Monday, June 09, 2014

Pope Francis prays with presidents Peres and Abbas


During his visit last month to Israel, Jordan and the West Bank, Pope Francis did what popes are supposed to do - listen intently to both sides, look earnest with furrowed brow and pray for the peace of Jerusalem. But this pope went further: he extended an extraordinary invitation to President Shimon Peres of Israel and President Mahmoud Abbas of the Palestinian Authority to attend a prayer meeting at the Vatican. Not to debate land or borders, or talk about prisoner exchanges, or terrorism, security, bombings or mutual feelings of injustice. It was to be a prayer summit focusing on God, not politics. There would be no spiritual coercion, no political objective and no expectation of temporal breakthrough: just three men - a Christian, a Jew and a Muslim - on their knees before their Creator seeking guidance, wisdom and enlightenment.

“It is my hope that this meeting will mark the beginning of a new journey where we seek the things that unite, so as to overcome the things that divide,” Pope Francis said.

No doubt the world scoffs at such a vacuous gesture: if umpteen meetings at Camp David over many decades poring over Middle-East nitty-gritty can't bring peace, there's not a lot of hope for a prayer meeting at the Vatican which studiously avoids any of the detailed points of dispute. But the Israeli-Palestinian peace process cannot be resolved without dialogue, and this prayer summit did, at least, bring both sides together.

The thing is, when you're on your knees before God, you tend to be honest. If your mouth utters 'occupation' while the heart dwells on 'cohabitation', God knows your hypocrisy. If your lips avoid all mention of 'Israel' while the heart and mind acknowledge its legitimacy, God sees the deception. And if you describe Jerusalem as "our Holy City" while you're plotting with Hamas to threaten and terrorise its inhabitants, God weeps at the duplicity. You can run rings around American presidents, but you can't mock God.

President Abbas reportedly prayed for a “sovereign and independent state”, because Palestinians are “craving for a just peace, dignified living and liberty”.

President Peres invoked Scripture: “Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.”

Pope Francis exhorted both to listen to the heart of God and the deepest desires of their peoples: "Peacemaking calls for courage, much more so than warfare. It calls for the courage to say yes to encounter and no to conflict; yes to dialogue and no to violence; yes to negotiations and no to hostilities," he said.

And so, while the world's political leaders weigh up the prospects for peace in the context Israel's centrists, moderates and liberals confronted by Fatah-Hamas unity, a pope and two presidents pray for peace. Significantly, Jewish rabbis intoned from the Torah in Hebrew; Christian cardinals read from the New Testament in Italian and English; and Muslim Imams chanted from the Qur'an in Arabic. Yes, Islamic prayers at the Vatican. This is the first such multi-faith ecumenical event to be held under the aegis of St Peter's, which became simultaneously a church, a synagogue and a mosque.

"We have heard a summons and we must respond. It is the summons to break the spiral of hatred and violence, and to break it by one word alone: the word 'brother'," Pope Francis said, as the presidents listened in humility.

Of course, we are dealing with thousands of years of history woven through with theology. But where there are no expectations, there can be no recriminations.

His Grace has long held the view that peace will not come to the Middle East until profound theological differences are acknowledged and addressed, for they run far deeper than the political. There can be no political solution to this dispute until there is a theological solution. There will be no peace in the world until there is peace between the world’s religions. Presidents and prime ministers can preach and proclaim, but only a pope can pontificate. Inter-religious dialogue is the cornerstone of peace in this region. As His Grace wrote (prophetically?) in 2009:
Cranmer can think of no better solution to the Israel-Palestine problem than religio-political mediation. And it would be preferable to have a credible, theological heavyweight do this (His Holiness) than a superficial lightweight who knows little (Tony Blair).

128 Comments:

Blogger Uncle Brian said...

You can run rings around American presidents,

Quite so, Your Grace. And some presidents more easily than others.

9 June 2014 at 10:13  
Blogger David Hussell said...

A good and hopeful initiative.

I wish this charismatic Pope well in his sincere efforts.

Christians have traditionally been the peace makers in middle eastern countries, even when in a tiny minority. In Nablus, deep in the Palestinian West Bank, our group of pilgrims shared a service and meal with a tiny Anglican community of just 120 souls. Their priest was active doing that very thing, initiating and leading the peace negotiations between the predominantly Muslim community and the tiny minority communities, drawing in the Catholic and Orthodox Christians into the discussions an growing friendships.

The "cleansing" of so many Christians from large tracts of the ME is bad news for more than just the Christians, for with most of the peace negotiators gone, more conflict is very likely.

9 June 2014 at 10:16  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Lets have none of this Camp David talk - give the lad a break!

9 June 2014 at 10:47  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Your Grace, I’ve just been reading your earlier post that you link to, entitled “Let the Pope preside over Jerusalem”. You wrote it, I see, in January 2009, in the middle of Operation Cast Lead. Congratulations on your remarkable foresight!

9 June 2014 at 10:58  
Blogger Len said...

The dividing up of Gods Land 'Israel' is going to precipitate a chain of events which will be without precedence in history.
There will be a' peace' bought about by those who seek to carry out their own agendas as they haggle over religious sites, Temples, Mosques, and land 'rights'.
And God sits back and watches as these groups scrabble over His land each wanting' a piece of the action'.
We are coming to a time when the RCC will have the greatest influence it has ever had over world leaders and politicians and this is foretold in Bible prophesy.
This false Church will assume power over the corrupt political systems of the World until the corrupt political systems decide that they no longer need or will tolerate' this great religious leader' anymore.

Exciting but very dangerous times .Christians need to pray for discernment as never before!.


9 June 2014 at 11:03  
Blogger Father David said...

I understand that the Islamic prayers were offered in the Papal Gardens rather than in a church building as such. Wherever they were held, if this initiative can assist in the quest for peace in the Land of the Holy One, I'm sure it would have the Blessing of the Prince of Peace.
Prior to being called Camp David, the Maryland Presidential Retreat was called Shangri-La. May God bless Pope Francis in his prayerful concern for peace and justice in the Middle East so that the Holy Land may indeed become a kind of Shangri-La for both Jew and Palestinian.

9 June 2014 at 11:03  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

His Grace has long held the view that peace will not come to the Middle East until profound theological differences are acknowledged and addressed, for they run far deeper than the political.

I doubt if theological dialogue is remotely possible with 'The Religion of Peace at the centre of its culture.

The world knows it is a global headless Frankenstein Creation with an overt ethos of Arab/Islamist self-interest, based on the extreme violence,plunder of its so called proffit combined with a total disregard for basic human principles.

Islamic sponsored violence is endemic all over the world. 'It' is an incompatible ideology, unsuited for dialogue with any of the religion, politics;concepts of 21st Century values. No sane State or person should invite into their midst until it has been subject to the most radical and universal reform.

Peace could come tomorrow if Muslims put down their weapons and accepted the Sate of Israel.

