Wednesday, July 02, 2014

Canon Andrew White deserves a knighthood


He doesn't care about temporal honours, of course. You only have to hear the 'Vicar of Baghdad' preach, or take a few minutes to watch the above short film (parts 2 and 3 to follow), to appreciate that the race he runs is for the crown of Christ's glory, and the reward he awaits is in heaven. He doesn't want a knighthood or a CBE: he wants our prayers, our awareness of the plight of his flock, and our generous donations to aid his ministry in this time of appalling suffering and tribulation.

He has lost a thousand of his parishioners over the past year alone - murdered by Muslim militants; many of them summarily shot or beheaded. He has recently been speaking to numerous fellowships in the UK to raise awareness of the situation in Iraq, and he received death threats last week from ISIS/ISIL (or IS [Islamic State], as they now wish to be called). Notwithstanding the danger, he has returned to St George's in Baghdad to continue his work. He wrote:
We go back to Iraq on Tuesday. There are so many needs to provide and we thank our Lord for how he has provided for us to meet these needs through you. We have so many Christians who have literally been ousted from their homes with nothing, they are living on the streets.Please pray that we may be able to show them the love of Jesus and provide their needs.
The Islamists are trying to eradicate the symbol of the cross from their new Caliphate.

There was no Mass in Mosul last Sunday for the first time in 1600 years. Those Christians who risk worship must do so in silence, praying under new Sharia regulations that have silenced every church bell in the city.

There are reports of torture chambers, public beheadings and crucifixions. "Since the fall of Mosul, a litany of evils has replaced the liturgies of the Christians there: a young boy ripped from the arms of his parents as they ran from the ISIS advance and shot before their eyes, girls killed for not wearing the hijab.."

Canon White suffers from MS. As a result of that debilitating affliction, he was told by the Church of England that they were unable to recommend him for a parish in London because it would be "too stressful".

So they sent him to Baghdad.

Where he has ministered now for 15 years.

He is now helping refugees fleeing from the cities of Northern Iraqi. Hospitality and aid are coming from the Kurds on the plains of Nineveh.

Canon White needs our help to continue his work among the homeless, traumatised and dispossessed Christians of Iraq.

His Grace is having meetings with politicians to discuss how HM Government can assist in Nineveh. He will recommend and protected enclave - arms with weapons, if necessary.

Please give what you can HERE, and offer your prayers up to God that the gospel will continue to be preached across those lands where these Islamist thugs are wreaking havoc. They have a five-year plan:



This is the new Islamic State - the Caliphate.

Allah has yet to decide who will play the Caliph.

158 Comments:

Blogger seanrobsville said...

We kuffars are always being told to respect Islam. But why should we respect a cult that is an obvious scam set up by a child-molesting confidence trickster and gangster, and whose primary objective is our extermination or subjugation?

To treat Islam with anything other than the utter contempt and derision it has so copiously earned is simply suicidal.

If kuffars made it clear that we regard Islam as a bogus cult, then Muslims themselves may begin to see through the confidence trick. I don't expect a sudden 'Emperor's New Clothes' awakening throughout the Ummah, but a gradual attrition may eventually do the job, as it has with the left's campaign against Christianity in Britain.

However, such a campaign cannot be successful while being a Muslim allows them any advantanges in the West, such as immunity from prosecution for child prostitution, the ability to sue kuffars for Islamophobia at the slightest pretext, and generally getting away with bullying and intimidating the rest of the population while claiming victimhood.

There is also the obstacle of cultural inertia. It must be difficult to come to terms with the fact that not only you, but also all your ancestors have been gulled by a scam which has left your societies backward, illiterate and anarchic. But as the consequences of Islam become ever more blatantly obvious, it will be increasingly difficult to stay in denial.

Like the neighborhood thug, Islam craves 'respect'. Don't give it any.

2 July 2014 at 09:23  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

If there was ever an example of "God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong", Canon White is the embodiment of it.

Truly humbled.

Prayer & donations made - though they feel so inadequate.

Islam is a satanic counterfeit of the authentic faith of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob. All though it is easy & natural to despise those who are deceived by it, I know it is better to follow Canon White's example and pray & love those who are under its curse.

2 July 2014 at 09:35  
Blogger ianhutch said...

Good tribute to Andrew White who is an amazing man of God. Pray for & support him in any way you can.

2 July 2014 at 09:35  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Sent to Baghdad because London would be too stressful. Quite so.

Mind you, if Islamic aspirations are truly global then London as another Baghdad is only a matter of time.

2 July 2014 at 10:06  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Good post Cranmer even atheists will admire the courage of this man; sent for a 'less stressful' life in Iraq. No doubt some will say it was God's will that directed his superiors to send him where they would not have sent themselves - how very bold of them.

How very like the Mullahs and Imams who encourage the thicko dupes of Islam to go and blow up themselves and others, while they make other plans for the cushy lifestyles enjoyed by them and their spawn.

Good men make for good deeds.

2 July 2014 at 10:12  
Blogger Len said...

Canon Andrew White is a true man of God working under intolerable conditions.
To have ones flock slaughtered by these murderous Islamic barbarians must be absolutely heartbreaking to witness.
There can be no doubt now about the true intentions of this Islamic death cult towards all who do not submit to it.
Once Islam is in a position of power the nightmare begins.

2 July 2014 at 10:53  
Blogger Ivan said...


I would like to know if it were better to contribute through Paypal or the other portals. There seems to be some multiplier from the government that comes into play with the others.

2 July 2014 at 11:00  
Blogger B flat said...

Your compassion for the Christians persecuted in Iraq and elsewhere is palpable and praiseworthy. Canon Andrew White's dedication to serving Christ and his fellow man is exemplary, and I pray the Lord helps him and sustains him until he gains his eternal rich reward.

But a knighthood in today's Britain, with such a devalued honours system as we have? Knighthoods are given for such paltry and ephemeral successes as sports competitions and mass entertainment, as well as political timeserving. How does such an award fit this person and his situation?
Everything else in this article, is first rate, and thank you for writing about this, as you did earlier of Egypt and then Syria. God bless you and your work.

2 July 2014 at 11:09  
Blogger Jay Bee said...

It is amazing that Canon White toils for peace and reconciliation between Sunni & Shia even when their extremists would kill him without compunction. This is an astonishing witness of Christian love in action. May the Lord uphold and protect this peacemaker.

The supreme leader of the Islamic State appears to be Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi although some conspiracy theorists think he is merely a shill for Caliph Barak Hussein Obama the magnificent and most merciful. Regardless of who Allah's chosen one actually is, it is rather more concerning that the ISIS 5 Year Acquisition Plan overlays part of Europe, the whole of India and takes a chip out of China. If they were to become strong enough to try and pull this off there would inevitably be a world war. Will the Arab Spring finally end in a Nuclear Winter?

2 July 2014 at 11:26  
Blogger bluedog said...

Thank you for bringing us up to date on the ministry of Canon White, Your Grace. One can only pray for his survival and for the continuation of his work in such a challenging environment. More saint than knight.

Your Grace's idea of a safe refuge for the remaining Christians in Kurdish lands sounds promising. Presumably the price will be recognition of an independent Kurdistan, but that would be worth paying.

The proposed acquisitions depicted in the map of the future caliphate are missing the Vatican. Isn't this an important objective? And what about the rest of Europe? Should we conclude that the Muslim residents will shortly emigrate to the caliphate, insh'allah?

Communicant Ivan is presumably impressed by the important role set aside for India.

2 July 2014 at 11:38  
Blogger bluedog said...

Jaybee @ 11.26 asks, 'Will the Arab Spring finally end in a Nuclear Winter?'

Wouldn't it be terrible if some apostate vaporised the Kaba'a during the Haj?

2 July 2014 at 11:41  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

The ‘Islamist thugs’ are doing no more than Allah expects—proselytizing by violence. Bearing that in mind, it is mystifying that Christian leaders refer to Islam as one of the Abrahamic faiths, conferring on it a respectability it does not begin to merit; the Archbishop of Canterbury was at it in the House of Lords last year. Perhaps the deluded cleric is a graduate of the Jens Orback school of wishful thinking: ‘We must be open and tolerant towards Islam and the Muslims because when we become a minority, they will be so towards us.’

