Sunday, June 22, 2014

'There is no life without Jihad' - the feebleness of the MCB

Pope Francis has (at last) excommunicated the Mafia: their tribal murders, thuggery, intimidation, protection rackets and drug trafficking will be tolerated no more. Their violent culture is deemed to be incompatible with the Roman Catholic religion, and the Pope of Rome has spoken unequivocally: "Repent, or you're going to hell."

Young British Muslims are leaving their university courses to fight with ISIS in Iraq. The above video features a number of them, in particular a medical student previously known as Nasser Muthana, aged 20, now sporting a turban having adopted the name Abu Muthanna al-Yemeni. Apparently his younger brother Anseel, 17, has also joined the Iraq massacre. In the video, Nasser says:
"We are a state who is implementing the Sharia in both Iraq and the Sham. And look at the soldiers, we understand no borders. We have participated in battles in Sham and we will go to Iraq in a few days and we will fight there. We will even go to Lebanon and Jordan with no problems, wherever our Sheikh (Isis leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi) wants to send us."
The film is entitled 'There is no life without Jihad', which calls for their countrymen (ie British Muslims) to "answer the call and fight for Allah". Nasser adds: "Send us: we are your sharp arrows. Throw us at your enemies, wherever they may be."

Another young man in the video, named as Abu Bara Al Hindi, describes jihad as "the cure for depression". Speaking in front of the ISIS black flag, he asks: "Are you willing to sacrifice the fat job you’ve got, the big car you’ve got, the family you have?"

"Are you willing to sacrifice this, for the sake of Allah? Definitely, if you sacrifice something for Allah, Allah will give you 700 times more than this."

The third British jihadist, who calls himself Abu Dujana al-Hindi, says: "A message to the brothers who have stayed behind. You have to ask yourself what prevents you from joining the ranks of the Mujahideen? What prevents you from obtaining martyrdom? You are going to die anyway."

This is essentially a call to religious theological radicalisation and religio-political terrorism.

And the response of the Muslim Council of Britain?

Well, their website is being revamped, and their Twitter feed goes on (and on) about 'British values'. They have, however, put out a statement via Facebook, which includes:
We are concerned by reports of young people from the UK who may feel it necessary to go to the region to help. But travelling to Iraq or Syria will not help the people of those countries, and will cause anguish for worried parents at home. Those going are a very small minority, but our community must come together to demonstrate to young people that there is a better way.
Of course these youths are "a very small minority", but the proportion of Mafiosi to Roman Catholics is also very tiny. Ratio notwithstanding, Pope Francis has denounced them unequivocally and decreed their eternal damnation.

Now, the Muslim Council of Britain is not a pope: in Islam, there is no magisterium; no supreme global religious authority issuing divine words of wisdom (whatever sundry ayatollahs may believe). But the MCB does purport to represent Britain's Muslims and is "one of the UK’s largest and most diverse Muslim umbrella organisation (sic) with over 500 affiliated national, regional and local organisations, mosques, charities and schools". So you'd think they'd be a bit more robust in their denunciation of teenage jihadis.

Ahmed Muthana, 57, is the father of Nasser had Aseel.

He is understandably sad, shocked and devastated at his sons' actions, and so is his wife.

But the father has excommunicated the son. "It's a Muslim thing: you don't keep the devil in your house," he said, as he binned pictures of Nasser. He said if his sons ever return to the UK, he would like to see them jailed. He added that his sons have "betrayed his family and betrayed Britain". "They don't represent me now and I don't want to see them again," he added.

Would that the MCB spoke in such potent terms.


Blogger IanCad said...

You've got it YG.

Time to blow the dust off the old treason statutes.
They worked quite well in the seventeenth century.

God Bless Ahmed Muthana. May he be comforted in his agonies.

22 June 2014 at 11:04  
Blogger bluedog said...

One thing is clear Your Grace, jihad means killing the kuffar, there can be no ambiguity about that.

A very worrying video; it's a siren call for the young, unemployed and disillusioned, offering a deadly form of comradeship and meaning to their inevitably short lives. Cleverly made, though.

But where are the virgins?

22 June 2014 at 11:36  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Well done the Firm.

22 June 2014 at 11:44  
Blogger Len said...

One can but admire Pope Francis(never thought I would be saying that!)for his move condemning the Mafia.
Those Muslims who abhor violence must come out and make their position clear as has Ahmed Muthana and this would possibly prevent many families from suffering grief and loss.

22 June 2014 at 12:11  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

I'm sick of hearing Muslim apologists telling me this is the work or interpretation of their 'religion' of a Tiny Minority.

If this is so, I would expect that with a Billion+ nice-Muslims on this planet, it would be logical to expect them to rectify this situation in an instant.

Big IF! - they are relying on you to to believe that their religion is as benign as you believe it of own.

Detestation of my atheism however,is something that you happily share with them.

22 June 2014 at 12:23  
Blogger Irene's Daughter said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

22 June 2014 at 12:37  
Blogger Irene's Daughter said...

Where is the voice from the British Church pointing out that the ONLY gate to eternal life is Jesus. The same Jesus who cried out in His agony 'Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.'?

22 June 2014 at 12:40  
Blogger Martin said...

Actually Islam is a religion that arose out of war & still considers violence a valid means of spreading it's influence, why would the Muslim Council consider they needed to do anything?

22 June 2014 at 12:41  
Blogger Martin said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

22 June 2014 at 12:43  
Blogger john in cheshire said...

Irene's Daughter, that's precisely the point. I think it's beholden on all leaders of the Christian faith to keep reminding all non-Christians, but muslims in particular that they are bound for Hell unless they recognise Jesus as their Lord. What we can't do of course is force conversions; that's been tried in the past and all but destroyed the Roman Catholic Church.