Fatah Chance!

9 June 2014 at 11:12  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Your Grace

After only just having remembered the D Day landings, Ernst wonders therefore using your stated approach if all that needed to be done 70 + years ago was for some religious character to get Stalin, Churchill, Roosevelt and Hitler and Mussolini together, call them 'Brothers' and suggest a peace pow wow in Vatican central and all the problems would melt away with mere dialogue, as if this was the problem or barrier.

Abbas and his co-horts are as entrenched in their hatred for Jews and us as Hitler and his own were and we know what Chamberlain's peace plan achieved, do we not? Fear of pursuing what we know must be done, sooner rather than later!

Nothing changes when dealing will evil it seems and trying to pretend to see the good where none exists or is shown in practice to observers is intellectually ridiculous and only encourages the wicked in their endeavours.

Blofeld

9 June 2014 at 11:29  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

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9 June 2014 at 11:39  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Dreadnaught, it’s not only Muslim religio-political fanaticism that makes it unlikely that the Palestinian leadership, in either half of the brand-new Fatah-Hamas coalition, will accept the two-state solution. A hard-headed assessment of the return on investment must necessarily lead them to the same conclusion, that No is the only answer. May I repeat here my comment on an earlier thread a few days ago, that thanks to the deep purse of the EU and other generous donors, the Palestinian political class stand to gain fatter rewards as the heroic leaders of a glamorous stateless nationalist movement than they could ever hope to earn as the rulers of a potty little Middle Eastern banana republic without so much as an oil well to its name.

9 June 2014 at 11:39  
Blogger Sister Tiberia said...

God bless Pope Francis for somehow being the tool to bring these two together in prayer. Nobody is expecting a miracle. But we commend the desire for peace in the Middle east into the hands of God, and pray that somehow, against all the odds, that this might be a step towards it.

9 June 2014 at 11:43  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

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9 June 2014 at 11:46  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

YG,

Well I hope this stunt does whatever it was supposed to do, which if it is about bring peace... I applaud. Although of course the peace process could be restarted at any time, once the Pals stop terrorism, recognise Israel as the Jewish homeland, agree that Jerusalem is the one undivided capital of the Jewish state and the Arab governments stop funding terrorist organisations & provide compensation for those Jewish families who were brutally ethnically cleansed from Arab lands after the creation of Israel.

But regardless, President Peres was, I thought, especially moving in his remarks and prayers (which contrasted to Abbas quite nicely) -

"Two peoples – Israelis and Palestinians – still are aching for peace. The tears of mothers over their children are still etched in our hearts. We must put an end to the cries, to the violence, to the conflict. We all need peace. Peace between equals.

On this moving occasion, brimming with hope and full of faith, let us all raise with you, Your Holiness, a call for peace between religions, between nations, between communities, and between fellow men and women. Let true peace become our legacy soon and swiftly.Our Book of Books commands upon us the way of peace, demands of us to toil for its realization....

I was young, now I am old. I experienced war, I tasted peace. Never will I forget the bereaved families, parents and children, who paid the cost of war. And all my life I shall never stop to act for peace for the generations to come. Let's all of us join hands and make it happen.

Let me end with a prayer: He who makes peace in the heavens shall make peace upon us and upon all of Israel, and upon the entire world, and let us say Amen."

9 June 2014 at 11:47  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9 June 2014 at 12:07  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Not wrong there Brian.

9 June 2014 at 12:07  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Blowers
"Prayer has a political strength that we maybe don't even realize and should be exploited to the full. Prayer has the ability to transform hearts and thus to transform history."
(Cardinal Pietro Parolin)

Sister Tiberia, let's call Pope Francis a "channel of peace" and not "a tool". The latter term is open to misunderstanding.

9 June 2014 at 12:21  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

I don't suppose it would be politic to mention the obvious syncretism in this Papal act, would it. It seems any theological abomination is acceptable so long as it is done in the name of peace.

Or perhaps Elijah got it wrong, then. Maybe he should have prayed with the Prophets of Baal on the assumption that Baal and God were both manifestations of the same divine.

carl

9 June 2014 at 12:49  
Blogger Father David said...

Carl, I can't see how this was in any way an act of syncretism as the three great monotheistic religions prayed separately in strict chronological order - Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

9 June 2014 at 13:05  
Blogger Len said...

As Chamberlain said" peace in our time."that waving of a peace of paper symbolized the utter futility of not facing reality or knowing the real intentions of all parties concerned."They will say peace peace but there will be no peace".(Jeremiah 6:14)Anyone remember Sharon and Gaza?.
Why cannot we learn from history.?

9 June 2014 at 13:14  
Blogger Sister Tiberia said...

We are all tools in the hands of the Spirit, HJ. But I see your point :)

9 June 2014 at 13:34  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Father David

The order means less than nothing yo me. This prayer meeting only makes sense given the assumption that all three religions worship the same God - which they manifestly do not.

carl

9 June 2014 at 13:38  
Blogger bluedog said...

Well said, David Kavanagh. Israel must not allow herself to be shamed into peace and disarmed by those who only seek her destruction.

9 June 2014 at 13:42  
Blogger Matt said...

Hello.. long time reader, first time commenter!

On a slight sidenote.... this article by Melanie Phillips found its way into my inbox the other day.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/jesus-was-a-palestinian-the-return-of-christian-anti-semitism/

In it she laments the Church of England's increasing identification with the Palestinian Cause, to the point of active hostility towards the Jewish state and indifference towards the security and safety of Jews.

Most alarmingly she suggests that this is predicated by ideas of replacement theology.

I wondered what other commentators thought about this? Does she have a point? Is she exaggerating?

9 June 2014 at 13:52  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Father David (13:05)—the three great monotheistic religions

One of the profound theological differences alluded to by Prophet Cranmer is that, according to Islam, Christianity is polytheistic:

Unbelievers are those that say: ‘Allah is one of three.’ There is but one God. If they do not desist from so saying, those of them that disbelieve shall be sternly punished.—Qur’an 5:73

Another is that Islam sees Christianity not as a religion but as a remnant cult:

Previously revealed religions were valid in their own eras, as is attested to by many verses of the Holy Koran, but were abrogated by the universal message of Islam, as is equally attested to by many verses of the Koran. It is unbelief (kufr) to hold that the remnant cults now bearing the names of formerly valid religions, such as ‘Christianity’ or ‘Judaism’, are acceptable to Allah Most High after He has sent the final Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) to the entire world.—Reliance of the Traveller, section w4.1

9 June 2014 at 14:16  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Johnny R

What part of this did you fail to understand:

" .... peace will not come to the Middle East until profound theological differences are acknowledged and addressed, for they run far deeper than the political. There can be no political solution to this dispute until there is a theological solution."

Carl
"This prayer meeting only makes sense given the assumption that all three religions worship the same God - which they manifestly do not."

See above.

