eastern European countries are rejecting the cultural values and so called 'human rights' of the secular atheists. Britain maybe should stay to disrupt the EU's unrelenting growth. How will Britain fair against such a super-state on the continent? Where's the counter-balance? It hasn't got the fire power or clout of a Russia and cannot depend on America.

These are just thoughts as Jack hasn't entirely made his mind up yet on "the most important political issue of the age."

23 May 2014 at 15:08  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

As for: "His Grace might even have stepped up to the voting booth, lifted his eyes to the heavens, and recanted.", Jack just thought - he might or might not have.

23 May 2014 at 15:11  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

@ Carl
They would recapture my vote if they stood for:
1) At the least a very strong stepping back from the European doomed and failing project.
2) Far less interference in the affairs of other nations, notably but not confined to the Middle East.
3) More diplomacy and much less economic and military warfare.
4) Press freedom with sensible old-fashioned restraints.
5) The end of spin.
6) A return to the traditional understanding of marriage, and policies to encourage and strengthen it.
7) Strong actions taken against all paedophiles, & the upper end of pornography, the degradation of human bodies, and strong social action to eradicate paedophilia from society.
8) A return to classical or near classical economics.
9) The eradication of almost all monopolies.
10) A thorough cleansing of both houses of Parliament, and the BBC, and the phasing out of the licence fee.
11) The abolition of shorting on the stocks of small caps.
12) The reintroduction of Sunday as a day of rest.
13) Satanism, Luciferianism, and all following of the left hand path made illegal, and unrecognised as a valid religion or charity.
14) Societies, groups or religions who do not openly proclaim all beliefs and obligations on the day of joining but indulge in secrecy and obfuscation made illegal (as this is how the left hand path operates; you join something "nice" that gradually becomes deeper and darker, as Peaches Geldof with the OTO).
15) A clean up of the city, bringing us towards free and fair markets on a basis of just and non-fraudulent capitalism.

These would revolutionise society and make it a lot happier.

23 May 2014 at 15:13  
Blogger Brian West said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

23 May 2014 at 15:20  
Blogger Brian West said...

Lucy, 15.13. If the CP adopted all these policies, I would have to consider recanting my declared position never to vote for them again, post SSM. But isn't it a rather tall order?

Brian West

23 May 2014 at 15:22  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Brian West, My inclination is in the opposite direction. I think he's using it in the present-day sense, meaning "perhaps, at the moment of truth, I did vote for Our Nige". But I'd like to be sure.

23 May 2014 at 15:22  
Blogger Albert said...

I think the outcome is extremely good. The Conservatives have largely behaved, since the last election, as if they believe that they cannot win an election unless they are socially liberal. They were told yesterday, that they cannot with an election unless they are socially conservative.

To turn that around, they need to begin by getting rid of Cameron. Despite being a hugely articulate politician, he couldn't even beat Brown, even when Labour had been in power for years, and now he cannot beat Labour, even though the economy is recovering and Labour is led by Ed Miliband. The cause of the issue is that, for all his skills, he has no idea what ordinary people - even in his own party - think.

23 May 2014 at 15:27  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear Happy Jack...Goodness! You do come across as rather liverish today...I have stuffed lots of hobnobs in my Lord's old Gladstone and affixed lots of Penny Blacks to the side, so it should reach you quicker than you can say Antidisestablishmentarianism...

23 May 2014 at 15:29  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

@ brian

Yes, but I would like to be really cheeky/hopeful and add one more, which is a sensible re-ordering of the tax system insofar as if you make money through gambling or in spreadbetting your gains are not taxable, but if you invest in a small company (many of which struggle for finance, particularly with banks loathe to lend) although you have done something socially beneficial, unlike the first two socially useless and time-wasting activities, you have to pay tax on any putative gains. This is the wrong way round as it rewards the lesser moral and less socially beneficial behaviour. Possibly both should pay tax, but the gambler should pay more.

23 May 2014 at 15:33  
Blogger Manfarang said...

The EU is far from doomed and I can tell you why.The Poles and Germans don't like each other much but along with other parts of eastern Europe old trade ties have been reestablished and are growing.The old communists countries are excellent places for investment and economic growth.
Its the UK that is the failing state, to slow to adapt to the changing global situation.There was an idustrial machinery exhibition in the far east recently.No British firms there of course.

23 May 2014 at 15:36  
Blogger Brian West said...

Manfarang 15.36. We were sitting on the top of the cliffs at Dover a week ago today, watching the ferries loading and unloading, and I was absurdly cheered by seeing eight or nine vehicle transporters each carrying three or four shiny new blue tractors boarding, yes BOARDING ferries. A few decades ago we would have thought that a perfectly normal and expected sight.


23 May 2014 at 15:50  
Blogger Rasher Bacon said...

Your Grace

Given that I won't know the ultimate wisdom of even my own vote (in the Euros) until I get to glory, I'm not judging you for yours.

Keep at it - I think the parable of the widow and the unjust judge is the one we need to learn from in this context.

23 May 2014 at 15:59  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Rasher Bacon @ 15.59

The unjust judge - agreed ! She kept making her point, bothering him, until even that cynical judge gave her justice, for the sake of peace !

23 May 2014 at 16:04  
Blogger Danny said...

"Many of you expressed dismay and disappointment at the way His Grace voted in this elections"

No, YG, total confusion would be a more apt term.

Perhaps you have more knowledge of the strange ways of Cameron and Co. than I do and you can still vote for the party they appear to be destroying, with a clear conscience.

23 May 2014 at 17:11  
Blogger graham wood said...

Danny. ""Many of you expressed dismay and disappointment at the way His Grace voted in this elections"

Maybe Cranny is deliberately acting as an 'agent provocateur' to stir us all up. Like poking a stick at a wasps nest perhaps!

23 May 2014 at 17:15  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Mrs Proudie, not liverish dear lady. Happy Jack takes Andrews Salts regularly.

Happy Jack just believes in attempts at reform within rather than abandoning a party (or a church) corrupted by the world and the ambitions of men.

Cameron and the faux Conservatives must be dealt with. Jack will see what the next year brings.

23 May 2014 at 18:26  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Brits are traditionally said to always favour the ‘Under-dog’; maybe we do, but in politics today the under-dog is clearly the British voter.

Politics has become a business run by and for the advancement of career hungry opportunists on the backs of voters with whom they have little in common or regard.

But the most challenged under-dog of all is Democracy itself.

Pathetic turnouts are symptomatic of the growing irrelevance of an over-stuffed Parliament in our daily lives and the failure of politicians and educators to accept the real impact of their failure to connect with matters that affect ordinary lives conducted under forty years of involvement with the European muddle.