22 June 2014 at 13:22  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Thank you Your Grace for bringing this before us.

Well done Pope Francis - good man I say !

It is high time for this country's Churches, and all the other faiths who wish to join them, to condemn in forthright terms the deliberate destruction of entire Christian communities in the ME. They should also lose no time in pointing the finger at the politicians who callously ignore the plight of these beleaguered groups. Practical means of rendering assistance must be a priority.

I respect the brave father, Ahmed Muthana, who even in his grief has found the courage to defend unambiguously, that which constitutes right conduct. May God bless him and his remaining family.

It is time now, even for the most self doubting liberals, to recognise reality for what it is, and react accordingly, decisively and in a considered way, to protect our society for the long term. The first step, is to reinstate the Treason Laws. Weak prevarication and self-doubt must end now.

The west needs to rediscover what it is, a society grown from Christian roots. Those roots need reinvigorating, if the plant is to survive yet alone grow well again. Counter intuitive political correctness and a culture of 'equalities', resting upon the false intellectual arguments of relativism , a cultural death wish cult if ever there was one, has the potential to destroy the west if it is not recognised for what it is, and brought to a timely end.

During long ages of instability and turmoil monasteries acted as safe repositories for our western culture, but what would serve the same function today ? Truly, we are sailing through perilous seas. Although an optimist by nature I too anticipate storms ahead, for which we really do need to prepare well, thoughtfully and thoroughly.

22 June 2014 at 13:22  
Blogger Nick said...

While it is true that the number of jihadists from Britian is small, even that small number can cause disproportionate damage if they decide to turn their weapons on the British people. The number of people involved in 9/11 and 7/7 was quite small.

As to excommunication, I suspect these radicalised murderers are so far off the rails that no amount of condemnation back home is going to stop them. They are the sort of killers who understand nothing short of a warning shot between the eyes.

The weak response from the MCB amounts to tacit approval of the merciless blood-lust of these madmen. These people are probably worse than the Nazis because they have no pretence of a proper command structure, and are little more than hate-filled gun-toting butchers. Like the Nazis, they will probably receive the same fate, as the rest of the world unites to remove this cancer from the planet.

22 June 2014 at 13:59  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Would that the MCB spoke in such potent terms

The MCB, having a better understanding of Islam than the hapless Ahmed, probably went as far as it could. Jihad is an obligation and Muslims who answer the call to jihad are more highly regarded by Allah than the stay-at-homes:

[4:95] The believers who stay at home—apart from those that suffer from a grave impediment—are not equal to those who fight for the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home.

From the West’s point of view, Ahmed is the good Muslim who doesn’t take his religion too seriously and his sons are radicalized extremists. From Islam’s point of view, the sons are the good Muslims destined for Paradise and Ahmed is risking his immortal soul. Reasons why Islam is incompatible with the West, number 378.

22 June 2014 at 14:23  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

22 June 2014 at 14:44  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

David Hussell “The west needs to rediscover what it is, a society grown from Christian roots. Those roots need reinvigorating, if the plant is to survive yet alone grow well again. Counter intuitive political correctness and a culture of 'equalities', resting upon the false intellectual arguments of relativism , a cultural death wish cult if ever there was one, has the potential to destroy the west if it is not recognised for what it is, and brought to a timely end. “

Well said David, a lot of people have been saying things like this for quite a long time too yet nothing much is being done by those who govern us. They carry on denigrating Christianity here and supporting atheism and the breakdown of our culture with new laws they create. Islam is NOT equal to Christianity. If those people want to live in Britain then they should have to compromise and adapt to Christian ways. If they don't then they should have to leave. They are lucky we don't kill them as they do to us living in their lands!

22 June 2014 at 14:44  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

n fact I think the death penalty should be brought back for the worst crimes and should apply to cases of terrorism as well. The cost of execution is a lot cheaper than keeping them in HMP for the rest of their lives.

22 June 2014 at 14:52  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Ahmed is the good Muslim who doesn’t take his religion too seriously

That is not what a good Muslim is though.

22 June 2014 at 15:30  
Blogger IanCad said...

Johnny R.

You make for depressing reading.
Can't disagree with you though.
Harmony in our land may be more difficult to achieve than I thought.
I'm sure reason 379 will be along shortly.

22 June 2014 at 15:36  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...


"The cost of execution is a lot cheaper than keeping them in HMP for the rest of their lives. "

I agree.

The thing is that life imprisonment means 5 years / 10 years, for a very few 15 years. Certainly not more than 25 unless you are unfortunately jailed for a crime that the media has decided is really bad.......

I think that life imprisonment it inhumane anyway. Far better to drop off the lifers in say South Shetland and tell them to make the best of it.

They can have all the paedophiles as well while we are at it.

The money we save could be used for something useful, like fixing the roads!


22 June 2014 at 15:37  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Marie 1797
"They are lucky we don't kill them as they do to us living in their lands!"
Well that's funny when I lived in a "Muslim land" it was a lot safer than Britain was.There was plenty of sunshine too.

22 June 2014 at 15:43  
Blogger Jay Bee said...

Typical feeble response from the Muslim Council of Britain. If anyone tries to corner them about extremism
they avoid directly answering questions, and become noticeably uncomfortable when pressed for a clear response. This behaviour only fuels suspicion about their agenda.
The final para from JR@14:23 explains why they obfuscate.

22 June 2014 at 16:13  
Blogger IanCad said...

The Happy Warrior @ 4:49

" Come to Jihad--Feel the happiness we are feeling-"

The joy attendant on slitting throats, shooting unarmed prisoners and causing mayhem escapes me.
I have to say these guys are total psychopaths.
The only thing they understand is a good shooting -- dead.