2 July 2014 at 11:53  
Blogger Ivan said...

bluedog, if it were not for the fact that they are cruel, vicious murderers one can only laugh at their presumption. They do have have fetching playmates though.

http://www.moonofalabama.org/images4/Isisplaymate.jpg

2 July 2014 at 12:20  
Blogger Jay Bee said...

bluedog@11:41

Wouldn't it be terrible if some apostate vaporised the Kaba'a during the Haj?

Never mind the apostates, it seems the zealous are already queuing up to oblige:

ISIS stated that they will ruin the Kaaba after capturing Saudi Arabia.

ISIS member Abu Turab Al Mugaddasi said that they would destroy the Kaaba in Mecca: “If Allah wills, we will kill those who worship stones in Mecca and destroy the Kaaba. People go to Mecca to touch the stones, not for Allah.”


2 July 2014 at 12:30  
Blogger Nick said...

These are truly dreadful times in the Middle East. A murderous and abominable religion is spreading violence and mayhem, while Western governments, paralysed by their moral torpor, sit on their hands and do nothing. Can't help but think if these were gays being beheaded instead of Christians, DC would have acted by now

Glad to hear you are taking the matter up with the politicians YG. They need to wake up to the danger that is Islam. One wonders whether any of them are capable of doing that.

2 July 2014 at 12:46  
Blogger Ivan said...

If Allah wills, we will kill those who worship stones in Mecca and destroy the Kaaba...

These guys are stoned on something. But its good news that they want to rock the Kaaba, I'd be able to get my Muslim friend away from his head banging for Ramzan, to consider a condemnation.

2 July 2014 at 12:48  
Blogger thumrat said...

Simon Hughes must be positively moist at the goings on....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHZYXOm898Q

2 July 2014 at 12:55  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...

Cranmer

Not sure where else to put this (?) but just wondered how you explain the fact that there are now new species of bacteria which are immune to our antibiotics - see today's BBC headlines - when you don't accept evolution?

Is it simply your position that God has zapped down some new species for us? Got bored with the old ones, presumably.

If not, how do you explain these new species of bacteria?

2 July 2014 at 13:03  
Blogger bluedog said...

Thank you, Jaybee @ 12.30.

Perhaps one should sign up for Caliphate email bulletins to keep abreast of progress. Encouraging to learn that some Muslims can now see why walking round the Kaba'a is an act of idol worship.

Presumably once the Caliphate has seized its immediate objectives it will consolidate by declaring the OIC redundant. The OIC's embarrassingly contrived emblem actually embodies the Kaba'a: http://www.oic-oci.org/oicv2/home/?lan=en

2 July 2014 at 13:03  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

@Nick

"Glad to hear you are taking the matter up with the politicians YG. They need to wake up to the danger that is Islam."

No politician will give any inkling of waking up to Islam, for to do so implies embarking on a course of action which goes way beyond being politically incorrect, and enters the realms of the unthinkable.

2 July 2014 at 13:09  
Blogger The Explorer said...

The map provided by HG presumably reflects the short-term plan.

Be interesting to see what the long-term map looks like.

That's to say, I think I can guess, But it would be interesting to see what the new names would look like, and how it would all be divvied up.

2 July 2014 at 13:09  
Blogger Ivan said...


Deane, the bacteria did not evolve into ISIS cannibals. That would be true evolution. The example you cite, is like you getting a suntan when you hitchhike in a desert. can you then say that you have evolved. Some rearrangement, thats all.

2 July 2014 at 13:11  
Blogger Ivan said...


Explorer, the dumb asses who think up these names are probably from Bradford. Just tune to the argot there to get their opinions on the christening.

2 July 2014 at 13:16  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Ivan @ 13:16

Christening?

2 July 2014 at 13:21  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...

Ivan

It's micro evolution, caused by mutations in existing bacteria (on which antibiotics used to work). We now have these new, resistant, bacteria multiplying at the expense of the old bacteria so that our antibiotics no longer work.

Ergo, we have a strain of bacteria with a completely different genetic make up. Ie.. a new species of bacteria.

2 July 2014 at 13:24  
Blogger Ivan said...

Explorer, I couldn't think of an appropriate word or phrase. I agree that its a lousy choice.

2 July 2014 at 13:26  
Blogger Ivan said...


Deane, they remain bacteria, they don't sprout tentacles. They reproduce in the same way, nothing but cosmetic changes as far the bacterium is concerned. If this is all there is to evolution hardly anyone would bother. But the claim of evolution is that we can get cows and unicorns from this.

2 July 2014 at 13:31  
Blogger Ivan said...

Anyway I am somewhat sorry to sidetrack a very serious subject and am off for the day.

2 July 2014 at 13:33  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

2 July 2014 at 13:35  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...

Ivan, so you're saying at least that you accept that this is a new species of bacteria caused by mutations?

"Nothing changes as far as the bacteria is concerned" - Yeh. Apart from the fact it gets to live and reproduce...

2 July 2014 at 13:36  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...

Ivan @ 13:33

haha. of course you are.

2 July 2014 at 13:42  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Sidney Deane

Why are you arguing about evolution on this thread? Is the subject at hand so utterly insignificant that you find no importance in the threat to his life? Did you even read the post or did you just rush to the nearest available location on the weblog and start typing?

carl

2 July 2014 at 13:47  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

Once Britanistan has become part of the Caliphate, evolution will be banned, as it already is at the
South Kensington Madrassa (formerly known as Imperial College)

Then bacteria will no longer be able to develop any further resistance to the products of Islamic medical science, such as camel urine.

2 July 2014 at 14:01  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Antibiotic-resistant bacteria.

I can think of a good destination for them.

2 July 2014 at 14:14  
Blogger Ars Hendrik said...

Sidney, f'off back to La La Land and stop wasting everyone's time with your schoolboy's misunderstanding of science – or do you really think you are the first idiot on this blog to have been taken from behind (intellectually speaking) by Dawkins and all of the other theo-pseuds.

2 July 2014 at 14:35  
Blogger Ars Hendrik said...

The self-proclaimed leader of the new 'Islamic State' and ISIS pin-up boy Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi (I'll have mine with rice please) has issued a call for all good Muslims to go to the new state and sign up for a jihad against Europe. Apparently he wants to go to Rome to begin his world tour. (Ryan Air is offering a jihad special on all European destinations – hand weapons only.)

Let us pray to the merciful Allah that all Muslims heed his call to arms – especially those currently living in the UK who may inclined to agree with his point of view.

Finally, something to do with all of those nuclear weapons.

2 July 2014 at 14:44  
Blogger Ars Hendrik said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

2 July 2014 at 14:44  
Blogger IanCad said...

God Bless Canon White.
What an example he is.

I'm sure we must all wonder how we would behave in such dreadful circumstances.

He is going back. He knows exactly what he is facing. Very encouraging. I would like to think that most here would act similarly.

Prayers for you too YG in your upcoming discussions. Wisdom, wisdom. Don't be shy about the weapons, and don't sweat over the map, which is nothing if not evidence of total insanity.
If the Christians won't fight, the Hindus and Bhuddists sure will.

2 July 2014 at 14:44  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

The caliphate is a fantasy. It would have to be created by force and there is no such force available. This is going to lead to tribalism and inter-Islamic warfare. The order imposed by the European powers on the Middle East after WWI is beginning to break down. The West no longer has the ability or the will to maintain order and so the Islamic world is refashioning itself. But it won't result in a powerful Islamic state. It will become Afghanistan writ large.

There is little that can be done. There is a future of persecution and death. And still we complain about our little problems. The Church conquered Rome. The Church conquers China. The Church can conquer Islam. The West may be old and spent, but the West is not the Church. God is not sitting in His heaven wringing his hands as if to say "What shall I do now?" Instead he watches carefully to make sure his word is fulfilled.

In the meantime, we should ponder what others have been made to endure - we who have not yet resisted unto blood.

carl

2 July 2014 at 14:47  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

@ Carl Jacobs
" This is going to lead to tribalism and inter-Islamic warfare."