They believe they worship the same God - and each says the other is mistaken. For the Jews, Christianity and Islam are corruptions of their faith; for Christians, Judaism was fulfilled in Christ; and for Islam, both have been superseded by their Prophet.

9 June 2014 at 14:35  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

Bluedog: cheers me old hound

Carl,Happy Jack and Father David:

I don't worship Allah or Jesus. Not very liberal or ecumenical of me, but I don't.

Matt:

I read the article you provided in the link. I agree replacement theology was a way of kicking Jews around the place for 2,000 years, so I'm not surprised that the Pals are leaping onto anything than can demonise Israel (conveniently forgetting that Christians are only protected in Israel, whilst they are being persecuted & slaughtered en masse everwhere else in the region).

I think my Christian cousins who hold to what I've been told is 'duel covenant theory' and rightly reject replacement theology get called all sorts of names. Heretic being one.

As for Jesus as a Palestinian; having read the New Testament it is quite clear that he was born a Jew, lived a Jew and died a Jew. To try and deny Jesus-y Jewishness is just another crude attempt to attack Jews.

9 June 2014 at 14:59  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Matt, I no longer live in England and can’t give you a full answer to your question. Certainly there are some C of E clergy who are furiously, passionately anti-Israel, such as the notorious Stephen Sizer, the vicar of Virginia Water in Surrey, who seems to have enjoyed the full support of the bishop of Guildford, Christopher Hill, prior to his retirement a few months ago.

Here in Brazil it’s the Catholic clergy who tend to obediently follow the conventional anti-Israel line, while the numerous Protestant and Pentecostal churches are generally pro-Israel. It’s not uncommon here to see Israeli flag bumper stickers, which is a sign that the owner of the car is what they call here an evangélico, the standard term for any Protestant.

9 June 2014 at 15:18  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Happy Jack (14:35)—By drawing Father David’s attention to a couple of the profound theological differences, I was hoping to disabuse him of his Shangri-La pipe dream. Thank you for calling the JR information service.

9 June 2014 at 15:42  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

JR Information Service, so is the only "solution" a bloody confrontation between Islam and Judaism?

9 June 2014 at 15:48  
Blogger Matt said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9 June 2014 at 16:22  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Happy Jack, it depends what you mean by "solution". For the reasons I stated earlier on this thread (at 11:39), the outlook is that things will porobably continue more or less as they are now, with no two-state solution because that would hit the Palestinian political class where it hurts, in the wallet. And, of course, with no one-state solution either.

9 June 2014 at 16:29  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9 June 2014 at 16:48  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Palestine and Palestinians have never existed. The terms are only lately identified as 'Palestine' as they were by the loose terminologies of Anglo/French involvement.

Even under the Ottomans the area was never referred as Palestine but as a part of Greater Syria.

The West bank was always designed to be part of Israel endorsed b the international law. The Arabs were allocated vastly more of the area to call their own.

Those not born in Gaza or the West Bank are mainly the product from of the call for mass evacuation so that the newly born Sate of Israel could be surrounded and obliterated; the people and the nation, by the combined Arab forces the were well and truly snotted - several times.

The Islamists have and still are playing the long game, reliant on general Western ignorance of the history of the region. Not until 1967 when Jordanian Yozzer Arafat who promoted constant references to 'Palestine' and the 'Palestinians cause' to be the norm.

Jeesze Popes and Politicians eh? Who needs them!

9 June 2014 at 17:03  
Blogger Father David said...

I'd agree Mr. Rottenborough that we are far from establishing Shangri-La in the Middle East, especially with the existence of that hideous wall which separates the two communities and at which Pope Francis prayed. But I'd rather put my faith in hopeful papal initiatives than share your own deep pessimism. For, as the Good Book states "where there is no vision the people perish!"

9 June 2014 at 17:18  
Blogger Hannah said...

Hi Father David ,

I think this was the prayer Pope Frank forgot to say at the security wall, which was built to protect the lives of innocent Israeli civilians against terrorist suicide bombers -

"Thank God Israel has got the security wall, that protects Israeli citizens from being murdered by terrorist suicide bombers, because this, dear lord ,is unacceptable and I apologise to you Jesus, as a Jew, that my Church has for centuries persecuted your people in the name of my religion; that boycotts of Israel is nothing other than an evil and wicked thing to do and that whilst we all want peace in the holy land. this can't be achieved when terrorists are throwing bombs on a daily basis toward Israel, may Israel be blessed and loved as you love her. Let us all say, Amen".

9 June 2014 at 17:35  
Blogger Albert said...

I think this is an excellent thing. In answer to Carl, I think it is worth asking what actually happened. My guess is that three men each prayed according to their own tradition. I can't see anything wrong with that. Sure, I wouldn't join with a Muslim prayer, and there is a question of joining with Jewish prayers insofar as they do not accept the new dispensation. But if I am praying, what does it matter to me if the chap next to me is praying?

9 June 2014 at 17:48  
Blogger Matt said...

Father David might be interested to know that the "hideous wall" is only a "wall" in certain places, and more specifically it is a wall in those places where residents on the Israeli side needed to be protected from Palestinian snipers taking pot shots at them.

Then again, walls have two sides...

Blessings.

9 June 2014 at 17:56  
Blogger Ps John Waller said...

The prayers of two followers of religious systems that deny Christ, added to those of a man who claims to be His representative on earth = three prayers that hit the ornate ceiling and bounce back

9 June 2014 at 18:03  
Blogger Martin Marprelate said...

" .... peace will not come to the Middle East until profound theological differences are acknowledged and addressed, for they run far deeper than the political. There can be no political solution to this dispute until there is a theological solution."

The only way to peace is through the Prince of Peace. Christians should be praying for the progress of the Gospel in both Israel and the rest of the Middle East. The babel of prayers around the Vatican will not achieve it.

BTW, what people ignorantly refer to as "Replacement Theology" is in fact Inclusion Theology. 'For He Himself is our peace, who has made both [Jew and Gentile] one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation.....' (Eph 2:14ff).

9 June 2014 at 18:07  
Blogger Matt said...

Ps John Waller

Do you think God loves Jewish or Muslim children less than he loves Christian children?

9 June 2014 at 18:08  
Blogger Matt said...

Martin Marprelate

No, I was referring to "replacement theology", specifically the idea that God's covenent with the gentiles makes His covenent with the Jews null and void unless they accept Christ as their messiah.

I would like to think that most Christians find this idea repugnant.

9 June 2014 at 18:12  
Blogger Shadrach said...

Blofeld said @ 11.29
Nothing changes when dealing will evil it seems and trying to pretend to see the good where none exists or is shown in practice to observers is intellectually ridiculous and only encourages the wicked in their endeavours.

As ever Blofeld, you say it as it is. You can't negotiate with evil however prayer can cross bridges.

We are co workers with Jesus Christ and therefore we must do whatever must be done.

May God bless the Pope in his efforts to bring these people together.