22 June 2014 at 16:26  
Blogger Jay Bee said...

It seems that the authorities have lost track of these fanatics (if they ever had tabs on them in the first place)

Former head of counter-terrorism at MI6 told Sky News up to 300 Islamist fighters from Iraq and Syria may have returned to the UK and could be planning to carry out attacks.

Richard Barrett, who spent more than a decade tracking the Taliban in Afghanistan, told the Murnaghan programme the hundreds returning to the UK were an "absolute nightmare" for security services.
He added they did not have the resources to be able to look at all of them.

22 June 2014 at 17:27  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

His Grace has just tweeted from Max 'I hate Britain' Hastings.

"""I recently read both Koran and Bible from cover to cover, and can assure you that the latter is more bloodthirsty" …"

Recently..RECENTLY?...from cover to cover...FROM COVER TO COVER.??

FGS. Is there NOTHING that a journalist with an angle to push, will not say to try to hedge the argument in their favour of their 'scholarly' article, despite the ridiculousness of their comments?


The liar puts Christians and Muslims to shame then!!
E S Blofeld

22 June 2014 at 17:31  
Blogger The Explorer said...

A peace-loving religion distorted by a few extremists (the official view of the Western elites, even now); or a war-loving religion tamed for a while but now returning to its roots (the conclusion from even a casual reading of the Koran.

PS: An interesting statistic I came across recently: it is estimated that 80 million Hindus, Buddhists, Jains etc died in the Muslim assaults on India. If true, that puts the Muslims right up there with the Marxists as mass exterminators of their fellow humans.

22 June 2014 at 17:41  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

The Explorer said...

What old Ernst would like to know and perhaps JR will advise.

What is the % breakdown of Muslim sects in the UK..Sunni, Shia, Etc.

This would show that whoever we try to placate in that madhouse region called the Middle East, will only cheese off the others, with more of our 'British' economic migrants threatening us with Jihad.

Damned if you...Blah Blah.


22 June 2014 at 17:51  
Blogger David Hussell said...

The Explorer @ 17.41

Your "PS...." paragraph two..

Which period and invasion (?) or wars does the estimated figure come from, please, I'd be interested.

The Koran makes interesting reading, although it is hard work and a few years back, in my case. One commentator I read, on a compare and contrast basis, of the Hebrew Bible and the Koran, said that the blood thirsty parts of the OT were descriptions of what happened, histories of wars, as opposed to exhortations. Is that fair ?

22 June 2014 at 18:28  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ IanCad (15:30)—Islam is very depressing. A charlatan invents an appalling religion for his personal gratification, puts a monstrous god at the head of it, and centuries later it’s thriving fit to kill.

@ ESB + T (17:51)—The Wiki page ‘Islam in the United Kingdom’ has 400,000 Shias in a total Muslim population of 3 million.

22 June 2014 at 18:31  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Phil I wasn't just speaking in monetary terms of cost, although with the money saved I think it would be more than would be needed for road repairs, but the whole costs. The fact they spread their evil around to indoctrinate others thereby strengthening their networks and increasing the bill for MI5 and 6, when out instead of having their radical extreme beliefs challenged by Christians and becoming de-radicalised and British law abiding citizens or going back to an Islamic state.

Well I have a friend whose daughter and family are currently living and working in Bahrain, she is a teacher. They are non practising Christians. They have to stay within the compound with other westerners, of course there is everything there for them in terms of facilities. They are told to remain in the safe area.

22 June 2014 at 18:58  
Blogger The Explorer said...

David H @ 18:28

My source was Will Durant on the Daniel Pipes site.

The 80 million covers the period from 1000 (conquest of Afghanistan) to 1525 (end of Delhi Sultanate).

Bloodthirstty bits of OT.

1. Element of Eastern hyperbole. Kill everything etc, but then one reads about having to attack the same group again.

2. Exhortation, certainly. If not, then just an attempt to use divine command to justify conquest, as with the 'Aeneid'.

3. OT commands specific, and terminated by the NT. Koran, on my reading, open-ended, and ongoing.

22 June 2014 at 19:49  
Blogger David Hussell said...

The Explorer

Thank you. I am only vaguely aware of the Islamic conquests of that part of the globe.

Your point 3 is crucial. Any encouragement to kill under the Old Covenant ends abruptly with the New, for Christian based cultures. It does not continue other than for, I would argue, self defence , or under limited circumstances, the "justified wars" politico-religious doctrine, which I approach with extreme caution. Some Christians who visit this blog are almost pacifist, and have argued strongly against my vigorous approach to a strong self-defence military posture. Our Jewish friends will have their own way of approaching their Hebrew Bible obviously and I would be interested in that. It is the on-going nature of Jihad that stands out for me, as you say.

22 June 2014 at 20:00  
Blogger Sister Julian said...

As long as the west - i.e.the US and the MSM in this country continues to play down the ghastly mess these jihadists are creating there can be no solution. The US Senator McCain (I think that's his name) has even said that Allahu Akbhar means 'Thank God'. We are being led into dangerous waters. For more information on what Islam is doing in various parts of the world look up Raymond Ibrahim and his writings, I get them in my in-box regularly and they would turn my hair white if it weren't white already! Seriousl, dreadful stuff and no-one is prepared to put his/her head above the parapet and say what is happening. I also agree with the remarks about Max Hastings; I was shocked to read his piece in the paper.

22 June 2014 at 20:44  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

The OT is descriptive of wars, battles, bloodbaths and atrocities long ago.

The Koran is prescriptive of wars, battles, bloodbaths and atrocities yet to come.