I'm sure any disputes as to who is the rightful Caliph will be resolved by peaceful democratic means, probably involving large numbers of postal votes.

2 July 2014 at 15:21  
Blogger Rasher Bacon said...

Sidney Deane (13:03)

That is a big deviation. Can I suggest you get a copy of Adam & Evolution by Michael Pitman, which covers what's meant by micro, macro, prokaryotic & eukaryotic evolution. The foreword is by Bernard Stonehouse.

Then get back to the topic, old chap.

2 July 2014 at 15:44  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Christianity being forced underground is nothing to mourn. One recalls it thrived when under the Roman pagan state. In fact, one would further suggest that Christianity grew and in the most unexpected quarters too, to wit, the aristocracy of Rome, often as a result of it being passed on from the servant(...alright, 'slaves' if you will, but a benign and secure captivity, none the less...).

These Islamic gangsters will no doubt go the way of the Storm Troopers in time. All it takes is another strong arm man like Saddam to come to the fore. Local tribal chiefs who scheme and kill and rise accordingly.

It's all racial, you see. And that is to our advantage. Shouldn't take too much cunning from those of us in the know to play these blighters off against each other. The 'united' Palestinian front these inepts have tried to achieve but never will is hope eternal in itself...

Never say die, what !

2 July 2014 at 16:15  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Deane, old man. Can one respectfully suggest you visit and spend a bit of time at the website Secular Café. There you'll be able to mix with teenage philosophers, other know it alls, misogynists, and some rather sad odd balls who have a grand old time laughing at people who believe in imaginary sky fairy friends. What a hoot that would be for you...

2 July 2014 at 16:24  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Inspector:

Sounds like you don't anticipate becoming Satrap General in Ordinary (or Keidi General, or whatever) any time soon.

2 July 2014 at 16:28  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

By the way, knighthoods. If anyone has not yet appreciated the utter debasement this erstwhile honour has undergone, the Inspector gives you Sir Tony Robinson.

Although one is not aware of the citation that went with it, the possibility that he received said gong for playing a half witted arse in comedy and for no other reason is, the Inspector fears, too damn close to the actual truth, whatever it be.

2 July 2014 at 16:37  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

How's that for bad luck Explorer. On the Inspector's screen, the word 'arse' in his last comment is aligned directly under a chap's avatar.

Let none of us suffer the sin of self pride. That includes YOU, Len, wherever you are...

2 July 2014 at 16:46  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...

I did say I didnt know how else to put my question to Cranmer when i posted it.

Ars(e)

"F off back to la la land". Brilliant. Says the guy who believes in talking snakes and miracles for no other reason than his mummy taught him to.

Nope la la land is certainly not somewhere I have ever been so wouldnt know the way old boy.

Ill suffice with thousands of peer-reviewed scientific papers, dna evidence, fossils, direct f*king observable evidence (like the example i gave)..

You stick to your old book, with its genocide, its slavery, its contradictions and its infant story telling and keep telling people they are the idiots. haha.

thanks god it was the bible that mummy first shoved in your face and not the koran or you'd be sitting there with those ISIS morons like the rest of you lot commenting on here.

It's so hilarious the double standards and hypocricy. Bashing Allah and questioning their beliefs when the only difference between you is that your parents happened to have been told by their parents (and so on) that a different religion was true.

2 July 2014 at 17:35  
Blogger William Lewis said...

Your Grace

It's humbling what a man can do who commits himself to God. Made a donation and glad to hear that you are working behind the scenes.

2 July 2014 at 17:54  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

What sport you are Deane ! You certainly know how to put over an overwhelming argument for atheism.

If you can a spare a few moments, do look up the construction of the eye on Wiki. You have cones and rods and lens and retinas, and this fellows favourite, an upside down image which needs the brain to turn it right way up.

Now lets see (pun intended). That incredible device arose as a result of dust coming to life in a hot lake or some such. How about a bolt of lightening thrown in for added amazement and dramatica. You know what the people want these days, excitement, and nothing too far fetched for the comprehensive school mind to tackle...

Anyway, we'll forget that the evolution actuality is comparable to a computer program because some entity that doesn't apparently exist would be needed for the programing. Bit of a bugger that, isn't it ?

Oh well. Back to the contents of the hoover bag then. The truth is in there, as they say, what !


2 July 2014 at 17:58  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Sidney D @ 17:35

Some sweeping generalisations going on there: in which I assume myself ("the rest of you lot commenting on here") to be included.

Actually, I didn't retain the faith of my childhood. I abandoned Christianity at the age of eighteen or so, and was an atheist for nearly thirty years until I re-examined the evidence for the Resurrection.

And if you seriously think that there is no real difference between Islam and Christianity (as your final paragraph seems to suggest) then I submit that you can't know much about either.

Fine to say that they are both untrue; that's another matter.

2 July 2014 at 18:07  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Sidney Deane

I did say I didnt know how else to put my question to Cranmer when i posted it.

OK, then. I guess it's alright since you didn't know what else to do.

How about you put it nowhere. How about you wait until a more appropriate thread opens up. How about you refrain from trying to score cheap meaningless apologetic points and respect the life of a man who might very well be dead within four weeks.

carl

2 July 2014 at 18:30  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Jack agrees with Carl about the future of the immediate Middle East. The West will feel compelled to become involved to restore order because of oil. He also wonders what Arabia and Persia will get up to in all this chaos which both manipulating are trying to use to their own advantage.

Christians need protection by the world community - if, indeed, there be one - when being so openly brutalised. It's horrific! Should the sword be used? By whom? Should they go underground? Should they leave the region? Jack cannot answer these questions.

We must give - financially and also through prayer. For those who dismiss prayer (yes, you Inspector) think on this:

"Prayer is not asking. Prayer is putting oneself in the hands of God, at His disposition, and listening to His voice in the depth of our hearts."
(Mother Teresa)

God Bless Canon White who is promoting God's Kingdom through word and deed.

"A life not lived for others is not a life."
(Mother Teresa)

Len, Happy Jack likes your new avatar and also your profile. Less aggressive!

2 July 2014 at 18:31  
Blogger The Explorer said...

HJ @ 18:31

The good thing about oil is that the Middle-East nations that have it need it as much as we do.

After all, if the oil stops flowing, what other sources of revenue do they have? They'd go back to sand.

2 July 2014 at 18:35  
Blogger Shadrach said...

I was going to say to Sidney Deane that is often not what a mother puts in front of the child that form their belief, it their own experience.
God gets hold of a person and shows them his reality on the inside and when one has an experience like that, there is no doubt.
But why should I say anything to him? Casting peals before swine is a waste of time. Unless; God gets of hold of him and he believes!

2 July 2014 at 19:04  
Blogger Ars Hendrik said...

Dean, you f'ing twat, my favourite book on evolution is 'Why Evolution is True' by Jerry Coyne, an excellent and convincing book on the subject. My favourite book on science and religion is 'God's Undertaker' by John Lennox, a superb study of this particuarly interesting subject. My favourite cheap weekend ride is your mother - you child.

2 July 2014 at 19:11  
Blogger Albert said...

Sidney Deane,

Sorry, where on this post (or anywhere else) has Cranmer denied evolution?

2 July 2014 at 19:22  
Blogger Albert said...

Allah has yet to decide who will play the Caliph.

It seems he's been chosen already. It's clear that the Islamic world is in some kind of melt down. Although it seems unlikely that anything worthwhile will come out of this meltdown, the difficulties for Christians trapped in the middle are terrible. There's something so terribly Medieval about all this - except that, in Medieval times, even during the Crusades, things never got so bad that Mass could not be said.

2 July 2014 at 19:25  
Blogger Albert said...

...in Mosul, that is.

2 July 2014 at 19:26  
Blogger Len said...

HJ , 18:31
Glad you like it....

2 July 2014 at 19:49  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Len, well it is what all Christians believe!

2 July 2014 at 20:00  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Albert @ 19:22

I think the reasoning goes like this:

Christians deny evolution.

Cranmer is a Christian.

Cranmer must deny evolution.

QED.

2 July 2014 at 20:12  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Well ...

Consistent Christians deny evolution -or more specifically that like produces unlike. Call it what you will. This idea of formation through random process is materialist dogma and no part science.