Anyone born from 1960 onward cares little for the loss of Empire – they never knew it or knew anyone who actually experienced the cruel inequalities of the dreadful Victorian class structure that underpinned it.

We seemingly have lost the dignified aspirational working class and the advantaged but patriotic traditional ruling class and replaced them with a dumbed-down mush of useful idiots, greedy corporate bankers and sundry carpet-baggers.

The electorate’s votes emerge once in a while like mayflies, to be fought over and consumed in feeding frenzy of bloated politicians, free then to line their own pockets and pension pots without delivering on their baited promises. It has to change.

The European Union exists: we are a major contributor and a beneficiary and should be a committed major player and influence. We also have had a lifetime of peace in Europe, are now free from the influence of Communism and Fascism on our doorstep. A European union of nations has made a substantial contribution to this effect.

The vast majority of the electorate know little about it. Politicians are quiet about its importance in British politics simply because they know we are still happier living in the political past, regarding our nations place and relevance in the wider post-colonial world.

This Country needs to raise its game by educating us and future generations, to equip them with the political insight that will help the UK to survive and thrive within the new order. The longer we prattle on about a ‘referendum’, without understanding what the hell the issues and consequences are the more economically vulnerable Britain becomes through ignorance, uncertainty and dithering.

Yes the European Union is a growing and to date unchecked monolith but it is nonetheless important to us. We need to be in there reshaping and influencing it for the long game. We have a lot to offer and even more to gain more from within than we have from without.

The emergence ofUKIP’s prominence is the stalking horse that can draw the public’s and politicians’ attention to where it matters most; public opinion and the future of the UK.

Love them or loathe them, UKIP are doing this Country a big favour.

23 May 2014 at 19:20  
Blogger Len said...

Cameron's not listening.
Luther and others tried to reform the Catholic Church..They wouldn`t listen either.The Reformers were mostly Catholic Priests.
Perhaps we need a 'Real Conservative' Party?.

23 May 2014 at 19:22  
Blogger Len said...

How to change Cameron`s Tory party and effect much needed change.
Vote for them?.
Perhaps I missed something here?

23 May 2014 at 19:24  
Blogger RJDS 82 said...

Having read this blog regularly for a while i have grown to respect blogger and respondants alike and glad to see healthy and robust debate is alive and well - long may it continue! YG covers so much that is relevant and important which in this present age is refreshing. I voted yesterday and despite some niggling concerns voted for UKIP in the euros. As a 32 year old i understand that who governs this country is the most important issue of our age. As for whether UKIP could or should be the ones to govern is another matter. Thats my penny's worth...

23 May 2014 at 20:00  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Len @ 19.22

Yes, and others before Luther tried reform of medieval Catholicism, but sadly the reaction varied from being ignored, if you were unimportant, to being burned at the stake if you were gathering adherents. Luther himself was at heart a reformer, but was forced to break away, as a regrettable last resort, having been given the choice between recantation, and burying the gospel again, or risking all in service to God, to proclaim the gospel of salvation by faith, not works. Fortunately the political situation was auspicious, and his Prince, his Elector, was able to protect him.
Our choices regarding the ever growing existential threat of the EU, though far less stark or cosmic in significance, are equally binary. Nothing will be achieved by patient waiting. The last four decades bear witness to that statement. Indecision, though soothing to some, will merely move us nearer to the edge of the precipice. The Conservative Party, though venerable and formerly very worthwhile, is not one noted for rewarding loyalty. The only language that these unprincipled, mendacious politicians understand is the totally simple, direct and unambiguous loss of votes, threatening their very power base and livelihoods - that is how the system works, and to believe otherwise is nothing more than sweet, ineffectual sentiment. This is no time for indecision. We must seize the moment, before it is too late.

23 May 2014 at 20:14  
Blogger 45minutewarning said...

YG, it's hardly surprising that voters have become apathetic. It seems so long since we had a government that had it's finger on the nations pulse. Instead we've had to put up with years of politicians playing at being leaders while in reality they are doing nothing useful. Chirades can become very tiresome. It's enough to make anyone feel powerless and despondent. Had it not been for UKIP, I would have stayed away from the polling station this time. The mainstream parties are not even worth the effort of wlaking to the polling station.

Two thirds of the electorate didn't vote. That's a lot, but I wonder if some of those people are now regretting not being part of the UKIP phenomenom. This is a defining moment in British politics. UKIP has succeeded in doing something the old LibDems failed to do; breaking the mold. So unlike the LibDems, I doubt that UKIP is just another dustbin for protest votes. Neither have any of the slurs or false accusations made any difference because these attempts at slander have been seen for what they really are.

23 May 2014 at 20:41  
Blogger IanCad said...

Quite the political Merry-andrew.
I wish Mr. Farage well.

Perhaps he will be the fuse that re-ignites the CP.

However, unless he lays off the cigs and booze he may not be around to enjoy his success.
He must give a thought to his health. It's showing.

23 May 2014 at 20:46  
Blogger Busy Mum said...

Dreadnaught said
"We also have had a lifetime of peace in Europe, are now free from the influence of Communism and Fascism on our doorstep".....
Are we free of this influence?? - in many ways it seems to have come off the dorrstep and in through the door.

23 May 2014 at 21:22  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Busy Mum @ 21:22

I agree. The Cold War did not end; it became internalised within the West when Marxism changed its name and its strategy.

As for a lifetime of peace in Europe, if you discount the Crimean War (geographically marginal) nineteenth-century Europe also enjoyed a long period of peace. And that wasn't because of the EU.

23 May 2014 at 21:54  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

The Inspector takes the recent as inspiration. British politics are changing. As the tram conductors of old did say...

“End of the line. All change.”

23 May 2014 at 22:39  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

I suspect the 65% who didn't vote are those to whom George Orwell referred in the conclusionnof his great book of the Spanish civil war 'Homage to Catalonia'

'.....dreaming the deep, deep sleep of England, from which I fear we will never awake until we are jerked outnof it by the roar of bombs.'

23 May 2014 at 23:04  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

PS if the majority (the 65% who voted for 'whatever' by abstaining) are right, then everything will be just fine.

23 May 2014 at 23:08  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Explorer rather stupidly said
‘if you discount the Crimean War (geographically marginal) nineteenth-century Europe also enjoyed a long period of peace. And that wasn't because of the EU.