9 June 2014 at 18:19  
Blogger Father David said...

Matt, of course, I am sure that God loves all His children equally, just as sure as I am that God weeps over the erection of that hideous wall. Just as the Berlin Wall has now been destroyed let us in hope look forward to the day when the wall separating the Israelis and Palestinians, like the walls of Jericho also come tumbling down.

9 June 2014 at 18:20  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Jack

Old Testament Judaism ceased to exist with the destruction of the Temple and the Priesthood. Whatever Judaism is today, it is not the continuation of the Jewish faith from the time of Christ. That Judaism is irrevocably gone and deliberately so. The Old Covenant had fulfilled its purpose. There was no further need for Priests to offer continuing sacrifices because the High Priest had offered the One Sacrifice to take away sin. This is why we are told to evangelize the Jews. It would take a divine act to re-establish OT Judaism. And that act is never forthcoming.

Islam intersects with Christianity in the same way Mormonism does. If you are going to say that Islam and Christianity both present the same God then you had better be prepared to say the same about Mormons. But Mormons are polytheistic pagans. Islam presents,a monotheistic god but that god is not the God revealed in Scripture. Just because a man says he is monotheistic, that doesn't mean he worships God. It just means he asserts that there is only one god.

But in fact we know we do not worship the same God for a man cannot worship that which he does not know. And it is not possible to know the Father without the Son. We have the words of Christ to establish it.

carl

9 June 2014 at 18:22  
Blogger Matt said...

Father David don't you think that God would also weep over the reason for the wall's existence, namely the remorseless and senseless butchering of Jewish men, women and children?

Blessings.

9 June 2014 at 18:26  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Happy Jack (15:48)—Given Islam’s hatred of Jews and its theology of violence, a confrontation seems inevitable; a hadith records Mohammed as saying: ‘The Hour [of the Last Judgment] will not be established until you fight with the Jews’. But, as Dreadnaught says, Islam is in no hurry and it will certainly sit on its hands while Israel has the support of the US.

9 June 2014 at 18:29  
Blogger Father David said...

Matt would you agree that God also weeps over the suffering of His Palestinian children?

9 June 2014 at 18:33  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Albert

What then is the purpose of bringing them together? The prayers of two of the three are vain appeals to a non-existent idol. How does the help anything? The only sense this makes is if we assume a common deity between all three - a deity who gives a common and consistent answer to all three. "We are all supposed to be united in worship of the same God. We should not fight."

You have only to read this blog post to see the destructive impact this action has had. The assumption of three faiths worshipping one God is shot through it. But that is not the truth. To deny Christ is to deny God. It is not properly categorized as worshipping God imperfectly.

carl

9 June 2014 at 18:37  
Blogger Matt said...

Father David I wouldn't presume to know the mind of God, which was why I asked you what you thought.

But as a Christian shouldn't you care more about human suffering than about ugly architecture? You can't deny that the separation barrier has saved countless lives (Israeli and Palestinian). Surely that's something to be thankful for?

9 June 2014 at 18:43  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

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9 June 2014 at 18:45  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Father David

Pessimism does not invalidate the conclusions thereby derived. Not every problem has an acceptable answer. There will be no peace in the Middle East until Muslims give up the desire to destroy the state of Israel. That isn't going to happen any time soon, and no amount of talking or relating or interacting is going to change that. So the wall stays. Because the Israelis are under no compulsion to let the Palestinians kill a certain number of Israelis every year just so you can feel better about the peace process.

If you want to change things, then change the hearts of the Muslim irredentists. Ultimately they must accept defeat. Otherwise, there is no solution. The wall can come down when the Israelis have no further need of it.

carl

9 June 2014 at 18:47  
Blogger Len said...

One could argue that' replacement theology' contributed to the persecution of the Jewish people up to and including the Holocaust...
Replacement theology "is the view that the church is the new or true Israel that has permanently replaced or superseded Israel as the people of God.
(Which is obviously inaccurate and not Biblical)
God`s plan for Israel is well documented in scripture, to pray against the will of God is what these three people are doing and as Carl says which particular god were they addressing?.


9 June 2014 at 18:59  
Blogger Father David said...

Matt when it comes to architecture, I much prefer bridges to walls and good Pope Francis has provided such a bridge with his imaginative and daring Vatican initiative. Thank God that the two Presidents of Israel and Palestine had the courage to walk together across that Tiber bridge and pray in the Vatican Gardens for the peace of Jerusalem.

9 June 2014 at 19:14  
Blogger Len said...

I think the attitude that F David (I call no man father)seems to be taking will become a universal one towards followers of Christ.If we believers make a stand for Biblical Truth we are going to be called pessimists,fundamentalists,causing division, unloving,uncaring divisive,etc...
So we now have a Jesuit Pope who is making an alliance with the word faith movement,and welcoming other faiths and no faiths to join him in creating a Global Community to do good works.I can see Welby and Blair joining as they seem to be of the same mind..a Social Gospel..
This will seem a 'good idea' to many[most]but certainly will do nothing to further the Gospel of Jesus Christ..


9 June 2014 at 19:30  
Blogger Len said...

F David,
Jerusalem is to be 'carved up' and possibly handed over to the Muslims if this peace/prayer/ talk thing goes ahead..

9 June 2014 at 19:33  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Talking are they ? That means the muslim is still building up his depleted stocks of rockets. Still, with international aid and Islamic charities, the day will come again when he can invest his time in a way more in keeping with the aims and practices of Mohamed.

Nobody is taken in by him. You don’t rise to the top of the Saracen shit heap unless you are a cunning bastard with evil in your heart.

Harsh you may think, but undeniably fair. Besides, the muslim foot soldier doesn’t need Presidents to guide him in what he must do. He knows Allah’s will very well. The President is there for show, and he knows it.

One last thing. Has anyone else noticed how Mohamed’s people frequently wait for their prey to be massed in prayer before they visit and slaughter them ? The Pope and the President of Israel might want to be somewhat wary of that as they kneel before our God, not Mohamed’s, with their back turned to Abbas.

9 June 2014 at 19:40  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

Father David,

The security wall has got nothing to do with Palestinian children's suffering. The only people who cause this suffering is the Palestinian leadership and the terrorists organisations that are funded by Arab states and Iran... the security wall has everything to do with preventing the further murder of Israeli civilians; men, women, children, young and old, by terrorists. That wall is therefore not comparable with the Berlin Wall.

9 June 2014 at 20:27  
Blogger Shadrach said...

Inspector. I happened to be at a hospital waiting room today and read an article in the Independent about how a new group of Sunni Muslims were taking over from Alkeida and were gradually forcefully taking over Iraq and Syria to install their form of Sharia government. No hostages taken or mercy shown to Shiite Muslins, Jews or Christians. Crucifixions, beheadings and mutilation being common.

Do we just let them kill each other? Bush and Blair just did not know what they were starting.