80 million slaughtered on Islam's eastern front?

You ain't seen nothing yet!

22 June 2014 at 20:50  
Blogger David Hussell said...

seanrobsville @ 20.50

You have expressed the point I referred to @ 18.28, but more succinctly.

22 June 2014 at 21:15  
Blogger Nick said...

Just watched a feature on this story by the BBC; a reminder of why I normally avoid the beeb, especially its news reporting.

First, they spent a long time letting the father tell us what "lovely" boys they are. They then interviewed an ex head of anti-terrorism from MI6, who explained that many of these British jihadists were in fact going to Syria and Ieaq to do "humanitarian" work. They are doing this because of their need to find "identity" he said. He also said they had become radicalised largely because of our failure to accept, educate, and provide a future for them. He also seemed to be saying that attacks such as 7/7 are to be expected but that such things should be accepted as part of British life.

No mention of the exhortation to violence by the Islamic religion, of course.

I find it alarming that such PC nonesense has permeated the ranks of those who are supposed to be protecting us from terrorists.

22 June 2014 at 21:38  
Blogger bluedog said...

The Explorer, David Hussell and Blofeld, a best selling book in the US published 2013 is 'Zealot' by Reva Aslan. Aslan is a Turkish Sufi Muslim who makes much of his claim he was once a Christian, his clear implication being that Christianity is deficient. 'Zealot' is an overt attempt to discredit Christ by portraying him as a violent revolutionary in the manner of Mahommed.

Even the Guardian could see through Aslan's fabrication:

If a similar book were to be published about Mahommed, would it reach the US best seller lists and how would the Ummah react?

However the need to publicly denounce Islam by an actor of impeccable moral authority grows by the hour. Pope Benedict made a good start with his Regensburg address in 2005 but later buckled. The memory of an earlier assassination attempt on his predecessor and the intervention of 139 Muslim scholars seem to have forced Benedict's retraction.

Step forward, Justin Cantuar?

22 June 2014 at 21:53  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

@ bluedog

Pastor Jerry Vines is your man.

"Allah is not Jehovah… Jehovah's not going to turn you into a terrorist that'll try to bomb people and take the lives of thousands and thousands of people," ...."Islam was founded by Muhammad, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives, and his last one was a 9-year-old girl."

22 June 2014 at 22:11  
Blogger bluedog said...

Thank you, seanrobsville @ 22.11

One day a Western political leader needs to take a public stand on Islam. Barrack Hussein Obama seems an unlikely prospect.

It is just possible that Angela Merkel could be the one. Her stance in denouncing multiculturalism was both impressive and courageous.

22 June 2014 at 22:20  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

There are slight glimmerings of brain activity within the Conservative Party. Liam Fox has stated that 'Jihadists hate us because of who we are'

So it isn't due to living in deprived neighbourhoods!

If he manages to connect two or three more dots to his picture, then the true scenario may emerge.

Or would that vision be just too Islamophobic to contemplate?

22 June 2014 at 22:32  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

The lads may have broken Islamic law. Section o9.5 of Reliance of the Traveller says that ‘someone with at least one Muslim parent’ may not fight in jihad ‘until they give their permission’. There is a proviso, however, that could save the lads’ bacon: if ‘the Muslims are surrounded by the enemy’ they can fight ‘without permission.’ Surrounded by the enemy in Wales, surrounded by the enemy in Syria and Iraq… Yeah, should be okay.

22 June 2014 at 22:33  
Blogger skeetstar said...

Explorer, I don't recall the source, but I do recall reading that the religion of peace has been responsible for 250 million deaths world wide, since its inception. I am sure max Hastings will be able to find some stat somewhere to state that Christianity is responsible for twice that number.

22 June 2014 at 22:34  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Old Ernst keeps reading that UKIP will sort out this mess regarding jihads, yet as far as Blowers has read from UKIP, the problem is from unfettered EU migrants and NOT 3rd world Islamists, in their eyes.

If Merkel is the answer, then we are truly and federally shafted on all political fronts?


22 June 2014 at 22:36  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Doesn't it say in the Koran that they are obliged to take over wherever they go by whatever means possible? That the Shia strain is less virulent than others does not mean that they wont be giving up infiltrating our country.

Be interesting to see what parts of the country harbours which strain? I wonder where all the Shias come from? If a big proportion are Syrian then a lot of them are likely to be quite civilised. I remember a BBC news report last year from one of the cities most badly hit by the war, amongst all the chaos, shelling, gunfire and grenades going off in the streets, the Theatre was full of local civilians listening to one of Syria’s top classical concert pianists in full evening attire beautifully playing a shiny black grand piano. The audience concentrating hard trying to forget their worries and the war going on outside. Afterwards he said in an interview that it was all he could do to try and help people retain some normality and escape from what was happening for a couple of hours. Then we saw the stage crew running with this beautiful instrument through the war torn streets on to the next venue. Not what I was expecting to see at all. That culture and music is high on Syrian peoples agendas is good, that means that they can see another point of view and can discuss rather than turn to threats and violence like other strains. So if one strain can be tolerant and cultured to a greater extent why can't the others be tamed and how?

22 June 2014 at 22:49  
Blogger Martin Marprelate said...

Talking about the death penalty for Moslem jehadis or blaming the MCB is missing the point.

The young men have been brought up in Britain never knowing the Gospel. There are several fine churches in Cardiff who are doubtless doing their best to reach out to immigrant families, but all a young Moslem is going to see or hear is the pontifications of the AB of C or some Bishop or other, because that's what gets on the newspapers or the telly, or they hear about paedophile priests.