1801 War of the Oranges France Spain Portugal

The Napoleonic Wars (1803–1815)

The Peninsular War (1807–1814

1848 Greater Poland Uprising
1848 French Revolution of 1848
1848 Revolutions of 1848 in the Italian states
1848 Greater Poland Uprising/Germany
1848 Revolutions of 1848 in the German states
1848 1849 Revolutions of 1848 in the Habsburg areas
1848 Wallachian Revolution of 1848
1848 Sicilian revolution of independence
1848 1849 First Italian War of Independence
1848 1849 First Italian War of Independence
1848 1849 Hungarian Revolution
1848 1851 First Schleswig War - The Three Years' War
1859 Second Italian War of Independence
1864 1864 Second Schleswig War - Second Danish-German War
1866 Austro-Prussian War
1866 Third Italian War of Independence
1870 1871 Franco-Prussian War
1885 Serbo-Bulgarian War

Yes - peaceful alright.

And of course the major 20th Century wars which didn’t happen in isolation but in no small part from the consequences of above;
World War 1 / World War 2

23 May 2014 at 23:18  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Dreadnaught. There will be no more serious European wars. We are blessed with possessing the hydrogen bomb. All kneel before it...

“Thy shall pull out the pin and count to five. Thou shall not count to four, unless it be on the way to five. Six is right out...”

23 May 2014 at 23:40  
Blogger bluedog said...

Dreadnaught @ 19.20 says, 'Yes the European Union is a growing and to date unchecked monolith but it is nonetheless important to us.'

Growing and unchecked, but the EU is a total failure. We need to recognise it as such.

Consider those Club Med countries that now see general unemployment over 25% and youth unemployment over 50%. Did their electorates sign up for that economic outcome? Or the imposition of EU approved PMs, as both Italy and Greece have experienced? The answer has to be a resounding 'No'. Both economically and politically the EU is nothing short of a catastrophe that seriously damages the reputation and influence of Europe globally.
The only EU country that consistently benefits in all regards is Germany. All that an independent Britain needs from a continuing EU, if multilateral agreements are the priority, is a free trade agreement. If EU fragments, as it should, and if the FCO can get over its obsession with the multilateral and think in terms of bilateral, a constellation of bilateral agreements would do fine.

A further observation. The influence of generations of men (rarely women) in politics cannot be discounted. In Britain the last of the WW2 generation to exercise power were Eden and MacMillan. Then came Wilson who oversaw the final demise of any pretence of global power for Britain. Wilson also oversaw the emergence of a socially liberal, if not libertine society. But the most significant leader is Edward Heath, whose long shadow still falls on British politics and the CP. Look no further than the DT, where the aged Ken Clarke, a Heath acolyte, continues to wax lyrical about the virtues of the EU. Angus Maude is of the same Heathite generation and belief, indeed, Maude was the architect of SSM. These are the men who survived and destroyed Thatcher. They clearly have extraordinary influence over Cameron, and they will never admit that their life's work was based on a number of false premises. It is almost as if Thatcher had never existed.

In short, this communicant sees the CP as locked in its death spiral until there is an internal revolt against Clarke, Maude and their fellow travellers. Alternatively they should quietly retire to write their predictably turgid and self-justifying memoirs, for the sake of the British people.

In the meantime it is clear that Ukip represents everything that CP once stood for, and has the same broad appeal as the CP once had. It is no exaggeration to say that without a single sitting member in the Parliament, Ukip dictates the British political agenda.

Congratulations to Nigel Farage for his outstanding political leadership.

23 May 2014 at 23:41  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

66% did not vote

All parties are just fighting over the 34% that vote

We now have a centrist party under UKIP. The main parties were left wing and still are.

What will get the 66% to vote?

They might vote for a genuine party of the right. I mean they might vote for freedom.



24 May 2014 at 01:43  
Blogger Sister Tiberia said...

YG, I think there's not a communicant here who would not defend in the strongest terms your right to vote as your intelligence and your conscience dictate. (If you cast that vote for the Monster Raving Loony party we might question that intelligence but still grant the right of conscience)

Rasher Bacon said it best.

"Your Grace

Given that I won't know the ultimate wisdom of even my own vote (in the Euros) until I get to glory, I'm not judging you for yours.

Keep at it - I think the parable of the widow and the unjust judge is the one we need to learn from in this context."

Or, as I told the man in the blue rosette outside the local polling station, I'll vote for the Conservative Party again when this country has one, but there isn't one I can recognise as such for the moment.

24 May 2014 at 07:46  
Blogger Len said...

As the Inspector says we have arrived at a 'Mexican standoff ' with regard to war at least a war involving nuclear weapons.

'A Mexican standoff is most precisely a confrontation among three opponents armed with guns. The tactics for such a confrontation are substantially different from those for a duel, where the first to shoot has the advantage. In a confrontation among three mutually hostile participants, the first to shoot is at a tactical disadvantage. If opponent A shoots opponent B, then while so occupied, opponent C can shoot A, thus winning the conflict. Since it is the second opponent to shoot that has the advantage, no one wants to go first.'
(Of course these rules change if a fanatic manages to get hold of a nuclear weapon and intends using it a a passport to paradise and all the promised joys?.)

24 May 2014 at 08:44  
Blogger Len said...

Back to the point in question.
I think no political party will ever get enough votes to have a clear majority ever again.Our Country has become too broken and there are deep divisions(,ethnic, political, social ,economic,) running throughout our society.The rich are getting (considerably) richer and the poor are getting poorer.There is only so much 'cake' to be divided and in' good 'evolutionist style the strongest in society are taking from the weakest.
The electorate know that no one party has the solution to the problems in our society and any who say they' have the answer 'are probably given to false optimism or worse deception to gain your vote.
The outstanding message the electorate have given (by turnout figures)is that of utter despair and hopelessness with any party coming up with a solution to our problems.
There are the 'party faithful' who vote for their party because not so much that they hope for anything good to become of it but because it is' their' party.Much as people stay in a Church because they have identified with 'that particular church' and stay with it in a sense of misplaced loyalty.

24 May 2014 at 09:08  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Dreadnaught @ 23:18

True enough.

I was thinking, though, in terms of duration, and number of countries involved. After the Napoleonic Wars, you don't really get anything comparable until World War One.

Europe's later nineteenth-century wars tend to be internal (France), or small countries (Belgium, Piedmont, Hungary, Balkans, etc) trying to free themselves from larger ones. Prussia fought France to establish Germanic dominance, and Austria to establish Prussian dominance within a united Germany.

If it is true that Germany's dream since unification has been to dominate Europe, then it has done so more successfully through the EU than through its wars.

Another possible explanation for C20 European peace is the American umbrella. The Obama Administration's view seems to be that the Europeans could develop wonderful welfare programmes because America paid for their protection.