BTW. Thanks for jokes. here's one for you.
Q; Why did the Buddhist Monk refuse an anaesthetic for a tooth extraction?
A; Because he wanted to avoid a TransenDentalMedication!

9 June 2014 at 20:32  
Blogger Albert said...

Carl,

This is the Catholic teaching on Islam:

The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

It strikes me that Muslims have some knowledge of God in two ways: natural knowledge - by which we know that the universe has a creator, and because the Qur'an contains some Jewish and Christian teaching.

I think God hears the prayers of Muslims because he is generous, not because they know him.

The Trinitarian question you raise is interesting because the Jews clearly worshipped God without having any Trinitarian background in the OT. I'm sure you'll have an answer to that though.

9 June 2014 at 20:42  
Blogger Preacher said...

The Book of Revelation is surely essential reading when it comes to debate about the continuing power struggle in the Holy land.
In it we see the eventual outcome of greed & the hatred & ambition of man.
Religion is of no use, politics won't work. If all the religions are right, but totally different, then none of them are. They cancel each other out.
Which of the political power brokers can you trust, their own people are resorting to civil war & revolt in this vast lottery for control.

The Book of Revelation is either a Divine prophetic revelation or it should not be in the Bible.

Have we Christians stopped reading our Holy book, or are we avoiding parts of it because we don't like it's message or the idea that we aren't & never were in control?.

Chaos & war are the result of man's sin & rejection of God.
Man's pride will not allow for conviction & repentance, so the only final solution is for God to step in & resort to judgement.
until He does the hate & killing will continue unabated.
But don't just take my word for it. Read it for yourselves.

9 June 2014 at 21:19  
Blogger Sister Tiberia said...

This was the 1970 Novus Ordo prayer for the Jewish people in the Catholic Good Friday service. It replaced one that was considered offensive to the Jews in many ways, mainly due to a poor understanding of the Latin "perfidis"

Let us pray for the Jewish people, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant.

(Prayer in silence. Then the priest says:)

Almighty and eternal God, long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity. Listen to your Church as we pray that the people you first made your own may arrive at the fullness of redemption. We ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen.


I'm not going to go into the one that's now replaced this, because the arguments about the current translation of the Missal will still be raging 20 years from now. This is the prayer I grew up with as a Catholic child.

Hannah, there's another prayer that is (possibly wrongly?) attributed to Saint John XXIII that bears a striking resemblance to what you have said about what you felt that the Pope's prayer at the Wall should have been. John XXIII was the Pope who struck the word "perfidious" out of the Good Friday prayer in the incarnation before the 1970 one.

"The mark of Cain is stamped upon our foreheads. Across the centuries, our brother Abel was lain in blood which we drew, and shed tears we caused by forgetting Thy love. Forgive us, Lord, for the curse we falsely attributed to their name as Jews. Forgive us for crucifying Thee a second time in their flesh. For we knew not what we did."

9 June 2014 at 21:20  
Blogger Hannah said...

Hi Sister Tibs,

Oh I made the prayer up myself. It got deleted from the Telegraph blogs(!).

You know I think people are free to choose to believe what they want. I think the issue is the way in which these prayers and replacement theology was used, not as a theological, but temporal weapon against Jews. That's why there is a reaction against it by David, myself and others who don't see it as 'inclusive theology' as Martin Marprelate sees it.

I also think I agree with Inspector (my girlfriend and I say hi!) that it would have been better for Christians not to have kept the "old testament" as part of their bible, although I see why they do.

But hey, this is the past and we've all got a fab future together where we discuss this stuff in a way which threatens neither faiths and that's what is important.

9 June 2014 at 21:51  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

So much vexation and animosity.

What's clear from all of this is that Christians share no common theology on the Holy Land; neither do Jews, nor Muslims.

What's left?

- it's all hopeless, we'll just wait helplessly for Christ's return and mean time the killing will continue;

- Muslims will wipe out Jews or vice versa and peace of a sort will result; or

- some political settlement will be reached.

The Pope was right to invite the leaders to pray to their respective Gods for peace.

9 June 2014 at 21:53  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Felicitations Shadrach on your joke.

It has left one open mouthed after reading it. (There’s actually some pitiful associated humour in that statement, if you search for it)

As you say, how do we stop the muslim killing his fellow muslim. We’ll just have to have talks, and summits, and whatever while it goes on in a bid to stop it. We can even pass a UN resolution on how dreadful it all is and that we wish it to stop. Anyway, whatever happens it will mean fewer muslims. For God sake bow your head man, and stop grinning.

The Inspector, who doesn’t as a rule pray, as he sides with the “what’s the point” school of philosophy, will actually pray tonight at bedtime that the Archbishop has the goings on in Midland schools as his topic tomorrow. Would like to comment on that, I can tell you !!

Tally ho !

9 June 2014 at 22:06  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

You don’t rise to the top of the Saracen shit heap unless you are a cunning bastard with evil in your heart.

I rarely take anything the Inspector of Whatever spits in to the soup de-joure of these threads from time to time but, but I'll tip my hat to him as soon as my sides stop aching from laughing at his latest gobbett of witty incisive comment.

Bravo you bastard!

9 June 2014 at 22:19  
Blogger Pubcrawler said...

This prayer-in was marked with a celebratory fireworks display in Gaza. Bodes well for the future.

Incidentally, another senior figure was present at the event, but not many people seem to have noticed or considered it important enough to report. Including His Grace, it seems.

9 June 2014 at 22:51  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

One can only say you are a man of occasional impeccable cognisance Dreadnaught, you despicable blighter...

9 June 2014 at 22:51  
Blogger Martin Marprelate said...

There is only one people of God- those who have trusted in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile. 'For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call on Him. For "Whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved"' (Romans 10:12-13).

What Israel needs is not walls or tanks or the uncritical support of Dispensationalists, but the very same thing that the Palestinians and rest of the world needs- the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Unfortunately, I see no indication that the Bishop of Rome knows what the Gospel is, and it's a dead cert that the other two guys don't.

9 June 2014 at 23:22  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Martin M, a rather small minded comment, don't you think? It seems he's acting in a generous and Christ like manner to Happy Jack.

Such suspicion and mistrust from most commentators!

Francis is being attacked on all fronts, including from within Catholicism. For what? Offering an opportunity for three faiths at war with one another (and the divided Roman and Orthodox Church) to meet and pray, according to their understanding of the one God, for peace and brotherly love. Not forgetting the planting of four olive trees to symbolise growth and fruitfulness.

Give the man a break!

10 June 2014 at 00:08  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Albert

Re: Catholic teaching on Islam.

I wonder what the delegates to the (infallible) Council of Trent would have thought about that teaching. Well. No, actually I don't. That teaching is just wrong, and for all the reasons I have previously listed. It is however very Vatican II-ish. (As an aside, let me quite my very Catholic friend: "Yes, I have heard of Vatican II. And I ignore it.")