Also, I have seen the R.E. books used to teach Christianity in schools and they are all about fonts and chalices and statues and pictures of people in fancy dress and nothing about the Gospel

So the average Moslem believes that Christians support homosexuality and fiddle with young boys, that they don't believe their own holy book and that Mary is the third person of the Trinity. Needless to say, they are repelled and disgusted by it all.

That is what we need to address, and what are you Anglicans going to do about it?

22 June 2014 at 22:54  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Martin M I think you make a vey good point.

23 June 2014 at 00:09  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Martin M, according to you, we should counter Islam by promoting a spiritual revival through reforming the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church.

Good idea .... and Jack agrees this is the preferable long-term solution. Convert and assimilate Muslims by demonstrating the power of Christianity.


23 June 2014 at 02:28  
Blogger Ivan said...

Explorer, the 80 million figure, does not pass the smell test. A simple interpolation form the figures given in correlated with Muslim rule, provides no basis for the claim. Will Durant's figure is a feature in Hindu supremacist sites. The Muslim rulers were not slackers, it is to be expected though that since the a large fraction of the invaders were Mongol converts, the bloodshed as happened, would have occurred regardless of whether they were Muslims or not. They did the same in China, and in their conquest of Baghdad.

“The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and daughters.”

― Genghis Khan

23 June 2014 at 04:22  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

How can the Muslim counsel dissassociate themselves from the words cited above since they represent mainstream Islam?

Read the Quran. That is the source of the 'radicalisation'.

These young men are quite simply following the teaching and example of Muhammed.

23 June 2014 at 07:15  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Ivan @ 04:22

Valid point.

I said "if true" because the numbers seemed high to me (given the size of European populations at that period of history).

I quite take the point of Mongol/Muslim confusion, ut is the figure of 80 million accurate?

23 June 2014 at 07:39  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

These young men are quite simply following the teaching and example of Muhammed.

RSA In a nutshell.

23 June 2014 at 08:01  
Blogger Martin Marprelate said...

Happy Jack wrote:-

Martin M, according to you, we should counter Islam by promoting a spiritual revival through reforming the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church.

Good idea .... and Jack agrees this is the preferable long-term solution. Convert and assimilate Muslims by demonstrating the power of Christianity.

There definitely needs to be a second Reformation. However, I very much doubt that the Churches of Rome or England can be reformed. Those who love Christ need to get out of them. The C of E would crumble quite quickly if the evangelicals left and something more robust, evangelical and evangelistic must take its place.


We need to be praying- for ourselves and for British Moslems. 'For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty under God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God' (2 Cor. 10:3-5). Ramadan starts on June 28th. What a great time to be praying that Moslems in Britain would hear the truth and be saved!

There are other things we can do. Does your church try to take R.E. lessons in your local primary school? The door is open in many of them. Why not become a Gideon and go into the secondary schools and offer New Testaments to the children? After all, it is the Injul.

23 June 2014 at 08:18  
Blogger Ivan said...

Explorer, I have the same doubts as you, but have no information to explicate it further. Speculatively, the Muslim rulers would have preferred to leave the Hindus as dhimmis and tax farm inmates. Hindus though could expect worse treatment than the "Peoples of the Book" as they were considered straight out idol-worshippers. Nonetheless the majority of Muslims in India are in fact lower caste Hindu converts. Which is why there are clear racial differences between the upper-class Muslims who generally have some foreign blood, and the more native looking lower folks. Like we see in Bollywood. As is to be expected, its a complicated story.

23 June 2014 at 08:44  
Blogger Len said...

The possibility that something positive might come from facing the assault by Muslim fundamentalists upon the West is encouraging.
I think Martin Marprelate (23 June 2014 08:18) is onto something very important and could be the answer to end the divisions in Christianity and to turn a dying religion into a vibrant spiritual force to counter the spiritual forces trying to eradicate Christianity.
IF all followers of Christ could unite behind Him then we would see the Power of the Holy Spirit working through them as they reached out with the Gospel.This was God`s original intention.

23 June 2014 at 08:57  
Blogger Ivan said...

Ramadan starts on June 28th.

Ramading-ding, when the Muslims take daylight saving to a whole new level. Sleep all day, and gorge all night. Turn up for work bleary-eyed and spend the whole evening looking for sweetmeats at the market. What's there not to like?

Sorry Martin, could not resist.

23 June 2014 at 08:59  
Blogger Martin Marprelate said...

If readers are casting about for examples of Moslem atrocities, why not google Tamburlaine?

I seem to recall reading that he left a pyramid of 40,000 heads outside Damascus in about 1401, and did something similar at Baghdad.

These ISIS people are just amateurs......

23 June 2014 at 09:04  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

So reaching out with the Gospel to Mohammedans will cure them of their murderous habits?

This has got as much chance of success as preaching the Sermon on the Mount to the followers of Genghis Khan, Stalin or Hitler.

23 June 2014 at 10:11  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Early this morning Israel attacked Syrian army positions just across the border at Quneitra, where government troops, including a Hezbollah unit, have been holding out against a rebel attack. Debka File has the details, including this one:
Israel almost certainly checked with the US command center near Amman and the Jordanian army before staging the multiple attack. The “almost” is an interesting touch.

23 June 2014 at 10:21  
Blogger Len said...

There is a move of God reaching out to Muslims(and others) who are having dreams and visions regarding Jesus Christ and coming to a realization of the truth regarding Him.
Jesus Christ is able to reveal His true identity to people as they sleep when their spirit is more receptive to the truth.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the power and the Wisdom of God and that is what we need to be promoting.
There is a spiritual battle going on for the minds and souls of men .