So let the US do a phased withdrawal, leave Europe to fund its own defence, and use the money saved to develop a welfare programme comparable to those in Europe.

24 May 2014 at 09:16  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...


Did their electorates sign up for that economic outcome?

They were more than happy to avail themselves of EU grants and no one forced them to join the flawed Euro debacle. They spent their cash on fueling a property boom instead of building a more manufacturing base. They also created a culture of tax evasion to the level of a national art-form.

Not the best formula for surviving a global financial crash.

but the EU is a total failure

By who’s or what yard-stick?

All that an independent Britain needs from a continuing EU, if multilateral agreements are the priority, is a free trade agreement

And you think Germany won’t press the EU to shift the financial centre to Frankfurt? Forgotten already about the greedy British Bankers and rate fixers? We are hanging on to that sector by the skin of our teeth.


That Honda, Toyota, JL, and the other foreign owned ‘British’ business won’t be tempted by euro-cash to relocate to Romania/Bulgaria/Poland?
What is it you think we have to trade, that is not linked in one way or another to our place in the EU? We are virtual captives of global manufacturers and other external interests under no obligation to stick with us when labour costs are so much lower in the emergent post-Soviet countries.

Australia and the US are shifting emphasis towards China, the old alliances are long gone. The world has changed dramatically since we joined the Common Market and we have invested billions in Europe already.

Chuck the Baby out with the Bathwater at your peril!

24 May 2014 at 09:30  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...


...use the money saved to develop a welfare programme comparable to those in Europe.

WHAT! are you mad?

It is our already over-generous welfare programme that attracts the dregs from all over Europe and beyond and discourages our own layabouts from supporting themselves isn't it - and you want to put more money in to fattening it?

You also want to disband NATO spend even more of our taxes on a non existent Army of Europe - No bloody thank you.

24 May 2014 at 09:48  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Dreadnaught @ 09:48

I wasn't suggesting it's what I think: I was saying it's what the Obama Administration thinks.

The USA now has 47 million people on welfare. That's the population of Spain.

The USA seems set to outdo even Europe in craziness.

I don't want to disband NATO: America does. 320 million Americans defending 500 million Europeans against 160 million Russians: as I read somewhere. In the same article, the Atlantic is no longer the strategic theatre. 80% of the US fleet is now China watching.

24 May 2014 at 10:31  
Blogger The Explorer said...

bluedog & Dreadnaught:

Dreadnaught makes good points @ 09:30 about Japanese car firms, and Frankfurt as a financial centre.

But remember the Italian workers brought to Britain in the days of Gordon Brown? Using the most competitive source available is an EU principle.

So what's to stop the Japanese relocating to Poland, or the financial focus shifting to Frankfurt, even if Britain stays within the EU?

24 May 2014 at 10:51  
Blogger bluedog said...

Dreadnaught @ 0930, the situation post-independence boils down to competitiveness.

Regarding the economy of the EMU, the continuing crisis simply proves the wisdom of Sir Martin Jacomb, the British banker who wrote the UK's position paper outlining the flaws in the EMU. The principal flaw is that you cannot have a currency without a sovereign, and the EU is not fully sovereign over the constituent nations of the EMU. Read on.

You ask, 'By who’s or what yard-stick?'

By the yardstick of employment and national solvency. Irrespective of the faults of Club Med in getting to their current position, the transfer of wealth from say, Italy to Germany was never intended. Italy has an excellent industrial economy, with a domestically owned motor industry and has achieved a very strong position in agricultural machinery and certain machine tools. Brian West @ 15.50 writes with pride at seeing blue tractors being exported from Dover. Once those blue tractors would have been Fordsons made at Dagenham by Ford. Now those blue tractors are made by the UK plant of New Holland which is owned by FIAT, as is the large US tractor and harvester manufacturer Case. Italy’s problem is that the Lira was surrendered at too high a value against the Euro, and Italian industry has struggled ever since.

Germany thrives in the EU because its manufacturing cost base is highly competitive vis a vis the rest of the EMU manufacturing nations such as France and the Netherlands.

If you don’t believe that the EU is a failure, just wait. EMU nation economies are slowly but surely generating a social/political response to their economic predicament.


24 May 2014 at 10:57  
Blogger bluedog said...

The catalyst for open revolt could well be the introduction of Qualified Majority Voting with regard to the independent action of EU nations in 43 areas of government, with effect from 1st November 2014. Areas in which sovereignty is surrendered include, with relevant treaties noted:
Initiatives of the High Representative for Foreign Affairs – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Administrative co-operation – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Asylum – Nice: QMV; Lisbon: QMV
Border controls – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Citizens’ initiative regulations – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Civil protection – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Committee of the Regions – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Common defence policy – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Crime prevention incentives – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Criminal judicial co-operation – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Criminal law – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Culture – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Diplomatic & Consular protection – Nice: Unanimity Lisbon: QMV
Economic & Social Committee – Nice: QMV Lisbon: QMV
Emergency international aid – Nice: Unanimity Lisbon: QMV
Energy – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
EU budget – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Eurojust – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
European Central Bank – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
European Court of Justice – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Europol – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Eurozone external representation – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Foreign Affairs High Representative election – Lisbon: QMV
Freedom of movement for workers – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Freedom to establish a business – Nice: Unanimity Lisbon QMV
Freedom, security, justice, co-operation & evaluation – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Funding the Common Foreign & Security Policy – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
General economic interest services – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Humanitarian aid – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Immigration – Nice: QMV; Lisbon: QMV
Intellectual property – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Organisation of the Council of the EU – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Police co-operation – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
President of the European Council election – Lisbon: QMV
Response to natural disasters & terrorism – Lisbon: QMV
Rules concerning the Armaments Agency – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Self-employment access rights – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Social Security Unanimity – Nice: QMV; Lisbon: QMV
Space – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Sport – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Structural & Cohesion Funds – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Tourism – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Transport – Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Withdrawal of a member state – Lisbon: QMV
The final area, ‘Withdrawal of a member state’ will, from later this year, completely invalidate Cameron’s proposed referendum. Even if the British electorate wish to leave the EU they will not be able to do so without the consent of the other nations of the EU, pursuant to EU rules for QMV. Leaving the EU will no longer be a matter for the Westminster parliament, and if Britain secedes of its own accord, what action will the EU take?

24 May 2014 at 11:01  
Blogger Preacher said...

Dr Cranmer, whichever way you voted, I believe I represent all your communicants in thanking you for all the time & effort that you spend to give us an open forum to discuss the issues of the day.