Re: The Trinity.

I suppose your statement might have some relevance if we existed before the Incarnation. But we don't.

Re: Muslims knowing God.

Natural man suppresses the truth of general revelation and winds up worshipping rocks and birds and Allah. He refuses to learn of God from it. And if simply having access to teaching taught something about God then there would be no liberal Christianity. The Mormons would not exist. The Christ would not gave been rejected by His own people. Access to information about God does not inevitably lead to knowledge about God - let alone knowledge of God.

carl

10 June 2014 at 04:05  
Blogger Albert said...

Carl,

Perhaps I'm reading this too quickly, but maybe the difference between us is over natural knowledge of God. We think we can have it, you think we can't. Am I right? I would say that Vatican II is doing something like Paul in relation to the unknown God.

What the Council is doing is rejoicing in what truth is found in Islam. In the end though, Catholic teaching remains the same: non-Catholic religions are wrong, except for where they agree with Catholicism.

10 June 2014 at 07:44  
Blogger Len said...

One can sense a supernatural power emanating from the Pope and effecting all around him.Very beguiling and extremely dangerous.The' wound in the head' has healed and the RCC is coming into a time of its greatest ever power.
We should perhaps remember that deception is a very insidious thing.It appears to be' good.'
How could two perfect people living in a perfect world be persuaded to rebel against their Creator?. How could men of God such as David and countless others be tempted to sin to commit adultery and even murder...the same deceiving deceptive power that appears as' good.'
We need spiritual discernment in these days to discern what appears to be good from what God calls good.
The Pope comes from a religion which has a long line of men who have claimed to be of God even' AS' God . The man of sin is being revealed.... “As this evil began in the apostles’ days, and was to continue in the world till the second coming of Christ in power and great glory: it necessarily follows, that it was to be carried on not by one man, but by a succession of men in several ages”

10 June 2014 at 09:11  
Blogger Albert said...

Len,

The Pope comes from a religion which has a long line of men who have claimed to be of God even' AS' God .

I think we have been through this false claim many times before. I am surprised you still make it.

10 June 2014 at 11:58  
Blogger Matt said...

Carl Jacobs

Old Testament Judaism ceased to exist with the destruction of the Temple and the Priesthood. Whatever Judaism is today, it is not the continuation of the Jewish faith from the time of Christ.

I wonder what the rabbi Jesus would have thought about one of his followers denigrating the faith and people that he loved so much?

10 June 2014 at 12:02  
Blogger William Lewis said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10 June 2014 at 12:56  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10 June 2014 at 13:26  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Matt

I haven't denigrated anything. I have simply stated a theological and historical fact. At the center of OT Judaism was the Temple. At the center of the Temple was the Priesthood built upon descent from Levi. Those genealogical records are gone. Which means the Priesthood is gone. Which means the Temple - even if it was rebuilt - could have no priests to serve in it.

And that makes sense because OT Judaism was purposed to point toward and bring forth the Messiah. Judaism had no purpose after the Incarnation. There was no longer any need for the High Priest to enter the Holy of Holies to make sacrifice. The Messiah had done that to fulfillment.

carl

10 June 2014 at 13:35  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Albert

maybe the difference between us is over natural knowledge of God.

I think the difference is more about what men do with that knowledge. Men might know things but that doesn't mean they comprehend or believe it.

The issue to me is this. Just because a man might get some things right, that doesn't make him closer to apprehending Truth. The Greeks to whom Paul spoke worshipped an unknown god. But their conception of that god was entirely pagan. They weren't closer to Truth because they postulated a god whom they didn't know. They were still trapped in darkness and unbelief. They were right about the unknown God but that knowledge provided them no benefit. It simply gave Paul an opportunity.

The Muslim says God is one. He gets that right. But that doesn't indicate he closer to God than the pagan. The Muslim is still trapped in darkness. He does not manifest the reception of light by the fact that he is monotheistic. He manifests a different form of unbelief. His monotheism is part of his wholly wrong religion.

carl

10 June 2014 at 14:18  
Blogger Albert said...

I agree and disagree, Carl. I think that a person who, by philosophical argument recognizes that there is a God is apprehending some kind of Truth. It's just the the relationship is I-It rather than I-You. God would be an object, a necessary postulate, not someone known.

The "pagan" is imprecise. Aristotle was nearer to knowing God than someone who worships trees.

They were still trapped in darkness and unbelief.

Certainly. Which bit of the Catholic teaching are you taking exception to?

10 June 2014 at 14:32  
Blogger Matt said...

Carl Jacobs

" Judaism had no purpose after the Incarnation."

The fact that millions still follow, study and teach Judaism after two millenia and in spite of relentless attempts to destroy it, would seem to contradict this view.

"I haven't denigrated anything."

I'm not sure that adherents to the religion of which you speak would necessarily agree with you there.

10 June 2014 at 15:03  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Albert

I take exception to virtually the whole paragraph you cited but my objections can be summarized with this:

They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth

No, they don't. They hate the Living God and substitute an idol in His place. That is the fundamental error in that teaching.

carl

10 June 2014 at 15:05  
Blogger Albert said...

Carl,

I think all that means is that they recognize that there is one God who created everything, and they adore that creator as creator and rejoice in his mercies and power.

This seems to me to leave Trinitarian teaching untouched.

10 June 2014 at 15:22  
Blogger Hannah said...

Hi Matt,

Yes, we survive somehow (:

I wouldn't worry about Carl as he is a stalwart supporter of Israel, so he OK really. Most of the time.

10 June 2014 at 17:36  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Albert
"I think we have been through this false claim many times before. I am surprised you still make it."

It's either down right fabrication or, being kind, a mix of intellectual limitation with incorrigible ignorance. Jack also suspects he posts these comments to antagonise Catholics.

AsLen himself posted:

"We should perhaps remember that deception is a very insidious thing."

Oh, the irony!

10 June 2014 at 17:38  
Blogger Matt said...

Hannah thanks and understood. I'm C of E myself but it was the Jewish peoples' miraculous survival and rebirth that moved me to faith. But I'm still learning and trying to understand how it all fits together.

Thanks.

10 June 2014 at 18:10  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Matt

I try to post by a few simple rules.

1. Learn what you opponent believes.

2. Represent him accurately.

3. Respect the man because he is more than the sum of his beliefs.

I don't pander to other religions/worldviews. I don't expect people to pander to mine. I won't shade the truth just because someone might get offended. I don't expect others to tell me that what I believe is true.

If a man tells me that the Lord Jesus is,dead and in a grave, I don't feel denigrated. I am secure enough to deal with that. I trust the other commenters here to understand that, and to reciprocate.

carl

10 June 2014 at 18:16  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Of course it goes without saying that none of that applies to those sad individuals who have some allegiance to Manchester United. These pathetic creatures rightly deserve contemptuous derision and should be driven to the fringes of society to live out their wretched existence in solitude and misery ...