23 June 2014 at 10:22  
Blogger Len said...

OK so ISIS need to be stopped. But once ISIS is defeated then there will be another fundamentalist group springing up.
Removing Osama bin Laden did not stop terrorism neither will removing the head of ISIS, Islamic terrorism will merely' grow another head'.
This is not a battle that will be won with physical means(we should have already learned that lesson from History by now?)
By all out effort the West(in they work together) can restrain Islamic fundamentalists but we will never defeat them with physical means.

23 June 2014 at 10:30  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

Regarding the figure of 80 million kuffars slaughtered on Islam's eastern front, the total number of infidels killed worldwide on eastern, western and African fronts is estimated at 270 million:

Admittedly this is over a timespan of 1400 years, but still not bad for a pre-industrial society lacking (until recently) such modern amenities as poison gas, nuclear weapons, machine guns etc.

Hitler, Stalin, Kaiser Bill, Mao Tse Tung and Pol Pot together probably didn't reach a fraction of this.

23 June 2014 at 10:32  
Blogger Len said...

As soon as we get into stats the Muslims will point to the crusades.

So comparing who committed the worst atrocities is merely pointing to the problem ?. A futile exercise.
What we need to do is (once again) point to the solution... which is Jesus Christ.. In fact God has given us the only solution to the problem.. Jesus Christ.God has no' back up plan' its Jesus Christ or descend into total Chaos.

23 June 2014 at 10:41  
Blogger Martin said...


The gospel is not about persuading people to become Christians, that will never happen. God works with & through the preaching of the gospel, something that most churches in the UK do not do, creating a new heart in people. That is the new birth Jesus told Nicodemus of. They must be born again.


23 June 2014 at 10:58  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

Historically, secularism has a better track record against Mohammedanism than Christianity.

Only one country, Spain, has ever converted from Mohammedanism to Christianity, whereas secularism has worked (for a time at least) in the Soviet republics and Ataturk's Turkey.

Mohammedanism is primarily a political, military and organised crime problem, and needs to be dealt with by the appropriate means. We need to stop treating it as a religion, with all the protections that doing so provides, and start treating it a a cross between the Nazi Party and the Mafia.

23 June 2014 at 11:04  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...


"Mohammedanism is primarily a political, military and organised crime problem, and needs to be dealt with by the appropriate means."

Until this country and others and their MSM stop pretending that Islam is one of the Abrahamic faiths and that Mohammed was a man of peace rather than an arab 'Joseph Smith' opportunist and confront them with historical facts, The Bible will ALWAYS be seen as some corrupted testament that Allah got rewritten by a chancer to confirm muslims as his new chosen.

They do not hear the gospel as they are taught it is falsified and we endorse their nonsense by giving it a credence it does not warrant.


23 June 2014 at 11:12  
Blogger bluedog said...

seanrobsville @ 10.11 says, 'So reaching out with the Gospel to Mohammedans will cure them of their murderous habits?'

This communicant thinks that is something to be tried. As Martin Marprelate asked @ 22.54, 'What are you Anglicans going to do?' Surely the CofE has nowhere to hide, it is the state church and there is no excuse for ducking the issue if the government so commands. Who knows, Bishop Pete may excel in bringing the Gospel to the Muslims.

It would only work at the primary school level but should be done so that all schools, Muslim or otherwise, introduce Christianity as part of the suite of British values about which we hear so much. Teaching Christian belief to secondary school Muslim youth could earn you a posthumous VC. But Michael Gove is undoubtedly on the right track and one wonders if he is in communion with Justin Welby on the matter.

O wait. Introducing Christianity to 'Muslim' children is probably a breach of their human rights and would see the UK hauled before the European Court of Human Rights by some idiot QC in a case funded by our friends the House of Saud.

23 June 2014 at 11:20  
Blogger bluedog said...

Ernst @ 11.11 and earlier, thinking further about co-ordinated action against Islam the 'religion', is it not a job for the UN, under the capable leadership on Ban Ki-moon?

After all, each one of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council faces serious problems with Islam in one form or another.

23 June 2014 at 11:29  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Len @ 10.22

I have heard through Open Doors how Muslims are receiving visions of Christ and the gospel message in dreams. The danger is that unless they keep this discreet, they are considered mad. However conversions occur. Some are forced to start new lives, new jobs, apart from their families which is the sad part, sometimes in new areas. But it is happening more than we realise as converts have to, for practical security reasons, keep a low profile.

I agree with you that getting into a statistics game of who is the worst, becomes pointless. Although giving an overview to people, broad patterns, is I believe helpful so as to offer context to people. But that reflects the way I always approach everything, trying to place everything as far as possible in its overall context, but the more detailed sort of mind, may not find that helpful.

I believe in a strong physical defence, whilst recognising, as you always emphasise, that essentially this is spiritual struggle. It is in hearts and minds that these matters must decided. A major problem is of course the media, and their distinct bias. It ignores, attack even, "gospel' messages, pointing only to the controversies, the problems that divide Christians.

23 June 2014 at 12:23  
Blogger Jay Bee said...


Even teaching Muslim primary school children about Christianity is problematical. I know of an incident in my locality where the parents went ballistic over assemblies/teaching and demanded assurances that it would never happen again. The response was, shall we say, culturally sensitive.

23 June 2014 at 12:27  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Len @ 10:41

Muslims will, of course, cite the Crusades: as will Western aplogists for Islam. The ones with legitimate grounds for complaint seem to me to be the Byzantines and the Jews.

I do think, though, that there is a case for confronting the prevailing Western view that the Crusades were an unprovoked assault by Western barbarians on peace-loving Muslims.

I once experienced a tirade by an Istanbul tour guide. From his version, you would have got the impession that the Byzantines had attacked the ancient Turkish city of Constantinople; rather than the other way round.