Personally, I'm glad at the results & hope to see them endorsed when the results of the Euro elections are announced.

I was disappointed that the three main parties spent so much time in attempting to smear UKIP, instead of listening to the wishes of the electorate. (Mr Farage I feel won outright in the integrity stakes).

The responses of Cameron, Clegg & Milliband were expected, but also revealing that they still 'don't get it'. The people of this nation are sick of empty promises of a better tomorrow given by career politicians that are completely out of touch with the people that pay their wages. 'We hear you!' they say, but surely this is a good example of listening but never hearing what's said.

These men are actors when they seek the votes of the people. I remember Cameron's pathetic man of the people charade, hug a hoodie & call me Dave etc. After four years in power, he & the rest try to lampoon Nigel Farage as a pint swilling fag smoking uneducated oik. Bad Move!. Cameron promised an in - out referendum four years ago, now he's offering it again - with certain conditions attached.
Thankfully we're not all as daft as they think we are. We watch, listen & judge. "By their fruits you shall known them", they put the good stuff on show, but serve us the rubbish from the back of the stall. Next year will be interesting.

Thanks again for your Brilliant, provocative Blog. P

24 May 2014 at 11:01  
Blogger bluedog said...


Yet another cast-iron promise from Cameron is completely worthless.

Do you think Cameron doesn’t know this?

As for Britain’s competitiveness post-independence, it would be necessary for a British government to develop economic strategies that did so. Cutting corporation tax to the Irish level of 12.5% would be one obvious gambit. The financial services sector is heavily dependent on English contract law, and until Frankfurt is prepared to replicate English law in courts whose authority is globally recognised in the way that English courts are, Frankfurt cannot compete. We are fortunate that Gordon Brown’s enmity for Tony Blair drove him to resist Blair’s wish to join the Euro. In control of its own monetary policy and able to ignore EMU and ECB direction, the British economy now shows some of the best growth in the OECD. even the German economy is now recording negative GDP numbers.

Countries like Japan and Korea with global brands and excellent products survive outside the EU. Why can't Britain?

24 May 2014 at 11:11  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...


the British economy now shows some of the best growth in the OECD.

Being in the EU not all that bad then eh? All the more reason to stay in and use our clout in reshaping it.

You keep shifting the goal posts and packing your responses with if buts and maybes

24 May 2014 at 11:19  
Blogger bluedog said...

Dreadnaught, after 1st November 2014 there will be nothing to reshape. Read the treaties!

How long before the UK is compelled by QMV to join the EMU?

What will then happen to the British economy if control over monetary policy and the currency is surrendered to the ECB?

How long before British MPs are forced to swear an oath of fealty to the EU?

Of course there are 'ifs', we are looking at future developments and nothing is certain. Some things are already enacted and will take place. The reaction of the European people to the implementation of these treaty measures, both in form and in time, cannot be predicted. The trend towards loss of freedom is set out in my post above.

24 May 2014 at 11:47  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Interesting debate there featuring our esteemed communicants Bluedog and Dreadnought.

The overriding advantage that London possesses for financial transactions is our Common Law based Laws of Contract and Tort, respected globally. This is most unlikely to be replicated in Frankfurt, but we need to be vigilant, I agree. London is also, love it or loathe it, a global centre in a sense that other cities can only replicate in part. Of course such advantages will be viewed enviously by our "friends" in continental europe, so we need to defend our interests.

Regarding manufacturing, the weapon that we have to fend off attacks after our reemergence into the global world, is the simple killer point that we buy much more from the EU than we sell them, and Germany loves selling us BMWs etc at high prices. New deals will have be recast in time with the international corporates I agree.

It is entirely possible, that our exit will herald, will trigger, further unrest, and departures, and the fragmentation of the EU, this creating opportunities for establishing new trading arrangements, without political ties, to which we can respond, by leading.

My long term aim would be a europe of free, democratic countries, cooperating in trade and through NATO, defense, and basing their national laws on their respective Christian roots, again. Some of the later member states, arrivals, being wiser, have indeed refused to be cowed into accepting the EU, PC, Equality legislation anyway.

An exit is clearly not risk free, but think of the advantages, to our smaller and medium sized firms, freed from 100% compliance with EU red tape. Over time we sell a decling % of our goods to europe, and more and more to the economically expanding globe. So freed from unnecessary control, that freedom would act as a great stimulus to foster invention and entrepreneurial growth.

There are risks, as in all big decisions, and the strategy of the establishment will be to frighten the weak minded into a cowed, resentful servitude. Does that appeal, as a way forward ? I believe that we would have a few "exciting" years as we adjust, followed by considerable opportunities for global trading, without our "minder". Even if we are a bit poorer for an interlude I'd prefer sturdy independence, and the chance to reestablish our own culture and laws, coupled with the opportunities offered by a growing, dynamic world, than a safer, slow decline underneath German and EU domination - national humiliation and cultural impoverishment will go hand in hand.

The only weapon that the pro-EU lobby has is unfounded fear. To look our grandchildren in the face we should seize the moment - in one leap we will be free. Be led and bullied, or lead that's the question ?

24 May 2014 at 12:16  
Blogger John Wrake said...

Your Grace,

I find it interesting that comments on this well-respected forum for discussion on matters of national importance, so often, turn into discussion of the economic benefits or otherwise of membership of the E.U.

I am reminded of a New Testament statement that "the love of money is the root of all evil" and the old adage of the folly of "knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing".

UKIP, (however you voted) has reminded us that the basic question we should ask ourselves is who should govern us. Should it be those we choose according to our Constitution and our history, whom we may dismiss for misbehaviour, or unaccountable bureaucrats whom we have not chosen.

For those of us who hanker after saving a world drowning in a sea of selfishness, cruelty and lies. it should be remembered that a firm footing on the Gospel is a necessary preliminary. Potential wealth is not a viable alternative requirement.

John Wrake.

24 May 2014 at 12:26  
Blogger David Hussell said...

John Wrake @ 12.26

Well said, Sir.

Values should be more important than wealth, to the Christian.

Prosperity is best if flowing from having the right values. Get your values wrong and you may find yourself with neither eventually.

24 May 2014 at 12:39  
Blogger bluedog said...

Well said, David Hussell @ 12.16.

Sadly there are always those who prefer not to accept the risks and rewards of freedom, preferring instead the certainty that comes with being a servant, rather than striving to be a freeman or even a master.

The low turnout in the recent vote is indicative of a great passivity. Even among those that did vote, Ukip still has much work to do. Of course we don't yet know the EMP results. But in Holland the EU would be thrilled by Geert Wilders poor showing of just 12.2%.