Inconsistent Christianity tries to harmonize the two.

carl

2 July 2014 at 20:18  
Blogger Preacher said...

Andrew White is a humble, wonderful example of a Christian.
His future in the medical world was assured, but he gave it up to serve the Lord.
Suffering from MS he was appointed to one of the most dangerous Cities in the Middle East, Where he has loved & cared for his flock with courage & devotion.
He even set up a medical centre that cared for the sick of all & no faiths.
He has earned the respect of the Mullahs & other Islamic leaders in the vicinity of St Georges for his love & care of all, not just in the spiritual, but practically as well, feeding the hungry of the area irrespective of their faith.

We can learn a lot from him about what it is to be a follower of Christ. Please support him in every way, prayer & finance we must do all we can.

Evil men have been in this World since Cain killed his brother Abel, they can only be changed from the inside. When Christ enters their hearts & releases them from the Cancer of sin that is destroying their bodies, minds & souls.
Andrew White has proved it again & again. We must emulate him as he emulates Christ.
The battle belongs to the Lord.

2 July 2014 at 20:24  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Carl @ 20:18

My point was less about evolution than about Sidney D's tendency to generalise.

How about his other contention? Christians are Christians only because they were taught to be by their parents.

2 July 2014 at 20:35  
Blogger Jay Bee said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

2 July 2014 at 20:40  
Blogger Albert said...

Carl,

This idea of formation through random process is materialist dogma and no part science.

It is a materialist dogma, but only because it fails to notice that metaphysically what may appear random to us, would not be random to the creator and sustainer of the entire universe.

There's nothing inconsistent about accepting the evidence for evolution and being a Christian. Your problem only arises if you place God and the created order on the same ontological level, such that divine and created agency can only be in conflict with each other. But this contradicts the biblical doctrine of God, and renders the incarnation impossible.

2 July 2014 at 20:41  
Blogger Jay Bee said...

I agree with Jack that the West might become involved to protect oil supplies. At the moment the US is arming the Iraqis and some Syrian rebel proxies while the Russians have sold 1970's vintage jets to Iraq.

The US has just sent another 400 hellfire missiles to Iraq. This risks pouring petrol on a bonfire over which they have no control. On hearing of this latest peace initiative the Middle East Peace Envoy was rumoured to have muttered "things can only get better." And if Syria/Iraq wern't enough we now hear of escalating tit for tat murders between the Israelis and Palestinians.

2 July 2014 at 21:01  
Blogger Len said...

I was' taught to be a Christian' by my parents and went through the whole 'Christianizing process 'Christened confirmed etc..
But becoming bored and disillusioned with religion I then gave the whole Christian thing up in my teens and became an atheist..
I became aggressively anti Christian (much as atheists today)
It was only later that I started searching for spiritual truth that I looked into Buddhism, oriental mystery religions new age etc (I can tell you now (with hindsight)that I was being drawn by the Holy Spirit who must have protected me from these false religions.
The truth about Jesus Christ came from a revelation given to me not from' head knowledge' but from a spirit to spirit contact...I now know the truth because I know the person Jesus Christ..
This is not about religion but having contact with the Life giving Spirit which is Jesus Christ....
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam,(Jesus Christ) a life-giving spirit.(1Corinthians 15;45)

2 July 2014 at 21:19  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Carl
"This idea of formation through random process is materialist dogma and no part science."

Jack echoes what Albert said. Who says what we perceive as being a random process in the material world isn't permitted or initiated by God? Plus, Jack recalls Albert (or maybe Old Jim) saying randomness presupposes order. Science and faith are not in conflict here.

2 July 2014 at 21:30  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Len, even Paul understood his interdependence with fellow disciples, notwithstanding his encounter with the risen Christ.

Saul the convert needed the support and encouragement of the Church and was a member of the family of God. Ananias was instructed by Jesus to lay his hands on Paul and he was thus filled with the Holy Spirit. He also spent some time with other disciples after his Baptism by water into the Body of Christ.

Membership of the Church - i.e. Christ's visible Body - and a living relationship with Christ, are not in contradiction with one another.

Indeed, it's the way its meant to be!

2 July 2014 at 21:48  
Blogger Albert said...

Jack,

Exactly. Atheism is presupposed in Carl's view - it's just waiting to be discovered.

2 July 2014 at 22:17  
Blogger IanCad said...

"God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind;---"

Genesis 1:24

And, to quote Carl :

Like does not produce unlike.

I like that. Sounds better than evolution, or intelligent design - Evolution light.

2 July 2014 at 22:35  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

IanCad, well of course God created the physical world and Angels and ourselves as spiritual beings - and He keeps us in existence.

God's not like us, you know. There's no distinction between thought and action; no sequences. He just is and all His attributes and actions are coterminous - outside of time and space.

There is and can be no contradiction between science and our Christian faith.

3 July 2014 at 00:48  
Blogger Manfarang said...

There is a precedent.
In 1891, a Catholic priest, Father Joseph Ohrwalder escaped from captivity in Sudan. Later, in 1895, the erstwhile Governor of Darfur, Rudolf von Slatin, managed to escape from the Khalifa's prison. Besides providing vital intelligence on the Mahdist dispositions, both men wrote detailed accounts of their experiences in Sudan. Written in collaboration with Reginald Wingate, a proponent of the reconquest of Sudan, both works emphasized the savagery and barbarism of the Mahdists.
Mrs Proudie will provide you with more details.

3 July 2014 at 03:37  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

A far higher award awaits this truly great man. Since what Peter Hitchens calls 'The Blair Creature' knighted Mick Jagger the title seems rather debased. But some kind of recognition seems timeley. A peerage perhaps? But then I read in a Christian Medical Fellowship briefing about the assisted suicide bill that the house of Lords has been packed with secularists recently.

A Muslim cleric, I think the name may have been Sheik Taquiyah bin Hudnah or something, was on the radio 4 'prayer for the day' spot at 5.45 this morning telling us how the kidnapping of 200 schoolgirls in Nigeria was nothing to do with the Beloved Prophet of Islam. The fellow even mentioned The Prophet's wife Aisha who was apparently famed for her learning. That's not what I heard. We aren't half being spun some yarns by the BBC.

3 July 2014 at 06:34  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

PS Deane's pitiable interjectionnhas already been adequstely answered so I'll add nothing beyond noting that (honourable exceptions like Dreadnaught excepted) many atheist posters seem to respond to concerns about the jihadist Muhammaden revival by going into full Dawkinist 'ner ner ner science beats religion bronze age fairy tale ya boo' mode.

Its as if they really can't see that their beloved 'Enlightenment' and secular liberal values will be destroyed under Sharia.

Very odd, unless......Islam and atheism have a common origin.

3 July 2014 at 06:54  
Blogger The Gray Monk said...

Canon White is a wonderful example of Christianity in adversity. Should he be martyred for his efforts, it may at least awaken our ruling classes to the danger of having, to use the populist Vampirology term, invited the vampire into the house. Having done that, all safeguards fail.

It is interesting that the ISIS thuggery look to recreate the Bagdhad Caliphate destroyed by the Mongol invasions of the late 1200s. It was that invasion, and the fate of the Caliph himself at their hands that sent Islam tumbling into its fundamentalist state.

My prayers are with Canon White and all Christians (and others) forced to live under the heel of Islam and its murderous Sharia laws. These ISIS thugs are likely to trigger a global conflict and I suspect our leaders know this but don't know how to prevent it, or deal with it. In the meantime, like Chamberlain's contemporaries they do deals and appease emerging with their worthless pieces of paper to wave proclaiming "Peace in our time".

A pox on all their houses!

3 July 2014 at 07:16  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

@ The Gray Monk
Where are we going to find a Churchill in this day and age? He'd be arrested for Islamophobia as soon as he opened his mouth.

3 July 2014 at 07:40  
Blogger Albert said...

Like does not produce unlike.

In addition to HJ's comment, I would say that this is not a terribly helpful comment, because it is so imprecise. Evolution functions by like producing like. What prohibits it, is an unbroken series of identical producing identical. But no one thinks creatures function that way.