I did challenge his version of events, but desisted when I saw the gleam in his eye: the film 'Midnight Express' was still fresh in my mind at the time.

23 June 2014 at 12:47  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

The Explorer

Israeli tour guides are no admirers of the Crusades, either. What you get, though, is a disapproving frown, rather than a menacing gleam.

23 June 2014 at 13:08  
Blogger Ivan said...

Explorer, the Byzantines were full of nonsense themselves. They were the ones who asked Pope Urban to come to their aid. When the First Crusaders turned up, Alexius Comnenus got cold feet at the speed of the Frankish advance. From then on his main goal was to see the last of the Franks. The Fourth Crusade, that was widely condemned in Church circles for sacking Constantinople was diverted from Egypt at the behest of some pretenders to the Byzantine throne. The Crusaders had not been paid in a year and their bills were piling up, and were merely lending their arms. Though of course being the redoubtable football hooligans of that era, they got carried away with rape and pillage. Hardly any mention of these examples of Byzantine perfidy, come up in their accounts when they accuse the Whore of Rome of stabbing them in the back.

Midnight Express? Well you are a brave one to try the Turk.

23 June 2014 at 13:22  
Blogger Len said...

Listen to this fantastic response by Brigitte Gabriel regarding 'peaceful Muslims'.

23 June 2014 at 13:25  
Blogger Ars Hendrik said...

Having over the years met a few Calabrian gentlemen (who may or may not have had dealings with a certain organisation that wise people know better than to name), I suspect that they would be less than amused at the idea of your comparing them to the more extravagant members of the 'Religion of Peace'. Despite the Pope's abjuration they consider themselves to be entirely and faithfully Catholic.

Nearer to God are thee…

More seriously, one can only sympathise with Ahmed Muthana – who has lost his sons to this creeping madness. I hope his sons are thoroughly disillusioned by what they encounter in Iraq and, after returning to the UK (and accepting whatever punishment the government thinks appropriate), are reconciled to their father. After all, the Parable of the Prodigal Son is not just for Christians.

23 June 2014 at 14:23  
Blogger The Explorer said...


You are, of course, right about the Byzantines. Re the Fourth crusade, one of the Venetian doges, I believe, had been blinded by the Byzantines (a favourite form of Byzantine negotiation) and felt a certain grievance against them.

It was Runciman (a devotee of the Byzantines) who began the modern Western view of the Crusaders as barbarians.

I've strayed from HG's topic, but I hope it's an interesting aside.

23 June 2014 at 14:30  
Blogger IanCad said...

Excuse me for diverting the thread YG, but some good new for a change.

According to BBC Radio 4, Meriam Ibrahim has been released from prison.

May God comfort all who are suffering in His cause.

23 June 2014 at 15:46  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...


I hope you're right, Ian, but it seems there has not been full confirmation yet. The BBC website (link below) quotes Meriam's lawyer as saying, "She has been released, she is on her way home." But CNN is still saying no more than a court has overturned her sentence and ordered her release, which is not quite the same thing.

23 June 2014 at 16:16  
Blogger Martin Marprelate said...

Praise God!
Now let's start agitating Pakistan on behalf of Aasia Bibi who has been in jail there for about 5 years on the usual trumped-up charges of blasphemy.

23 June 2014 at 16:23  
Blogger Jay Bee said...

Please don't forget Pastor Saeed Abedini imprisoned in Iran.

23 June 2014 at 16:38  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Thank you, Jay Bee. Would it be a mere conjecture to deduce that the "crime" Abedini is really being punished for is converting from Islam to Christianity? This snippet from your link:

After what was described as a "sham" trial, the Islamic Revolutionary Court in Tehran deemed Abedini guilty of "threatening the national security" of Iran for helping underground Christian churches in his home country in 2000, the same year he converted from Islam to Christianity.

23 June 2014 at 17:03  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

One government, at least, has had the good sense to face up to the violence threatened by its Muslim minority:

23 June 2014 at 17:23  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

23 June 2014 at 18:24  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Just seen the reportage on this video on BBC News - concentrating of on identifying the three killers 'young British men'. I want to scream in frustration.

Who gives a shit who their fathers are, who care where the hell they live - they are not important but that's all we are going to hear about - and what the hell does does 'radicalisation' mean other than to portray them as duped innocents!

FFS Britain WAKE UP! the enemy is here. The sleepers are here. The knowledge of destruction is here. Do we have to have another 7/7 9/11 Bali/Kenya Mall/Bombay massacre before we treat this as do the Muslims?

It's bloody global war on all non Muslims

23 June 2014 at 18:26  
Blogger IanCad said...

Most interesting, in the BBC report, is the anonymous young "Acquaintance" who chooses not to be named for fear of RETRIBUTION!!

What; in our fair land, must our subjects live in fear?

Now, I'm not going to get as all bent out of shape as Dreadnaught, but our laws must be enforced.

Intimidation is a crime.

Rather than chasing up old men who are, no doubt, paying in their dotage for the crimes of their youth; our police should be on the streets keeping their eyes and ears open.

No need to panic though.
"Britain Can Take It!"

We brag about those thousands who, in the past, have died for our liberties.

Good Lord!! Few have snuffed it in the UK at the hands of radical Islam, let's not overreact.

Our laws are quite sufficient as they are.

23 June 2014 at 20:23  
Blogger Jay Bee said...

Uncle Brian@17:03

Its more involved than some people realise. He has dual Iranian/ American citizenship and became prominent in the Iranian House Church movement. They really have got it in for him. Case history can be read here:

23 June 2014 at 20:23  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ bluedog (11:20)—Teaching Christian belief to secondary school Muslim youth could earn you a posthumous VC

You’re not far off the mark: ‘Four men launched a horrific attack on a teacher in which they slashed his face and left him with a fractured skull because they did not approve of him teaching religion to Muslim girls.’—Daily Mail

It would be a brave Christian who took the Gospel to one of Britain’s Muslim ghettos.