This communicant would not be surprised if Ukip records a poor result too...

24 May 2014 at 12:42  
Blogger The Explorer said...

bluedog @ 11:01

Your final point about not being able to leave without permission of other member states.

If Scotland votes for independence, does that mean it leaves the EU in the process?

If so, will the other member states allow it, or does it escape the deadline?

24 May 2014 at 12:53  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Wrake @ 12.26, with respect, if the counter-party is an atheist who wishes to debate economics, it seems ill-mannered if not rather pompous, to demand that the conversation be couched in terms of one's own faith.

Perhaps this communicant misunderstands your point.

24 May 2014 at 12:55  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Explorer, one reads that the UK is trying to declare an independent Scotland to be a successor state. The implications of this status are that Scotland would be free from the strictures of Nice and Lisbon from the vesting date of independence. With regard to Nice, there is wriggle room regarding determination of the measures that extends to March 2017.

Now where have we heard mention of 2017 before, and in what context?

Cameron is an anagram for 'lying scum' however you arrange the letters.

24 May 2014 at 13:03  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...


Exports to EU countries help to support 4.2m UK jobs and are worth £211bn to the economy, according to new research which underlines the strength of Britain’s trade links with Europe.(FT)

Non-EU Exports for March 2014 are £13.6 billion. This is a decrease of £0.8 billion (5.6 per cent) compared to last month, and a decrease of £4.8 billion (26.1 per cent) compared to March 2013.

Roughly then 13.6 X 12 = £163 bn; and falling.

If Britain went for a clean break from the EU, its exports would be subject to EU export tariffs and would still have to meet EU production standards. Does anyone seriously think we have the capacity to instantly compete with the BRICs, Japan or Korea?

The EU is a work in progress and we should be shaping it.

24 May 2014 at 13:06  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

We feel we are being disadvantaged because we are indifferent towards holding our MEPs accountable. European politics and politicians need to be given greater place in the equation.

Parliament needs to be re-organised to take this forward by reducing the numbers in the Commons and Lords and bring the MEPs and Commissioners in from the cosy shadows where they are totally unaccountable to the electorate in any real sense.

The problem is not so much the EU dictating to us, but in us allowing them to so do.

We need a total reform of British politics.

24 May 2014 at 13:22  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Dreadnaught, by way of clarification, @ 11.47 I wrote, 'after 1st November 2014 there will be nothing to reshape'.

Please read my reply to Mr Explorer @ 13.03. The earlier Treaty of Nice does provide for manoeuvring until March 2017. But Barroso has already indicated that the UK cannot write its own ticket. besides, any negotiations are ultimately subject to the vote of other EU members. This implies that the UK has no practical prospect of getting a better deal. One cannot believe that Cameron does not know this and if so, is playing a very cruel trick on the British people.

The only viable negotiating position is unilateral departure, before the EU gets its own military.

You ask, 'Does anyone seriously think we have the capacity to instantly compete with the BRICs, Japan or Korea?'

Good Lord. What shocking defeatism. Brazil can't even run a football carnival, Russia has just over-extended itself in Crimea and faces Iranian style sanctions, India's economy is big but with 65% of her population under the age of 35 faces a massive challenge. China has a shrinking work-force, astonishing debt and has just alienated the whole of South-east Asia.

In an earlier post you said, 'Australia and the US are shifting emphasis towards China'.

That would be in terms of perceived military risk only.

24 May 2014 at 13:31  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

That would be in terms of perceived military risk only.

No. The subject is economics.

Australia and China share a strong and rapidly growing trade and economic relationship. Further strengthening and deepening this relationship is a major priority for both countries, with both governments committed to sustaining the impressive trade and investment performance achieved in the past two decades. In that time, China has become Australia’s largest two-way trading partner and vital to Australia’s future economic prosperity. AusGovt statement.

24 May 2014 at 14:05  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

US - China - Trade Facts

U.S. goods and private services trade with China totaled $579 billion in 2012 (latest data available). Exports totaled $141 billion; Imports totaled $439 billion. The U.S. goods and services trade deficit with China was $298 billion in 2012.

China is currently our 2nd largest goods trading partner with $562 billion in total (two ways) goods trade during 2013. Goods exports totaled $122 billion; Goods imports totaled $440 billion. The U.S. goods trade deficit with China was $318 billion in 2013.
source US govt figures.

24 May 2014 at 14:16  
Blogger John Wrake said...

Bluedog at 12.55,

I am happy to discuss anything under the sun with a "counter-party".

What I am not prepared to do is to allow a "counter-party" to decide what I may or may not discuss.

What we are talking about is not good and friendly relations with our neighbours, but with allowing our neighbours to usurp the position rightly belonging to the head of our own household.

John Wrake.

24 May 2014 at 15:50  
Blogger David Hill said...

Now that the dust is settling from the local elections and the coming EU results will be known in the near future, it does not matter who people vote for in reality, as nothing ever changes other than things gets worse for 90% of the people. Indeed people are fooling themselves if they think any of our politicians can really make a better life for us. It is just an impossibility for them as they are not really interested in the people but only themselves and the party. Indeed 'Partyocracy' rules supreme and once in office they basically do what the party wants and not what the people want. One has only to look at our illustrious politicians over the past 20-years and how they have feathered their own nests and not the people. One who stands out is Blair who through his highly secretive Blair Associates according to some mainstream media sources made £20 million in a single year. Indeed he is associated with all manner of governments no matter if they are good or bad in human rights terms. Therefore we the people are just mere pawns in the whole process and if anyone again thinks different, they are fools. Vested self-interest and what they can get out of the system is our politician's primary concern, not a better life for the people. Until people realise that democracy is really partyocracy, change will never come as we as pawns are just voting for the opposite things that we wish to see happen for our families, our grand children and our great grandchildren. Indeed in many ways our political class undermine any progress in living standards and where politicians in the main are predominantly responsible for the vast financial crash (under Labour) and a negative economic growth with inflation taken into account post the financial meltdown by the Conservatives. They never took a blind bit of notice of Greenspan's warnings in 2003 that the financial markets had to be brought under control and a clear 4 years+ before the crash. All in all the politicians are responsible for the vast majority of debt that has been amassed (so-called liberating of markets et al) and also the decline in living standards for 90% of the people. The other 10% of course and the politician's friends, have got richer. So who is the fool, the voters or the politicians. A question hard to answer in reality as it is an eternal circle. But one thing is for sure, the vast majority of the people in the UK get poorer by the year and where you might one day be one included in those depressing national statistics - for you have a 90% probability of getting on the list.