3 July 2014 at 08:37  
Blogger Len said...

Like produces like.. a fish does not become a horse.
There may be 'adjustments'' within a species but that`s about it where ' evolution ' is concerned..
Atheists have always attacked 'Genesis' because the know that if the can destroy the foundations of God`s Word the whole Bible is discredited and becomes a fairy tale..
Lets not us Christians assist atheists in this...

3 July 2014 at 09:06  
Blogger Albert said...

Len,

No one is claiming a fish becomes a horse. The claim is that there are minor adjustments, as you say.

Evolution is not an attack on Genesis as traditionally understood. It's only modernist Christians who have that problem.

3 July 2014 at 09:11  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Augustine observed that God had built a self-developmental element into Nature.

3 July 2014 at 09:48  
Blogger Preacher said...

Ladies & Gentlemen, please stick to the thread & don't encourage the trolls to make mischief & wander off sniggering because they achieved their silly plan to divert your attention from Dr Cranmer's posting.

Blessings. P.

3 July 2014 at 10:03  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Actually, the troll in question did make one relevant contribution to the topic: the only difference between Islam and Christianity is geographical location.

In which case, one might wonder why the Canon is in danger of his life.

3 July 2014 at 10:10  
Blogger Albert said...

Explorer @0948,

And Augustine's reasons for thinking that? Exegesis of Genesis.

3 July 2014 at 10:36  
Blogger Albert said...

Preacher,

please stick to the thread & don't encourage the trolls to make mischief & wander off sniggering because they achieved their silly plan to divert your attention from Dr Cranmer's posting.

Why?

3 July 2014 at 10:36  
Blogger Preacher said...

Albert.
I thought I had already explained why!.

3 July 2014 at 10:45  
Blogger Albert said...

Preacher, the issue is interesting, so what's the problem? Of course, you might say the the problem is that the post is so serious that we should only talk about that. But actually, the issue is so serious that there is little anyone can say. Obviously, we all condemn what is being done to the Christians in Iraq and applaud Andrew White. Beyond that, all that is to be said would be to set out various positions on Islam. And frankly, all those positions hardly need that.

3 July 2014 at 11:08  
Blogger Preacher said...

Albert.
So what is the point of encouraging trolls who are not contributing on the topic to muddy the waters & return later & probably bring their friends (if they have any)? it's like listening to static on the radio.

3 July 2014 at 11:26  
Blogger Busy Mum said...

Sidney Deane - peer-reviewed scientific papers.
If I want to persuade the rest of the world that my opinion is correct, I would only ask for reviews from those that agree with me.
Scientists have a vested interest in persuading people that evolution is true; their power trip is only sustainable if people don't believe in God.
Goebbels said something like truth is the enemy of the lie, therefore the lie can only be maintained for as long as truth is suppressed; why else do you think evolutionists are so desperate to keep Creation out of the classroom and to elevate their unproved theory to factual science? If they are so confident in their version of the truth, they should have nothing to fear from rational debate!

3 July 2014 at 12:14  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

There is a future of persecution and death. And still we complain about our little problems. The Church conquered Rome. The Church conquers China. The Church can conquer Islam. The West may be old and spent, but the West is not the Church. God is not sitting in His heaven wringing his hands as if to say "What shall I do now?" Instead he watches carefully to make sure his word is fulfilled.

Amen, Carl. Canon White's witness is that of Paul's:

"I want you to know, brothers, that what has happened to me has really served to advance the gospel, so that it has become known throughout the whole imperial guard and to all the rest that my imprisonment is for Christ. And most of the brothers, having become confident in the Lord by my imprisonment, are much more bold to speak the word without fear." (Philippians 1:12-14)

For us:

"In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood." (Hebrews 12:4)

3 July 2014 at 12:59  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

3 July 2014 at 12:59  
Blogger Albert said...

Preacher,

So what is the point of encouraging trolls who are not contributing on the topic to muddy the waters & return later & probably bring their friends (if they have any)? it's like listening to static on the radio.

You're committing the genetic fallacy. Just because the provenance of the topic on this thread is questionable, does not mean the topic is not important. And if Sidney Deane comes back and finds some of his misapprehensions about Christianity are corrected, what's the problem? As St Paul says "What does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And in this I rejoice. Yes, and I continue to rejoice."

3 July 2014 at 13:18  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Rambling Steve
"Very odd, unless......Islam and atheism have a common origin."

They do.

Preacher, Happy Jack tends to agree with you and yet ....

The attack on God's sovereignty by Dawkins and his ilk actually serves to diminish the West's responses to the persecuted Church in the middle east.

Jack read that Archbishop Rowan Williamson was told by a senior Labour Minister - a senior Labour Minister - that if Christians went marching in to the Middle East to preach the Gospel of Christ then what did they expect? An astonishing comment but reflective of a dismissiveness towards faith at the top levels of our political elite.

The Christian dispute about literal or analogical interpretations of Genesis is important in so far as if Christians are seen to reject all science about the Universe then they can be attacked as fringe fundamentalists.

Jack does not know how God works in nature. Does anyone? Scripture reveals He is in control. He will say this, the more science discovers about man -his social, physical and psychological makeup - the more the awesome the nature of God's creation becomes and the less likely random, undirected events become as an explanation. And that's to say nothing about first causes.

An attack on Christianity that dismisses it as a 'fairy tale' is an attack on Canon White, his brave ministry and those he is shepherding.

3 July 2014 at 13:34  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

And what a promise made to those such as Canon White and other Christians:

"Happy are:

the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

the peacemakers: for they shall be called sons of God.

they that have been persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

ye when men shall reproach you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets that were before you."

3 July 2014 at 14:09  
Blogger Len said...

Albert@3 July 2014 13:18

' And if Sidney Deane comes back and finds some of his misapprehensions about Christianity are corrected'


Oh the irony... that`s what the Reformers have been doing since Oct. 31, 1517 at least!..

3 July 2014 at 15:11  
Blogger Manfarang said...

AnonymousinBelfast
"The Church conquers China"
There are more Muslims in China than Christians.

3 July 2014 at 17:07  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Busy Mum: "Goebbels said something like truth is the enemy of the lie, therefore the lie can only be maintained for as long as truth is suppressed; why else do you think evolutionists are so desperate to keep Creation out of the classroom and to elevate their unproved theory to factual science? If they are so confident in their version of the truth, they should have nothing to fear from rational debate!"

Surely it's about keeping Creationism out of science classrooms, rather than out of any classroom in the school? Science lessons should be about the physical sciences, and the philosophy of science. The theory of evolution by natural selection is a working assumption for me but I'm quite happy for Creationism to be covered in religious education classrooms. Why wouldn't I be?

3 July 2014 at 18:46  
Blogger Jay Bee said...

Manfarang@17:07

There are more Muslims in China than Christians.

Really. I don't think so.
Got any reliable statistics?

3 July 2014 at 18:53  
Blogger IanCad said...

Jay Bee

You're right. Muslims are about 2%, Christians about double and growing fast.
Historically Christianity has been very important to the Chinese.
The Taiping Rebellion was a Christian uprising, which, had we British not interfered, may well have succeeded.

3 July 2014 at 20:21  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

IanCad

"The Taiping Rebellion was a Christian uprising, which, had we British not interfered, may well have succeeded."

Oh dear! A Christian uprising! Please!

The Taiping Rebellion was a millenarian movement led by Hong Xiuquan, an unstable man who received "visions" which he later "interpreted" as telling him he was the actual younger brother of Jesus. He based this on reading some evangelical tracts. He attempted to establish the "Taiping Heavenly Kingdom" over southern China, with himself as the "Heavenly King" and self-proclaimed brother of Jesus Christ.

In the ensuing civil war against the Quing Dynasty, 20 million people died; 600 cities were destroyed; and millions were executed.

It set the advance of Christianity back by generations in China.

3 July 2014 at 20:44  
Blogger IanCad said...

Sounds a bit like Augustine of Hippo then HJ?

3 July 2014 at 21:31  
Blogger Albert said...

Len,

that`s what the Reformers have been doing since Oct. 31, 1517 at least!..