23 June 2014 at 20:25  
Blogger Roy said...

It is not only the Muslim Council of Britain that is feeble. So is the present British government, and its predecessor was just as bad.

There was an article today in a Welsh newspaper, the Western Mail, about a new biography of the former Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams. The article mentioned the Archbishop's had raised the subject of the persecution of Christians in the Middle East with a member of Gordon Brown's cabinet and describes the response he got.

He writes: “Rowan raised the matter of Christians under threat in the Middle East with a member of Gordon Brown’s cabinet, and received a jaw-dropping response. ‘If missionaries will march into Muslim countries trying to convert them, then it’s not surprising that they have a hard time.’”

Of course, Christian communities have existed in the Middle East since New Testament times, but apparently the standard of education of cabinet ministers nowadays is so appalling that they cannot be expected to know that.

Even if all the Christians in the Middle East had been the converts of recent missionaries the cabinet minister's response would still have spoken volumes about Labour's commitment to freedom of religion - but I fear Cameron's Conservatives and the Lib Dems (if they still matter) are just as bad.

I wish the biographer, or Rowan Williams, had identified the cabinet minister concerned.

Rowan Williams' anguish as an archbishop leading a communion riven with division is detailed by biographer

23 June 2014 at 20:26  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Ian C @ 20:23

On 'The Big Questions' a couple of weeks ago, a Christian lawyer spoke of Britsh Muslim women threatened with death (or actually dying) for trying to leave Islam.

That's another set of laws operating under the radar of our laws.

23 June 2014 at 20:32  
Blogger Sister Julian said...

Would that the Arch Druid had made this public when he was in office and done his job as a ++ should do! Where is the courage these days? HE was anguished? How do the rest of us feel about wishy washy leadership? How is the communion meant to thrive and not be riven with division without strong leadership?

23 June 2014 at 20:39  
Blogger IanCad said...

The Explorer,

"That's another set of laws operating under the radar of our laws."

Therefore clearly illegal.
What are we paying our police for??

The shipping off of UK subjects for forced marriage. FMG.
It goes on and on.
What about our goofy judges??
How do such twerps get appointed?
It is better to be merciful than harsh but some sentences are absolutely pathetic.
Time to crack the whip.

23 June 2014 at 20:45  
Blogger Jay Bee said...


What are we paying our police for??

Attending equality, diversity and community relations courses.

23 June 2014 at 21:31  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

23 June 2014 at 22:03  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

No need to panic though.
"Britain Can Take It!"

Good Lord!! Few have snuffed it in the UK at the hands of radical Islam, let's not overreact.

Cad by name CAD by nature - you maggot!

23 June 2014 at 22:09  
Blogger IanCad said...


I've been married a long time and, thus, have been called most things.
I sincerely hope my wife doesn't see your comment as she hasn't yet used your particular term of endearment.
She would be on it in a flash.

23 June 2014 at 22:25  
Blogger bluedog said...

IanCad @ 20.23 says, 'Our laws are quite sufficient as they are.'

Indeed, but when will these laws be applied to the criminality of Islam? How many jails would need to be built to accommodate those who have sponsored under-age forced marriages?

23 June 2014 at 22:27  
Blogger Mike Stallard said...

If I were a young Muslim man of 19, I would be very attracted by going to Syria/Iraq and throwing a few stones, and even being given a brand new pop gun to shoot at people. I would also enjoy the crucifixions and being offered young women, if I am honest. I think that every single one of us has that streak in us.

Naughty but at last I would be a MAN!

The way that a lot of Muslims have been subjected to a sort of apartheid (remember the colour problem too) in schools makes them (and me) very angry. That is another thing.

The challenge for us Christians is to provide an alternative which is just as attractive and that is going to be very difficult.

24 June 2014 at 07:36  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Mike Stallard
If I were a young Muslim man of 19, I would be very attracted by going to Syria/Iraq and throwing a few stones, and even being given a brand new pop gun to shoot at people.

The same sense of achievement and passage in to man-hood could be reached serving your Queen and Country.

The trouble is unlike all other immigrant groups in the West it is only Muslims who see treachery and mass murder as a virtue.

Of course its the fault of the host nation - Muslims have turned this bleat into an art-form.

This country had its religious civil war in the 17th Century - the government should be making it known from an early age, that we have no intentions of allowing such division and delusion to be a re-run of those times.

24 June 2014 at 08:07  
Blogger IanCad said...


We have to start somewhere. If this generation has to pay for the follies of the prior, then, so be it.

Mike Stallard

You raise an uncomfortable point.
Look at the thousand of fresh-faced, ever so brilliant, self-deluded, young British lads who went to Spain during the civil war.
Fought with the bloody Communists, came back with their vile doctrine; Became schoolteachers and spread it throughout the land.

24 June 2014 at 08:52  
Blogger Shmu'el said...

David Hussell,

There are 3 types of war in Judaism :

1)Milḥemet Mitzvah (war by G-d's command)
2)Milkhemet reshut (war for economic, territorial or political advantage).

These are both historical and applied to Biblical times, there are no prophets anymore, no King and no Sanhedrin, so these are not applicable.

The third category of warfare is still applicable -

3)Milchemet Mitzvah- which are defensive wars to protect the Jewish homeland. This is still applicable today and is the religious reason why the wars to defend the modern state of Israel are applicable via Halachah (Jewish law).

24 June 2014 at 18:01  

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