Democracy died a death when 'Partyocracy' and 'Corporatocracy' Corrupted the System and became the New way to Control People and run a Nation -

Vast Corporate & Political Power in the West have Impoverished the People of the USA and the EU over the past 30-years – and unfortunately it will get far worse as things will not change for the better -

The ‘Establishment’ Makes Amends but where the ‘Establishment’ does not change its spots when it comes to its own -

UK's Debt is far more than what people really think -

The EU-USA Trade Agreement if our politicians vote it through will be a Disaster for the People of Europe & the People of the USA -

24 May 2014 at 16:20  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Dreadnaught, the point that needs to be made about US and Australian trade with China is that it is conducted very much on a nascent clash of civilisations basis. In other words, its good business but the potential for misunderstanding and serious friction is great and recognised as such. For example, a US Grand Jury has just arraigned five Chinese government employees on charges of computer hacking and theft of intellectual property. It is not impossible that the US will move to suspend Chinese membership of the WTO.

You may find, if you dig deeper, that both the US and Australia are very concerned by Chinese attitudes with regard to diplomatic protocols. Following its own tradition of being a super-power in antiquity when it established a hierarchy of surrounding tributary states, China works on the presumption that might is right. This conflicts with the Western assumption of equality between states that descends from the practice of medieval Italian city-states, and which is embodied in international law. Almost all Asian nations, including Japan, conduct their relationships on this European precedent, respecting the rule of law.

Not China, which recently planted an oil-drilling rig off the coast of Vietnam in Vietnamese waters. The result was a wave of anti-Chinese riots that saw 20 Chinese killed and Chinese owned businesses torched. China has since evacuated all its nationals from Vietnam.

In flagrant breach of international law, China has claimed virtually the whole of the South China Sea, a move which has infuriated its many trading partners on the littoral.

So while the USA and Australia conduct huge trade with China, there is no suggestion of an alliance by either party with China.

Your full quote @ 0930 was, 'Australia and the US are shifting emphasis towards China, the old alliances are long gone'.

A trading relationship should not be conflated with an alliance where there is none.

Hope this helps.

24 May 2014 at 22:48  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr John Wrake 2 15.50 says, '...but with allowing our neighbours to usurp the position rightly belonging to the head of our own household.'

I don't quite understand this point. Please could you explain giving an example that would illustrate what you mean. Is it that Christ is the head of our household?

24 May 2014 at 23:03  
Blogger Di said...

Contributors are not looking widely enough - euro-scepticism is apparent all over the continent.
The euro-beast is now even more dangerous than before, wounded as it is by widespread displays of democracy. It will relinquish no power willingly, so we can expect dirty tricks - some artificial crisis will be used to justify an imposition of emergency measures to suppress civil unrest.
Notwithstanding the votes now being revealed, the EU continues its awowed policy of acquiring more and more irreversible powers by stealth and lies. "Bluedog" at 11.01 lists those we will lose on 1st November. Cameron is only playing for time with his talk of re-negotiation. It is all the more urgent therefore to keep up the pressure for early withdrawal.

24 May 2014 at 23:46  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

A trading relationship should not be conflated with an alliance where there is none.

I beg to differ and offer two random pieces from journals where as you will see both the US and Australia directly refer to trade alliances with China. My point is that much has changed in 40 years when Britain was a major force in global trade and when China was a peasant economy.

In the process, it[China] has siphoned away jobs and business from the United States and other industrialized nations and has become a formidable competitor for petroleum and other natural resources.

Even so, said Gary Locke, the country has “incredible needs” and “I believe there is much to gain through a strong U.S.-China alliance.”

23 Jul 2012
Katherine Tulich

One of the world’s largest steel producers has opened its first international research and development centre in Australia. Baosteel has announced it will provide up to $25 million in funding over five years for the Centre located within the University of Queensland.

- See more at:

24 May 2014 at 23:51  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Blue dog
The whole of SE Asia hasn't been alienated by China. Relations with Burma, Indonesia and Thailand remain the same.
Many of the Chinese factories damaged in Vietnam were in fact Taiwanese on a Singaporean industrial estate.
Japan has had twenty years of economic stagnation and now there is the rise of militarism there again.
Japan along with Korea depended on access to US markets.
Mr West
You will be cheered by the fact that Triumph motorcycles are now made in Thailand.
There aren't many products with made in England label sold in Thailand.Mostly foodstuffs which are too expensive for the average Thai and anyway they don't care for baked beans. Ayam a Malaysian company sells good baked beans.
Of course I should not forget the defence equipment that is sold to Thailand!
Europe still remains a better prospect for British products(Asian production costs cannot be matched) but any trade deal with Britain outside the EU would come with a lot of strings attached.

25 May 2014 at 07:07  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Dreadnaught @ 23.51, having checked out the website you posted, googled the names, etc, it is apparent that the two examples you quote are most definitely not the policy positions of the US and Australia governments. Both Gary Locke of the US and Dr Lu of the University of Queensland are overseas Chinese who seem drawn back to the Middle Kingdom. Their ambitions for ever closer union between the US, Australia and China seem destined to lead to disappointment. Thus there is no 'alliance' between either country and the PRC. Indeed, neither country has yet negotiated a free trade agreement with China. The Pan Pacific Partnership currently proposed by the US as a Pacific trading bloc specifically excludes China, but would include Australia.

The term ‘trading alliance’ would appear to be your own creation and only you know what it means; it is not a term of recognised usage.

The most important alliance is arguably the Five Eyes agreement whereby the US, UK, Canada, Australia and NZ share information on a wide range of topics. Note that this agreement is solely between the leading English-speaking nations and does not include, and has never included, any European or Asian power.

Quite why you seek to misrepresent the position of both the US and Australia with regard to China is unclear. Speculatively, it may suit your purpose to demean these two important allies of the UK given your misguided advocacy in favour of the EU.

25 May 2014 at 10:18  
Blogger John Wrake said...

bluedog at 23.03,

I'm sorry that I didn't make myself clear.

I was talking about governance.

The head of our household is rightfully defined in our constitutional monarchy as our Queen in parliament, ruling in conformity with the oath She made at Her coronation, upholding the Christian faith and subject to Common Law.

At present, we are not so ruled, since treasonous politicians have ceded sovereignty to unelected bureaucrats and foreign law administered by our neighbours.

I hope that clarifies.

John Wrake.

John Wrake.

25 May 2014 at 11:05  
Blogger bluedog said...

Many thanks, Mr Wrake, you have made your point admirably clear.

One can only wonder where it will all end. Perhaps some bright spark in UKip will come up with the idea of a huge Wake for the United Kingdom on 1st November this year, taking over Trafalgar Square or some such for the day. And of course, we don't know where Scotland will be on that date.