Sometimes I wonder which Bible you are reading.

3 July 2014 at 21:43  
Blogger Albert said...

Busy mum,

evolutionists are so desperate to keep Creation out of the classroom

I accept the evidence for evolution. I also believe in creation. It's not difficult. I don't think creationism is good theology, let alone science. For once, I agree with DanJ0.

3 July 2014 at 21:49  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

IanCad, Augustine of Hippo?

More like Mohammed, Happy Jack would say. If anything, the episode illustrates the dangers of the ill-informed misinterpreting the Bible based on personal revelation.

3 July 2014 at 22:40  
Blogger Shadrach said...

Happy Jack,
I am amazed at your apparent knowledge on all subjects. Do you refer to the web on all issues for your source? I would not blame you if you did and had the time. It certainly gives you an incredible air of superior knowledge.

I wonder just how many communicants are retired and over sixty. One sees them commenting all day long as if they have nothing better to do!

3 July 2014 at 23:38  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Shadrach,

*chuckle*

Yes, Jack is retired and enjoys furthering his knowledge. He knows a little about a lot of things.

4 July 2014 at 00:29  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Now Happy Jack has thought more IanCad, that Hong Xiuquan chap probably had a great deal in common with Ellen White, Joseph Bates and James White. Now what cult did they establish? Jack will remember soon.

Augustine of Hippo, indeed.

4 July 2014 at 02:15  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Jay Bee
There are no reliable statistics as religious practice is restricted in China. The claim that Christianity is rapidly increasing is fueled by outside organisations seeking funds.
The traditional Chinese religious beliefs are also reviving although a large number of people there profess no religious beliefs.

4 July 2014 at 04:38  
Blogger Ivan said...

HJ, usually these would be saviours fail the girl-tree test which they can never avoid shaking.

4 July 2014 at 05:09  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Ian Cad:

If you don't know 'Flashman and the Dragon', I recommend it for its racy account of the Taiping religion.

As HJ says, plus some!

4 July 2014 at 10:03  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Is Baghdad itself about to fall to Al-Baghdadi’s brand-new neo-Caliphate? That must be, at least, a possibility, and if it does, how long will Andrew White survive? He must be aware that, like other Christian leaders in Iraq, he risks being murdered at the head of his flock. A very brave man indeed.

4 July 2014 at 10:29  
Blogger Len said...

Albert,
Sometimes I wonder which Bible you are reading?

4 July 2014 at 10:41  
Blogger Albert said...

Len,

I'm reading a Bible that never says things like "We are justified by faith alone" or "scripture alone is formally sufficient." Is that the Bible you are reading?

4 July 2014 at 10:43  
Blogger Busy Mum said...

DanJO - religious education classrooms treat all religions as false. Science classrooms treat all science found therein as true. Therefore why should the theory of evolution be in the science classroom and Creation be in the RE classrooms when a lot of people believe it should be the other way round? To be totally fair, both 'faiths' should be in the same classroom - or not there at all.

4 July 2014 at 10:50  
Blogger Albert said...

Busy Mum,

religious education classrooms treat all religions as false

There are surely cases where that is true. To borrow from Fr Ronald Knox Comparative religion is an admirable recipe for making people comparatively religious. However, I don't expect all faith schools teach all religions as false. I doubt for example, that all Catholic schools do, nor all Muslims schools.

4 July 2014 at 11:26  
Blogger Preacher said...

Just to correct some illusions that have appeared, I don't consider that Christianity & Science are incompatible.

Evolution is STILL a theory! & I believe in a Creator & designer who's glory is reflected in the complexity of His creation & is endorsed daily by scientific discovery.

I have often spoken with people who believe in evolution & I will continue to do so.
But I believe that sometimes certain people who wish to create mischief, introduce the apparent topic of Creation v Evolution as a 'Red Herring' as they (Correctly it seems) believe that certain people will rise to the bait.
The original topic is lost & the originator shuffles off laughing at his/her success.

Just wanted to clarify the issue.

Blessings. P.

4 July 2014 at 12:00  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

Look!There's no Palestine on the map of this Caliphate! I wonder if the liberal left would as opposed to this Caliphate as it is to Israel?

4 July 2014 at 12:13  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

A few questions to learned floor here :

1.How is science a faith or have I missed something here?

2.how is 'creationism' (whatever that actually means) more credible than current science?

3. And why does current science, pose such a threat to religion anyhow?

4 July 2014 at 12:15  
Blogger Len said...

Albert are you reading a bible which approves; 1 . Prayers for the dead . -------------------……300 A.D.
2. Making the sign of the cross ………………………… …300 A.D.
3. Veneration of angels & dead saints …………---------…….375 A.D.
4. Use of images in worship………………………………… . 375 A.D.
5. The Mass as a daily celebration……………………………… 394 A.D.
6 Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term, "Mother of God" applied at Council of Ephesus .----------------------------------- 431 A.D.
7 Extreme Unction (Last Rites)……………………………… ..526 A.D.
8. Doctrine of Purgatory-Gregory 1…………………………… .593 A.D..
9. Prayers to Mary & dead saints ……………………………… .600 A.D.
10. Worship of cross, images & relics ……………………… … 786 A.D.
11 Canonization of dead saints ………………………………… ..995 A.D.
12. Celibacy of priesthood …………………………………… …1079 A.D.
13. The Rosary ……………………………………………… … 1090 A.D.
14. Indulgences ……………………………………………… …..1190 A.D.
15. Transubstantiation-Innocent III …………………………… 1215 A.D.
16. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest …………………… 1215 A.D.
17. Adoration of the wafer (Host)…………………………… .. 1220 A.D.
18. Cup forbidden to the people at communion …………………..1414 A.D.
19. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma……………………………..1439 A.D.
20. The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed …………….1439 A.D.
21 Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent…………………………………………----------------… 1545 A.D.
22. Apocryphal books added to Bible ………------------……….1546 A.D.
23. Immaculate Conception of Mary……………………………….1854 A.D.
24, Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals, proclaimed by the Vatican Council ……………… 1870 A.D.
25. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) ……………………………-----------------------------------……1950 A.D.
26. Mary proclaimed Mother of the Church……………………… 1965 A.D.

(Which Bible version would that be?)

4 July 2014 at 12:21  
Blogger Len said...

Albert,@ 10:43 you seem to be grasping at straws and making up a 'religion' which you presume I follow.

Please try and 'keep it real?'

4 July 2014 at 12:25  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

David Kavanagh said...

Look!There's no Palestine on the map of this Caliphate! I wonder if the liberal left would as opposed to this Caliphate as it is to Israel?


No Iran or Persia, either. It has just been merged into the Indian subcontinent, along with Tibet, Afghanistan and a number of other places. Does this mean that the ayatollahs now find themselves on the same side as Israel? How embarrassing for them.

4 July 2014 at 12:30  
Blogger Albert said...

Len,

It doesn't help matters that your historical dates are often flatly wrong. But in any case, none of this discussion matters, because even if everything you say there only works as an argument if sola scriptura is true. The trouble is that sola scriptura isn't in scripture, and more than that, it is a very late doctrine (in the form you Protestants use, it is early 16th Century). It's hard to see why I should be expected to accept it then, while not allowed to accept the other doctrines that don't undermine themselves.

4 July 2014 at 12:39  
Blogger bluedog said...

Uncle Brian @ 10.29 et al, it seems highly unlikely that the Sunni Caliphate can take largely Shi-ite Baghdad, particularly with Iranian defenders in place.

What is of particular interest is the US initiated clamp down on airport security, which follows Cameron's warning about a potential attack by ISIS on the UK. Does this mean that the security services are anticipating a repeat of 9/11? It would not surprise if this is the rationale for heightened security. Osama was a nobody until the attack on the Twin Towers made him a household name. Perhaps the Caliph Al-Baghdadi has been overheard declaring that an aviation spectacular killing thousands of Crusader-kuffars is the duty of all jihadis.

One would think that the obvious target would be somewhere like Dubai, or even Istanbul, rather than the more competently defended airports of Europe and the US.