Oh. Hi, Jack. Didn't see you standing there.

10 June 2014 at 18:21  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Matt, sometimes you have to ignore and rise above some comments.

10 June 2014 at 19:23  
Blogger Len said...

I think anyone with a whit of sense after looking at a history of the Papacy would realize that there was something drastically wrong with the religion that they represent.
The only thing that makes sense to me is that God has given these people(after repeated attempts to warn them) over to the great deception and that for them there is no way out...

I suppose it reflects back to Job who was tested to see who had the greater influence over him God or Satan....
Well we know how that worked out and I wonder how people will stand this time of testing that is coming upon us?.

10 June 2014 at 19:24  
Blogger Len said...

HJ,(10 June 2014 19:23)

You will be putting your advice into practice some time soon?.

10 June 2014 at 19:26  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Carl, no child of God deserves that - not even dour, trigger-happy, Calvinists.

10 June 2014 at 19:26  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Not while you post such b*llocks, no, Len.

10 June 2014 at 19:28  
Blogger Hannah said...

Hi Matt,

This blog will a baptism of fire then as there are some people who don't give an inch and are somewhat... extreme.

"I'm C of E myself but it was the Jewish peoples' miraculous survival and rebirth that moved me to faith. But I'm still learning and trying to understand how it all fits together"

Cool.I have paternal cousins who are C of E and one of my best friends is a gay Anglican. And yes we Jews survive- somehow !

11 June 2014 at 07:49  
Blogger Len said...

Happy Jack (10 June 2014 19:28 )
perhaps if you 'grew a pair' then you might be able to question some of the RCC false doctrines?.


11 June 2014 at 09:41  
Blogger Len said...

Perhaps this might be of interest to anyone who follows Bible prophesy relating to the Pope, the Jews, Islam and the historic events that are taking place as revealed in Bible prophecy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8IDcAI83oE#t=125

11 June 2014 at 14:04  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

11 June 2014 at 14:24  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Len

Any time someone sneezes in the Middle East, someone else is sure to write a book explaining its relationship to prophesy. It's a cottage industry, and people lap it up because they love the idea of knowing secret knowledge. And all of it based on the wooden exegesis of Darby. Its all nonsense.

After the Iraq War, the shelves were filled with prophesy books. That was ten years ago. Did any of it amount to anything? I remember reading furtive warnings about the ten horns when the European Common Market got to ten countries. I have been told that falling stars are nuclear weapons in orbit. And of course it was at one time obvious that the Soviet Union was Gog and Magog. How do I take this method seriously? It changes with every rising of the sun.

The Book of Revelations is apocryphal literature. It's not intended to be read as literal history. Darby not withstanding.

carl

11 June 2014 at 14:27  
Blogger Len said...

The book of revelation is prophecy given in symbolism authored by God Himself...
I am not talking about 'prophecy books' but the Word of God.

11 June 2014 at 15:44  
Blogger Len said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

11 June 2014 at 15:53  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Len

Handling the Word means rightly dividing it. That doesn't involve stuffing the latest Middle Eastern politics du jour into every available nook and cranny of the Book of Revelations. That inverts the proper relationship of prophesy to the world. It assumes that prophesy is being fulfilled before our eyes and therefore seeks to conform observed events to that paradigm. But how do you validate any of this? You really have to deal with the fact that this has been going on for decades. People have been making these claims for a long time and those claims haven't panned out. Neither have those claims been consistent.

People want to see prophesy fulfilled. They want to live in special times and see special things. So they take a hammer and a crowbar and they force things into Revelation and say "Look! Prophesy fulfilled." In the end, they are treating the Scripture like the writings of Nostradamus.

carl

11 June 2014 at 18:04  
Blogger Albert said...

Careful Carl, at this rate, Len will be forced to give up his Rome is the whore of Babylon interpretation.

11 June 2014 at 23:06  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Albert

Len will be forced to give up his Rome is the whore of Babylon interpretation

Wait. What's that you are saying? You mean that ...

WHAT HAVE I DONE!?

[skitters away and hides]

11 June 2014 at 23:33  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

I see Mundabor (which site I read for my sins) has linked to an article in which the Pope says Arms Manufacturers are going to Hell. So evidently it's quite acceptable to be a rank unbeliever. Its quite acceptable to bring them to the Vatican for an impromptu prayer meeting - in order to pray to ... whomever. It's probably also acceptable to be a Police Officer or Soldier since the Pipe didn't mention them. But if you make the weapons used by Police officers and Soldiers, then you are going straight to Hell.

Was anyone thinking when they made this guy Pope?

Here is the link. Sorry its not formatted.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2014/06/11/pope-francis-arms-manufacturers-are-merchants-of-death/

carl

12 June 2014 at 00:15  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Nah, you fail to understand that Len is one of a rare breed - a 'Bible Believing Christian'. The rest of us just aren't and we don't get it at all. We are trapped by 'religious systems'.

Yes Carl, even you.

Take this: "The book of revelation is prophecy given in symbolism authored by God Himself...".

Wow!

Who can reasonably argue with that? Of course, he completely failed to understand the actual point being made about man's need for interpretation. Or perhaps he just ignored it. Even Jesus in His humanity didn't know the detail but some 'insiders' do. Trouble is they keep getting it wrong.

Happy Jack, being a simple Roman Catholic, not blessed with prophetic insight, believes we may well all be surprised by God's final actions. Remember, the Jews were, despite knowing the Torah and Prophets back to front.

12 June 2014 at 00:30  
Blogger Ivan said...


No, no Carl instead of taking our lead from a somewhat buffoonish Pope, let us instead put our trust in the seriously heavy brains in Washington, who could not anticipate the revival of Sunni fundamentalists' fortunes in Iraq and Afghanistan. They know best and have the guns to prove it.

12 June 2014 at 03:22  
Blogger Len said...

Carl,

You might as well tear out the pages of the bible that you disagree with or cannot understand(just like the Catholics do)...and throw them away?
The Book of Revelation is a book of prophecy given by God Himself to warn us of things to come so that we can be prepared .I am surprised[perhaps not] that you have rejected this.Perhaps you have not ripped out the Book of Daniel out yet?(it is prophecy after all).If so look at Chapter 12 it says 'the wise' will understand..(conversely those 'not wise' will not understand which places you in that camp with the Catholic home guard?)

Anticipating the response of the pack baying for blood at my heels.'if anyone lacks wisdom ask God for it'or just bury your head in the sand?.

It is the holy Spirit who interprets scripture H J not the bunch of corrupt men you have placed your trust in.

12 June 2014 at 10:24  
Blogger Albert said...

Len,

You might as well tear out the pages of the bible that you disagree with or cannot understand(just like the Catholics do)...and throw them away?

Oh the irony!

It is the holy Spirit who interprets scripture H J not the bunch of corrupt men you have placed your trust in.

Still more irony.