The prospect of an annus horribilis looms.

25 May 2014 at 11:25  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Speculatively, it may suit your purpose to demean these two important allies of the UK given your misguided advocacy in favour of the EU.

How the hell do you get to the stupid conclusion that I am trying to 'demean' a entire countries? We are on a blog site; not the bloody floor of the United Nation Assembly - do try to maintain a sense of proportion!

I have demeaned no one, but have offered up many discussion points that you have heroically failed to address while clog-dancing on a pin-head over over a mis-chosen word.

Ok a 'trading alliance' doesn't fit -it immaterial to the point I'm making. Perhaps I could have used 'trading partners' or 'open door trading' maybe that would have been more appropriate and understandable to your perception of global economics. The essence however remains: not to mention entities in EU countries that own our social infrastructures, what and with whom do we trade if our foreign owned manufacturers relocate in to cheap labour countries within the EU and the cheap labour users in Asia?

An economy direction cant be change by flipping some illusionary master-switch - what happens in the interim?

25 May 2014 at 11:29  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Dreadnaught, the point raised about the Pan Pacific Partnership would appear to heroically demolish your assertions regarding the US, Australia and China.

If the term 'trading alliance' is immaterial, why did you introduce it?

You say, '...not to mention entities in EU countries that own our social infrastructures'. What entities, what social infrastructures, which EU countries? How does this somewhat obscure diversion into sociology relate to British trade and the British economy? Do tell.

You ask, '...what and with whom do we trade if our foreign owned manufacturers relocate in to cheap labour countries within the EU and the cheap labour users in Asia?'

Many manufacturing processes are not appropriate for 'cheap', or more accurately, 'semi-skilled' labour. For example, it seems improbable that BMW would shift the Bentley production line to Bangladesh.

As the economy is dependent on service industries as to 80%, it seems unlikely that there would be any immediate change in economic activity. Sadly so many of the great old British manufacturers and their brand names have been taken over by foreign companies, and there is obviously a risk that some parts of Europe will be more attractive for their businesses, like Cadbury going to Poland.

There's an economic theory of comparative advantage that operates over time and determines economic activity in any given environment. That would continue to be the case. The continuing float of Sterling against the Euro would be a critical factor, acting as a giant shock-absorber in the economy. Ensuring the right macro-economic settings to keep the exchange rate competitive vis-à-vis the Euro and USD would an essential part of economic management, just as it is today.

No need to flip a switch, the economy would adjust, as it always does.

25 May 2014 at 12:34  
Blogger John Wrake said...

bluedog at 11.25,

I do not see a Wake on All Saints Day or any other day as a way forward and I am sure that anyone in UKIP will not be advocating a memorial on the death of democracy.

I expect that UKIP will be advocating a return to constitutional government and the rule of law, led by those with more emphasis on their spines, rather than the contents of their pockets.

John Wrake.

25 May 2014 at 12:51  
Blogger John Wrake said...

bluedog at 11.25,

I do not see a Wake on All Saints Day or any other day as a way forward and I am sure that anyone in UKIP will not be advocating a memorial on the death of democracy.

I expect that UKIP will be advocating a return to constitutional government and the rule of law, led by those with more emphasis on their spines, rather than the contents of their pockets.

John Wrake.

25 May 2014 at 12:51  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

If the term 'trading alliance' is immaterial, why did you introduce it?
Read my previous post.

How does this somewhat obscure diversion into sociology relate to British trade and the British economy? Do tell.

Nothing to do with Sociology.

Two-thirds of the UK's electricity is generated by overseas firms. EDF Energy which is owned in France (Électricité de France), German firms own Npower and E.ON UK, the Spanish own Scottish Power, EDF Energy alone, owns and operates 15 nuclear plants at eight nuclear power stations in the UK. Australian, Dutch, Hong Kong-based, Malaysian and French companies own our water outfits. In July, Hong Kong-based billionaire Li Ka-Shing acquired UK gas company Wales and West Utilities from German owners, and the Northumbrian Water Group from the French.

BAA is Spanish-owned. P&O Ports, the British Airports Authority, Associated British Ports, Tilbury docks and Felixstowe port are all foreign-owned, while our railways funnel money to owners in France and Germany

If you find my comments regarding EU membership unworthy, maybe the views of British Industry may be of help. I'll let them be the articulators my last words:-

71% of British businesses said the UK’s membership has had a positive or very positive impact on their businesses, with 16% stating it had no impact and 13% that the impact was negative.

Among the SMEs surveyed, 67% think membership of the EU has had a positive impact (16% no impact, 16% negative)

75% think leaving the EU would have a negative impact on the overall level of foreign direct investment in the UK – 9% thought it would increase investment. 35% warned they would be likely to reduce their own business investment in the event of an EU exit, compared to 51% saying there would be no impact and only 6% who stated they would boost investment.

86% believe that leaving the EU would have a negative impact on UK firms’ access to EU markets (11% thought it would have no impact and only 1% a positive impact.

59% thought that an EU exit would reduce the international competitiveness of the UK as a whole, with 15% believing the UK would be unaffected and 23% that there would be a positive impact.

A substantial majority of companies see the EU as having a positive impact on their businesses, in terms of their ability to buy and sell products inside and outside EU markets without prohibitive taxes or tariffs, and to recruit staff from across the EU.

25 May 2014 at 16:37  
Blogger bluedog said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

25 May 2014 at 21:44  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Wrake @ 12.51, as politics is about perceptions, a protest rally to 'celebrate' the demise of democracy is a useful tool in heightening electoral awareness of the political dangers of the EU, particularly in London.

You may have noticed the recent political reflection of a sharp cultural divide between London and Britain. In order to educate the Londonistaners, a protest rally targeting their likely concerns could be a useful device.

You may admit that to convert London to the cause, generations of pro-EU propaganda emanating from the BBC, and similar organs, must be countered. In our fallen world, honour and righteousness flow from power. To gain power it is first necessary to seduce the mob of the London Street.

Am I alone in seeing the irony of the BBC's recent move closer to Manchester?

25 May 2014 at 21:52  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Dreadnaught, now that the MEP voting results are out, do you still believe in the future of the EU? Or should you prepare yourself for something different?

The people are saying they want democracy, and whatever the business groups want, they can only get if society permits. That permit has been withdrawn where the EU is concerned. As previously said, the EU is a catastrophic failure, and a large number of Europeans seem to agree.

26 May 2014 at 13:00  

Post a Comment

<< Home

Newer›  ‹Older