Which takes us back to MH370. the more one reads about the problems being faced by China with its Muslim Uighur citizens in Sinkiang, where the Chinese have banned the celebration of Ramadan, the more it looks as though the Muslim pilot decided to kill his Chinese-kuffar payload by way of revenge.

4 July 2014 at 12:59  
Blogger IanCad said...

Len

You may be incorrect on number 21.
Trent established the Superiority of tradition over scripture.

4 July 2014 at 13:37  
Blogger IanCad said...

Uncle Brian.

You rightly bring us back to the thread.
A very brave man he is.
Let's hope that bluedog is right and that the Persians prevail.

4 July 2014 at 13:41  
Blogger Albert said...

IanCad,

Trent established the Superiority of tradition over scripture.

Would you provide the exact quotation?

4 July 2014 at 14:05  
Blogger Ars Hendrik said...

David Kavanagh @ 12:15

I'll have a go.

1.How is science a faith or have I missed something here?

Science is not a faith, though a 'belief' in science often is (e.g. when people accept a scientific principle without being able to discern its truth). Or, of course, when people say things like 'There are no truths outside of science', which is a literally incoherent statement.

2.How is 'creationism' (whatever that actually means) more credible than current science?

It entirely depends upon how you determine the meaning of the word 'creationism'. If you mean the earth is only as old as a literal interpretation of the Bible would seem to allow (less than 10,000 years), then it is definitely not more credible.

If you allow for a more reasonable interpretation of the word 'creation', then it can be applied to such demonstrable events such as the Big Bang and so on. It does not have to apply in a supernatural way, but straightforwardly, as in 'The Big Bang created the physical laws of the universe'.

3. And why does current science, pose such a threat to religion anyhow?

It really doesn't. Above (a long way above) I recommended John Lennox's excellent book 'God's Undertaker', which eloquently discussed this subject. Everyone on this blog should read it. Everyone.

4 July 2014 at 14:38  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

bluedog

That's an interesting hypothesis about MH370, but would the pilot have done it without any publicity? Without proclaiming or explaining his purpose?

I hope you're right about Baghdad's chances of holding out, but isn't it a mixed Sunni-Shiite population there? The Christians could be at risk from a pro-Caliphate faction within the walls, a fifth column, couldn't they?

Regards,
Brian

4 July 2014 at 14:44  
Blogger Len said...

IanCad,@13:37
I stand corrected sir.

4 July 2014 at 15:17  
Blogger Albert said...

Ars is correct. Lennox's book is excellent. Lennox is a Professor of Mathematics at Oxford, and also teaches Philosophy of Science. He is very well placed to help anyone get through the smoke-screen put up by some atheists, and weirdly supported by some Chrisatians

4 July 2014 at 15:23  
Blogger IanCad said...

Albert

It was at the seventeenth session at the Council of Trent that the Archbishop of Reggio claimed thus. By having the power to change the word of God, in respect to times and laws, logic would therefore prove the authority of the church over Holy Scripture.

Sola Scriptura was giving Rome fits. If Protestantism could be shown to not embrace, or appear to be inconsistent with the doctrine, then Rome could cite those actions to her favour. This is exactly what the good Archishop's address suggested.

Source:
History of The Council of Trent (L F Bungener) Page 298

4 July 2014 at 16:05  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

InaCad and Len, you have proved Happy Jack's very point.

Len produces a list of doctrines, no doubt copied from an anti-Catholic website, that he is opposed to without actually understanding what they entail. All he can offer is "they are not in Scripture" and yet, as Albert pointed out, this is an unscriptural position to hold.

Then along trots IanCad offering an unsubstantiated and, as it goes, entirely false statement about one item on the list. Len then accepts this uncritically - for no other apparent reason than its suits his purpose!

Unreal and illustrative of how untruths spread.

If you're really interested, (are you?) here is an English translation of Trent covering the point about Scripture and Tradition.

Do read it. It teaches the Church's position and explains it. In brief, the Church "receives and venerates with an equal affection of piety, and reverence" the Old and New Testament and "also the said traditions, as well those appertaining to faith as to morals, as having been dictated, either by Christ's own word of mouth, or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church by a continuous succession."

The rest of the Council of Trent is there too. Enjoy.

4 July 2014 at 16:19  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

IanCad
'History of The Council of Trent' by F Bungener? One Archbishop made such a claim, did he? Have you actually checked the source? The book is available on-line.

The book *academic study* opens stating it intent to reveal: "The pretentions of the Council of Trent, and its foolhardy heirs...", in order to: "make its fragility better known (and) labour more effectually towards its downfall." (Preface, page 3)

4 July 2014 at 16:39  
Blogger Albert said...

IanCad,

This was your claim:

Trent established the Superiority of tradition over scripture.

And I asked,

Would you provide the exact quotation?

And you replied,

It was at the seventeenth session at the Council of Trent that the Archbishop of Reggio claimed thus. By having the power to change the word of God, in respect to times and laws, logic would therefore prove the authority of the church over Holy Scripture.

The exact quotation, from the Council of Trent, was what I asked for. Not a quotation from a bishop (who may or may not have actually said what you said - and I think he did not say exactly what you said, he said), but the definition of the Council.

And then Happy Jack helpfully gave us the wording of the Council:

"receives and venerates with an equal affection of piety, and reverence" the Old and New Testament and "also the said traditions, as well those appertaining to faith as to morals, as having been dictated, either by Christ's own word of mouth, or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church by a continuous succession."

equal affection of piety is what it says. Equal, not superior. Equal in fact prevents superiority, does it not?

So it seems to me that you face two options: produce another text from Trent to defend your claim, or to withdraw your claim.

4 July 2014 at 17:43  
Blogger IanCad said...

Happy Jack

You're citing the 4th session. I'm referring to the 17th session which was held sixteen years later.

Given that the latter generally amends the former I would contend that the position held by Gaspare de Fosso would reflect that of his contemporaries more than those of the delagates half a generation prior.

I tried your link - thanks -but couldn't access the 17th session. Kept getting shifted to junk sites. My computer I'm sure.

No problem getting it in Latin.
Dosen't help me.

4 July 2014 at 17:52  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

IanCad, it's the final documents of Trent that count and not comments attributed to participants in the sessions.

On April 8, 1546, the Council of Trent in its Fourth Session on Scripture and Tradition definitively decreed:

“This truth and rule [of the Gospel] are contained in written books and [et] in unwritten
traditions.”


With this dogmatic statement, Trent affirmed that the Gospel (i.e. revelation) is contained in both Scripture and Tradition, in contradistinction to the Protestant position that it is
contained in Scripture alone.

The original draft of the decree stated: “This truth [of the Gospel] is contained partly [partim] in written books, partly [partim] in unwritten traditions.” The
Council Fathers changed the "partim-partim" formulation to a simple "et" in the final decree.

4 July 2014 at 18:37  
Blogger Albert said...

IanCad,

You're citing the 4th session. I'm referring to the 17th session which was held sixteen years later.

So quote it then, if it is so helpful to your cause. You can read it here:

http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch17.htm

Given that the latter generally amends the former

Not in Church Councils. What has been decreed is binding. All that can happen is a clarification. But "equal" cannot be clarified by "superior".

I would contend that the position held by Gaspare de Fosso would reflect that of his contemporaries more than those of the delagates half a generation prior.

Your contention is false, but even if it were true, you need to cite the Council to defend your claim (if you can).

4 July 2014 at 18:42  
Blogger IanCad said...

Happy Jack

What was written does not square with positions held at the later sessions.

Neither does it jibe with RC statements on authority.

Scripture cannot be equal to traditions that contradict the plain writings of scripture.

The one must be superior to the other.

Ian

4 July 2014 at 18:45  
Blogger IanCad said...

Sorry Albert

Missed your post.
Will get back later.
We both know where this is going.

Ian

4 July 2014 at 18:47  
Blogger Albert said...

IanCad,

We both know where this is going.

Something tells me we will be discussion the Sabbath before long. I wonder what Len will think of that!!

What was written does not square with positions held at the later sessions.

We're still waiting for a defence of such claims.

Scripture cannot be equal to traditions that contradict the plain writings of scripture. The one must be superior to the other.