12 June 2014 at 10:48  
Blogger Len said...

The RCC is a false religion, a corruption of Christianity of that no discerning person could doubt...
The tragedy of Catholicism is that many are trapped within this false religious system and can see no alternative.Many have tried to reform the RCC but have failed because the foundation of the RCC is false therefore the whole edifice is faulty. The evidence of this false religion [RCC) is now overwhelming so to not know the truth about it is without excuse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oLtB0WI57o

12 June 2014 at 11:13  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

No, Len. You are not going to rescue a failed position by curling up in a ball, hurling accusations of infidelity to Scripture in dramatic "I knew it all along" fashion, and justifying yourself with bleats about a non-existent pack of wolves baying for your blood.

Here, let me simplify this argument. You, being wise, will instruct me. Was Gog and Magog properly identified as the Soviet Union? Because there was at one time a whole lot of people who examined the events of the Middle East in relation to prophesy and said "The Soviet Union is Gog and Magog." So then. Were they right?

carl

12 June 2014 at 11:51  
Blogger Albert said...

Len,

The RCC is a false religion, a corruption of Christianity of that no discerning person could doubt...

Leninism is a false religion, a corruption of Christianity of that no discerning person could doubt...

If I had time I'd post a youtube video to prove it beyond all doubt.

12 June 2014 at 12:18  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

"Leninism" - that made Jack chuckle.

12 June 2014 at 15:14  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

"Leninism" - that made Jack chuckle.

12 June 2014 at 15:14  
Blogger Len said...

Well if that`s the best response you Catholics can muster...pathetic....

carl I used to think you were pretty bright..used...

13 June 2014 at 08:36  
Blogger Len said...

Here`s a few question for Carl and the Catholics (bit hard to differentiate sometimes all that knee jerking going on humorous but a bit sad?)
Why does God gives us Prophecy?(because it makes a nice story to pass the time according to Carl?)Catholics ignore prophecy too because it exposes them for what they are?So best not read it on your own without a Priest looking over your shoulder to make sure you get 'the right interpretation'.
'The wise will understand'(Carl apparently didn`t probably the knee jerking distracted him?)
The the answer to the problem(which they ALL missed (knee jerking again?)

IF ANYONE LACKS WISDOOM ASK GOD (NOT LEN)FOR IT)

What a bunch of muppets(without the humour)

13 June 2014 at 08:47  
Blogger Albert said...

Len,

Well if that`s the best response you Catholics can muster...pathetic....

?

What I did, Len, was repeat your own argument! (Not because I admired it, too, but now it seems I wasn't the only one not to admire it.)

13 June 2014 at 12:04  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

13 June 2014 at 12:29  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Len

I'm not asking about a Priest looking over your shoulder. I'm asking about the identification of the Soviet Union as Gog and Magog. Did you perhaps overlook that question? Because I didn't see an answer to it amongst all that invective.

carl

13 June 2014 at 12:49  
Blogger William Lewis said...

Jack

Your incontinent bird seems to have escaped again. Does it need counselling?

13 June 2014 at 13:39  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

William Lewis, yes, occasionally he pops up unexpectedly out of the blue.

As Blower's famously said: "You can't keep a good duck down." Or a bad one for that matter.

He's back in his cage now - squawking away!

13 June 2014 at 17:29  
Blogger William Lewis said...

Jack

It must be terribly confusing for you/him/it. Perhaps if you fed it something wholesome it wouldn't be so desperate to get out to pastures new all the time.

13 June 2014 at 19:13  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Now, now, William. No cheep, cheep shots, please.

*chuckle*

13 June 2014 at 21:01  
Blogger Luther said...

And who exactly were they praying to?

Given that their gods are all fundamentally different, it was all 'very nice' for them to do this from a worldly perspective, but utterly meaningless, and quite spiritually deceitful.

(e.g. The Christian God being Triune, and the Islamic religion stating such is pure heresy).

14 June 2014 at 15:05  
Blogger Len said...

Car@(l3 June 2014 12:49) Why should I answer your question about the book of revelation when you don`t even believe it is a prophecy given by God Himself.
Do your own research.

15 June 2014 at 09:15  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Len

Your error is that you mistake prophesy for a geo-political history of the last days. The reason you won't answer my question is two-fold.

1. You can't say "Yes, the Soviet Union was correctly identified as Gog and Magog" because the Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore.

2. You can't say "No" because that demonstrates the inability to validate the claims. As soon as you say "No" I am going to ask "How would someone have known that in 1975?" And then I am going to follow it with "How do I likewise validate your claims today?". And you won't have an answer. So you mewl nonsense about how I should do my own research. I don't need research. I need you to validate your claims.

You are making positive claims that specific historical events are the outworking of prophesy. And yet when I ask you to prove that those events are in fact the events foreseen by the Prophet, you fall silent. And when the outworking of history disproves those claims, you will conveniently forget you ever made them. At which point, you make new claims and start the cycle all over again.

I don't reject prophesy. I reject some guy on a video who presumes to lay a prophetic framework onto the political events of the day, and demands I attribute Scriptural authority to his scheme.

I won't. Certainly not on his say so. And certainly not when I consider the track record of his theological ancestors.

carl

15 June 2014 at 13:35  
Blogger Len said...

Carl Your mistake is that you do not credit God to be able to make Himself understood.

17 June 2014 at 08:37  
Blogger Len said...

Carl this might be of interest to you?.


http://time.com/69161/ukraine-yatsenyuk-putin-soviet-union/

17 June 2014 at 08:52  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Len

Some guy making arbitrary and unsubstantiated correlations between Scripture and historical events is not 'God making Himself understood.'

carl

17 June 2014 at 14:28  
Blogger Len said...

Carl..... We are talking about the Book of Revelation about which you commented; 'the Book of Revelations is apocryphal literature. It's not intended to be read as literal history. Darby not withstanding.'(11 June 2014 14:27) (It is the Revelation no 's' needed BTW.

apocryphal
əˈpɒkrɪf(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: apocryphal

(of a story or statement) of doubtful authenticity, although widely circulated as being true.
"an apocryphal story about a former president"
synonyms: fictitious, made-up, untrue, fabricated, false, spurious; More
imaginary, mythical, legendary;
dubious, doubtful, debatable, questionable, unverified, unauthenticated, unsubstantiated, unsupported

I replied that the author of Revelation was God Himself so your assertion is a false claim .The Book of Revelation chapter 1 'The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him'

Carl,Then you' went off on one 'dragging in 'Gog and Magog' as some sort of 'trick question' presumably to prop up your erroneous position?.
The' Some guy 'you mention is making an attempt to make sense of what is happening today in the light of the book of Revelation which was the point I was making.
Now Carl if you don`t even think the word of God is worth studying and trying to understand fair enough but your denial that the book of Revelation is a book of prophecy given by God only illustrates your total lack of any understanding of the times.




17 June 2014 at 19:31  

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