Well, given your failure to prove that is the Catholic faith, I can only conclude you are referring to human traditions which contradict scripture, like, sola fide and sola scriptura.

Am I on the right lines? I hope so, we can then get down discussing things like the Sabbath - how about it Len?

4 July 2014 at 18:53  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

Ars,

That is pretty much my view as well, or at least the sentiment is, so thanks for that.

Uncle Brian,

Does anyone know who made this map up? Where do they get the names for these states?

4 July 2014 at 19:08  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

Albert,

"Something tells me we will be discussion the Sabbath before long"

Yes, have a good one.. Shabbat Shalom!

4 July 2014 at 19:10  
Blogger Albert said...

Shabbat Shalom to you too, David!

4 July 2014 at 19:17  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

4 July 2014 at 19:25  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

Albert,

Thank you, much appreciated.

4 July 2014 at 19:27  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

Oh and btw, I did ask my Anglican Catholic Cousin about what he believed about this and he said that 'The Jewish covenant was never broken, but fulfilled with Jesus, but that Jews are still eternally bound by it, that works cannot earn salvation, that salvation by grace alone received through faith, that nothing can add to the sole mediatorship of the cross of christ and that holy scripture, tradition and reason are the supreme authority in doctrine'. That seems pretty much like mainstream Christianity to an outsider, but they are often called heretics by others. Heaven knows why.

4 July 2014 at 19:28  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Good question, David. Only His Grace, I suspect, will be in a position to give us the answer.

In the meantime, Shabbat Shalom and sof shevuah tov!

4 July 2014 at 19:30  
Blogger Albert said...

David,

that salvation by grace alone received through faith

If he's an Anglo-catholic, I'm surprised to hear him say that.

4 July 2014 at 19:31  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Busy Mum: "DanJO - religious education classrooms treat all religions as false."

I doubt that's actually true. I'd be happy for religious education classes to simply teach the details of various religions and leave any associated claims of truth unchallenged.

"Science classrooms treat all science found therein as true."

I don't think one can go far wrong in a science classroom explaining the importance of observation, repetition, and falsifiability to science.

"Therefore why should the theory of evolution be in the science classroom and Creation be in the RE classrooms when a lot of people believe it should be the other way round?"

The theory of evolution by natural selection is a scientific theory, albeit limited in terms of overall testability. It's quite a different thing to Creationism, not least in that the theory is nominally falsifiable.

"To be totally fair, both 'faiths' should be in the same classroom - or not there at all."

If a science teacher is teaching that a theory is true then they need to be retrained. Scientific theories are almost always the product of inductive reasoning, and a science teacher really ought to understand what that implies. Of course, teaching philosophy of science to younger children is not really appropriate, but it needs to be taught at some stage.

You know, I don't really mind if the statement is made in a science lesson that there are alternative explanations for what we see around us, including Creationism for the totality of it if that seems appropriate at the time, as long as things like the scientific method are explained and understood to set the context for the contents of the lesson.

4 July 2014 at 19:39  
Blogger IanCad said...

Albert,

Thanks for the link but it seems to steer to the introduction, not the full transcript.

I did have it bookmarked and foolishly - being Scots - lost it when I tried to save a few groats when upgrading from XP by doing it myself. What I saved disappeared.

The day is closing and I have no appetite at present to challenge your - and HJ's - sharp minds.
We went well over three hundred last time.
I'll see what transpires later in the thread.

Shabbat Shalom to all.

4 July 2014 at 20:03  
Blogger Albert said...

IanCad,

Thanks for the link but it seems to steer to the introduction, not the full transcript.

No, it's right. That is the decree of the Council of Trent, session 17. That's it. There's no transcript because the transcript does not form any part of the decree.

Now this was your claim:

Trent established the Superiority of tradition over scripture.

You told us to look in session 17, but as you can see Trent says no such thing. Your reference to a speech by de Fosso leads me to think that what you have in mind is this speech:

Such is the condition of the heretics of this age that on nothing do they rely more than that, under the pretense of the word of God, they overthrow the authority of the church; as though the church, His body, could be opposed to the word of Christ, or the head to the body. On the contrary, the authority of the church, then, is illustrated most clearly by the Scriptures; for while on the one hand she recommends them, declares them to be divine, [col. 530] offers them to us to be read, in doubtful matters explains them faithfully, and condemns whatever is contrary to them; on the other hand, the legal precepts in the Scriptures taught by the Lord have ceased by virtue of the same authority. The Sabbath, the most glorious day in the law, has been changed into the Lord’s day. Circumcision, enjoined upon Abraham and his seed under such threatening that he who had not been circumcised would be destroyed from among his people, has been so abrogated that the apostle asserts: "If ye be circumcised, ye have fallen from grace, and Christ shall profit you nothing." These and other similar matters have not ceased by virtue of Christ’s teaching (for He says He has come to fulfill the law, not to destroy it), but they have been changed by the authority of the church. Indeed, if she should be removed (since there must be heresies), who would set forth truth, and confound the obstinacy of heretics? All things will be confused, and soon heresies condemned by her authority will spring up again.

But that says nothing at all about tradition. It simply speaks of the authority exercised by the Church of the Apostles in biblical times.

4 July 2014 at 20:30  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Albert, Jack will make one final point and then leave the debate there.

Vatican I restated Trent's definition. Vatican II, in “Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation”, in Article 9, addressed this:

"Hence Sacred Tradition and Scripture are bound together in a close and reciprocal relationship. They both flow from the same divine wellspring, merge together to some extent, and are on course towards the same end. . . .

The Church’s certainty about all that is revealed is not drawn from Holy Scripture alone; both Scripture and Tradition are to be accepted and honoured with like devotion and reverence. Tradition and Scripture together form a single sacred deposit of the Word of God, entrusted to the Church."

4 July 2014 at 20:37  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

Albert,

Ah well, as my cousin and family (including his daughter Louise) are guests tonight, I did put this to him. He was good for a few double Scotches already, pouring another generous helping of my malt, which he downed in one gulp, winked at me, whipped out a cigarette and said with gleeful look 'Ah old chap, I'm Anglican, doctrine isn't our strong point, so I can believe what I bloody well like, even it is makes no sense!' and he lit his cigarette.

Oh and Happy Jack will be pleased to know I shall be asking Louise about this penny catch later on!

Now I REALLY must go. Have a good one.

4 July 2014 at 20:48  
Blogger Albert said...

Quite, Happy Jack, and I defy any Christian to object to what Trent says:

also the traditions, whether they relate to faith or to morals, as having been dictated either orally by Christ or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church in unbroken succession.

The opposition presumably arises from the "by the Holy Ghost". When was this given and through whom? The clue is the expression "unbroken succession" which implies the content given by the Holy Ghost was given through the apostles. And this is what the Council clearly means, for the previous paragraphs said:

This [Gospel], of old promised through the Prophets in the Holy Scriptures,[1] our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, promulgated first with His own mouth, and then commanded it to be preached by His Apostles to every creature[2] as the source at once of all saving truth and rules of conduct.

It also clearly perceives that these truths and rules are contained in the written books and in the unwritten traditions, which, received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ Himself, or from the Apostles themselves,[3] the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down to us, transmitted as it were from hand to hand.


The only way to deny this teaching is to set human (and not apostolic) tradition above scripture. For scripture says:

Stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Thus, he who condemns Trent's decree on this point, condemns scripture. He he who condemns scripture, sets up a tradition above scripture. So he who condemns Trent on this point, isn't just wrong, but actually contradictory. And since a contradiction conveys no information whatsoever, it follows that person has no position on scripture and tradition.

4 July 2014 at 20:52  
Blogger Albert said...

David,

He's certainly an Anglican! Blessings for the Sabbath!

4 July 2014 at 20:53  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Albert, one final, final comment.

The doctrine on the precise relationship and dynamic between Scripture and Tradition is open to different interpretations that have not been entirely settled by the Church since Trent.

Jack thought you'd enjoy reading this thesis from a Master's student. This is not to invite further comment on this thread but is for your interest.

5 July 2014 at 01:33  
Blogger Albert said...

Thank you, Jack.

5 July 2014 at 15:56  

Post a Comment

<< Home

Newer›  ‹Older